03-09-2003 19:23									#211
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quote: Originally posted by st_swithin Hey Arrian - if you ever run for public office, you'll DEFINITELY get my vote. And you can quote me.

Why thank you, but I don't think I'll ever put myself through that. I'd never get elected, for lots of reasons, I'm sure, but not least because at some point I'm guaranteed to tell someone what I really think of them, and that will be that.

JohnT - I've never had any problem telling people I don't believe. Granted, I live in CT, not TN. I know it's different down there. But I think that "sparing her the embassment" of being irreligious in a religious setting is a pretty bad reason to take her to church.

-Arrian

	03-09-2003 19:24									#212
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT As mentioned above, this is one of my biggest issues with not going to church. Well put, AH!

In the old days Jews who had become militant atheists but wanted a "church" to belong to attended (founded?) the Society for Ethical Culture. Meet on Sunday mornings, guaranteed NOT to talk about God.

Dont suppose many of those in the South, though.

Or if occasionally mentioning God is ok, theres always the Unitarians. IIUC they sure wont force any particular beleifs on anyone

	03-09-2003 19:42									#213
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One of my big problems is that I'm not the "believing" sort... I find it a bit unsettling to be among people who's eyes are glowing in anticipation of the "cause", regardless of whether the cause is political, religious, etc. I especially find the basic assumptions of Christianity hard to swallow, i.e.: that Jesus was the Son of God sent down specifically for the purpose using his death to guilt mankind into obedience.

I'm also disturbed at the lack of God's "official" presence over the past 2 millennia - you think that s/he would have the presence of mind to remind a civilization of doubters that "Yes, I do exist." I'm too much a creature of the Reformation and the Enlightenment to ever be comfortable outside my own counsel and to accept the unproven, divine wisdom of others.

	03-09-2003 19:46									#214
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JohnT.

Teach your little girl how to think, and if she decides to become religious, so be it.

-Arrian

	03-09-2003 20:18									#215
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I'm also disturbed at the lack of God's "official" presence over the past 2 millennia - you think that s/he would have the presence of mind to remind a civilization of doubters that "Yes, I do exist." I'm too much a creature of the Reformation and the Enlightenment to ever be comfortable outside my own counsel and to accept the unproven, divine wisdom of others.

The "official" orthodox jewish line is that miracles have not been possible since the destruction of the Temple in 69 CE. And will not be possible again till the messiah comes and the temple is restored.

Some orthodox zionists see a miracle in the building of israel - and take great interest in the paradox that this miracle was largely carried out by agnostic and atheist secular zionists.

Chassidic jews, IIUC, still see claim occasional miracles, though theyre subtle.

Most Conservative and Reform Jews would see all divine action (including in ancient times) as occuring through man.

	03-09-2003 20:23									#216
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT One of my big problems is that I'm not the "believing" sort... I find it a bit unsettling to be among people who's eyes are glowing in anticipation of the "cause", regardless of whether the cause is political, religious, etc. I especially find the basic assumptions of Christianity hard to swallow, i.e.: that Jesus was the Son of God sent down specifically for the purpose using his death to guilt mankind into obedience. I'm also disturbed at the lack of God's "official" presence over the past 2 millennia - you think that s/he would have the presence of mind to remind a civilization of doubters that "Yes, I do exist." I'm too much a creature of the Reformation and the Enlightenment to ever be comfortable outside my own counsel and to accept the unproven, divine wisdom of others.

I think youd be quite comfortable in my synagogue - though our prayerbook has lots of stuff youd be uncomfortable with, the same lines make most of us uncomfortable - of course being Cons. Jews we prefer keeping old stuff and reinterpreting it, wrestling with it to changing it - unlike our Reform friends.

If you need to stay in a gentile environment, it sounds like you'd be comfortable in a Unitarian church, where i suspect alot of people would share your concerns and issues. Some of the recent debate about the Episcopalian church suggests some there also share your concerns, but im not really sure. You might ask Dr. Strangelove.

	03-09-2003 20:25									#217
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Or if occasionally mentioning God is ok, theres always the Unitarians. IIUC they sure wont force any particular beleifs on anyone

I know an atheist Unitarian minister...

	03-09-2003 20:52									#218
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Bullshit, KH. Not believing that one.

John, go to a religious-positive site.
Say, "Make me believe".
Otherwise, you're just asking for confirmation of non-belief, instead of seeking truth.

	03-09-2003 21:16									#219
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He was asking for advice raising his daughter, not spiritual advice for himself, Sloww.

Your point about 'poly being irreligious has some truth to it, but I think you exaggerate.

-Arrian

	03-09-2003 21:17									#220
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As I said before, compared to the UK in general this site has a very high proportion of practicing religious posters so it depends on your point of view.

	03-09-2003 21:18									#221
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Raise Sophie to worship Disney...

	03-09-2003 21:19									#222
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He isn't going to send her to something he doesn't believe at all.
Well, he might. But that's a whole new can of worms.

	03-09-2003 21:25									#223
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH As I said before, compared to the UK in general this site has a very high proportion of practicing religious posters so it depends on your point of view.

It's the Americans. Everywhere else has pretty much given up on religion.

Think about how often American politicians invoke God's name and how it almost never happens in other English speaking countries.

	03-09-2003 21:26									#224
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First off, isn't Sophie really young?

IMO, one needs to be able to reason before one should be making choices about a belief system/faith. Obviously this is an irreligious point of view, since religions seem to like to get 'em young (sorry, couldn't help that one ). Therefore, I think high school & college elective courses and/or extracurricular study around that time is a good intro to religion. At that point, you should know how to think, and thus if you chose a religion, your choice has some weight to it.

Sending a child to "Sunday School" or whatever when they're in elementary/middle school is... well, I wouldn't do it. I'll leave it at that.

-Arrian

	03-09-2003 21:27									#225
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I would say take her to a nondemoniational church as they are less psycho, but I went to my wives church once and was taken as the guest pastor said "If you don't believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God, you will burn in hell!"

I laughed, got in trouble with the wife, and don't go back there except for Christmas... I have a good relationship with the real pastor there and he knows my views... Nice guy.

I was raised a Luthern, and thought it was fun at the time, but when I look back at it it was a real waste of time. Yet, I probably wouldn't be who I am today if it wasn't for the pastor there...

So, I would say find a church with a pastor or leader that you like, and don't worry about the denomination so much. Church is about finding faith, and a good pastor will understand if you find it somewhere else. Church is also about growing up, handling problems, and knowing that there is somewhere to turn if you need help... at least to me... more so than a book, idol worship, and some unseen, omniscient entity that only seems to be able to forgive...

	03-09-2003 21:27									#226
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And that's why Hell will be full of Brits.

	03-09-2003 21:27									#227
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Agathon, would it be possible for you to be any snottier? That last post wasn't nearly insulting enough. Please try again.

-Arrian

	03-09-2003 21:34									#228
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Puddy doesn't have a problem with Elaine not being religious, after all he is not the one who's "going to hell."

	03-09-2003 21:37									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Agathon, would it be possible for you to be any snottier? That last post wasn't nearly insulting enough. Please try again. -Arrian

It wasn't meant to be insulting you crack-smoking brain-dead butt-faced clown.

It's a fact, the US is way more religious than other English speaking countries. That accounts for the fact that some American posters consider this to be a wildly atheist site and the rest of us consider it to be fairly religious.

'Tis all I was saying.

Unnerstand?

	03-09-2003 21:55									#230
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I knew exactly what you were saying. But you deliberately said it snottily. Don't bother denying it.

-Arrian

	03-09-2003 21:59									#231
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Yeah, don't type in that tone opf voice anymore! It's really degrading!!!!!!!

	03-09-2003 23:48									#232
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Bullshit, KH. Not believing that one.

You don't have to believe it. but it's true.

The unitarian church a friend of my girlfriend's goes to is flaky even by unitarian standards. And the minister is an atheist. He openly talks about it while giving sermons. Nobody seems to care.

	03-09-2003 23:58									#233
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Slowwhand: Only God decideds who is going to Hell and who isn't. You aren't exactly witnessing your faith in a very charitable way that is likely to attract anyone.

	04-09-2003 00:01									#234
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand John, go to a religious-positive site. Say, "Make me believe". Otherwise, you're just asking for confirmation of non-belief, instead of seeking truth.

I don't get this. "Go to a religious site and get them to change your mind instead of asking people whose attitude toward religion is more similar to yours their opinions"

Religion is right because it's right because it's right?

	04-09-2003 00:05									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I knew exactly what you were saying. But you deliberately said it snottily. Don't bother denying it. -Arrian

Up yours. So you're a mind reader now...

I did not deliberately say it that way at all. You took it that way and that's your problem, not mine.

	04-09-2003 00:05									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Yeah, don't type in that tone opf voice anymore! It's really degrading!!!!!!!

	04-09-2003 00:06									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian First off, isn't Sophie really young? IMO, one needs to be able to reason before one should be making choices about a belief system/faith. Obviously this is an irreligious point of view, since religions seem to like to get 'em young (sorry, couldn't help that one ). Therefore, I think high school & college elective courses and/or extracurricular study around that time is a good intro to religion. At that point, you should know how to think, and thus if you chose a religion, your choice has some weight to it. Sending a child to "Sunday School" or whatever when they're in elementary/middle school is... well, I wouldn't do it. I'll leave it at that. -Arrian

No chanukkah candles? No latkes? No purim plays, or groggers? No four questions on Pesach? No apples and honey on Rosh hashanah? no learning about forgiveness on Yom Kippur? No meals in the sukkah? No shabbat songs, or challah baking? Such scrooges you are.

And childhood is the BEST time to learn a language.

	04-09-2003 00:08									#238
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I know an atheist Unitarian minister...

A Reform rabbi in Michigan declared himself "ignostic" (he doesnt know what "god" means) That was too much even for Reform, so he went out and founded "Humanist Judaism"

	04-09-2003 00:12									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Up yours. So you're a mind reader now... I did not deliberately say it that way at all. You took it that way and that's your problem, not mine.

My problem is that I read your posts.

-Arrian

	04-09-2003 01:12									#240
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quote: Have you ever been president of the US? No? Well if you were you'd understand what it was like and understand his decisions, until then you might as well accept you can't understand or comment on what he does.

He never said you couldn't comment on it, he said you don't fully understand. And I think in your example that is true as well. You don't fully understand what the President of the US (or the PM of Great Britain) has to go through.

quote: It's the Americans. Everywhere else has pretty much given up on religion.

Um... shouldn't you quantify that statement?

Mexico, for instance, is very Catholic. The Middle East is, of course, very Islamic, etc.