02-09-2003 23:14									#121
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Your explanation simply doesn't make any sense. It boils down to "but that's just silly, so it's not religion". The only reason you think your own religion isn't silly is the reasons you have to cling onto your faith. Probably a way to rationalize life, a meaning to an otherwise pointless existance, and to know that somebody will always been watching out for you. Or something to that effect.

If religion is for nourishment of the mind and the soul, why do so many of them have such a problem with gay people?

Some religions may be for that, but not all. And ALL of them are equally silly for what they're based on. If you want nourishment for the mind and the soul, listen to Enya or something.

	02-09-2003 23:19									#122
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the classic story in this regard, was Franz Rosenzwieg.

A young philosophy student in turn of the century Vienna, raised in an essentially irreligious Jewish household, he was persuaded by friends to convert to Christianity. He decided to do so the way the ancient christians had, by experiencing orthodox Judaism first (romantic antiquarianism or subconcious reluctance?) He went to a tiny, ultra-orthodox synagogue for Yom Kippur. The intensity of the worship experience convinced him to explore Judaism more thoroughly. NOT an idea, or an argument, but an experience. He went on to become arguably the greatest Jewish philiosopher of the 20th Century.

To me religious education is not so much teaching books, as it is pursuing such opportunities for such experiences. A particularly challenging task, if one is NOT willing to follow the fundies, or cut off from the noise of the modern world.

	02-09-2003 23:21									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Asher If you want nourishment for the mind and the soul, listen to Enya or something.

need spiritual nourishment, go buy a CD. Now who's been efficiently brain washed? Once we had the idols in the marketplace - now the marketplace IS the idol.

	02-09-2003 23:27									#124
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I also think while Judaism may not be relevant to young sophie, this will give you insight into education and choice.

I believe it was William James who said that some religious choices were possible to a given person while some were not. So he could choose between Christianity and free thinking - but becoming a Sunni muslim is beyond his cultural world.

Those of us in religious minorities are aware of this - leave my daughter to the general culture and she may have a choice between Protestantism, and atheism. But given the nature of the culture, Judaism is likely to be off her radar - UNLESS we make it a special point to offer it to her. So you must think about the general culture you will be raising your daughter in, and the choices it presents, and if it will tend to exclude choices it is important to you that she have. And what kind of upbrining is required to make sure she has that choice.

	02-09-2003 23:30									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Asher If religion is for nourishment of the mind and the soul, why do so many of them have such a problem with gay people?

If political parties are for improving the state for all citizans, why do so many of them have such a problem with gay people? Some are different, but not all.

	02-09-2003 23:32									#126
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Asher: so what do you believe?

	02-09-2003 23:33									#127
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Four LOTM posts in a row?

Christ on crutches....

	02-09-2003 23:40									#128
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I was raised in a completely secular household, and look how good I turned out.

We were winning until you said that!!!

	03-09-2003 00:05									#129
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark If political parties are for improving the state for all citizans, why do so many of them have such a problem with gay people? Some are different, but not all.

Because they're religious! Seriously, all of the mainstream political parties that give the most **** to Gay people are the most religious ones.

Perfect example.

	03-09-2003 00:07									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Asher: so what do you believe?

That Bill Gates is God, and we are all his disciples.

	03-09-2003 00:11									#131
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Cult of Amun! Cult of Amun!

Our god's the fun god, our god's the sun god. Ra Ra Ra!

	03-09-2003 00:13									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Because they're religious! Seriously, all of the mainstream political parties that give the most **** to Gay people are the most religious ones. Perfect example.

You have Jewish religious parties in Canada? Like what, the Bund? the Yiddish Volkspartei? The Labor Zionists?

	03-09-2003 00:15									#133
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Asher, your comprehension of spirituality is infantile. Spiritual sustenance is all about the understanding that this community of humans, as a whole, is interrconnected, and that by reaching out, we are stronger.

My existence is not pointless - is yours? How do I justify my existence? I do not justify it by claiming that worshippping god gives it meaning - rather I relish in the fact that each passing second that I am alive I have the ability to form new experiences, new memories, gain pleasure simply from existing.

Very zen.

	03-09-2003 00:16									#134
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark You have Jewish religious parties in Canada? Like what, the Bund? the Yiddish Volkspartei? The Labor Zionists?

Erm...why Jewish?

The Canadian Alliance is by far the most religious (Christian) party in Canada, and they're gung-ho against gay marriage, and only recently even conceded to outlaw discrimination against gays.

	03-09-2003 00:18									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Erm...why Jewish? The Canadian Alliance is by far the most religious (Christian) party in Canada, and they're gung-ho against gay marriage, and only recently even conceded to outlaw discrimination against gays.

to point up yet again how you assume religious=Christian=fundamentalist.

	03-09-2003 00:19									#136
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Asher, your comprehension of spirituality is infantile.

It's not infantile, it's realistic.

quote: My existence is not pointless - is yours?

Absolutely, and so is yours.

The world will not be a better place because you're here. Rather, your existence will most likely harm the world physically more than if you have not existed. You're born, you live, you die -- we pass on the planet as it dies to the next generation so they can do the same.

Existence is pointless, so it's all about enjoying it while you can. Toss out all of the rigid rules and restrictions and bullshit of religion and do what you want, when you want.

	03-09-2003 00:21									#137
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark to point up yet again how you assume religious=Christian=fundamentalist.

Why bother pointing out the obvious?

Look: Mainstream religious *******s are against gay rights. Republicans, or the Canadian Alliance. However you spell it out, homophobes tend to be very religious, and so do politicians who have a thing out for gays.

You can somehow set up all those red herrings about how they're not Jewish, or they're not fundies, but it doesn't really matter now, does it? Either way, the parties are religious and against gays based on their religion. It's inescapable.

And yes, I realize not all religions and religious people have a problem with gays. But the ones in power do, and frankly that's all I give a crap about.

	03-09-2003 00:21									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's not infantile, it's realistic. Absolutely, and so is yours. The world will not be a better place because you're here. Rather, your existence will most likely harm the world physically more than if you have not existed. You're born, you live, you die -- we pass on the planet as it dies to the next generation so they can do the same. Existence is pointless, so it's all about enjoying it while you can. Toss out all of the rigid rules and restrictions and bullshit of religion and do what you want, when you want.

This was a discussion of religious education for youngsters. Not a religious versus atheist thread. If you are convinced that religion is wrong, and that your personal philosophy is right, i can understand youre wanting to raise your kids in your philosophy. I do not see that as any less brainwashing then raising them with a religion.

	03-09-2003 00:25									#139
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I've already said that I wouldn't teach them one way or another. If my kid wanted to go to church, I'd take him/her.

As I said, I'm against brainwashing children when it comes to things like faith. I agree that teaching them there is no God is just as bad as saying there is one, so I'll leave it up to them. It's not my place to decide faith for somebody.

	03-09-2003 00:25									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Why bother pointing out the obvious? Look: Mainstream religious *******s are against gay rights. Republicans, or the Canadian Alliance. However you spell it out, homophobes tend to be very religious, and so do politicians who have a thing out for gays. You can somehow set up all those red herrings about how they're not Jewish, or they're not fundies, but it doesn't really matter now, does it? Either way, the parties are religious and against gays based on their religion. It's inescapable. And yes, I realize not all religions and religious people have a problem with gays. But the ones in power do, and frankly that's all I give a crap about.

So youre gay, and you dont like that certain political parties are antigay, and theyre influenced by certain christian denominations. Very well. And that proves that religious education is brainwashing? Makes no sense.

The only Atheist party to control a large country was the Communists. They did some fairly nasty things to Jews. Does that prove being irreligious is brainwashing? Its a red herring, as Im sure youre aware.

	03-09-2003 00:27									#141
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark So youre gay, and you dont like that certain political parties are antigay, and theyre influenced by certain christian denominations. Very well. And that proves that religious education is brainwashing? Makes no sense.

Absolutely, simply because that's a blatant strawman. It doesn't prove religious education is brainwashing (which is actually a nobrainer to those who aren't religious and see it for what it is), but it's part of a rant on why I hate religions.

quote: The only Atheist party to control a large country was the Communists. They did some fairly nasty things to Jews. Does that prove being irreligious is brainwashing? Its a red herring, as Im sure youre aware.

No, it's a strawman -- on your part.

	03-09-2003 00:32									#142
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"The world will not be a better place because you're here. Rather, your existence will most likely harm the world physically more than if you have not existed."

Cynicism such as yours is outdated, narrow, and infantile.

"Existence is pointless, so it's all about enjoying it while you can."

Existence has a point - that point is to enjoy it, and to help others enjoy it as well. In turn, to help others enjoy it, and make the most of themselves, brings joy in return.

"Toss out all of the rigid rules and restrictions and bullshit of religion and do what you want, when you want."

Rules set us free. For example, to outlaw murder gives every citizen the freedom to walk without fear of being murdered. To outlaw theft gives everyone the freedom to not have to worry about their possesions being stolen.

	03-09-2003 00:33									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I've already said that I wouldn't teach them one way or another. If my kid wanted to go to church, I'd take him/her.

Of course you dont go to church (or shul or mosque or whatever) I presume you go to the mall. Will you take your kid there as a matter of course? Will you let them know you go there regularly? Will you let them see you shop? When they ask why, will you tell them? Will you explain the nuances of shopping?


I somehow am quite confident that little Asher junior will be a devoted patron of the mall, and probably will not follow any religion. Children learn from their parents, whether their parents wish to teach them or not. People follow a way of life, not so much out of choice, as out the social and cultural conditions that surround their upbringing. Parents live. Children observe how their parents live, and what they live for. While they may end up rebelling, this presents them with a starting point. There is no way to avoid "brainwashing" in this sense. T

	03-09-2003 00:35									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Asher . It doesn't prove religious education is brainwashing (which is actually a nobrainer to those who aren't religious and see it for what it is), .

Without knowing the curriculum of a particular education, how could you possibly know that?

	03-09-2003 00:38									#145
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Cynicism such as yours is outdated, narrow, and infantile.

1) How can cynicism be "outdated"?
2) How can cynicism be "narrow"?
3) Cynicism is mature, the opposite of infantile. Infants and children in general are optimistic, but once reality sets in they become more cynical and realistic.

quote: Existence has a point - that point is to enjoy it, and to help others enjoy it as well. In turn, to help others enjoy it, and make the most of themselves, brings joy in return.

How does religion play a role in this, where it introduces you to a set of rules and forces you to sit through hell every sunday?

quote: Rules set us free.

And exlax complicates us.

quote: For example, to outlaw murder gives every citizen the freedom to walk without fear of being murdered.

And to outlaw sodomy gives every citizen the freedom to walk around without fear of being assraped by one of those homofags, right?

	03-09-2003 00:38									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I agree that teaching them there is no God is just as bad as saying there is one, so I'll leave it up to them. It's not my place to decide faith for somebody.

and what do you do when your little kid asks you if there is a god? Saying "this is only my opinion, you can believe what you want" wont satisfy the younger ones, and wont be necessary for the older ones (who will take it as given that whatever you say is only your opinion )

	03-09-2003 00:41									#147
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Of course you dont go to church (or shul or mosque or whatever) I presume you go to the mall. Will you take your kid there as a matter of course? Will you let them know you go there regularly? Will you let them see you shop? When they ask why, will you tell them? Will you explain the nuances of shopping?

I do my shopping online when possible, actually.

quote: I somehow am quite confident that little Asher junior will be a devoted patron of the mall, and probably will not follow any religion.

Absolutely not, I hate malls.

quote: There is no way to avoid "brainwashing" in this sense. T

So now we've come to grips with the fact that it is brainwashing.

Tis all I asked.

quote: Without knowing the curriculum of a particular education, how could you possibly know that?

Huh? I was raised as a Christian. Went to church every Sunday, even went to Sunday school. I know very well what the curriciulum is and how they try to brainwash children.

I remember distinctly one of my "classmates" at sunday school asking how they can prove to him God exists, and he was basically told any more questions and God would be mad at him.

	03-09-2003 00:43									#148
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark and what do you do when your little kid asks you if there is a god?

Hell if I know! Go back to the TV, and get ready to go to the mall in an hour!!

	03-09-2003 00:46									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How does religion play a role in this, where it introduces you to a set of rules and forces you to sit through hell every sunday?

Sunday IE religion=Christianity
sit through hell IE religion=some Protestant Church where they have some awful preacher giving lousy sermons

Obviously Asher has never heard my cantors beautiful voice, heard my rabbis joke (or his political opinions), understood the beauty of ancient Hebrew poetry, schmoozed with the folks at my shul, or enjoyed the food at the oneg. heck, id probably go to shul even if I was an atheist - certainly I'll go there when i feel filled with doubt, or anger at G-d. But then you cant be part of religion with doubt or struggle - religion is "perfect faith" as per Protestant Christianity, and anger at G-d is certainly NOT compatible with being a religious person - again per Protestant Christianity. Asher is one of most hardline Protestants here

	03-09-2003 00:52									#150
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quote: and what do you do when your little kid asks you if there is a god?

Good answer ASher, but... you shouldn't lie to 'em, just tell 'em the truth; A bunch a crazy people made up the idea of God along time ago in order to scare other stupid people into being good. But don't worry, we'll celebrate Christmas!