13-07-2003 04:57									#61
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Indeed, but when a teacher presents their views as fact, especially considering that they are in a position to give people "facts", then I find that unacceptable.

True. The first thing that should be taught in a Social Science class is that it's not Science. It's mostly opinion, and teacher doesn't necessarily have the best opinion. Everyone should form their own.

	13-07-2003 04:59									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman i see how taking hawaii was definately wrong, but im glad we did. Im also glad for Manifest Destiny, despite how 'wrong' that was.

How can you be glad when you do something wrong?

	13-07-2003 05:05									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious How can you be glad when you do something wrong?

It's the conservative credo.

	13-07-2003 05:50									#64
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quote: You are the one that needs to explore other things besides right wing propaganda.

I'm sure that Mr. Marx and and Mr. Engles would be pleased to know that they are right wing propaganda... especially Das Capital... damn, those evil right wingers and their talk of revolution .

I also guess I should place a call to the New Republic, which I read online quite frequently.

Damn a lot of places to inform that they are 'right wing propaganda'

Loewen is a liberal, yes... but just like che is a liberal. Though don't tell che I called him a liberal .

--

Anyway, I was at the mall and saw Zinn's book, and flipped through it. Interesting stuff in the 'Afterword' and Chapter 23 (which is something like 'Coming of the Guards' or something). Zinn acknowledges that the book is not written with objectivity and his prejudices have colored his book, AND, in the book itself, he expresses hope for a peoples' uprising! And all these people getting all made when I called him a Communism... funny that.

	13-07-2003 06:01									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You are the one that needs to explore other things besides right wing propaganda. I'm sure that Mr. Marx and and Mr. Engles would be pleased to know that they are right wing propaganda... especially Das Capital... damn, those evil right wingers and their talk of revolution . I also guess I should place a call to the New Republic, which I read online quite frequently. Damn a lot of places to inform that they are 'right wing propaganda' Loewen is a liberal, yes... but just like che is a liberal. Though don't tell che I called him a liberal . -- Anyway, I was at the mall and saw Zinn's book, and flipped through it. Interesting stuff in the 'Afterword' and Chapter 23 (which is something like 'Coming of the Guards' or something). Zinn acknowledges that the book is not written with objectivity and his prejudices have colored his book, AND, in the book itself, he expresses hope for a peoples' uprising! And all these people getting all made when I called him a Communism... funny that.

You have a sexy tongue -- you should use it for other purposes.

	13-07-2003 06:02									#66
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Sorry Mr. Fun, I swing the other way .

	13-07-2003 06:04									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Sorry Mr. Fun, I swing the other way .

That's ok if you're straight -- no one is perfect.

	13-07-2003 06:09									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Loewen is a liberal, yes... but just like che is a liberal. Though don't tell che I called him a liberal .

Che is a communist. Your'e very confused.

	13-07-2003 06:10									#69
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quote: Che is a communist.

He is also a liberal. Seeing as you call Fascists 'conservatives', I can call Communists 'liberals'.

	13-07-2003 06:25									#70
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Man, this thread degenerates into another left/right flame war. Who'd have thought it?

	13-07-2003 06:27									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Che is a communist. He is also a liberal. Seeing as you call Fascists 'conservatives', I can call Communists 'liberals'.

You can't call communists liberals anymore than you can call liberals communists. Its not right, and you are going to piss people off. I don't really recall calling fascists conservatives, but if I did you have a point.

	13-07-2003 06:28									#72
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I seems to recall you going the other way... calling conservatives Fascists (neo-Fascist is the basically same thing).

And oh no, I'm going to piss people off! Boo hoo!

	13-07-2003 06:34									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I seems to recall you going the other way... calling conservatives Fascists (neo-Fascist is the basically same thing). And oh no, I'm going to piss people off! Boo hoo!

You have to give me specifics, because some Fascists hide behind the label of conservative. Just like some mods, uh I mean people here hide behind the label of liberal.

	13-07-2003 06:35									#74
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quote: because some Fascists hide behind the label of conservative.

Oh really? Like who?

	13-07-2003 06:36									#75
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Imran, you're a fascist!

Actually, I had Fez admitting he was before he left.

	13-07-2003 06:40									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: because some Fascists hide behind the label of conservative. Oh really? Like who?

I don't even want to say, because you will want specifics and I can't remember any. Generally, when capitalist start taking anit-democratic stances I call them Fascists, and they are.

edit: I consider Albert Speer and Fez Fascists and there are others I'm sure.

	13-07-2003 06:40									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: because some Fascists hide behind the label of conservative. Oh really? Like who?

Reagan
Limbaugh
Ashcroft
Fez
Bodds
Albert Speer

	13-07-2003 06:47									#78
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Kid: Odin's first three on his list proves it my point in dealing with most lefties on this site.

quote: Generally, when capitalist start taking anit-democratic stances I call them Fascists, and they are.

So you just think that Fascists are capitalists who are totalitarian? And you want me to read more?

	13-07-2003 06:50									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Kid: Odin's first three on his list proves it my point in dealing with most lefties on this site. quote: Generally, when capitalist start taking anit-democratic stances I call them Fascists, and they are. So you just think that Fascists are capitalists who are totalitarian? And you want me to read more?

That's what a fascist is. What did you think it was?

edit: I would change totalitarian with authoritarian though.

	13-07-2003 06:58									#80
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quote: That's what a fascist is. What did you think it was? edit: I would change totalitarian with authoritarian though.

Read some Mussolini or Barres please.

Fascism is more corporatist than capitalist. It believes in the state controlling production mostly by getting business and labor together and hammering out production amounts and wages.

It also strongly emphasizes the state as the unifying force. Everyone is the same in the nation, and there is one leader who everyone looks up to and is the apex of the state.

In a sense Fascism is also radical for it looks to destroy those traditional notions that don't fit the idea that unity under the state is the ultimate goal. Everything is brought under heel, including traditions. At the same time it has some conservatism in it, dealing with national myths and legends.

As for changing totalitarianism to authoritarianism, you lose the basic element of Fascism when you do that.

	13-07-2003 07:04									#81
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The Chinese reserve the 19th level of hell for bad teachers.

	13-07-2003 07:14									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui As for changing totalitarianism to authoritarianism, you lose the basic element of Fascism when you do that.

No you don't. You just have less extreme fascism. There is no one type of fascism just like there is not one type of communism. Communism is in general community ownership of the means of production. You can have all kinds of different specifics to go with that. Similarly, Fascism is generally undemocratic capitalism. You can have different specifics on that and different extremes too. If Mussolini would have allowed the Italian people to have a little more freedom would you call him democratic. Hell no. He would still be a Fascist, because Fascism is a relative term.

	13-07-2003 08:51									#83
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quote: No you don't. You just have less extreme fascism. There is no one type of fascism just like there is not one type of communism. Communism is in general community ownership of the means of production.

You have absolutely no idea what Fascism is, do you?

The single leader who transcends all is a PRIMARY tenant of Fascism. The individual must be alienated and made to feel that only by joining with the leader and the state will his life be complete. The leader is in charge of all groups. He transcends all other affiliations. The leader is looked up to by all. Without that, you don't have Fascism. A plethora of leaders dilutes the power of the state over the individual. The individual does not have the one leader necessary to transcend the created alienation. There is not the one voice with which the state is unified.

Is there any other reason why every Fascist society has the 'leader'?

quote: Fascism is generally undemocratic capitalism.

Again, you do not understand Fascism in the slightest. It is an entirely anti-individualist philosophy. That makes it hard at best to fit nicely with capitalism, which is originally an individualist philosophy. Fascism rails against liberalism, which is the dominant force in bringing capitalism.

To say that Fascism is undemocratic capitalism is being simplistic. It would be like saying Musharraf is a Fascist. Or 1910 Germany was Fascist. Or Suharto (of Indonesia) was a Fascist. Your definition leads to incredibly dumb results.

As the dictionary (American Heritage Dictionary) states:

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Though I'd make it "or racism", since Mussolini's or Franco's or Pinochet's Fascist states do not seem to be racist.

	13-07-2003 09:02									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Though I'd make it "or racism", since Mussolini's or Franco's or Pinochet's Fascist states do not seem to be racist.

Ha! Look at what you posted. It's a relative term. You even say so here.

Look, you can either be democratic, and support democratic principles, or you can be fascist, and not support democratic principles. If you aren't totalitarian fascist it doesn't mean that you are democratic. If you're not communist or democratic then you are a fascist.

	13-07-2003 09:13									#85
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quote: If you're not communist or democratic then you are a fascist.

This is basic Political Theory 101! Dictatorship does NOT equal Fascism! This leads to idiotic comments like William the Conquerer and Louis XIV was a Fascist!

It only proves that you are totally out of your gourd when talking about Fascism, because you have no clue what it is!

quote: It's a relative term. You even say so here.

Where did I say it was a relative term? I said it can either have belligerant nationalism or racism... how does that make the term relative?

quote: If you aren't totalitarian fascist it doesn't mean that you are democratic.

Of course! If you aren't totalitarian Fascist, then you can simply be a Dictatorship, a Junta, a Monarchy, etc. There aren't only three political systems in the world!

	13-07-2003 09:24									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If you're not communist or democratic then you are a fascist. This is basic Political Theory 101! Dictatorship does NOT equal Fascism! This leads to idiotic comments like William the Conquerer and Louis XIV was a Fascist!

Louis XIV was a monarch. There's a difference. Fascism gives the government greater control over the economy, but it doesn't require that the govt take TOTAL control.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's a relative term. You even say so here. Where did I say it was a relative term? I said it can either have belligerant nationalism or racism... how does that make the term relative?

You want to define fascism the way it existed only in Italy. That would be an absolute definition of the word. Unfortunately, fascism exists differently than that. That's why it is a relative term. To use your example, a fascist can be racist or not.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If you aren't totalitarian fascist it doesn't mean that you are democratic. Of course! If you aren't totalitarian Fascist, then you can simply be a Dictatorship, a Junta, a Monarchy, etc. There aren't only three political systems in the world!

Is there such a thing as a Dictatorist? No, we call them fascists.

	13-07-2003 09:35									#87
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quote: Louis XIV was a monarch. There's a difference. Fascism gives the government greater control over the economy, but it doesn't require that the govt take TOTAL control.

You contradicted yourself. You said there was only democracy, communism, and fascism (putting aside the fact that communism and democracy can co-exist in the same state). How does monarchy suddenly arise?

Also, it requires a lot of control over the economy... to prevent corporations from exploiting the nation's workers.

quote: You want to define fascism the way it existed only in Italy. That would be an absolute definition of the word. Unfortunately, fascism exists differently than that.

I want to define Fascism as the founders of Fascism defined it. How is that wrong? How is defining a political movement the way you want to and ignoring what the founders of that movement wanted it to mean correct?

Fascism does not exist differently than that, and if you don't believe me, please feel free to take political theory courses at your local university (like I did).

Btw, does this mean you have no objection to calling Stalin a 'Communist' (even though he really isn't?).

quote: To use your example, a fascist can be racist or not.

Yeah, but it leads to the same thing. Extreme Nationalism. The difference is in defining the 'nation'. Hitler defined it as the German people. Everyone else defined it as the people in the state. In fact there is a good argument that Naziism is simply a subset of Fascism and not indicative of the theory (kinda like Anarchism and Communism... every Communist is not an Anarchist).

How saying Fascism can be racist or not opens the floodgates into making it mean whatever the Hell you want it to mean is ludicrous and silly.

quote: Is there such a thing as a Dictatorist? No, we call them fascists.

No we don't... we call them by the Dictator's name: Maoist, Stalinist, etc. or the Dictator's political persuation: Royalist, Nationalist, etc.

	13-07-2003 09:50									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Louis XIV was a monarch. There's a difference. Fascism gives the government greater control over the economy, but it doesn't require that the govt take TOTAL control. You contradicted yourself. You said there was only democracy, communism, and fascism (putting aside the fact that communism and democracy can co-exist in the same state). How does monarchy suddenly arise?

Monarchy is an old system. It has no place in the modern world.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Also, it requires a lot of control over the economy... to prevent corporations from exploiting the nation's workers.

It doesn't prevent exploitation. It may simply make decisions that the corporations might otherwise make.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You want to define fascism the way it existed only in Italy. That would be an absolute definition of the word. Unfortunately, fascism exists differently than that. I want to define Fascism as the founders of Fascism defined it. How is that wrong? How is defining a political movement the way you want to and ignoring what the founders of that movement wanted it to mean correct?

T. Jefferson is ONE of the founders of democracy. The modern US is different from the original US, but it is still a democracy.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Btw, does this mean you have no objection to calling Stalin a 'Communist' (even though he really isn't?).

I do consider him a communist. Although the community did not truly own the means of production there is a grey area. So I call him a communist, even though I accept it when others do not.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: To use your example, a fascist can be racist or not. Yeah, but it leads to the same thing. Extreme Nationalism. The difference is in defining the 'nation'. Hitler defined it as the German people. Everyone else defined it as the people in the state. In fact there is a good argument that Naziism is simply a subset of Fascism and not indicative of the theory (kinda like Anarchism and Communism... every Communist is not an Anarchist).

Nationalism, racism, it's all about the govt being for a minority and not having consideration for those that are not part of the group. That is fascism.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Is there such a thing as a Dictatorist? No, we call them fascists. No we don't... we call them by the Dictator's name: Maoist, Stalinist, etc. or the Dictator's political persuation: Royalist, Nationalist, etc.

Those are specific govts that can only exist once. I'm asking you for a term that describes people who believe in authoritarian, capitalist regimes. We need a name to put them on the spectrum.

	13-07-2003 10:01									#89
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I believe their are 5 basic government types


Absolutism: Rule of a single person who believes he/she has a philosophical or religious right to rule.
-Nazi Germany
-17th Century France
-Czarist Russia
-Mussolini's Italy
-Imperial Rome
-Ancient Egypt
-Saudi Arabia

Despotism Rule of an power-hungry tyrant.
-Stalinist USSR
-Saddam-ruled Iraq
-Many African nations

Oligarchy: Rule of a chosen few, usually wealthy, people.
-Feudal Europe
-Ancient Sparta
-Post-Stalin USSR

Republic: Rule of the people through elected "Wise.Elite"
-US
-Republican Rome
-Modern Russia
-Modern Egypt
-Modern Turkey
-Mexico

Democracy: Rule of elected common people.
-Most European counties
-Canada
-Modern Japan
-Australia
-Modern South Africa
-Modern Israel
-Ancient Athens

	13-07-2003 10:03									#90
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quote: The modern US is different from the original US, but it is still a democracy.

*cough* Democratic Republic.

quote: I do consider him a communist.

But he isn't. He isn't even a Leninist Communist.

quote: Nationalism, racism, it's all about the govt being for a minority and not having consideration for those that are not part of the group. That is fascism.

Actually you are wrong. In every Fascist state the government was for the MAJORITY.

And Fascism, if you want to boil it down is basically total support of the state with a dictatorial regime. THAT is Fascism.

quote: Those are specific govts that can only exist once. I'm asking you for a term that describes people who believe in authoritarian, capitalist regimes. We need a name to put them on the spectrum.

You already have a name. Authoritarian Capitalism. That sounds ok to me.

On the much better 4 point spectrum (going from Socialism on the Left to Capitalism on the Right and Authoritarianism on the Top to Libertarianism on the Bottom), they'd be on the Top right. Fascism would be Top center.


Fascism is a very, very specific government (like Anarchism). It is a subset of Authoritarianism. Authoritarian Capitalism is another, different, subset. Fascist economics takes a little from Capitalism and a little from Socialism and creates something with both, which is now commonly refered to as Corporatism (but under a nicer and different form, usually seen in Central Europe, especially in Austria).

I want you to answer however (since you've ignored it) whether you believe Musharraf is a Fascist. Or, let's say, whether Mugabe is a Fascist? What about Charles Taylor in Liberia? Or Joseph Kabila in Congo?