13-08-2003 14:09									#91
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius sure

if u are unaware of the articles www.google.com may be able to help u. learning is powerful!

	13-08-2003 14:13									#92
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yavoon:

"yes yes I see u had a bounce back. ur inflation rate is also beginning to climb. that and u levy an astounding 22% sales tax?"

Who "u"? Austria?

"to call it guesses like I pulled it out my ass only once again(as if the missing of the sarcasm wasn't enuff). how completely radical u r."

You called it a guess yourself.

	13-08-2003 14:17									#93
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler yavoon: "yes yes I see u had a bounce back. ur inflation rate is also beginning to climb. that and u levy an astounding 22% sales tax?" Who "u"? Austria? "to call it guesses like I pulled it out my ass only once again(as if the missing of the sarcasm wasn't enuff). how completely radical u r." You called it a guess yourself.

nope never called it a guess. I did say "my guess is a lot" in reference to subsidies that finland hands out. but I never called finland's economic state or taxation level a guess.

sorry try again. tho it is cute how u r almost solely interested in finding lil tidbits u can write flammable material on.

were u unaware of finlands ongoing attempts to cut taxes to revitalize? its very hard when someone argues in poor faith just to be a ****.

	13-08-2003 14:32									#94
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Last post to you:

You guess around. If you had any coherent opinion or a grip on facts, I would not deride you. And that is what I do - not flaming you.

	13-08-2003 14:37									#95
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Last post to you: You guess around. If you had any coherent opinion or a grip on facts, I would not deride you. And that is what I do - not flaming you.

well as I read more and more articles it appears a relative smorgusborg of ppl agree w/ me. Finland needs tax cuts. infact I am slightly confused as to how u could be unaware of such a relatively easily findable material? to come on and flame me voraciously when google is all but bursting at the seems w/ finnish plans to cut taxes is quite the comedy.

	13-08-2003 20:58									#96
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quote: I'm a liberal, so I won't defend "socialism". So you are studying. How would you reform universities? Would you want to pay full tuition? What would you do about pension systems? What about health care? Would you be better off under such a system? So far you've only complained.

Err, it sounds like what he's suggesting is throwing all the deadbeats off Welfare and using the extra savings from that to cut taxes. At least, that's what I figured from it.

I always thought the US could wise up its own act on welfare too. I mean, get the baby machines and the check-drinkers off the payroll, and either a) give more to the legitamitely disabled or who actually want a job...or b) cut taxes based on the savings. (Or lowering the budget deficit.)

Now, if we had free college and all that in America, THEN we could get somewhere. I'm sure we've got a more likely chance of supporting a Finland-type system than Finland...especially should we get rid of the welfare degenerates.

I can't think of a lot else to say...except that, Pekka being right-wing, I didn't see that coming (Then again, I guess what's left-wing in Finland is treason in America on the other hand)

	14-08-2003 00:10									#97
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Pekka so you are venting your anger at your state, do you really think that is unique? Everyone does that, about every country, because grass is always greener over the fence

I think you people have a good thing going

	14-08-2003 00:12									#98
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Finland, land of Nokia, a country which is among the most wired on Earth and which gave us LINUX.

Yup, definately a mediochre backwater.

	14-08-2003 00:14									#99
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che:

God I hate when people whine like that, Pekka.

	14-08-2003 00:17									#100
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Pekka's not whining...as the signature says, "Loyalty to country always, loyalty to government when it deserves it." I'm sure on the inside, Pekka is really a hypernationalist SuperFinn...just not towards the government. I admit, 10% of 5 million people being unemployed does mean something is seriously wrong.

	14-08-2003 00:23									#101
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Yeah, but the country is hardly in trouble. It's, like, people don't appreciate that they're living in a first world country, While Billions of others scrap the barrel.

	14-08-2003 00:27									#102
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I thought Pekka wen tout of his way to mention he was appreciative of being a Finn, but that he doesn't like the way things are going and wants to change them.

Granted, I only skimmed his posts (tomes!), but that's the impression I get.

Even if you live in a functioning 1st world country, you can call for improvement without it being "whining."

-Arrian

	14-08-2003 00:28									#103
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Quite winining Pekka.

	14-08-2003 00:29									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Yeah, but the country is hardly in trouble. It's, like, people don't appreciate that they're living in a first world country, While Billions of others scrap the barrel.

this is exactly the attitude pekka is talking about, the, "oh, but look how much better we have it in africa"

what i gathered from pekkas post is not complaining, just the problems of finnland, adn if they can deal with them, their country would be EVEN greater. who wants to be mediocre or even good if you can be great?

	14-08-2003 00:30									#105
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell 10% of 5 million people being unemployed does mean something is seriously wrong.

Their unemployment numbers don't measure the same thing as our unemployment numbers.

	14-08-2003 00:31									#106
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My explanation to the high unemployment is that most of the unemployment is due to the so called "structural unemployment". There are of course other reasons too like the bad employment policy practised in finnish ecomomy. The short term profit expectations in companies, resulting in needless job cuts. The superideology of profitability...

	14-08-2003 00:33									#107
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he must have spent a lot of time writing his posts and i htink hed appreciate feedback on his ideas, rather than being called a whiner because he sees where his country is failing and calling something to be done about it. I dont think anyone else here appreciates being called a whiner because they see problems in their country and are addressing them, because almost all of you, especially you left wing americans, do it all the time. and yall get pissed at the likes of slowwhand calling you whiney meatheads that are welcome to leave.

	14-08-2003 00:33									#108
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quote: The superideology of profitability

?

	14-08-2003 00:34									#109
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It sucks.

	14-08-2003 00:34									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman this is exactly the attitude pekka is talking about, the, "oh, but look how much better we have it in africa"

This is the same arguement conversatives always throw at liberals and progressives when we complain about conditions in America. If it's BS for us, it's BS for you too.

And as I pointed out, Finland is far from being mediocre. In point of fact, made in Norway / Sweden / Finland / Denmark usually means you are getting a high quality product. Volovo / Saab / Nokia / Haagen-Daaz / Lurpak etc.

	14-08-2003 00:35									#111
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laurentius

	14-08-2003 00:37									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman I dont think anyone else here appreciates being called a whiner because they see problems in their country and are addressing them,

Don't let the door hit you on the way to Cuba.

	14-08-2003 00:38									#113
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quote: This is the same arguement conversatives always throw at liberals and progressives when we complain about conditions in America. If it's BS for us, it's BS for you too.

im not conservative... perhaps thats why you put the ? I am not liberal either.... i want to be a progressive

	14-08-2003 00:38									#114
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Yes Arrian. The superideology of profitability. The universal will to make everything as profitable as possible. In private sector as well as in public sector.

	14-08-2003 00:39									#115
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People take my whining on too negative note.
Lots of arguments, excellent!

Azazel, I have repeatedly said, that I'm grateful to be born in here and have good things going on. What I'm saying is we have reached our maximum potential now, or very soon, and our problems will get bigger because of our system.

I have never said we needed to adopt American style. I have said, that it wouldn't prolly work here. I've said, we need to come up with a new modified system that fits us. We have reached our limits, there's not much more money to go around. We need to create more money, to go around.

I hardly consider myself right wing nut. In here, Finland, I might be considered right wing, but that's only when it comes to this. Don't mix my beliefs with kicking out immigrants and refugees, like most real right wing nuts are believing in. I don't have a problem with immigrants or refugees.

We didn't bring the world Linux. Linus Torvalds was a Finn, sure. He worked the OS in Uni here, sure. But it's hardly a Finnish thing. It's more like international project, that happened to have a Finn in lead. That's all there is to it. Sure, it contributes to the world, but it's because of the effort of international programming etc community.

As for me being a right wing nut, brainwashed.. well I don't know. You sound like the spokesperson for SDP. Now those folks sure are nuts. You know who I voted for in election? A liberal dude. That's right. So there's your right wing nuttiness. Though I voted for him only because I know him in IRL and I think he has some good thoughts, though I don't agree with everything.

That's typical SDP to give an image that everything is peachy. YES services makes the taxes high. But the services are also getting worse, and thats why I think what's the point anymore. It is too expensive to support itself, we need everyone working in able to make this system work to it's full potential, or else it's just one sorry ass thing that never worked but people had faith in.

We need more money to go around. How we do that? Well if I had the 100% working answer to this, I'd be pretty famous guy. But I haven't figured out, and it seems there's no one in this country that has figured it out, so I figure we need to change the system.

What we can do right now is cut off loads of folks and work dodgers off from getting money. We must help them, but not by giving free money away. I know there has been efforts to help folks, but it's not working. I know, I was out of job and didn't have a place to study for a while. And no, I was not eligible for welfare check.
I was forced to go to study something I really didn't want to. That cut me off from everything, because I didn't want to. And rightfully so, after that I even wouldn't deserve the support.

And what comes to third world countries, it's not an excuse for us to not make it. Even when people are doing so much worse in other places of this world, I don't see why we need to hold us back. We can still help them like we do. One thing doesn't make the other thing impossible.

	14-08-2003 00:40									#116
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Yes Arrian. The superideology of profitability. The universal will to make everything as profitable as possible. In private sector as well as in public sector.

i dont think that is true... in the private sector, yes, but the public sector too?

	14-08-2003 00:40									#117
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quote: this is exactly the attitude pekka is talking about, the, "oh, but look how much better we have it in africa"

Indeed, and this is one of the most damaging mindsets a nation can have. If you don't have your self improvement first (okay, your dignity and respect first and that second) then you're never going to improve or you're just going to be an unsustainable charity.

quote: Their unemployment numbers don't measure the same thing as our unemployment numbers.

I'm not an economics genius...would you mind telling me how their unemployment numbers aremeasured? (Vel, DanS, MtG...here's another chance to show off )

	14-08-2003 00:43									#118
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laurentius, and I agree with you there. People losing jobs all the time because businesses trying to maximize profits. Businesses not raising the salaries of workers where they should be comparing how much the business is going forward and making profit. Instead of raising the salaries of workers, they cut their spots making more profit. Or invest in non succesful venues in other countries. They are not even raising it to the level how inflation and everything else is going, well they didn't in the mid 90s. And everything is more expensive, so people can afford even less. Like 'I remember when bus ride costed a dime'.. 'yeah well I still make the same salary'.

	14-08-2003 00:44									#119
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If no one ever wanted to do anything to raise the standars of the living, I guess we'd be still living in caves hunting bears. After all, that's good life for most if they don't ever want to go for something better.

	14-08-2003 00:47									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman im not conservative... perhaps thats why you put the ? I am not liberal either.... i want to be a progressive

actually, i take this back, i think im just a hard-ass liberal