13-07-2003 14:39									#1
	Monty Python Contact Thread Increase Your PM Length

I'd like to use this thread for both the contact logs and the discussion of our diplomacy with Monty Python. I don't think we'll need two seperate threads for a game like this.

Message received from OctavianX on 13th July

quote: Honorable FrustratedPoet: Greetings! I am Octavian X, Prime Minister of the Castle of Loimbard. We've recently made contact with your kind scouts in the area near Castle Camelot. We are happy to know Izzardia is our new neighbor. Our English comedy will one day bring peace and laughter to the world. I look forward to future diplomacy between our two great nations! ~Octavian X Prime Minister of the Castle of Loimbard

	13-07-2003 14:58									#2
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Tech trading possibilities: They started the game with Alphabet and Masonry (they're French). We have both of those. We can offer them Ceremonial Burial - I'll mention the possibility to OctavianX and see what the response is.

	13-07-2003 15:08									#3
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My reply (sent about 5 mins ago)

quote: Hi there! It is pleasure to be situated so close to fine people such as yourselves. I hope that we can build a lasting friendship and that, as far as possible, nobody gets hit in the face with a large trout and falls into a canal. In regard to tech trading ... we already have Masonry and Alphabet, I'm afraid, so no deal can be done there. However, we have Ceremonial Burial to trade if you are interested.

	24-07-2003 20:58									#4
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Do we maybe want to discuss technology partnership with them?

What are they researching? When will they be done? What would they like to trade for it? What do they want to research next, and what should we do to avoid doubling up (and thus falling behind other teams)?

Do we want to discuss long-term partnership? Perhaps a pact to be imperialist bastards together? A 1-2 punch?

Since we're not going to rush them, I think it would be prudent to set up some sort of relationship to lessen the attractiveness of them rushing US.

-Arrian

	24-07-2003 21:33									#5
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Good idea, and to that end....

I just sent this e-mail to Sir Ralph:

quote: I sent a PM to OctavianX about this a while back, but got no reply so I'm sending it to you. As you no doubt know, the people of Python are the immediate neighbours of Cake or Death and, seeing as you have not yet farted in our general direction or suggested that our father smells of wild fruit, we hope to build a friendship with you. We have Ceremonial Burial available for trade if you are interested in it. Let me know what kind of deal, if any, you might be willing to make and we can work something out. Furthermore, it would be in both our interests to establish a research partnership. May I ask what you are currently researching and what the ETA is? We're working on Writing and it will finish in approx 20 turns (I forget the exact number). Also, a couple of turns ago we popped a warrior from a goody hut to the north of your territory and he is currently moving south through the mountains towards our lands. Do not be alarmed if you see him pass by, you have my assurance that he will not bother you. He is currently 2 tiles away from your border and will get no closer than that. I'm also telling you this so that you can be sure that the jump in the power graph in our favour is not a result of us preparing to rush you. I look forward to your reply. FrustratedPoet Executive Transvestite of Izzardia (PS. If you don't want me bothering you with this stuff, and I should instead be contacting someone else (Octavian?) about diplomacy between our teams, just let me know and I'll shut up. )

	24-07-2003 21:43									#6
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Proposed message to OctavianX:

quote: Mr. X - Prime Minister of the Castle of Loimbard, I, Arrianus, commander of the 1st battalion, transvestite brigade (airborne wing), bid you greetings. It occurred to me, as I was instructing my troops in the intricacies of fantastic makeup, that we really ought to be discussing several matters of importance with our northern neighbors. Item 1: technology. As you know, our people were given the knowledge of the Alphabet and Pottery, and we have since learned the arts of Masonry and Ceremonial Burial. It is known to us that you also have knowledge of Masonry & the Alphabet. What I would like to propose is that we coordinate our future research in order to avoid needlessly spending precious resources duplicating each other's work. We are currently attempting to work out the difficult task of using this alphabet of ours to communicate the hilarity of the great Eddie to the world (writing). As it is a very difficult task, it is projected to take a long while (24 more turns, I believe). I would very much like to know what technology your people are working on, its estimated time of completion, and what path of research you would like to take in the future. Then we can trade our knowledge, so as to prevent our great civilizations from falling behind the rest of the world technologically (though I'm not quite sure how much research the Monkeys are going to do). Item 2: peace and prosperity. It is our desire to live in peace with your people, and avoid wasting our time and energy fighting amongst ourselves. It appears there is quite a bit of land available to us here in Britain, so I do not see the need for warfare between us. In fact, I have a (very hazy, and incomplete) vision of our peoples voyaging together to distant lands to meet new and interesting people (or possibly monkeys), and killing them. But that is in the future. For now, I would simply like to express our desire for peace, and our willingness to discuss a fair distribution of the lands available to our peoples for expansion. -Arrianus C.O. 1st Bttln, TVB (AB).

It's a bit of a ramble, so it could do with some editing, but the basic idea is to be very open (hence, coming right out with our research path) and amiable, in the hope that perhaps we really can manage a long-term partnership. Better than early warfare against an industrious foe, I say.

-Arrian

	24-07-2003 21:44									#7
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CROSSPOST!

Your message will do the job.

-Arrian

	25-07-2003 00:28									#8
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Received via email from Sir Ralph:

quote: PtWDG II: I will post your message in our forum. Whoever of our kniggggetttts feels like taking the office of a foreign minister, will contact you.

	28-07-2003 14:45									#9
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reply received yesterday via e-mail from Sir Ralph:

quote: To the people of Izzardia: We fart in your general direction! Your mothers were hamsters and your fathers smelt of elderberries! That being said (and we really had to), we greet you as our friendly neighbors. May our friendship be long and fruitful. You ask what we're researching? We are researching Bronze Working, to make better armor and weapons for our nobles. We'll have it in about 3 turns. We shake our heads on your research. Writing? What silly thing's that? Are you clerics? What does a man need this for? Oh well, perhaps we'll later have use for it. May be for engraving in the Holy Grail "Found by Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table". On the issue of the warrior, who you found in the small village, we still don't know what our answer is. Our ancestor, the great Guy de Loimbard, would have said: You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottom, sons of a silly person. We blow our noses at you and all your silly English k-nnnnniggets. Thpppppt! Thppt! Thppt! But our ancestor was of a very low culture. We won't say such things to you, at least not that loud. We say: Go in peace, but do not cross our borders, or we have to activate our livestock artillery at you. The nobles of Monty Python. Signed: Sir Ralph, Minister of Ruining our Nation (M.O.R.O.N.)

That's the usual "we can be friends, just don't fcuk with me" response from Sir Ralph.

We might be able to trade for BW in a few turns. We have Ceremonial Burial and WC to offer. I need to refresh my memory about tech values ... I've seen a couple of threads on it before, but god knows if I can find them again.

/note: This reply came in the form of a zip file of a picture, mp3 and html file. Very funny. I'll forward it to the mailing list to let you guys have a look.

	28-07-2003 17:13									#10
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What about pottery? Did they get that out of a hut or something?

With SR as our contact with them, we'll get some straight shootin', that's for sure.

-Arrian

	28-07-2003 17:15									#11
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FP, tech values: open the editor.

We could play up the clerical bit (SR's reaction to our research) and offer Ceremonial Burial for BW. We should probably call it Church of England, though, sir. Sounds better than Psychotic Bastard Religion.

-Arrian

	28-07-2003 21:32									#12
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I say, that's the funniest piece of diplomatic mail I've ever received.

	29-07-2003 00:22									#13
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quote: We won't say such things to you, at least not that loud. We say: Go in peace, but do not cross our borders, or we have to activate our livestock artillery at you.

Yeah, this part in particular is hilarious.

-Arrian

	01-08-2003 13:47									#14
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PM sent to Octavian and Sir Ralph

quote: Dear Knights Who Say Ni, The people of Izzardia, learned as they are in matter of clerical importance, desire to exchange our knowledge of religious burial techniques and temple-building for your knowledge of how to work the metal known as Bronze. We have abandoned our previous faith of the "Psychotic Bastard" religion in favour of something known as the "Church of England", which is a much better name and at least sounds like it has some actual principles attached to it. We await your response to this proposal. Yours sincerely, FrustratedPoet, the Big Hairy King of Izzardia.

	06-08-2003 13:28									#15
	Got spare money?

Response received via PM from Octavian:

quote: Big Hairy King, Executive Transvestite, or whatever you call yourself Frustrated Poet of Izzardia: We would indeed like to trade your art of burying things for our art of making shiny things out of bronze. You see, we have several dead parrots nailed to their perches since we’ve nothing better to do with them… However, we do feel that bronze working is more valuable than ceremonial burial. If we were to sell bronze working to Izzardia, we would expect ten gold coins in addition to ceremonial burial. Please contact us soon, ~Octavian the Tenth Despot Prime Minister of the Castle of Guy de Loimbard

The bottom line is they want CB+10 gold for BW.

They are correct that BW has a higher base cost than CB and so are justified in asking for some gold. We would have done the same I think.

I believe we should accept this offer.

Thoughts?

	06-08-2003 21:21									#16
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Do it.

-Arrian

	06-08-2003 21:36									#17
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It's worth it.

	09-09-2003 05:14									#18
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I sent Warrior Code to the Pythons "unaccepted" and sent a brief PM to Sir Ralph regarding same. Maybe we can work out a deal.

-Arrian

	24-09-2003 20:54									#19
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I'm going to PM Sir Ralph and try to get him to tell me what they're doing for research, so we can try and maximize our trading possiblities, not to mention picking the best tech to research next, since we're coming up on writing soon.

-Arrian

	24-09-2003 21:46									#21
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Sent:

quote: Sir Ralph & OctavianX, As the nation of Izzardia approaches the discovery of "writing," we would like to inquire as to the Python's current research status. First, obviously we'd like to trade. Second, we'd like to avoid duplicating research when we pick our next tech to research. So, what are you fellows up to? The ETA on writing is now down to single digits (8 or 9 turns, IIRC), so while it isn't an immediate concern, it's coming up. We remain open to creative deals - it doesn't have to be tech-for-tech or tech-for-gold upfront, though those are the easiest and therefore generally preferrable deals to make. Let me know... -Arrian

Sorry, not the best roleplay in the world, but that's not really my forte.

	25-09-2003 17:08									#22
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Received from SR:

quote: Thanks for the info. We will finish Iron Working shortly (4 or 5 turns). We work on a trade proposal.

Damn. I was hoping that wasn't going to be the case, but no dice. So both teams we know are researching IW, and will be done shortly.

Therefore, we can only do a writing-for-IW trade with one. The other deal, if any, would have to be writing for gold (unlikely there is much out there) or some future consideration.

-Arrian

	07-10-2003 01:29									#23
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PROPOSED message to Pythons:

quote: Sir Ralph, Hey, just checking in regarding our possible tech trade. IIRC, you guys are almost done with IW. We are almost done with writing (5 turns). We have also met team Monkey. They too are researching IW, unfortunately. Here are my thoughts: Python and Izzardia trade IW for Writing, straight-up. We can pursue a different trade Monkey (money for pottery, IIRC). It is not our intention to try and keep you and this other civ from contacting one another. Eventually, your explorers will meet up (though I honestly don't know how long that will take - it all depends on how you move). If you would like contact sooner rather than later, we're up for a trade of contact for 25 gold once we have writing. I'm not trying to gouge anyone here. Anyway, please let us know what you think of the writing - IW deal. If we can work that out to our mutual satisfaction, I was hoping to get our teams to combine on a republic beeline (one of us takes philo, the other takes CoL. Monkey could do a number of things, but I think that MapMaking at is a good choice). Let me know what you think of that, too. -Arrian

I'm thinking there is little point in trying to be secretive about our new contact, so why not continue to be very open with Python? The last thing I want to do is make us seem "difficult" enough for them to decide to just remove us. We're in no position to fight, and won't be for some time.

As for Monkey, if you guys agree with this approach, then one of us can draft a pottery-for-cash proposal (plus perhaps an attempt to steer them toward MM) and fire it off.

-Arrian

	07-10-2003 03:48									#24
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I'd say that the Pythons are our diplomatic priority, for a number of reasons:

1) AFAICS they are closer and more likely to feel squeezed.

2) If they agree on the Republic beeline we could be onto a good long term deal. We don't know Monkey's land, but the Pythons are on a river, which can offer good research if they keep pop up - and they doubtless will if pushing for republic.

3) Cultural grouping : In an echo to the SP cultury-linked start locstion, we and the Pythons should be natural allies.

As for Monkey - yes, Pottery for Gold.

	07-10-2003 18:17									#25
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So you approve of the message?

FP, what do you think?

-Arrian

	07-10-2003 18:30									#26
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I'm in full agreement not only with the text of the message, but also the reasoning behind why you were so open with them. Excellent.

	07-10-2003 18:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian So you approve of the message?

100%

	07-10-2003 19:35									#28
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Excellent. "Proposed" message sent to Sir Ralph.

Let's give the Pythons a turn cycle to respond before we talk to the Monkeys... I want to see if this approach meets with interest or not.

-Arrian

	07-10-2003 23:20									#29
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Response from SR, and my response thereto:

quote: Sounds very well to us. We will have Iron Working next turn and will have to discuss what we will do till your completion of Writing. Later, a Republic beeline sounds good. As for Monkey, we'll see if we meet within the next turns. If we didn't meet yet when you have Writing, we can talk about a purchase of the contact. About Monkeys research I'm unsure. Map Making sounds good, but Literature is also not a bad advance to have. But there seems to be no scientistic civ among us, to have cheap libraries, right? SR

RE: RE: PTW Demogame II
I had considered Literature as well. Both have their advantages. I'll ask Monkey what they think.

So there is a 4-turn gap between your completion of IW and our completion of Writing. There are two options, then: 1) you could run 100% tax for 4 turns, or 2) you could research something relatively cheap (the wheel?) at maximum. It's up to you, though if you do #2, I don't think we will be able to synchronize our research of philosophy & code of laws (then again, is that really necessary?).

Should we do it at 40-turn pace? I'm not sure either of our civs is producing enough commerce to do it in much less time, even at 80-90% science. Plus, having big treasuries when we switch to republic will be a good thing.

Plus, during those 40 turns, hopefully Monkey can research 2 techs, or get most of the way there, if they go all-out. Then we can do a big swap, and pick one of us to research republic while the others fill in the blanks.

Anyway, shall we consider Writing-for-IW a done deal? If so, great, and 5 turns from now, we will send Writing "accepted" to you. I'll let you know what Monkey has to say about MM/Lit.

-Arrian

	07-10-2003 23:57									#30
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Second message sent to SR, precipitated by trying to draft a proposal to Monkey, and having a hell of a time of it:

quote: Sir Ralph, I've been thinking about the research situation some more, and a couple of problems occurred to me: 1) Are we going to agree not to resell each other's techs? If so, will such a no trade clause have a time limitation? Also, Monkey does not have writing, and has nothing to trade to us to get it. Therefore they cannot research Literature, unless we give them Writing. If Python and CoD research CoL & Philo, and Monkey does MM, the "fair" trade would be MM for Writing from CoD and MM to Python for CoL or Philo (whichever you guys research), with adjustment here or there for differences in research cost, if necessary. That still leaves them 1 big tech behind. The last thing I want to do is make them feel left out, because then they might want to deal themselves back in with some pointy sticks, if you take my meaning. Plus, they are a better research partner if they're caught up. But I don't want to throw away a tech lead either. What do you think? Any suggestions? -Arrian