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HershOstropoler
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Tough challange over a network.
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Comrade Tassadar
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quote:
Originally posted by Kramerman
i stand by my belief that a capitalist soup with some socialist spice is the best, rather than the socialist soup with capitalist spice |
I stand by my Indian heritage and think that Socialist Soup with a *TON* of capitalist spices is best.
But lately my thinking has changed to a progressive switch between Socialism Soup to Capitalism Soup and back again. Over and over. Because capitalism does make a country richer, but those whom are at the bottom will only continue to fall.
Socialism eats itself very slowly. Capitalism restores what Socialism ate.
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laurentius
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Helsinki, Finland
Jun 2001
time: 07:30
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Whine, whine, whine. That's about all the right wing nuts like Pekka do in this country these days, apart from cutting welfare, trying to lower minimum wage, cut taxes from the rich and pursuit their own good over others. Oh yeah, and those same right wing whackos are the ones responsible for the short term profit expectations in companies, resulting in needless job cuts. Yeah you are taking all the benefits of our welfare system, but don't want to contribute. You know having all the services we have for free -or almost free- results in high taxes.
Finland is socialist? Gimme a break, it looks like you don't even know what sosialism is. Having Social Democratic Party in the government and having Social Security does not make us socialists.
Why don't you stop your delusional whining and move to east europe where anything is possible and with all the money einstein like you would make and you could buy everything without having to pay much taxes. What a paradise! My advice to you is though..Dont believe the Hype!
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by laurentius
Whine, whine, whine. That's about all the right wing nuts like Pekka do in this country these days, apart from cutting welfare, trying to lower minimum wage, cut taxes from the rich and pursuit their own good over others. Oh yeah, and those same right wing whackos are the ones responsible for the short term profit expectations in companies, resulting in needless job cuts. Yeah you are taking all the benefits of our welfare system, but don't want to contribute. You know having all the services we have for free -or almost free- results in high taxes.
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I think thats kind of the point. ppl are taking all the benefits of the welfare state. but there aren't enuff ppl to bear the load.
u suggest he stop his whining and choke down his taxes?
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by laurentius
"choke down in taxes" is proverb used by the right wing. I suggest him some reality tripping instead of believing all the populists crap hes being brainwashed with. |
ur fundamental problem remains. high levels of taxation and a large socialist base stagnate an economy. regardless of how much u dislike his ideaology.
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HershOstropoler
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High levels of taxation don't necessarily stagnate an economy. The more important questions are how the two areas that tax revenue goes to are structured.
- As income of the private sector; depends on the redistributive effect
- As government consumption; depends on the effeciency of procuring those goods and services
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
High levels of taxation don't necessarily stagnate an economy. The more important questions are how the two areas that tax revenue goes to are structured.
- As income of the private sector; depends on the redistributive effect
- As government consumption; depends on the effeciency of procuring those goods and services |
how will u remain internationally competitive? how will local companies taxed to the bone compete w/ hong kong? will u just tarriff the crap outta the rest of the world? u end up paranoid about losing jobs abroad so u shut off thinking that if u just make stuff for each other that'll work good enuff. but then u no longer have the economic base to keep pace w/ the rest of the planet technologically.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by laurentius
Well, we do have relatively high taxes, not highest in europe though. And I do dislike his ideology. But I don't understand your description of our economy as "large socialist base stagnating an economy" Look, we don't have any socialist bases here. We don't have a stagnate economy. Instead we are the second most competitive and growth potential economy in the world. Finland in fact has very cheap labour considerign it's high educational level. The big companies whine because it's their job to be greedy and try to get better deals all the time. It's just normal to lobby your intrests and threaten the government of moving out of the country. Check the facts about finnish economy before talking |
yah I dont know jack about finland. I was just going on what ppl say. dont all scandinavian countries have very high tax rates?
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HershOstropoler
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"how will u remain internationally competitive?"
How is "competitiveness", whatever it is exactly, affected by this? Your only point in that regard is:
"how will local companies taxed to the bone compete w/ hong kong?"
Apart from the "taxed to the bone" histrionics, taxes are on earnings. If they are not competitive and don't earn anything, they pay no taxes. Earnings are just a form of income, and those tax rates are usually lower than those on the income from labour. Effective earnings taxation is about 20-30 % in most OECD countries IIRC. No idea what the rates are in Hongkong, but any advantage will be small.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"how will u remain internationally competitive?"
How is "competitiveness", whatever it is exactly, affected by this? Your only point in that regard is:
"how will local companies taxed to the bone compete w/ hong kong?"
Apart from the "taxed to the bone" histrionics, taxes are on earnings. If they are not competitive and don't earn anything, they pay no taxes. Earnings are just a form of income, and those tax rates are usually lower than those on the income from labour. Effective earnings taxation is about 20-30 % in most OECD countries IIRC. No idea what the rates are in Hongkong, but any advantage will be small. |
obviously u have the foresight of a blind mule in a lightning storm.
when a company looks at where to build its next plant. or if it should move its current plant. do u think it'll be like "its ok if the taxes are really high cuz we don't have to pay them if we dont make any money!"
or perhaps "hey man, if we move here then import it to our consumers we could make more money."
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yavoon
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hrrm prolly not the time. I'm just going to have to trust someone and argue on that. I know more about norway, is there really any difference? *ducks*
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HershOstropoler
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You're either half illiterate or trying to be annoying.
You're changing the topic from competitiveness of companies to that of locations. There are many, many more factors than taxes in determining location. Labour costs/productivity being a crucial one. Social and political stability. Infrastructure. Distance from key markets. Etc etc.
How many european companies are moving to Hongkong?
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
You're either half illiterate or trying to be annoying.
You're changing the topic from competitiveness of companies to that of locations. There are many, many more factors than taxes in determining location. Labour costs/productivity being a crucial one. Social and political stability. Infrastructure. Distance from key markets. Etc etc.
How many european companies are moving to Hongkong? |
not the ones u give subsidies to thats for sure! ur arguments are inane. yes all those factors matter, but in the end the company will and should do what makes it most profitable. cuz thats why companies exist. if u tax them heavily they will move offshore. it doesn't matter if ur mcdonalds workers have bachelors degrees or not.
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HershOstropoler
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quote:
Originally posted by yavoon
not the ones u give subsidies to thats for sure! ur arguments are inane. |
Yeeees, how much do we subsidize companies? Btw, the most efficient subsidy is taxing earnings below the general rate of income taxation. You know, that's a tax subsidy.
"it doesn't matter if ur mcdonalds workers have bachelors degrees or not."
You have a heavy dosage of ideology, but don't understand the most basic economic arguments. That comment is completely beside the issue.
Forget it, useless talking to you.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Yeeees, how much do we subsidize companies? Btw, the most efficient subsidy is taxing earnings below the general rate of income taxation. You know, that's a tax subsidy.
"it doesn't matter if ur mcdonalds workers have bachelors degrees or not."
You have a heavy dosage of ideology, but don't understand the most basic economic arguments. That comment is completely beside the issue.
Forget it, useless talking to you. |
do u have to make claims every post? if ur arguments were so grand they would not need to always be proceeded by random insults.
how much do u subsidize companies? my guess is a lot. this whole thread was started on how finland's economy has stagnated. young ppl are leaving and the tax burden is increasing. do u disagree w/ this?
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HershOstropoler
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Sigh...
"how much do u subsidize companies? my guess is a lot."
That's your problem. Only guesses, not facts.
"this whole thread was started on how finland's economy has stagnated."
Yeah, it just recovered strongly after the recession that was largely due to the collapse of the USSR.
quote:
The volume of GDP was 41 per cent higher in June 2002 than in March 1993 at the depth of the recession |
http://www.tilastokeskus.fi/tk/tp_t...02/185kane.html
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Sigh...
"how much do u subsidize companies? my guess is a lot."
That's your problem. Only guesses, not facts.
"this whole thread was started on how finland's economy has stagnated."
Yeah, it just recovered strongly after the recession that was largely due to the collapse of the USSR.
http://www.tilastokeskus.fi/tk/tp_t...02/185kane.html |
they aren't guesses, and ur venomous posts are becoming dull. yes yes I see u had a bounce back. ur inflation rate is also beginning to climb. that and u levy an astounding 22% sales tax? thats impressive. its 4% here.
either way I was merely going on what pekka told me. to call it guesses like I pulled it out my ass only once again(as if the missing of the sarcasm wasn't enuff). how completely radical u r. and how easily and quickly u drop to mere flames.
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yavoon
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8 seconds of google searching gave like 5 articles on plans to cut income and corporate taxes in finland. weakaned economic futures, and worries that corporations and factories may move overseas.
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13-08-2003 11:42
ur rampant antagonism made us immediately assume the worst and reply off that assumption. we shall have to immediately make repairs to the ship.
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