14-08-2003 00:48									#121
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And like the thread title says: 'The problem with Socialism'. Now, if that's not a hint that I'll be doign some whining, then I don't know what is. I have my rights to critizise the system as you have the rights to defend it.

	14-08-2003 00:49									#122
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I agree with the fact that unemployment benefits are too high. That money could've been used in a better way.

	14-08-2003 00:51									#123
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I also have the right to hate you for that.

	14-08-2003 00:54									#124
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Pekka, 100% employment is not realistic. It's not evengood to the economy. There will always be people not fit for working, people who cant work for some reason. For them, the benefits are not too high.

	14-08-2003 00:55									#125
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Azazel, sure you do have the right to hate me for a reason you come up with, but at least we agree with something .

The biggest problem is the lack of money. Now, socials and other lefties think we can still work this wihtin our system, where as I don't believe it can. And there are many choices and models we could go for, not necessarily far from what we have now. I was never talking about extreme capitalism, but I guess most people thought that from the beginning.

	14-08-2003 00:56									#126
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laurentius, sure 100% is not possible. After all we don't want to turn communist . And I don't say that unfortunate people who simply can not work because of disabilities etc are making too much money. They can hardly live with their crappy checks because their living can be more expensive than people who don't have those disabilities. I never claimed that we should cut off these people, I clearly stated that unfortunate people (For example people with disabilities) needs to have money coming in. In fact, I think they're getting too little.

	14-08-2003 00:57									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman i think im just a hard-ass liberal

No such animal. Liberals have a congenital defect which prevents them from having a spine. One must be either progressive or conservative to have a spine and thus be a hard ass.

	14-08-2003 00:57									#128
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maybe I should've used the word "resent".

	14-08-2003 01:00									#129
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Well, you can resent me if you want. I don't resent you, and I find it sad that you have to resent me because we disagree with some issues.

	14-08-2003 01:00									#130
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I dont see any solution from you Pekka. First off you say 100% employment would solve some problems, then you say that you dont want that, cos you are afraid of commies.

	14-08-2003 01:02									#131
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laurentieus, no you got me wrong. 100% employment can be maybe reached in communist model, I don't know but I think that's the closest one to have it that high.
I said, that our systems needs everyone working so it works like it's supposed to work, but since we can't have everyone working, the system can't work either.

	14-08-2003 01:05									#132
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hmmm, so your trying to say that...?

	14-08-2003 01:06									#133
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That the system is too expensive to support itself.

	14-08-2003 01:07									#134
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I don't hate you and don't resent you. I just think what you've said is VERY VERY wrong!

hope this clears things up. *sigh*

	14-08-2003 01:08									#135
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Are you saying that our system is communistic and that some other kind of system where not so many people would have to work is better?

	14-08-2003 01:08									#136
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Like rampant capitalism? Social Darwinism?

	14-08-2003 01:09									#137
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My 'whining' especially in the first posts are my personal experiences and observations. I'm attacking socialism. So I gather bunch of things that are sucking hairy nipples so people can see my points.

	14-08-2003 01:12									#138
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Well this is where I'm getting to. You point out the flaws, but have no cures. Thats what I call typical righ wing/populist rant.

	14-08-2003 01:12									#139
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Azazel, I know you love me you big boy

laurentius, nah.. We're not even close to commies. I already have stated in this thread that socialism!=communism.

No I'm not saying we need a model where not so many people have to work. It would be even worse then.

	14-08-2003 01:13									#140
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laurentius, I have already given some little things we can improve NOW. It's still within our system and we could release some money to more important targets like that healhcare and rest of the services we hold so high.

	14-08-2003 01:14									#141
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And where would we get all the money from? Tax cuts?

	14-08-2003 01:16									#142
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No. Eventually we'd go for tax cuts so we can improve consuming which then has positive effects to many things. The money we have, it's not enough now, but we can direct it better. I already said let's cut off all the boozers that don't want help. And by help I mean getting rid of their real problem (alcoholism), not the problem of getting money to buy more booze.

	14-08-2003 01:19									#143
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Oh no! That would hurt St. Petersburg's economy! I protest!

	14-08-2003 01:22									#144
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The folks who buy booze from St Petersburg are mostly working families etc. The taxing for alcohol is btw lowering, because of EU. I don't see that boozers now buy something else with their money than booze, they just buy more booze.

	14-08-2003 01:26									#145
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Actually, I like your cigarette, and booze high taxes. I think we should increase them, as well. Our taxing is at "Crazy" level, not "Outrageous", like yours.

	14-08-2003 01:29									#146
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Azazel, I'm undecided if we should keep them high or lower taxes from there. I surely think we have more important targets where we could lower the taxing from first.

THe problem is, that folks go to Estonia, cheap booze being one of the great factors of going, but they also spend money there to other things as well, which is potentially out of our pool. So in a way I understand why they do it, but I'm undecided if it's good or not. It is to be seen.

	14-08-2003 01:31									#147
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But I see this ultimately only working against our system, I just don't see how people would drink less when prices go down. And more people will get sick, businesses losing effective working days because more folks are taking days off, more people going to need doctors help etc etc... it's double edged sword, so I don't know which is better.

	14-08-2003 01:45									#148
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell ...would you mind telling me how their unemployment numbers are measured?

Finland's unemployment rate according to Eurostat was 9.3 % in June, and that nr is, like US unemployment rates, based on the ILO standard.

	14-08-2003 01:48									#149
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Wait a minute Pekka, doesn't Finland rate high in quality of life lists? If Greece is globally in the 28th position or so, at least economically, then Finland must have broken the top of the list.

	14-08-2003 01:50									#150
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Yeah we still do. But it'll change soon.