03-09-2003 01:54									#181
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Thanks for patronising me (us), that's what I was hoping for. Have you ever been president of the US? No? Well if you were you'd understand what it was like and understand his decisions, until then you might as well accept you can't understand or comment on what he does.

No ive never been president - but if an actual President or former Pres of the US were here, and was explaining the difficulties of communicating with the public, and shared an example, Id be damned if i called him dishonest or even implied it. I would take the opportunity to LEARN something, and recognize that my opinions and comments, however valuable, would benefit from experience.

So opine, disagreee and comment all you want, but dont tell me that im a liar, or that you know more about raising children then i do.

	03-09-2003 01:56									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Ah, so it's a "you can't understand" thing... I hate those... "It's a woman thing", "It's a black thing"... They're all great arguments... as long as you don't expect to win that argument

If a black person was telling me what its like to be stopped by a cop at night in a white neighborhood, Id be damned if told him that I knew better than he did how to respond. I would try to learn from him.

	03-09-2003 01:56									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Evolution is in no such state, it is both a theory and a fact. The fact of evolution, which has been proven conclusively, is that all living beings evolve. This is scientifically indisputable. It is a "theory" in the scientific sense, which doesn't mean a "guess" or "hypothesis." It is a "theory" in the same sense that gravity is a "theory." A scientific theory is simply a way of explaining observed phenomena, not making a "guess."

Boris: it was indisputable that the Earth was flat.

700 million years from now, we may find that evolution is completely wrong and laughable. I suggest you don't close your mind so much. (Just in case!)

	03-09-2003 02:04									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Japher They're all great arguments... as long as you don't expect to win that argument

as i said. Sorry. I know its a cliche. maybe it wont win an argument. Its nonetheless true.

I will point out one non-parallel. Blacks have not been whites. Women have not in been men (well lets not go there). All parents HAVE been children. And teenagers. and (for the most part) childless young adults. So we know what it was like to hear our parents say "you wont understand till you have kids" It was a revelation to find out that they were actually right. And you find it out a little more every day. I have an eleven year old. When i had a four year old i didnt know what it was like parenting an eleven year old. I still dont know what its like parenting a teenager, and wouldnt go around telling someone who HAS parented a teenager what the right way to go about it is. I have learned some humility. That by the way, is something plenty of non-parents learn as well. But it DOES take time and life experience to learn it.

	03-09-2003 02:04									#185
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After reading all this, I am getting the understanding that religion actually narrows the mind, and evolution (science) expands the mind

So maybe you should scientifically explain God.

	03-09-2003 02:07									#186
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"And to outlaw sodomy gives every citizen the freedom to walk around without fear of being assraped by one of those homofags, right?"

Where did I ever say I wanted to outlaw sodomy??? Nice, putting words into my mouth.

	03-09-2003 02:09									#187
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Where did I ever say I wanted to outlaw sodomy??? Nice, putting words into my mouth.

I didn't say you did. Now you're putting words in my mouth.

It's an example of a religious law, since sodomy is quite clearly not permitted by the bible.

	03-09-2003 02:18									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I didn't say you did. Now you're putting words in my mouth. It's an example of a religious law, since sodomy is quite clearly not permitted by the bible.

I know at least one rabbi who would dispute that.

	03-09-2003 02:20									#189
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quote: I know at least one rabbi who would dispute that.

Ya, and half of the Catholic preists would try and dispute it too

	03-09-2003 02:21									#190
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I know at least one rabbi who would dispute that.

That's another glorious thing about religion -- everyone interprets it in creative ways.

	03-09-2003 02:32									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's another glorious thing about religion -- everyone interprets it in creative ways.

Judaism more so than most - argument is the core of judaism.

To get back on topic - i would like my daughter to know HOW to argue, from valid Jewish legal sources, both sides of a question like this. Cant do that without a Jewish religious education - but seems the opposite of brainwashing to me.

	03-09-2003 07:49									#192
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You know, here's my take:

I don't really care. As long as Sophie is happy, that's all that matters.

I mean it. I shocked my sister once when she asked me what I wanted Sophie to do with her life and I replied that it didn't matter to me if she was a bra burning lesbian who wrote poems about her breasts or a high power businesswoman or a charity worker or a stay at home mother or whatever, just as long as she's happy.

As far as my beliefs are concerned, I see people who succeed and are happy in the Catholic (or "religious" to keep the big picture view of things) belief system just as I see that other people succeed and are happy in most other mental frameworks. I'm not worried about "damaging" or "warping" or "indoctrinating" her as everything I do is "indoctrination." Or "parenting" as we call it from our side of the fence. Brush your teeth! Don't wipe your hands on the dog! Don't hit! Share! Damn, indoctrination is what we do, its who we are. Regardless, it is my observation that people are happy with all sorts of belief systems, some of which might make absolutely no sense to me... but if they're happy, productive, and not a threat to others, that's fine by me.

The issues I'm more worried about are the ones brought up by Alexander's Horse, about the lack of community and availability of friendships and acquaitences - it is a good place to network and to meet people whom have a better than average chance of being "decent."

This is what I'm worried that we're denying Sophie, this and sparing her the embarrassment of the uncomfortable pause that occurs when she has no response to the (very common) question of "So, where do you go to church?" We have absolutely no plans of moving from the SE US, and we have really no plans of moving from Knoxville, so the question is going to come up. Plus, since I want her to know the Bible anyway, who is going to teach it better than the professionals at church?

She is baptized as a Catholic, btw:

Attachment: sophie2.jpg
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	03-09-2003 07:56									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse A lot of this discussion misses the point. Raising your child catholic or any established church community, has a lot of social and economic benefits - better education, a moral reference point or framework, a community of parents like yourself to back you up and socialise with, freebies like access to holiday houses You don't have to be a fanatic about the relgious part of it. But the ties you make are very handy all through your life, in business, politics, sports, whatever. You'll never walk alone. It certainly helps make me. And if something happened to me I know my family would be looked after. I do like going to church with my kids, its fun. I feel proud. My own views on aspects of the faith I keep to myself, like most Dads.

As mentioned above, this is one of my biggest issues with not going to church. Well put, AH!

	03-09-2003 07:58									#194
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Oh, I never found religion "oppressive", a fave word in this thread. After all, when I decided to stop going to church in my teens they didn't exactly send squads of muscled goons after me.

The interesting thing is that many of the responses I'm receiving I could've posted myself at earlier stages in my life. Asher.

	03-09-2003 08:09									#195
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand 1) Why did you ask this at a notoriously Atheist site? 2) Why not give her the chance her parents had?

1. I don't think the site is notoriously atheistic. I asked because I wanted other peoples opinions... and Apolyton wasn't the only place I posted this question.

2. The chance for what?

	03-09-2003 08:10									#196
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Thank you, Asher. Your flippant attitude about a child's eternal future is supremely indicative of my point. Let me ask this, John. At any point in your lives, have you and/or your wife been saved? If yes, how will you feel if you spend eternity with God, and your Blessing burns ? That's assuming that God is truly merciful, and forgives you for not providing her a choice/chance.

1. No.

2. N/A

3. Sophie has a choice, Sloww. Like I did, like you did, like we both still do. I'm not taking away anything.

	03-09-2003 08:12									#197
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH JohnT, dont you live in the south? If thats so, there may be advantages to not raising Sophie as a catholic. She wont be seen as the 'spawn of satan' by the baptists. My children are 'irreligious' and their lack of beliefs are at least tolerated here to some extent.

Having lived in Georgia and Tennessee my entire life, I can tell you that I have never been witness to or party of any anti-Catholic bigotry. It has frankly never been a factor in my life.

	03-09-2003 08:15									#198
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I also think while Judaism may not be relevant to young sophie, this will give you insight into education and choice. I believe it was William James who said that some religious choices were possible to a given person while some were not. So he could choose between Christianity and free thinking - but becoming a Sunni muslim is beyond his cultural world. Those of us in religious minorities are aware of this - leave my daughter to the general culture and she may have a choice between Protestantism, and atheism. But given the nature of the culture, Judaism is likely to be off her radar - UNLESS we make it a special point to offer it to her. So you must think about the general culture you will be raising your daughter in, and the choices it presents, and if it will tend to exclude choices it is important to you that she have. And what kind of upbrining is required to make sure she has that choice.

Very fine words. Thank you.

	03-09-2003 08:18									#199
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so how many people answering this thread actually have children?

I do!

	03-09-2003 08:19									#200
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Funny how many non-religious people went to religious schools.

It sure shows the strength of the oppressive brainwashing, doesn't it?

	03-09-2003 08:20									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py Boris: it was indisputable that the Earth was flat. 700 million years from now, we may find that evolution is completely wrong and laughable. I suggest you don't close your mind so much. (Just in case!)

The Earth being flat was never proven by scientific method. Once people had enough scientific information (and we're talking ancient Greeks here), it was shown that, logically, it must be round. This was over a thousand years before Magellan. And contrary to popular myth, plenty of people believed the earth to be round before Magellan or Columbus set sail.

Evolution is indisputable because it is observed. Does anyone (credible) dispute the world is round now? No, because it has been observed. Likewise with evolution. Comparing evolution to a flat earth is the wrong analogy--Creationism is what is more analogous to a flat earth, as neither is scientifically supportable.

People who claim Evolution is just a "theory" (as in guess) are woefully uneducated as to the abundant scientific evidence that proves it to be fact. The trifecta of anatomical, fossil and molecular evidence not only proves evolution to be true beyond any reasonable doubt, but also shows that there is no other credible explanation but evolution for what we observe in biology.

	03-09-2003 08:39									#202
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JohnT, I think the answer is fairly simple, IMO. You and your wife live in a current lifestyle that you feel is most condusive to your beliefs. Raising your child in anything else would seem to me to be hypocritical, sending a message that she has to live a way that the two of you don't necessarily want to live yourselves. So, if I were you, I'd maintain the status quo and just continue as you are vis-a-vis religious activity. That shouldn't have any negative impact on her morality, since good parents are good parents regardless of their religious background or even lack of religion. The most important thing is to live honestly and raise her honestly.

	03-09-2003 11:59									#203
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Asher, start your own whiney-ªss thread.

Of course, I'm about a hundred posts too late…

	03-09-2003 12:12									#204
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Dude, that hat is DOPE.

	03-09-2003 14:46									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's an example of a religious law, since sodomy is quite clearly not permitted by the bible.

You know, this is something that really pisses me off. Why shouldn't people be allowed to believe what they want? Why is gay-bashing any worse than Christian-bashing?

If a Christian (or whomever) wants to believe that homosexuality is wrong, why the hell shouldn't they? Likewise, a gay should be allowed to believe that Christianity is wrong. That's their perogative.

The ones that piss me off, are the ones who insult people because of their beliefs, from both sides. And that includes you Asher.

	03-09-2003 18:34									#206
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" Why shouldn't people be allowed to believe what they want? "

They can. Just as long as they have an open mind about it.

	03-09-2003 18:40									#207
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark So opine, disagreee and comment all you want, but dont tell me that im a liar, or that you know more about raising children then i do.

I wouldn't and didn't say that.

	03-09-2003 18:57									#208
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quote: And to outlaw sodomy gives every citizen the freedom to walk around without fear of being assraped by one of those homofags, right?

Well duh...

	03-09-2003 19:15									#209
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Having lived in Georgia and Tennessee my entire life, I can tell you that I have never been witness to or party of any anti-Catholic bigotry. It has frankly never been a factor in my life.

Well my comment was somewhat 'tongue in cheek', however, if you've lived in the south all your life you must be aware that there are many baptists here who feel that way about the catholic church.

quote: Originally posted by JohnT The issues I'm more worried about are the ones brought up by Alexander's Horse, about the lack of community and availability of friendships and acquaitences - it is a good place to network and to meet people whom have a better than average chance of being "decent." This is what I'm worried that we're denying Sophie, this and sparing her the embarrassment of the uncomfortable pause that occurs when she has no response to the (very common) question of "So, where do you go to church?" We have absolutely no plans of moving from the SE US, and we have really no plans of moving from Knoxville, so the question is going to come up. Plus, since I want her to know the Bible anyway, who is going to teach it better than the professionals at church?

My wife and I are both agnostic so we have gone through these questions/situations fairly regularly for ourselves and our two daughters.

I would suggest to you that it is somewhat hypocritical for you (as someone who actually has some degree of faith) to take your daughter to church in order to 'network' (and obviously I understand the value of that here in the south).

EDIT:cartman voice: goddamit! :/cartman voice: I read further and found Boris and I had similar comments

	03-09-2003 19:17									#210
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"the answer is fairly simple, IMO. You and your wife live in a current lifestyle that you feel is most condusive to your beliefs."

I agree with this. Just do whatever you feel comes naturally.