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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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Ok, I sent this to SR:
quote:
J -
My teamates and I have a basic, yet very important, question:
Why? Why destroy Monkey? We can make some educated guesses, but we'd rather hear your answer.
From that question follows "what?" - as in what benifits are you seeking from their destruction?
We spent considerable time and effort setting up a peaceful 3-way partnership here. I recognize there are problems with that partnership. Specifically that Monkey doesn't look real useful right now. But, even leaving aside our (CoD's)misgivings about backstabbing a team we've just managed to befriend, you're talking about investing in warfare against a team with Numidian Mercs, a long way away, and the payoff is crappy land, a luxury we would have had no problem trading for (ivory, IIRC), and maybe some resources we don't have. From where we're sitting, it doesn't seem to make a heckuva lot of sense. Which is why we have so many questions.
-Rob |
I sent it since I guess my last message probably gave him the impression that the ball was in our court (even though I asked questions). This one swats it back over to their side.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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Ok, here we go...
quote:
War with Monkey
The reasoning:
1) Geopolitical, 3 civs on 1 continent are a very instable community for long term coexistence, there will always be the danger of a 2 vs 1 alliance. Better are 2 civs (as we want) or 4 civs, since 3 vs 1 alliances are hard to forge.
2) Monty Python has very limited space to expand, even with the concessions granted by Cake or Death. While the land area seems big, the lions share of it consists of mountains and tundra. Although ICS on the small patch of grassland may be a solution for a head start, it will backfire later, when big cities are needed. This is inacceptable long term.
3) Both Monty Python and Cake or Death have scarce resources for the early game.
4) This is a competitive game and it generally is about eliminating each other. It is not a matter of good or evil, or do you consider the lion to be evil because he ate the zebra? The weaker has to go, when his time comes. And there definitely is a small window of opportunity to hit them hard before they build up a serious defense.
5) We (both of us!) need leaders for a FP/Palace jump and maybe some early wonders. They can only be gained through warfare.
Rebuttal of doubts:
6) The Monkey land is not bad, it is just poorly improved. It lacks rivers and this is hard for the early game, but it matters no more, when the empire gets bigger and the Republic bonus and other methods and improvements to gain commerce kick in.
7) The Numidian Mercenary is a dangerous unit, but it has two severe downsides: It is expensive and can not be built in numbers by a weak nation, and it can not be fully poprushed. I doubt that we will see more than a couple of Numidian Mercenaries by 600BC. If we wait longer, their number would quickly increase.
8) Science-wise Monkey is right now only half a nation and I doubt that this situation can be improved quickly, so their elimination wouldn't matter that much. We have another proposal: Why don't we take each a side (one east, one west), send suicide galleys as soon as we have Map Making, and find the others? Since the risk is taken equally, the benefit will also be shared, all contacts gained this way shall be shared with the partner without a fee, no matter who makes them.
Possible future:
9) There are two viable ways: Either Python gets a hold down there and Palace jumps while keeping its old core, or one of us moves completely by transferring his population through settlers and workers. Both ways are easier to go early, when there is not much population yet and not much improvements to abandon. If the second way is chosen, the other part shall keep the moving part up to date technologically and protect him. Either way, after seeing the whole map of the continent, all resources and luxuries shall be shared fairly. The lack of rivers could for instance be leveled by more luxuries (trade goods) or a bit more land.
Either way will pay off in the later game, because the other continent will face two allied, kickass civs (both English comedy, a perfect duo) instead of three hampered ones. |
And my response...
quote:
J,
Thank you for explaining your team's thought process on this. CoD will discuss it - and knowing the "why" and the "what" makes that easier. Clearly, this will remain strictly confidential (I forgot to acknowledge that before).
Some initial thoughts:
On a personal level, my squeemishness about attacking Monkey stemms from my dislike of saying one thing and doing another (CoD has played nicey-nicey with the Monkeys... and then we turn around and stab them in the back? That rankles a bit, I have to admit). I know, I know, that's what leaders do.  But in this particular demogame, I wanted to avoid that as long as I could. I wanted to try and keep the peace on our continent, and have all three of us team up as Imperialist bastards against the rest of the world.
Regarding leaders for the FP/Palace move... well, I had planned on building a FP for CoD manually. Our chances of getting a leader out of a short war (the whole purpose of hitting them early is to lessen the number of Numidian's we will have to kill) are low, to say the least.
Having said that, I *do* understand Monty Python's desire for more land. You guys are cramped up there, and I'm not stupid: it's our land that would make the most sense for you to conquer. I have been thinking about how to deal with your land problems (I was thinking about it *before* you mentioned your desire to destroy the Monkeys). Let me ask you this: have you found the southwestern penninsula of our continent yet? It's totally empty. It's not huge, but it certainly isn't small either. I really expected to find another civ down there when we were exploring. Would you guys be willing to consider the possibility of building a second core down there with our help? I know it may sound odd coming from me, but it might be actually be best not to go to war! Let me know if you haven't seen that southwestern penninsula, by the way, and I will describe it to you in some detail.
Anyway, at this time, please don't take my comments to mean that we have decided one way or the other. We haven't. This is serious stuff. You guys are our close friends and allies (at least that's how we see you), and it was definitely my hope that we remain so and cooperate deep into the game. Please be patient with us. We were firmly on the course of peaceful development, and going along with your plan would require a radical shift in our plans.
-Rob |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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More from Sir Ralph:
quote:
Just a couple remarks (I'm busy playtesting my scenario):
We are right now exploring the peninsula. We don't yet know officially, that it's a peninsula, but we know it inofficially, since we see the continent fork and the separating water has only 1 food. It seems to be good land, but I'm not sure if it's enough to have a considerable core there, I mean one that can defend itself, since the other half is far away.
And believe me, two imperialistic bastards do better than three. Three is a baaad number for alliances, there's always the danger of a 2 vs 1 backstab, anytime! Diplomacy is much easier between two, too, than a three way diplomacy.
And about you playing nicey-nicey, come on Arrian, are you serious?  First, this is a game and competition and war are a substantial part of it. Everyone should be aware, that he can be attacked anytime, playing nice or not. And second, you have about 40 turns time to let the relations get frostier, be it by expressing disappointment about their bad research performance, by "accidental" territory violation with scouts or in some other way. |
Law of the jungle and all that.
I'm going to try and put together a thorough written description of the southwest penninsula, but my gut tells me they won't go for it.
The time is fast approaching when we will have to decide whether or not we're in on this...
-Arrian
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Mountain Sage
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Ah, I really fear it will be C and D for us. As I see the situation:
1. We refuse the alliance and Python attacks us, since we don't have iron (correct?) and our land are adjacent to their. They wipe us out, take our land and become power no. 1 on this island. The Monkeys will become a vassal state.
2. We join Phython, wipe out the Monkey and then what? Do you believe that Phyton will agree to have his lands spilt into two, with us in the middle? If they do that, they become vulnerable. If not us, then later on another team can conquer them piecemeal. Then, if it's a short war, they will have to build their FP brick by brick, in a city totally corrupted. Sorry, but I don't buy their reasoning.
3. We wipe the Monkey out together, and, as suggested, we start the Great Trek. That means that for 'ages' we will be in their hands for techs, gold etc. We will have the pleasure of building the Palace AND the FP down south brick by brick (2 unproductive cities). Then, they can attack our caravans any time. We lose one and we're out. Finally, the build their FP in Izz and have two cores at 100% production.
As I see it, we're screwed, unless we do something unexpected. I suggest we ally ourselves with Monkey but go along with Python's scheme. Both Monkey and we go on war footing, building only military units. Monkey can 'officially' do this since they will see the spikes in Python's and C&D's charts. Then they march North to start a pre-emptive war (against us, with lots of threats but no real declaring). Then we combine our military and crush Phython.
Sonds crazy? Yes, but come with another plan.
P.S. Monkey could very well double-play us and instead of allying with us could ally with Phython... but this is a risk we have to take.
Comments? I'll be back on Monday.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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If we do this, here are my initial thoughts:
1) settler after next goes for the city site 222 of Silesia, instead of the 2211 of Swindon site. Because of horses, of courses.
2) Swindon stays on spears and eventually chariots, whereas Silesia does vet warriors until...
3) New city 444 of Izz builds a barracks - right from the start. Once that's done, vet warriors there. Silesia switches to chariots.
4) We will want map making. First, so we can trade maps with Python. Second, so we can build a galley or two in our coastal cities, and use them for landings due east of Primate Central, on the mountains.
5) Python's war road should probably go through our territory, to hide it better (and it will be more direct, and it will benifit us).
6) Monkey's next research will probably be Map Making. They should be able to get it before 600bc. We will discover Republic sooner than they will be able to get MM, I'm sure. We can withold rep, saying we want MM in trade first. Then, right before war, we do the trade, they revolt, and within a few turns, we strike. :vomit:
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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Lots of crossposting...
MS,
Well, no, Python does not have to build a FP brick-by-brick in a totall corrupt city. They can build it up north (in their current core) and do a "palace jump" down south. Those are by no means easy, but what it basically entails is building a bunch of cities down there, pumping up their pop, and abandoning their current capitol. When that happens, the palace "jumps" to a new city. If it's engineered correctly, it will jump to the former Monkey lands.
That being said, I see what you're getting at, and I do see the risk that Python might turn on us next. But that would be stupid on their part, at least until contact is made with other civs and they can find other tech trading partners.
The other problem is this: as much as I don't really want to betray Monkey, I'm not really all that fond of them either. I don't see them as very good long term allies.
-Arrian
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:29
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1. Perhaps we could at least ask Python how long we have to internally consider their, uh, interesting proposal.
2. For the reasons MS indicated, we might like Python to be the ones calling the removal men. They are the ones that need the better core, and have set up a tight build that's good for knocking out a rival early on, but not so much longer term. We have a loose build in good land and not a bad starting point for our Palace. They end up with the South and West of the continent, and us with the North and East.
3. It makes more sense for us to be allied with Python than Monkey while Python are with us in research and Monkey behind, plus there is the cultural linkage thing (English Comedy teams out to plant flags everywhere), which bodes better than Monkey for a long-term alliance. Monkey have come out of the blocks rather slowly, which might not be entirely their fault but I somehow suspect that sub-optimal gameplay could be involved. If so, we'd rather be allied with the more efficient team. I hope I'm not doing Monkey an injustice for suggesting this.
4. Python might want the continent to themselves, but might prefer an alliance. Four cores are better than two, and alliances are essential in DGs, from what I've learned in the other.
5. Python have been easy to deal with from the off wheras Monkey took a lot of work to build a decent relationship with. As a result we can fully scout out their end of the continent - although maybe we'd have got than anyway from maps, and perhaps they will build less military than if we had not made the effort.
6. I was possibly reading too much into SR's comments - though maybe I was just taking his logic a step further. A Python-Monkey hit on CoD must also have been an option for them to consider.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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Cort, I agree with pretty much everything you said.
First off, we're not moving. End of story.
That means Python either accepts a divided empire, or they pick up and move south, giving us their current lands. That would mean giving them at least some of the jungle lands... I mean, without that they get zero rivers. That's the main problem here... all the good land is in the north and center. The south pretty much sucks.
If we could convince them to do that... well, hell, if we could get our hands on their old core? That would rock.
I wonder how they would react to something like this:
"Ok, we're in, but we have a few conditions:
1) Python moves its entire empire to the south. To compensate for the lower quality of land, we'll give more than 1/2, and we will assist in the move. This will have to be planned out with precision, and may involve much more information sharing than has been the case thus far;
2) We share resources and luxuries, regardless of distribution on the continent. If there be but 1 source of a given resource, we will arrange to take turns with it;
3) Shared investment in exploring/contacts, as proposed by Python earlier;"
Hmm, there is something else I want to clarify with SR:
Python are clearly willing to scheme, and want to win. That's fine. But what remains unclear is whether or not they are willing to break treaty obligations to do it. If we draw up some alliance document and request assurances like a Non-Agression Pact, a demilitarized zone, etc., will it be worth the paper it's printed on? As we can see from prior DG experience, NAPs don't seem to work. I was hoping that would be different in this game.
-Arrian
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Mountain Sage
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Sorry about the late reply.
To make a long story short, if Phython agrees to move south, then I would be the most happiest of the strategsist here. Let them make the Long Trek and clear out the jungle.
However, plan B would be a 2-headed empire for them and we would get more land south. Which is fine for me.
As for their Palace jump, I understand the mechanics (FP north etc.), but even if you add workers to a city south, unless you have a GL, you will need to build it in a totally corrupted city (albeit producing lots of shield), or does the palace jump 'automatically'?
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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MS - a palace "jump" occurs when the current capitol is captured or abandoned. It will jump to another city automatically. Which city it jumps to is the question - and one can manipulate that. Somebody over at CFC worked it out. It's complicated.
Anyway, THE DIE IS CAST:
quote:
J,
Ok, we've discussed your plan, and we're in - but there is one condition. We're not moving our empire. Our loose build (ring at 4.5) is built to last. We will be happy to assist if you wish to move yours if you wish, instead of accepting two seperate cores. Up to you.
In light of our decision, I think it would probably be best if your war road went through our empire and down into the jungle from there. That should hide it better from Monkey, at least in the early going, and it's a more direct route. Also, it will have the side benifit of helping hook up silks which we can share. If Monkey asks about the road, we can say that you're helping us with roadbuilding in exchange for 20 turns of silks. Once we move south of their with the road, however, things may get dicier. If I was a Monkey, I'd have a lookout on the hills SE of the jungle (MonkeyGrog).
What size invasion force were you guys thinking of building? Keep in mind that if we're going to switch to republic (21 turns and counting...), we're going to loose several turns to anarchy. Let's estimate 4. So in approximately 25 turns, we will come out of anarchy. Just something to keep in mind.
For the invasion itself, turn order becomes important. IIRC, amongst the three of us, Python is first, Monkey second, and CoD last. How do we use that to our advantage? If CoD hits a monkey city, do damaged units inside not heal until monkey's turn? If so, in theory, CoD could "lead" with horsemen to weaken Numidians, and Python could finish with swords. Does that sound like the beginnings of a battle plan?
-Rob |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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Well, the powergraph won't really take off until we actually do the upgrades. Our guys can upgrade in Swindon and march, timed to coincide with the building of the fort city, in which python should rush a barracks, upgrading their troops down there, while our guys show up and cover them.
Meanwhile, if we can manage it, I want to land 2 swordsmen with a galley due east of Primate Central. They stick to the mountains, forcing the Monkeys to keep adequate defensive troops in PC, making any northern cities harder to defend. Obviously, this means we need Map Making.
MM could be Monkey's next research. In return we can give them Republic, and then attack, hitting them in anarchy. How sporting, eh? Well, too bad. If we're doing this, we're doing it. And the idea is to make the other bastard die for his country.
-Arrian
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:29
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Great message to SR, and a good plan for the initial blow. They might dither though on recieving republic if they think their empire isn't ready for it. I sometimes do in SP. So we can't necessarily bank on them being in anarchy, though there's obvioulsy a good chance.
We've only been on a war footing for half-a-turn and you're already in your element, Arrian 
Seeing as this thread, the Python Contact Log, has become a centre for discussion, maybe a new thread is called for. Perhaps not 'Spanking the Monkey' - amusing though it would be. Do these thread titles in private forums show up in user profiles?
One other thing - I liked the point about deal-breaking you rasied to SR. Civ is not a nice game, but it can still be honourable - and unlike against the AI, teams and players can carry their reputations into future games. Speaking for myself, I would wish to play in honour of agreements wherever possible.
So as we've not signed anything with Monkey, we are not acting dishonourably within the Law-of-the-Jungle world that is Civ. There's probably little chance of carrying out the famous "Arrian Deception" in a DG - so if we destroy Monkey before contact the world will probably have a pretty good idea of who did it - so the chances of arriving somewhere unsuspectected in the future will be reduced.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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Oh, once the fighting begins, the other teams will find out for sure. Public forum. Nuff said. The thing is, if we hit them early enough and kill them, nobody can gift them cities and keep them alive on the other side of the world. We may have to watch out for a settler-on-galley escape, though.
quote:
One other thing - I liked the point about deal-breaking you rasied to SR. Civ is not a nice game, but it can still be honourable - and unlike against the AI, teams and players can carry their reputations into future games. Speaking for myself, I would wish to play in honour of agreements wherever possible. |
Do you mean my PM to him where I talked about being squeemish about backstabbing?
Yeah, I'd like very much to avoid breaking agreements. But I've no intention of whitewashing what we're planning on doing to Monkey. We're going to deceive them and then kill them. Written agreement or not, we're going to backstab them, IMO. I guarantee they will see it that way.
-Arrian
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Mountain Sage
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Ok, the 'palace jump' is now clear to me (I never disbanded my capitol in my games...). Just convince Phyton to gift us the city instead of disbanding it.
As for the anarchy before Republic (speaking about the Monkeys), why don't you contact them an announce that we will be trading/gifting the Republic and asking them if they plan to switch immediately? Just for better coordinating our common future research (4 turns count, that is).
As for the settler-in galley, let's build a second one just to be on the safe side.
I agree we should be careful not to break any agreements. We still plan to play another game after this one, no?
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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Messages back and forth:
quote:
Hello R,
despite the fact, that I posted your offer in our forum, the response of our knights is zero so far. Mainly because I'm the only one who's game-related active at the moment (the others eat ham and jam and spam a lot ... well ... occasionally, at least). Dave (who's the originator of the war effort) has disappeared at all, I hope he'll be back soon, as I need his opinion concerning your proposed changes (of the war route that is). So this is not our official stance yet, but just some thoughts of me:
- Don't go too much for cheap units and upgrade. This is not SP, you probably aren't researching at 10% and collect money (at least we hope so) and getting shields will be easier for the foreseeable future than getting money. We're planning to start a 1-scientist research after we discover Currency. We already have Mathematics. Until then, we build units full-price.
- Having CoD horsemen attacking and Python foot knights cleaning up is ok for us, although we would like to have a limited amount of horses ourselves, just like you probably would like to have a couple of swords. May be we "exchange" our resources at some point after 1000BC.
- The road through your empire is ok with me, but I'm unsure about Dave. Our condition would be a Right of Passage agreement (for the sake of speed). And the road should be kept clean of your units (including workers), because this would slow us down. This would need a careful planning. You should make the base tile improvement right before or right after our workers go through and road, and after this keep the road free.
- Your condition not to move is fine with me and as long as the majority in our team will not outcry in protest (doesn't look so ATM) it will remain so.
I will contact you again as soon as I have some more response from the others of my team.
J.
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quote:
J,
Thanks for the response. I haven't been around for a few days now (Thanksgiving Weekend here in the USA, which may explain some of your team's inactivity, if they're Americans).
A couple things:
We have ~150 gold, which is either 3+ swordsmen upgraded from warriors or 7+ horsemen upgraded from chariots, or a mixture. So there is some upgrade possibility for CoD. We researched writing at 40-turn pace, remember? 
A RoP is no problem for the roadbuilding effort. I'd already assumed that was a part of this alliance. We can coordinate things so we don't get in each other's way, I hope. How many workers were you guys going to devote to the roadbuilding process?
-Rob |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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More messages:
quote:
Rob,
we haven't researched a 40-turn tech and thus don't have much money at the moment. Of course if you have it, you can spend it as you like.
As for the workers, we planned to use 2 of our industrious workers (able to road a tile in 2 turns by step-road-step-road-...) with a third joining them when it goes through jungle and mountains. Should be sufficient. We planned to protect them from barbarians with a spearman and a swordsman, when the route went around your empire. This will not be necessary, if you care for their safety while they are crossing your empire. We would then wait with the escort at the southern border, and found our base city there.
Dave returned and approved the war route. Expect two of our workers in 2-3 turns. If you have a preference for the route, send your proposal. Rmember, it would be best if these tiles would be kept free later. Before the war begins, we'll give you notice if there are units crossing. Will be mostly workers, may be a settler in the end.
J.
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quote:
J,
Ok, I will have a look at the most recent screenshot and figure out where I think the road should go. Some of it is already built, of course, or under construction (the northern bits, inside our current borders).
I noticed the Monkey's thread in the public forum regarding deforestation. Excellent. If they want to give us a causus belli, I'm not going to argue. 
-Rob |
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19-11-2003 23:52
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