13-08-2003 08:03									#1
	The problem with Socialism Tired of ads?

I base my experience on my country, Finland. I'd say we're pretty much working system, as far as Socialism can go, we manage it pretty good. But this is what we're destined to be with our system, nothing but mediocre, EXPENSIVE country with 5 million people who can't afford making babies.

Now, the problem is in our heads. Even in my head. We're so used to it, that we take it for granted (free healthcare, education etc etc). So, we don't want to give those up, thus we hold it tightly. We don't even want to know other options, because it would automatically mean that mystically everything is going to go wrong, and people will die in the streets of hunger and deceases. These are myths. But we believe them.. hell is on loose if we change this ideal system.

Socialism part 1

Now, I don't think our system is that bad, after all it's working for some people, and most people are doing ok.
But the myth is that everyone is doing about ok. That's not true.. there are so many families living under poverty line that it's sickening. They are trapped in our socialist system, that prevents them to get up with working. Because the whole family is working and still living under poverty line. Now, that can't be right. With minimum wage, you can't survive here. Sure, I mean you don't die, but you don't live. Let's say I get minimum and make what.. 1300 euros per month? Now, from this I pay average rent of 700 euros per month, and my apartment sucks some serious hairy balls, if they even fit there.
After all payments, and TAXES that are horrible, I may have maybe 450 euros. With this, I only have paid my rent for average shitty apartment that is not actually luxurious. Take away electricity, water and it leaves me with.. let's say closer to 400 euros.

Now I need to buy food, which is nicely was it the highest or second highest prices in cheap EU. It's good that I'd live alone, because there's no chance in hell I'd be able to support anyone in any way.

I can not own a car. The insurance etc payments are too high to even have it in the parking lot. I couldn't afford it, that plus 1 euro and x cents for a liter of gas, I couldn't even take it for a spin around the houses that only drunk people live in. So, what is my way out? Get a raise? Well let's think about maybe 10 euros per month more? That's great money you know. But then we tax you more. So, in fact you'll get less.

But I still have my free healthcare, so it's ok if I get sick. I hope that I don't get any medication though, because it doesn't cover all my pills that are so cheap in here anyway. I hope I don't get sick, because then I can't go to work, and I'm really screwed.

Then I turn 19 and I have to go to army. It's a payback, because you're not getting salary. Well you're getting 3 euros per day. If lucky, I'll spend a whole year there, not earning money, and waiting to come back to civ life to pay the big taxes and all other crap. Wait a minute? Didn't I just serve on year in the army for free, and in fact loosing more money because I wanted to drink few coffees in that year? Oh.. it doesn't count..

So.. Now that it is established how impossible it is to live human life with minimum wage, like in most countries it must be, let's move on. Nothing shocking yet.

Socialism part 2

So I have advanced to making 2000 euros per month, which IS respectable salary for even adults who do that seriously, and close to average pay. I have few hundred euros more now. I still can't move away from the hellhole I live in. I still can't afford a car, even a crappy one. I'm lucky enough to be living in one of the most expensive countries in the world. But oh well it's good to be best at something. There is only one option. Great nice big loan. Now, I'll be able to buy that car. Let's see what should I get.. what the heck, I'll go crazy and buy a NEW CAR with my loans. How about MB.. Now that would have to be used then, expensive car. HMm.. a nice 95 E220(!!!) Diesel.. only 125 000 thousand km driven.. only 23500€. No wait... 95 crappy model? No new cars for me I'd predict from this. How about an OLD nissan 200sx sports car..92 or 93.. nice red, ONLY 261 000 km driven! That's NOTHING. No extras, hey I get the wheels to go with it. Only 10 000 euros (and I actually have this model myself.. so don't be surprised if I get hugely angry if some punks kick my early 90s nissan..).
Enough about cars.

I injure myself and go to 'free' healthcare. Aside from waiting my turn for more than 2 hours, because group of drunk people living on social check needs to get their weekly Antabus medicine which they throw to the gutter after leaving there, just so they can say they have tried and still recieve the money, I finally get in. My underpaid doctor is glad to see me. I say my ribs hurt really bad. 'Shirt off.. hmm.. does it hurt when I push here?' 'YES!' 'Well you don't seem like it hurts THAT much, just that it hurts' 'No it hurts bad' 'Yeah well.. not as bad as I mean'.
Then he starts to type the report for me and I protest and he goes 'listen buddy, I have patient waiting me as long as the day goes, this is clear thing I'm sure'. It says I'm fine and have suffered a hit that is reflecting pain but nothing serious than that. Next thing I go to massage and this chick discovers I have two broken bones in my ribs. So, what can I do? It's not like suing here is an option. I guess I'll just byte me tounge. Point and what does it have to do with socialism? IT DOESN'T guarantee you'll get treated. THese folks don't give a ****, they're underpaid, working long hours and have to work with many many many mayn patients per day, I bet most of them drunks anyway trying something funny. What do I care if I get a free healthcare that doesn't ****ing work?
It's not the only experience I have. I rather pay the bills and get proper treatment.

The budgets are so low in here, that cuts must be made from everywhere, every year. Stuff like pensions from old people who appreciate it after praising socialism and working hard, school and education, healthcare, public transportation which is btw as expensive as anywhere else in the world, cops.. well everywhere. The system is so frigging expensive, it can't work anymore.

Free education is a myth as well. It's not free. Tuition is free, but you should think about how you handle the nice rents and everything else at the side. The answer is loan, or getting from your parents help, or working. So what? Nothing wrong with that, except that people are still praising on free education. I really don't see the difference who I pay the money to, or have to get the money to. Remember those expensive foods and other goods? It doesn't exactly help the situation.

Now, it is the time when there will be biggest bunch of oldies retiring. Because there was a war in 40s, so there was some baby booming as well. Can we support them and pay their proper pensions promised? Of course not.
This might be the case in most countries as well, but remember those expensive rents and services plus other goodies? It's not like they have any money after that. Like for food and other luxury things.

Socialism part 3

So, because working doesn't actually pay off that good with all the taxing, and salaries that sucks hairy balls to begin with because of many different rotten things in our system, it doens't encourage people to work. Why work, you can get your welfare check easily, and it's enough to buy booze and live in those drunk houses. And because of this attitude, the system gets even more expensive. Then these drunks blow their livers and go for free healthcare, paid by tax money. And it's not like should do work, why go for job that doesn't pay when you get the same amoun of money free?

What you can't do is have a kid before your 30s, too expensive. You can always get a better job. But they'll tax you even more for it. Not very encouraging? One would think if I have to work two 8-hour days in different places, that I actually need the money.

All this leads to, that I can't buy about nothing except the things I really need to live (food). It does good to businesses, waiting for consumer money. People can't afford to consume. And that leads to many things you all know.

Socialism sucks hairy big nipples. People who work their butts off need to be rewarded. People who don't do anything and don't have any disabilities and are drinking their welfare checks.. why should I care about these people. I care, but why should I pay for their booze and healthcare? Ich don't think so.

In the 70s it worked maybe. Now it doesn't.

Everyone still young and able, get a degree and get the hell out of here while you have the chance.

Oh and the attitude problem here? Everyone thinks it's their business to say what people can do with their money. Everyone is bitter and jealous if someone makes it. Who has happiness and success must hide it.

edit: an example. It was just discussed that students should get a raise to their support because of raising expenses (can't get the same things with the same money). It was about 10 million euros. Who thinks that will help students out? The best part is, it was denied. It's that much money.

Last edited by Pekka on 13-08-2003 at 08:17

	13-08-2003 08:19									#2
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To summarise it, it is way too expensive system to work.
And the services it gives you are cut down all the time, so they are not that good anymore either. So what's the point anymore.

	13-08-2003 08:23									#3
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Move to Tennessee. I'll help you get started...

	13-08-2003 08:33									#4
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Oh want to hear the funniest part? People here ARE hardworking, skilled and decent. That's for sure. But we have our own mentality, quite unique one. Now, we blame the drunks and work dodging welfare checking people who don't even want to work for making our tax money go there instead of more important targets in socialism, like that healthcare, to keep the quality good.

This is my point.. listen carefully. Now, these people blame the lazy ones and people who have minor disabilities etc.. they don't realize, that it's none of their business what an individual chooses to do. It's not like they'll get up and work because of morals picked up inside the little head. They have the right to blame. But... what they don't do is blame it on the system that FEEDS this kind of behaviour. So, in fact I say the bigger problem is in the system. Everyone just take care of their own personal lives. Instead of saying 'Why won't you get a job you lazy bum, I'll feed you with my hard working and keep myself down because of it!' they should say 'Well.. don't get a job it's ok with me, it's not like I'm paying your booze'. I say we can and should support unfortunate people, but in limits. Cut down the support a little so they can still survive, and all who have caused their misery by drinking booze and STILL doing it, don't let the door hit you on the way home, no money for you. Give them special treatments to get rid of their problems, and if they don't have the spirits to try hard enough, same thing. And we don't need to do this 100 times when ever the individual feels like now it's the right time. One or two chances is enough. If we give you free treatment to get better to be able to work, and you REFUSE, then go off and die in gutter I don't give a ****.

If you really TRY hard and give a big effort, then it's good and we keep the money coming and work is on its way, you don't mind working on minimum wage now. And it should be that simple. If someone is not cooperating, then fine you're off the support for good, and you're not ever getting it back unless you work for let's say 3 years after this.

The system feeds it and makes itself even more expensive all the time and then you have to see where you direct the money, because there is not enough. And it's always away from something good like that education etc.

So instead of blaming the system they blame the bums and other folks. Mind your own business folks and chance the system, that is keeping you down!

	13-08-2003 08:35									#5
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Lincoln, thanks, but I already have my plans ready . I'm moving though, but I need to get my degree first. That's what I am, a shameless exploiter. Now tax payers should spit on me. I get that 'free' education and then don't pay it back to society with my tax money from underpaid overeducated job that I'm lucky if I get for the rest of my life.

I'm the rotten individual to this system. I don't mind if people blame me. I blame the system.

edit: It is so easy to exploit this system, it just can't work. We can't take care of people by force. If they don't want help, let's give a try anyway but if they really don't cooperate, then they can live in boxes for all I care. No need to keep us rest going forward.

I could come there, to US (which I'm trying to do, maybe in few years!), work my butt off, get a job first before coming hopefully, hope to make it good and have good things going on. If I fail, fine. If I make it, GREAT!

But the point is, I can always come back here and live off from welfare checks . Exploiting? Hell yes. I shouldn't be able to do that!

Last edited by Pekka on 13-08-2003 at 08:42

	13-08-2003 08:41									#6
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I guess that I am a compassionate capitalist. I think we should help people to help themselves. If they refuse the help then they can beg. The problem with socialism is that it encompasses too many people. It can only work well in a small group of like-minded people who enter into the agreement voluntarily.

	13-08-2003 08:43									#7
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Lincoln, I agree with you. And there are ways out of this and make the country florish, but there needs to be some great reforms and changes. We can even stay socialist, but we need to do radical changes what we're not about to do. Everything new is evil.

	13-08-2003 08:44									#8
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"What was wrong with communism wasn't aberrant leadership, it was communism."

- William F. Buckley

	13-08-2003 08:45									#9
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Good quote. Though you naturally know Socialsim != Communism.

I'd say we had good times with it, but we have reached its limits and should move on to different system.

	13-08-2003 08:50									#10
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invade norway, take their oil. problem solved.

	13-08-2003 08:51									#11
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Good post, Pekka.

	13-08-2003 08:58									#12
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yavoon, Norway has lots of oil. They are fairly rich country. We have Nokia. Does it compare to oil? Never.
Listen, we are moving Nokias offices all the time to cheaper countries that have less taxing. Now, Nokia brings a GREAT DEAL of money to our system by the way of taxes. Now, why would they move to another country, they're doing pretty good? Aren't they patriotic?!?!

I'd say they have been hella patriotic. But the ownership of Nokia is in hands of others, for example lots of big American investors. Now, they calculate and think 'wtf are those things doing in Finland, wait a minute we can make this and this much more profit by moving them to country x'. And that's what then happens. Components naturally are made in cheaper countries. This doesn't only bring us less tax money, but more jobless people, and again the system gets more expensive.
Why should I give it a shot and make a business of my own, when gov takes 50% of everything right from the start? But that's the only way to make it, you better have some awesome ideas, great is not enough.

You know what most Finns love? Because when they go travelling, they go 'uuh aah it's cheap!'. They are so thrilled, that they forget why it's cheap. They must think it's cheap because we are coming there. They forget to think 'man we are one expensive country!' and let's look at statistics 'we also make less money in salaries than most!' (in western countries) 'AND we have highest taxings.. this makes us special!'.

It is very hard for our businesses to compete with others, and only the killer concepts can get it working.
You are not encouraged to try here, and you are not rewarded here even if you succeed. That is a huge problem.

and the only thing keeping us kicking is highly skilled folks doing their underpaid jobs.

	13-08-2003 09:00									#13
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There's no way to quickly go to capitalism. It's a shame though because the failure of psuedosocialism might foil Finland's Master Plan.

	13-08-2003 09:04									#14
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Yeah well.. capitalism is integrated to our socialist system pretty much. But it isn't enough. And like I said, it was MAYBE working in earlier decades when there were lots of jobs and less competition, but now it's not working and it's going worse and worse.

The last thing Finns then say is 'well look at Africa' or some other poor region. Well.. yeah we're doing better, so what? Does that mean our system is good? It only means they have it worse.

	13-08-2003 09:08									#15
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And we are slowly moving to class society, with middle class folks and poor folks. Upper class is almost non existent, but there are some.

By changing the system, rewarding for working there might be a bigger gap between the middle class and poor, and more upper class folks, but I think there would be LESS poor folks. So I don't see what the problem is, less poor folks sounds better option to me than everybody competing who can rise their standard of living to average and who gets to be poor.

	13-08-2003 09:10									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka And we are slowly moving to class society, with middle class folks and poor folks. Upper class is almost non existent, but there are some. By changing the system, rewarding for working there might be a bigger gap between the middle class and poor, and more upper class folks, but I think there would be LESS poor folks. So I don't see what the problem is, less poor folks sounds better option to me than everybody competing who can rise their standard of living to average and who gets to be poor.

capitalisms trick isnt redistributing the pie. its making the pie larger.

	13-08-2003 09:12									#17
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hey, at least it's better than the U.S.

	13-08-2003 09:14									#18
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Well, the only way I see socialism working is when everybody has a job. Then I see it can be a good system. But that's unfortunately a dream. We've had a problem with joblessness for years now. What do we now have, couple of hundred thousand jobless folks? That's pretty much for a population of 5 million. Anyway it was something like 8 or 9%. Now, with those figures, the system CAN NOT POSSIBLY WORK. Too expensive!

Now, how can we figure out to get more jobs? It's tough now, since taxes are already very high and everything is expensive, and there's no money, or more tax money, and people losing their jobs all the time, society is not consuming enough because there's not enough money to consume, because the system sucks their money because there are so many jobless people etc. It goes forever like this with a different problem, but it always ends up with the same problem, system can not support itself at all.

	13-08-2003 09:20									#19
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to add on to yavoon's statement... socialist countries can do nothing but re-distribute wealth... they can not generate any.

and i'd like to say its nice to see Lincoln back... good to see another conservative (who is not a libertarian) around.

	13-08-2003 09:23									#20
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quote: That's pretty much for a population of 5 million.

You're forgetting the 12.95 billion Finns hidden in the internet

So THAT'S with all those Finns on the internet...they're just jobless...

The solution to Finland's woes would, obviously, be to cut the welfare and cut taxes. Lower welfare means more incentive not to be a drunken bum. Lower taxes means more incentive for companies to move or stay there.

	13-08-2003 09:24									#21
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AS,

Conservatives are not libertarians - the terms are mutually exclusive, at least when used WRT American political definitions.

	13-08-2003 09:25									#22
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd AS, Conservatives are not libertarians - the terms are mutually exclusive, at least when used WRT American political definitions.

is libertarian an american political definition?

	13-08-2003 09:26									#23
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AS, it gets tougher when everything gets more expensive, international competition toughens up and you get less tax money all along. Keeping up services cost more money every year just to keep them at the same level. To me, this whole thing is impossible to work. Only if everyone works and is like everyone else, then it could work.

Now we have are starting to have a problem of young folks fleeing the country (not in masses YET) because they have discovered something better. They are highly educated and skilled, and most times gets paid few times over what they would in here, and get more with their money because everything is not so outrageously expensive. Young folks are more brave, they feel that why should they pay back for society. They don't identify with that culture so much. Culture of having responsibilities that are unwritten. Few decades it was a sign of a decent fellow to go work at the age of 16, work for the whole life and survive. But that mentality is loosing its grip soon, when people truly realize the facts.
Then they go and act as if its a surprise our prices are so high and salaries so low, and taxing so high compared to any country in this world.

	13-08-2003 09:29									#24
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mrmitchell, the problem is the whole concept won't work without everyone doing 10-hour days. I agree with taxing and stuff, we need to consume more. We don't have that consumer cromosome in us. The younger folks are getting it though. We need to consume a lot more to make this thing running. But we can't do that because there's nto enough money . We can start dropping taxes maybe 1% per decade from income tax, taking only 400549858 years to finally have it in the right direction. So, that's why I say the system is just too expensive to begin with.

	13-08-2003 09:32									#25
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What, do you propose some kind of bloody revolution or something?

Offer some solutions, and NOW youre talking

	13-08-2003 09:37									#26
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I'm afraid we have gone too far and too long to have a good solution working for us, that would affect us that are now living. What is clear to me is that this can not continue. I'm patriotic, but I'm not that patriotic. I have chosen to move away, to another society that shares my beliefs. Maybe show example hopefully what you can do if you make it. Maybe more people then realize that this is not the only way to go.

and I can't afford the revolution.

	13-08-2003 09:45									#27
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And most people won't even go for it. They whine (like me!) all the time about high taxes etc, but they don't exactly want to change the system.
They are ok with working hard and not getting rewarded for it. Because that's all they know. And people in Africa have it worse.

I don't believe in paying the car loans for the rest of my life. And then being taxed for driving it in every corner so much that I have to count my cents. And everyone who disagrees with me saying it's ok why don't you settle for it, I say 'YOU DESERVE BETTER TOO!'. They go with the 'I've been working for 40 years, what you know get your lazy ass to work and stop living off our money with your studying'. I say to them 'EXACTLY! YOU DESERVE MORE YOU HARD WORKING MAN!'. Don't blame me, blame the system! I'm out for every man that is busting their butts off working too long and too hard, I'm out for everyone who can't afford anything. I'm against the system that can not support itself.

	13-08-2003 09:49									#28
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Is Finland even more socialist than Sweden?

Strictly speaking, what you have in Finland is not socialism, but rather a strong form of welfare capitalism (with the emphasis on 'welfare'). 'Socialism' is what we had in the Soviet Union.

	13-08-2003 09:51									#29
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I don't know how socialist Sweden is, but it is very hard for me to imagine it being more socialist than us.

	13-08-2003 10:07									#30
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To make a stupid and not working comparison:

If I work the whole day and my buddy does nothing excepts looks me working and smokes cigarettes, and the job gives 20 dollars, then I expect to get that 20 dollars. Now, I can give some of it to my buddy IF I WANT TO. But God damn if someone makes me do it against my own will. GRRR!