03-09-2003 00:53									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Huh? I was raised as a Christian. Went to church every Sunday, even went to Sunday school. I know very well what the curriciulum is and how they try to brainwash children. I remember distinctly one of my "classmates" at sunday school asking how they can prove to him God exists, and he was basically told any more questions and God would be mad at him.

Well then, you certainly know that all religious education is brainwashing, since the religious education YOU received was.

By the same reasoning all reading education involves ****, Jane and spot, since the reading education i received did.

Or all religious education involves learning a foreign alphabet, since the religious education i received was.


Think logically

"I was given a X education. It involved Y, ergo all X education involves Y" Demonstrate why this reasoning is fallacious.

	03-09-2003 00:53									#152
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The only Atheist party to control a large country was the Communists. They did some fairly nasty things to Jews.

I admit, singling out the Jews was bad. We should have nailed all your religious asses.

Who'd have thought that Asher would be a gay libertarian low-brow Ivan Karamazov?

	03-09-2003 00:56									#153
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark By the same reasoning all reading education involves ****, Jane and spot, since the reading education i received did.

apolyton censorship = now theres a reason for optimism, joy, and laughter, if ever there was one.

	03-09-2003 00:57									#154
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark and what do you do when your little kid asks you if there is a god?

What do you do when your little kid asks you if the Hindu gods are real? Or wonders about the ancient gods that people prayed to, told stories of, and died for?

The thing that amazes me, truly astounds me, about some of the faithful is that they are willing to believe they lucked onto the One True Faith ^TM and everyone else wanders around believing stories. Me, I take a far more pragmatic approach. I'm an atheist, if I'm right I get to rot in the ground along side everyone else. If I'm wrong, I'm in for an interesting eternity. I may not be on the true path but mine makes sense.

And if my kid ever asks if there is a god, well I'm not going to let the kid off with an easy answer. I'll ask it what it thinks god is. Teach the kid to use its brain when confronted with the big questions.

	03-09-2003 00:59									#155
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Starchild

Yet, I believe just in case... as if there isn't a god, it's not like rotting in the ground is going to hurt any more

	03-09-2003 00:59									#156
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Think logically "I was given a X education. It involved Y, ergo all X education involves Y" Demonstrate why this reasoning is fallacious.

I am. I'm not basing it just on my own personal experiences, but on logic and reason.

Any time you drag a child to a religious place of worship once a week, teach him and tell him to believe in it (over and over), that's brainwashing.

It's very simple. You don't see it as brainwashing, simply education, because you, too, have no doubt been brainwashed.

	03-09-2003 01:04									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild What do you do when your little kid asks you if the Hindu gods are real? Or wonders about the ancient gods that people prayed to, told stories of, and died for? .

If hes too little for subtlety, I tell her that theyre not real. Like I said, youve got to answer one way or the other. When shes older i will talk to her about the universal human for meaning, and how thats expressed in different cultures history. I will discuss why Judaism sees monotheism as uniquely true, and what that means to me. I will certainly not tell her that everyone needs to be Jewish - that is not part of Judaism - other peoples can (and are meant to) have different paths to G-d

	03-09-2003 01:05									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I am. I'm not basing it just on my own personal experiences, but on logic and reason.

Give it a rest. That's a very dubious inductive inference.

	03-09-2003 01:06									#159
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Starchild is right on w.r.t. religious people all thinking they have the correct religion.

	03-09-2003 01:07									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Give it a rest. That's a very dubious inductive inference.

s/dubious/obvious

	03-09-2003 01:08									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Any time you drag a child to a religious place of worship once a week, teach him and tell him to believe in it (over and over), that's brainwashing. A. I should get a baby sitter when i go to shul? B. I shouldnt teach my kid stuff I know? I teach her civil war history, dinosaurs, - why shouldnt i teach her about judaism? you may believe what i teach her is false - -you may believe the same about what i teach her about the civil war, or dinosaurs. I presume when you say that religious education is brainwashing you are saying more than that you believe religion to be false. C. Tell him to believe in it. _ as i hope youve gathered, i have never told my child to believe it. Or not. Period.

	03-09-2003 01:15									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Asher s/dubious/obvious

Not really. I know and have taught many people who had a strict Catholic education and most aren't brainwashed or resolutely religious.

Especially the two I had some years back who would skip classes (not just mine) to engage in premarital sex (the other students gleefully told me where they were and what they were doing - I had a hard time keeping a straight face when they made some BS excuse the next week).

	03-09-2003 01:17									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Starchild is right on w.r.t. religious people all thinking they have the correct religion.

I dont know what the correct religion is. I dont know what the "correct" form of Judaism is, or if there is a correct form. I dont "know" if Judaism is "true" I dont know if all monotheisms are true in some way. I dont know if monotheism is superior to polytheism or atheism. I DO know that struggling with this is important to me. I also know that I want to do this struggle not alone, but with others. I also know that living the Jewish experience is part of my way of struggling with these questions, and that the many (not all) of the most interesting answers to me are ones formulated by thinkers immersed in the Jewish tradition. Ergo, it makes sense for me to go to shul where I can struggle alongside people with similar interests - and to tunes that have emotional weight for me, etc.

Perhaps all this makes me "irreligious" from your point of view. It certainly does to my ultraorthodox relatives.
Too bad.

	03-09-2003 01:18									#164
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No one said the brainwashing is always effective, especially in the teenage & college years.

	03-09-2003 01:18									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Especially the two I had some years back who would skip classes (...) to engage in premarital sex

Been there, done that.

	03-09-2003 01:19									#166
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lord of the mark: Please add to the last line of your sig: "Living the Jewish Experience since (date of birth)"

	03-09-2003 01:20									#167
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quote: If hes too little for subtlety, I tell her that theyre not real. Like I said, youve got to answer one way or the other. When shes older i will talk to her about the universal human for meaning, and how thats expressed in different cultures history.

Why do you have to answer one way or another? And why are you telling her something you don't know to be true? By doing this you are turning god into a myth.

I guess it would be alright if some parent told their kid that people with darker skin have committed more sins...

Propogating lies, or presenting theory as fact, or instilling belief without faith is brainwashing.

	03-09-2003 01:26									#168
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Been there, done that.

You better hope that your mates didn't announce the details of your sex life to the rest of the class.

Sample:

Agathon: "Where are ***** and ****** this afternoon?"

Students: "Would you believe, they're ****ing again?"

Agathon: "Do we really have to indulge in salacious gossip about the private lives of other members of the class?"

Student: "Hell yeah! You can hear them at it from the quad!"

	03-09-2003 01:30									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Why do you have to answer one way or another? LOTM - have you ever tried to turn away a curious 5 year old without an answer? And why are you telling her something you don't know to be true? LOTM - I would say "i believe" it - when youre a parent talking to a little kid, the distinction between I believe it and I know it is fairly academic. Youre quibbling over words - you have to answer. I guess it would be alright if some parent told their kid that people with darker skin have committed more sins... LOTM - I would tell her that all people have commited sins. Though I cant prove that. Propogating lies, or presenting theory as fact, or instilling belief without faith is brainwashing. LOTM - What i have said i believe to be true, though simplified for the audience in question.

	03-09-2003 01:30									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian exposing your daughter to the ideas, but encouraging her to think for herself and make her own choices about it.

Hey Arrian - if you ever run for public office, you'll DEFINITELY get my vote. And you can quote me.

	03-09-2003 01:31									#171
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so how many people answering this thread actually have children?

	03-09-2003 01:32									#172
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And how many have been children?

BTW, I also went to church of england school, because it was the best one in the area when I grew up. My parent's weren't religious though, they just let me make my own mind up.

	03-09-2003 01:33									#173
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The obvious answer is, expose her to it in a positive way when she is younger, and as she gets older, let her make up her own mind. Don't force it on her, but give her the opportunity to be a christian should she so desire it.

	03-09-2003 01:33									#174
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I went to a Jesuit school.

	03-09-2003 01:35									#175
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Funny how many non-religious people went to religious schools.

	03-09-2003 01:35									#176
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quote: What i have said i believe to be true, though simplified for the audience in question.

Saying that you believe that they don't exist is a lot different than:

quote: I tell her that theyre not real

Anywho... that's a good answer, and I don't have any kids of my own, but I have 5 neices and nephews who are pretty good at asking really bad questions. So, I understand what youo mean by having to tell them something...

One time my nephew jumped on my lap, I felt my cigarettes smash in my pocket. He felt the smashed box and asked what it was... I told him they were boring pills... nothing would be fun if you take them...

	03-09-2003 01:36									#177
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH And how many have been children? BTW, I also went to church of england school, because it was the best one in the area when I grew up. My parent's weren't religious though, they just let me make my own mind up.

we've all been children. Even us parents. You dont understand parenting from being a child. Sorry. Its too bad. Its a cliche. You wont understand your parents fully till you have kids. And that DOES NOT mean you'll agree with everything your parents did (I sure dont) but it does mean you'll understand things you didnt understand before. Like with MOST things in life.

	03-09-2003 01:38									#178
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Ah, so it's a "you can't understand" thing... I hate those... "It's a woman thing", "It's a black thing"...

They're all great arguments... as long as you don't expect to win that argument

	03-09-2003 01:43									#179
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark we've all been children. Even us parents. You dont understand parenting from being a child. Sorry. Its too bad. Its a cliche. You wont understand your parents fully till you have kids. And that DOES NOT mean you'll agree with everything your parents did (I sure dont) but it does mean you'll understand things you didnt understand before. Like with MOST things in life.

Thanks for patronising me (us), that's what I was hoping for.

Have you ever been president of the US? No? Well if you were you'd understand what it was like and understand his decisions, until then you might as well accept you can't understand or comment on what he does.

	03-09-2003 01:45									#180
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another reason this is a very "christian" centric thread.

What do you need to learn to "become a christian" its a matter of faith, after all (sole fide) , and a faith in a few simple beliefs. So naturally "education" might take on the form of "brainwashing".

I beg to remind that not all religions are like that. You CAN't be a good Jew without a fair amount of learning. You cant follow a traditional service without some learning. You cant really get the concepts without some Hebrew. You cant do the things observant Jewish people do, like holidays, kashrut, shabbas, etc without learning. Not giving a child learning is foreclosing that option, until they go and get the education later themselves. Its like not teaching a child to use machines, cause someday they might decide to become a luddite.

I suspect that Catholicism is closer to Judaism in this regard than Protestantism.