12-10-2003 22:13									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I prefer this definition of Strategy if you mind: 1 - Definition of the objectives 2 - Implementation of your forces 3 - Concentration of your forces on a point of your opponent's organization

That definition sounds fine to me.

I also agree that the scope in CTP2 may be to large to account for things like supply by using trucks.

On the other hand I do think that the concept of supply is sound and should be part of most (if not all) strategy games.

	13-10-2003 00:00									#182
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Theres enough logistics going on already, replacing dead and outdated units in long distance wars etc, that can become a real headache in a normal game of civ.

	13-10-2003 03:17									#183
	Increase Your PM Length

I prefer to think of strategy as the identification of goals whereas tactics is the method to achieve the goals.

	13-10-2003 06:12									#184
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I had an idea, why don't we make the CTP2 code work with civ3 graphics, then all the civ3 players will be able to use the Compiled CTP2 freesource thing.

Its just an idea , there would be difficulties, but activision seems to have copyrights on both (though firaxis may have separate legal copyrights). If you don't distribute the civ3 gfx free on the web and use them from the CD then it may be legal/morale etc.

It would be a great way to get a better Moddable Civ3 style game, and easier than redrawing all the graphics.

Perhaps you need a legal / PR team of 2 people at least to advertise and keep control of forums etc and check legal issues.

You do need a name for this project, Project Phoenix maybe, phoenix was a legendary bird that rose from the ashes of dead and came alive again.

REPLIES to comments on my first post here:

I'm sure using the source code will allow far more scenario editing and unit etc editing than any Script Editing program /internal system could manage.

If SLIC could do everything, then why would we need the source code.. thats the reason for making source free/ open. It would be nice to have this project support and expand the power of the CTCP mod editors.
Examples of changes possible would be : allowing only certain types of units to be loaded onto some units, AI controlled mercenary units which you can have partial control over them, units that can carry Items, equipable weapons or quest mission items , units that can speak to you with a script.. like ask you to leave their mountains or give them a) 100 coins b) a city c) neither - then the conversation continues.Cities could be moved , or fly .. they could be able to merge with others populations with mass emigration etc. Suez canals would be something useful to make, though this was possible with civ TOT to a small extent.

CTP2's wonder system seems pretty good, this area should be enhanced.

Strategy is the general supply and control and movement of the whole millitarily, with long term goals , and no micromanaged or low level orders.

Tactics are the low level orders that put the strategy into operation, dealing with specific battles and combat in detail. Tactics were good in Vietnam, where small battles were won, but arguably the general strategy failed and lost the war, because the americans couldn't coordinate their strategy to remove the Vietcongs supplys and forces.

This is a computer game, not a pen paper war game, so it can be far more sophisticated and have a much more realistic game-rule engine.

I think ideally this opensource game would be like Linux, where separate coders can add new sections to modules on it, and still have a working program in the middle of each enhancement or add on / bug fix.

Once the source runs well, it would be nice to split the code into separate modules, like World Generation, Unit Management, City Management etc.
This would allow any coder to add new features or fix things , and allow multiple coders to work at the sime time.. though this system can work best with Object orientated Coding in C Hardcode or by using our own system.

This would allow a true opensource library, and I would like to be involved with that style of project.

The code may be unsuitable to this method of course, but this is the ideal style of coding for any large software project, so it is interesting none-the-less.

WARNING: any compiled code like this could be made into a dangerous virus, so people should only run EXE files if they know they contain safe code.

Lots of testers will be needed to get the code working, there are lots of errors that can occur in such a complex game system, and any changes or fixes may cause serious game crashes.

PS. There may be millions of lines of code , and it will probably be a large amount of work to deal with, I suggest we advertise/ talk on the other forums like Civ3's or Civfanatics to find skilled coders/game designers and CTP experts, etc.
----

Last edited by Admiral PJ on 13-10-2003 at 06:30

	13-10-2003 19:05									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ I had an idea, why don't we make the CTP2 code work with civ3 graphics, then all the civ3 players will be able to use the Compiled CTP2 freesource thing. Its just an idea , there would be difficulties, but activision seems to have copyrights on both (though firaxis may have separate legal copyrights). If you don't distribute the civ3 gfx free on the web and use them from the CD then it may be legal/morale etc.

Civ3 art. In comparison the stuff you see a CTP2 map Civ3 units and goods are smaller than the ones of CTP2, that means less details, only Civ3 cities and Civ3 terrain are bigger then the ones of CTP2, but all the graphics files of Civ3 are 8 bit graphics, well each unit has its own color pallette, but that is not true for terrain cities and goods. And finally what Civ3 units, cities, tileimprovements and goods graphics makes inferior is the lack of tranparency. There are only two possibilities either the good for example is fully visible or not, nothing in between. At least I haven't found any sign that there is something that could encode tranparency in the graphics format.

So I would say it does not has high priority of course if you are have nothing better to do feel free to add this stuff. So I prefer rather some external tools that can convert the graphics format.

quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ If SLIC could do everything, then why would we need the source code..

With slic you can add a lot of features without changing the source, but unfortunatly it can't do everything like figuring out how many units are on a transporter at least, it can't do it directly, even if there is a workaround.

-Martin

	14-10-2003 00:38									#186
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Just a note about using Civ3 units graphics in CTP2 this is almost possible, and will be when SpriteEdit is released.
And making batch import possible for TileEdit might not be too dificult, so IMO making this possible through the game-engine, is a waste of time.

Martin the Dane

	14-10-2003 05:41									#187
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As i said slic can do 90% of you want. The other 10% is what we want to see.
Specially the bugs wich arent few.
And besides the bug problem we still have the not very well implemented features that we do want to see changed: Bad AI, Limited Diplomacy and Lousy Trade System.

Some other stuff cant br added through slic as well. But most of what you said can!

	14-10-2003 18:09									#188
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Most Civ3 Terrain graphics are in my Ekmek Tilefile, although it still needs a little work.

	14-10-2003 18:13									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ so first we need to compile the source code so everyone can play for free!

1) To compile the code first you need to strip all references to Miles (the sound system) wich is a commercial pack and not available with the source code.

2) All resources including sounds, music, graphics, video, etc will not be included either.

3) Not relative but important, all comments are stripped from the source code.

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway If you want to make the game playable for free, then - even assuming the liscence on the source allows it - someone will have to duplicate all the artwork and text, because otherwise that will still be available only to those who have a copy of the game.

4) Any duplication of the artwork and distribution of it with or without the source code (compliled or not) for free or not would be violation of copyright issues. Unless Activision actually release the artwork for free wich is very unlikely as discussed earlier you can forget about it. In addition it could be a reason for not releasing the code at all so no need to discuss or encourage such practices

quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ There may be millions of lines of code

It is said to be around 1.8 million lines of code.

	14-10-2003 19:20									#190
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Keygen 1) To compile the code first you need to strip all references to Miles (the sound system) wich is a commercial pack and not available with the source code. 2) All resources including sounds, music, graphics, video, etc will not be included either. 3) Not relative but important, all comments are stripped from the source code.

From what St Swithin said making the source compile will be much more difficult than that since the comments were in some way crucial. I think that getting it to compile will be a major achievement.

quote: 4) Any duplication of the artwork and distribution of it with or without the source code (compliled or not) for free or not would be violation of copyright issues. Unless Activision actually release the artwork for free wich is very unlikely as discussed earlier you can forget about it. In addition it could be a reason for not releasing the code at all so no need to discuss or encourage such practices

By duplicate I mean make new versions not under copyright, like is being done for FreeDoom, for example. New artwork, together with the source (assuming it is appropriately liscenced, which is of course unlikely) would then allow you to distribute a version without the copyright proiblems. I don't think this is going to happen, which was my point.

	14-10-2003 21:52									#191
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway From what St Swithin said making the source compile will be much more difficult than that since the comments were in some way crucial.

What is meant by "comments" here? If it's comments in the normal programming sense (a line preceded by "//") it should make no difference. Right?

Presumably all the commented lines were just comments when the game was compiled and shipped, so if those comment lines are removed, the should still compile.

Except of course for the Miles problem about which we have heard.

	15-10-2003 00:20									#192
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quote: Originally posted by ahenobarb What is meant by "comments" here? If it's comments in the normal programming sense (a line preceded by "//") it should make no difference. Right? Presumably all the commented lines were just comments when the game was compiled and shipped, so if those comment lines are removed, the should still compile. Except of course for the Miles problem about which we have heard.

Well my best guess is that all comments would mean all the stuff after the "//", which when your dealing with as much code as we are likely to be seeing is IMHO going to become a big deal.
How are we going to be able to tell which part of the code does what(unless its amazingly immaculate code - i havent seen many examples of that ).

I think this is what St_Swithin was on about, without the comments its going to be difficult to know what were looking at.

But we will have to see, it might not be so bad. So who knows?(well except Mr.Ogre et all that worked on it)

	15-10-2003 00:38									#193
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I think this is what St_Swithin was on about, without the comments its going to be difficult to know what were looking at.

Exactly. Except for the Miles (EFM) situation, the code will still compile without problem.

The problem won't be compiling EFM, but knowing what does what in the code when you are making changes.

Just been in and out and thought I had missed something.

	15-10-2003 18:17									#194
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That's not true: as st_swithin said here:

quote: Originally posted by st_swithin As we mentioned before, some of the comments are linked integrally into the code for obfuscation purposes. For example, the Pac-man sprite and code is all written in the comments. (Did I mention Pac-man? We didn't want any trouble from Midway, but nowadays, they haven't a pot to piss in, so they'll probably sue now.) The code will NOT compile without thousands of errors if the lawyers simply stripped out the comments. Don't know what to suggest, unless there are some good IP lawyers out there who can also program gamestate and network and AI.

This is certainly not just saying its hard to understand without comments.

	15-10-2003 19:23									#195
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway This is certainly not just saying its hard to understand without comments.

Well, she has seen and worked on the code, but how can that be possible? If a line has been commented out, it doesn't matter what it says. If the Pacman program was commented out when the game was compiled, then removing the comments should have no effect on whether the game compiles or not.

It gets back to the question of what is meant by comments. If it means lines that have been commented out, I don't understand in a practical sense how removing lines of comments could affect the ability of the game to compile. How can comments be so integrally linked to the operating part of the code that the game won't compile without them?

Again, of course, I haven't seen the code, but can someone clarify this concept?

	15-10-2003 20:08									#196
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The only way I can imagine that comments could cause a source not to compile it would be if they had not the characters // or /* in front of them. Of cource I am not a programmer wizard so I might miss something. I am pretty confident that Mr. Ogre erased what was enclosed within the comments and not just the characters that declare that what follows them is a comment in a compiler.

What probably was lost with the comments were parts of unimplemented code that were inclosed into comments for possible future use like patches, expansions or new releases instead of been deleted in the first place.

	16-10-2003 06:57									#197
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The comments don't affect compiling directly, they are just like notes in a margin on a book, that give you extra information about the work.
If the comments are completely removed it could be difficult understanding what code does what, but the variable names and function names help a lot to understand things.
/* and */ comments can be trickier to remove as if the */ end of comment isn't removed properly some of the code can be commented out too.
Comments are not seen by the compiler, just for helping Coders understand their or others code.

Its a shame the comments won't be there, some of them could have had ideas for new bits to add in CTP2, things that hadn't been compeleted for release.

	17-10-2003 23:01									#198
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Sorry, I have never played CTP2... what exactly are the Pacman sprite and game that st_swithin was talking about? Is it a hidden game-within-game sort of thing, or something else? Or is it something that didn't make it to the final game because it was commented away?

I'm trying to figure out what exactly is meant by "comments linked integrally into the code for obfuscation purposes". The way I see it, the only way you can do this with C++ is to bypass the preprocessor and/or the compiler...

	18-10-2003 00:28									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Leland Sorry, I have never played CTP2...

We'll forgive you

	18-10-2003 16:15									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Leland Sorry, I have never played CTP2... what exactly are the Pacman sprite and game that st_swithin was talking about? Is it a hidden game-within-game sort of thing, or something else? Or is it something that didn't make it to the final game because it was commented away?

I guess it's some kind of easter egg, but to my knowledge noone has ever activated it, so it could indeed not really exist.

quote: I'm trying to figure out what exactly is meant by "comments linked integrally into the code for obfuscation purposes". The way I see it, the only way you can do this with C++ is to bypass the preprocessor and/or the compiler...

...which sounds absurd, but I've seen strange things done in the name of obfuscation. On the other hand, I think someone might have mentioned it if they were using a custom compiler... We do know that MS VC++ 6.0 was used.

I guess we'll find out if and when we get a look at the source. In the mean time we can hope that the whole thing is a misunderstanding and it compiles easily - but I'm not getting my hopes too far up .

	19-10-2003 12:30									#201
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Maybe they used the preprocessor for comments?
Think:
#define THIS_IS_A_COMMENT
#ifdef THIS_IS_A_COMMENT
int pacman;
#endif

	20-10-2003 02:16									#202
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Why do such a think LDiCesare?

	20-10-2003 02:31									#203
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The pacman egg was all in the comments. MrOgre is VERY clever. Of course, he had to take all the comments out, so any reference to it is probably gone.

It was pretty cool, though. I wish we could have left it in.

	22-10-2003 04:57									#204
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Does anyone know the exact compiler that was used? To compile the code properly, we may need the exact same compiler that was used, down to the correct version.

This is important. Without comments in 1.2 million lines of source code, you have no way of knowing if any of those lines of code are workarounds for compiler bugs. If a different compiler is used, the code is very likely not to run properly due to different compiler bugs.

There is also the matter of the stripping of the comments removing compiler directives. Do we know if any of the comments that were removed were compiler directives?

	22-10-2003 05:05									#205
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MS DevStudio 5, I think. Although I'm sure MrOgre would have made sure it still compiled before saying he was done with it.

	22-10-2003 05:12									#206
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MS Dev Studio 6 Pro.

Pyaray

	22-10-2003 06:02									#207
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Hi Py!

	28-10-2003 08:12									#208
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Has anyone used www.SourceForge.net? I know that they host some collaborative projects. I don't know if they need to follow the GPL.

Also, has anyone approached Miles Sound Library about the availability of the old version of their sound library?

Ralph

	28-10-2003 14:55									#209
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I have visited the Miles Sound System site and a version of Miles Sound System can be downloaded, as it seems possible to export and import files and as the sound we need are on the CtP2 CD-ROM, isn't this little software enough?

Tamerlin knows he doesn't have the necessary knowledge and that there are 99,99% chances that the answer is NO but he can help asking a stupid question.

	28-10-2003 20:09									#210
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Thanks for those suggestions, Ralph.

But we're not that organized yet. Hopefully, once the code is actually online more experienced people from the open source community will turn up and want to get involved.

And I hope you find us just as friendly around here as you folks over in Colorado Springs.