13-08-2003 10:08									#31
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond 'Socialism' is what we had in the Soviet Union.

No, thats right-wing communism. Stalinism.

I'm too busy to read through your long posts. If you can summarize....

	13-08-2003 10:10									#32
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Comrade Tassadar, to put it short, socialist system (at least the one we have) can not support itself, because it is too expensive. It keeps it wheels running, but it has lost the points why people wanted socialism in the first place in reality when it reaches it limits. We have reached ours.

	13-08-2003 10:15									#33
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Can't you guys put an oil rig off the shore like they did in Norway and not have to worry about money?

	13-08-2003 10:20									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Comrade Tassadar, to put it short, socialist system (at least the one we have) can not support itself, because it is too expensive. It keeps it wheels running, but it has lost the points why people wanted socialism in the first place in reality when it reaches it limits. We have reached ours.

Whats wrong with Finland (other than the obvious)? It still pretty high on the Humanitarian Delveopment Index, etc etc...

	13-08-2003 10:23									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Whats wrong with Finland (other than the obvious)? It still pretty high on the Humanitarian Delveopment Index, etc etc...

it is choking in its own taxes and stagnate.

	13-08-2003 10:23									#37
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Read the earlier posts . But in general, I'd say there's nothing wrong with us.. I think I'm lucky to be born here and have good conditions and good childhood. There's no chance to make it here though. We are not a land of opportunity. I believe that if I work hard and succeed, I should be rewarded for it and get what I deserve. And so should everyone else. Those who are not interested about anything else than boozing around and passing out shouldn't deserve what they're deserving now (free booze money). I believe everyone should get what they deserve. We can still help people and we should, but not this way.

And the way we are going, it's only getting worse and worse. Services are more expensive every year, and the quality lower. More people lose jobs all the time, nothing real gets done about it. We have reached our maximum limits, and it's not working FOR us anymore.

	13-08-2003 10:34									#38
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Well, you are apparently right that your 'welfare capitalism' needs some adjustment. However, if you overdo and move as far as copying the American version of welfare capitalism, this may not work for Finland either. The thing is that if the American system is enforced on Finland, 95% of the population will see their actual living standards decline. The human development index of Finland (as e.g. made out regularly by the UN) will decline too. On the other hand, a payoff for such a reform would be more opportunities for the active part of the population, and perhaps higher competitiveness of the country. Now it all comes down to national mentality. The American mentality apparently values freedom and opportunities more than well-being of the 95% of the population. Is this the case in Finland? I doubt so. The welfare component has been too much ingrained into the European mentality. Besides, Finland is a small country, and therefore doesn't need too much competitiveness. It won't be able to fully capitalize on it anyways due to the mere smallness of the country. Thus, it seems to me, for small countries it is more natural to go socialist than for big ones.

	13-08-2003 10:38									#39
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No, American style adopted wouldn't work here either. We'd need to make a new modified system what would work for us. We don't have to go to extremes, like most Finns would think 'yeah that means if I lose my job I'll be dead in a week!' or other myths and extremes.

Small country and small.. so what? It's not the size of the dog in fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

	13-08-2003 10:40									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka No, American style adopted wouldn't work here either. We'd need to make a new modified system what would work for us. We don't have to go to extremes, like most Finns would think 'yeah that means if I lose my job I'll be dead in a week!' or other myths and extremes. Small country and small.. so what? It's not the size of the dog in fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

america is not the capitalist extreme. =D. I think u'll b fine, get the EU to give u some money.

	13-08-2003 10:42									#41
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EU is not the answer. Rotten system here is. It needs to be terminated ASAP. Out with the old, in with the new!

	13-08-2003 10:43									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka EU is not the answer. Rotten system here is. It needs to be terminated ASAP. Out with the old, in with the new!

fine ask them for money to change ur system!

	13-08-2003 10:45									#43
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Why ask for money, we're doing just FINE! Don't get greedy there.. .

	13-08-2003 10:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Why ask for money, we're doing just FINE! Don't get greedy there.. .

if u dont get greedy u'll never be capitalist!

=D

	13-08-2003 10:49									#45
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Nope, we enjoy collective misery. I get my joy from knowing that no one is doing better than I am, so that kind of makes me happy. I'm at the top of the world mom, WOOHOO!

	13-08-2003 10:49									#46
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interesting post pekka

	13-08-2003 10:51									#47
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Kman, well the situation is not THAT horrible, people eating out of dumpster etc, but you know it's not that good either. Our twisted mentality keeps us from reaching and wanting more.

	13-08-2003 10:55									#48
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i stand by my belief that a capitalist soup with some socialist spice is the best, rather than the socialist soup with capitalist spice

	13-08-2003 11:01									#49
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Kramerman, My thoughts exactly!

Our systems feeds the mentality of being jealous too. High prices, high taxing, if someone has a new car, he must be a criminal or a cheater. You know you'll never be able to do that, no matter how hard you work. And when most people are jealous, they think others businesses and how they spend their money is somehow their business too. When it's not. So I should also feel guilty about making it, if I'm proper citizen.

I don't want to help ALL people. I want to help people that I want to help. I don't want to give one dime to boozers. I want to give a dollar to someone missing a leg and not being able to work because of that. I don't want to give one dime to someone who took 100 000 loan to buy new car and live like a king for a year, losing their job and not being able to pay the loan and living of welfare checks. I want to give a dollar to the one who didn't have that car, but was unfortunate in some other way. I want that the rules of getting checks from different departments are STRICT and with clear rules, so that I know my tax money is going to the right address, not to see work dodgers hanging around the mall zipping coffee and thinking new ways to skim more off the system.

	13-08-2003 11:14									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I think I'm lucky to be born here and have good conditions and good childhood. There's no chance to make it here though. We are not a land of opportunity. I believe that if I work hard and succeed, I should be rewarded for it and get what I deserve.

Ever tried it, apart from working hard on the whine?

	13-08-2003 11:16									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Kramerman, My thoughts exactly! Our systems feeds the mentality of being jealous too. High prices, high taxing, if someone has a new car, he must be a criminal or a cheater. You know you'll never be able to do that, no matter how hard you work. And when most people are jealous, they think others businesses and how they spend their money is somehow their business too. When it's not. So I should also feel guilty about making it, if I'm proper citizen. I don't want to help ALL people. I want to help people that I want to help. I don't want to give one dime to boozers. I want to give a dollar to someone missing a leg and not being able to work because of that. I don't want to give one dime to someone who took 100 000 loan to buy new car and live like a king for a year, losing their job and not being able to pay the loan and living of welfare checks. I want to give a dollar to the one who didn't have that car, but was unfortunate in some other way. I want that the rules of getting checks from different departments are STRICT and with clear rules, so that I know my tax money is going to the right address, not to see work dodgers hanging around the mall zipping coffee and thinking new ways to skim more off the system.

jealousy and guilt are cornerstones of socialism!

	13-08-2003 11:16									#52
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Herr Grunnespanner ist bunt

	13-08-2003 11:16									#53
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Hersh, what is your problem? These are exactly the kinds of comments I was talking about. Yeah I know, people in Africa have it worse. Did I just say I'm grateful for what I have been given BY my parents?

What's your point. You have no point. Get out of this thread.

Did you just completely missed out my point of rewarding the hard working guys?

	13-08-2003 11:20									#54
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I wonder what your problem is, Pekka. What exactly are you doing?

You're such an ardent complainer one could think you're austrian.

	13-08-2003 11:22									#55
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again, what is your point? If you have nothing to say about the subject of this thread, then simply get out.

	13-08-2003 11:28									#56
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And my problem is not personal, my problem is rotten system that is not working anymore for the people. I have been lucky enough to have all the support I needed from my parents. If it's broken, you should fix it.

Listen, you don't know much about me, what I've done, or tried doing. When I attack the system, you attack me personally. Defend socialism instead. That would show you actually have something to say instead of *****ing about something else. I'm a student at the moment, thanks for caring.

I'm off to bed now, continue later.

	13-08-2003 11:32									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka And my problem is not personal, my problem is rotten system that is not working anymore for the people. I have been lucky enough to have all the support I needed from my parents. If it's broken, you should fix it. Listen, you don't know much about me, what I've done, or tried doing. When I attack the system, you attack me personally. Defend socialism instead. That would show you actually have something to say instead of *****ing about something else. I'm a student at the moment, thanks for caring. I'm off to bed now, continue later.

don't worry so much. hersho is extraordinarily antagonistic.

	13-08-2003 11:36									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka And my problem is not personal, my problem is rotten system that is not working anymore for the people. I have been lucky enough to have all the support I needed from my parents. If it's broken, you should fix it. Listen, you don't know much about me, what I've done, or tried doing. When I attack the system, you attack me personally. Defend socialism instead. That would show you actually have something to say instead of *****ing about something else. I'm a student at the moment, thanks for caring. I'm off to bed now, continue later.

I'm a liberal, so I won't defend "socialism". So you are studying. How would you reform universities? Would you want to pay full tuition? What would you do about pension systems? What about health care? Would you be better off under such a system? So far you've only complained.

	13-08-2003 11:37									#59
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon don't worry so much. hersho is extraordinarily antagonistic.

Only towards people who talk bollocks.

	13-08-2003 11:42									#60
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Only towards people who talk bollocks.

I'm shocked u dont have a throw down w/ urself then.