28-07-2003 09:03									#61
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Tell that to latin america.

Red herring. Most of latin America is much better off today then they were 20 years ago. Look how many more have TVs, cars, jobs. Just look at MExico today verses 20 years ago. South America is currently going through a slump because it's new Democracy elected politicians who acted like candy men who just couldn't say no to any spending bill they ever saw. Thus the debt crisis and the financial melt down.

	28-07-2003 09:13									#62
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And the big surprise is that most also blame the US for a lot of their troubles, not Castro. Wait. That's not a surprise at all.

of course its not a suprise, if i were in cuba, i would listen to my supreme overlord too and blame america for my troubles... same thing if i lived in China, NK, or Vietnam... hmm, what do all these countries have in common?

	28-07-2003 09:20									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller Cuba does all right internaly it is in camparison with other nations that it does bad, and most of this is because of the US (sanctions and the like) Jon Miller

i dont buy that. Yes, the US is an important trading partner, but im not convinced that Cuba could not get other things they need to import/export elsewhere. To blame their condition solely on the US embargo is unwuse, i think their communist system has much more to do with it

	28-07-2003 09:26									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Of course they "started" at a much higher standard of living than South America, but have lost most of that advantage in comparitive terms as their real incomes are lower than they were when Castro took over.

No they didn't. Cuba is not in any way richer than ANY state in South America, even Bolivia or Paraguay.

Cuba does have much better literacy rates and average lifespans, but PCI is certainly lower.

	28-07-2003 09:53									#65
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No they didn't. Cuba is not in any way richer than ANY state in South America, even Bolivia or Paraguay. Cuba does have much better literacy rates and average lifespans, but PCI is certainly lower.

My starting point of reference was the end of the Battista regime when I believe Cuba was richer than most of the countries of South America. Now they of course aren't.

	28-07-2003 10:02									#66
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Unlikely. Many SA state were certainly much richer, and the rest were about as rich: maybe Bolivia and Paraguay were behind, but no, for all the glitz of Havana Cuba was not rich, not even by Latin American standards.

	28-07-2003 10:27									#67
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Because we have a capitalist system with the rul of law.

Or because living in a richer place makes you richer, generally?

	28-07-2003 10:29									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman i dont buy that. Yes, the US is an important trading partner, but im not convinced that Cuba could not get other things they need to import/export elsewhere. To blame their condition solely on the US embargo is unwuse, i think their communist system has much more to do with it

The biggest market in the world is sitting 90 miles from them and they're barred access. The next nearest first world market is Canada.

No. Not a major competitive disadvantage at all...

	28-07-2003 13:43									#69
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Communism will fall, and Cuba will be like the Baltic states after the fall of USSR, perhaps even better, due to lifting of US embrago.

And we're (the Baltics) doing just fine.

	28-07-2003 21:18									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Chavez will move from Venezuela to Cuba, take his place and everything else will be the same Actually, that doesn't sound that bad.

Specially for the people at Venezuela

	28-07-2003 21:21									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman i dont buy that. Yes, the US is an important trading partner, but im not convinced that Cuba could not get other things they need to import/export elsewhere. To blame their condition solely on the US embargo is unwuse, i think their communist system has much more to do with it

Specially since a lot of Spanish people go to Cuba on Holidays and give their Euros to Cuban "companies". The embargo is not a real embargo.

	28-07-2003 21:21									#72
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Yup, Cuba is suppose to be a great vacation destination... For except Americans that is...

	28-07-2003 21:53									#73
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Americans can still go. You just can't let the Bushies know.

Seriously, it has never been illegal to go to Cuba; just to spend money there. Though a few years ago the restrictions were lightened so that now you can go for "educational reasons". The Cubans have started offering "Cuban history tours" where you spend 1 day learning about Cuban history and the next 6 laying on the beach. Now that's my idea of education.

	28-07-2003 23:01									#74
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post ban test

edit: Cuba will remain independent from the US and the exiles which spells some sort of socialist system to continue, hopefully more democratic.

	28-07-2003 23:09									#75
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Castro promised to take dollars out of circulation again. Anyone got a site on that?

	28-07-2003 23:41									#76
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I think there will be massive pressure from the US, and more importantly from enriched exilees for Cuba to embrace reforms and capitalism. The Cubans may be lured by the promises of capitalism just like Eastern Europe was. Or maybe not.

Whatever happens, I think the Cuban Communist Party will be overwhelmed by US-originating pressure, and only the cuban people will decide if they embrace the capitalist tide or not. If not, I agree with GePap: you can expect a range of political and economic reforms for the weakened CCP too keep power and to remain legitimate.

	29-07-2003 00:39									#77
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52nd state.

for all the glitz of Havana Cuba was not rich, not even by Latin American standards

Well, now Cuba's not even rich by Haitian standards.

	29-07-2003 01:52									#78
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Yes it is.

	29-07-2003 01:56									#79
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Eh? Neither materially nor spiritually.

They are rich by North Korean standards, though.

	29-07-2003 01:58									#80
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Eh? Neither materially nor spiritually.

I suggest you read the vitals on Haiti again, Dan.

What was their average life expectancy? mid-30s or something?

I've almost certainly spent more time talking to Haitians than you have, given Quebec's affinity for accepting them as immigrants...

	29-07-2003 01:58									#81
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When Castro dies, MLB will never be the same...

We will have a market flooding of classical American Autos...

The world will be in utter shock, as we all believed Castro was immortal...

	29-07-2003 02:03									#82
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I suggest you read the vitals on Haiti again, Dan.

I have read the vitals. Look at the economic statistics for a reality check on your communist utopia.

The only reason Cubans aren't eating grass is because Russia hasn't asked Cuba to pay on its debt yet.

	29-07-2003 02:07									#83
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Check out the UN HDI. Places Cuba between Brazil and Argentina. Certainly well above Haiti...

	29-07-2003 02:09									#84
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And it's all based on Russian charity, which is likely to reverse itself. Cuba owes something on the order of $20 billion, and its economic base is only slightly better than Haiti's.

	29-07-2003 02:10									#85
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the debt thing is almost meaningless

everynation worth it's name owes much more than it brings in

including a certain nation we are both members of

Jon Miller

	29-07-2003 02:11									#86
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You forgot. they fake all their statistics, coz they're commies!

Really, when I lived in the USSR, I lived in a cave, and we all ate dry potatoes from siberia. Luckily we still had those boots the Americans have sent us on land lease, coz otherwise, we'd be like totally naked!

Thank you America, for explaining how all my life was a lie! I took the red pill! not the "red" pill, but the red pill!

	29-07-2003 02:14									#87
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everynation worth it's name owes much more than it brings in

Cuba owes about 3x its annual economic output (the $20 billion is just to Russia). That's got to be one of the highest debt burdens in the world, and much, much more than the certain country in which we are living.

Thank you America, for explaining how all my life was a lie!

Hey, maybe Glasnost would have worked, if you hadn't been bleeding yourselves dry by exporting the revolution. To Cuba alone, it was $5 billion per annum or so--at least a quarter of Cuba's economy was a direct Russian subsidy.

Last edited by DanS on 29-07-2003 at 02:22

	29-07-2003 02:23									#88
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The biggest market in the world is sitting 90 miles from them and they're barred access. The next nearest first world market is Canada. No. Not a major competitive disadvantage at all...

what does Cuba export anyway? cigars? They are only popular in the US because they are illegal, once a ban is lifted, it wouldnt take long for them to lose their prestige.

seriously, they arent disadvantaged competetively because they have no major industry or commerce to export, to speak of, anyway. and having trade with the US, tho it would definately be helpful, would not magically transform it into a nonshithole. Their system is the main thing that is wrong, not the US ban (tho this is definately not helpful, I know this. It is a handicap, dont get me wrong on that).

If they could embrace capitalism, without the corruption of other latin american countries, Cuba would be swimming in prosperity. I am very excited actually, because, as Ive always said, Cuba has soooo much potential, especially in the tourist/vacation/resort industry.

	29-07-2003 02:24									#89
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Sugar.

	29-07-2003 02:25									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, now Cuba's not even rich by Haitian standards.

Haiti is the poorest country in the Western hemisphere and is vying with Bangledesh as poorest country in the world.