04-09-2003 01:27									#241
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You have a "legal" obligation as a Catholic to raise your daughter Catholic. She will question your own lack of religious fervor as she grows up. Explain it to her. She can then make up her mind whether she wants to continue her religious education, etc., or stop. You should not make that decision for her now.

	04-09-2003 01:29									#242
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Sending her to "religious school" as a young child is letting her make up her own mind? You can't be serious.

-Arrian

	04-09-2003 02:19									#243
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT One of my big problems is that I'm not the "believing" sort... I find it a bit unsettling to be among people who's eyes are glowing in anticipation of the "cause", regardless of whether the cause is political, religious, etc. I especially find the basic assumptions of Christianity hard to swallow, i.e.: that Jesus was the Son of God sent down specifically for the purpose using his death to guilt mankind into obedience.

Here I must fault your understanding of the fundamentals of Christianity as a means of guilt-manipulation. Granted, that may be true in your personal experience (due to family life as described, events in church that you probably won't bother to describe). To project that as the ideal of Christianity should seem out of place, if you give it a second thought.

quote: I'm also disturbed at the lack of God's "official" presence over the past 2 millennia - you think that s/he would have the presence of mind to remind a civilization of doubters that "Yes, I do exist."

God had no "official" presence in the preceding 2 milliennia, either. The Temple in Jerusalem? An official center of Jewish religion, but not an outwardly demonstated presence of God. All the OT miracles, when spread out over the span of time involved, make no noticible impact as far as an "official" presence is concerned. Obviously, God isn't into that.

quote: I'm too much a creature of the Reformation and the Enlightenment to ever be comfortable outside my own counsel and to accept the unproven, divine wisdom of others.

A curious thing for you to say when considering whether or not to raise Sophie RC (since you haven't mentioned any other denoms). If you've only found guilt (that's what I meant before when speaking of oppression), try looking somewhere else.

God isn't in to guilt trips. He says, "Come, let us reason. Though your sins are as scarlet, they shall be white as snow." Not "Your sins are scarlet (let me beat on you a while before going on) and maybe if you take your lumps and you're good after that we'll talk about considering you clean."

	04-09-2003 02:21									#244
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quote: God isn't in to guilt trips.

But apparently he is an egomanaic that demands worship for all of eternity. Reminds me of an ******* jock in high school more than anything else really.

	04-09-2003 02:27									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow [q] Originally posted by JohnT All the OT miracles, when spread out over the span of time involved, make no noticible impact as far as an "official" presence is concerned. Obviously, God isn't into that. [

uh, creating the world? flooding it and saving one family? taking some poor shlemiel and making his descendants a nation? Freeing 600,000 people from slavery, feeding and watering them in the desert, and defeating their enemies? Holding a mountain up, and directly writing a code of laws? Etc, etc. Seems to compare reasonably well with turning water to wine, reviving a couple of dead people, etc, despite the time spans involved (note the exodus stuff happens in the space of 40 years)

(all assuming for the purposes of discussion, that both OT and NT are true in their "plain" reading)

So the absence of miracles in the last 2000 years would seem to call for some explanation. Im sure official christianity has their explanations.

	04-09-2003 02:30									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Asher But apparently he is an egomanaic that demands worship for all of eternity. Reminds me of an ******* jock in high school more than anything else really.

yeah, well you mustnt take that part literally

In fact at least one VERY major Jewish thinker, Maimonides, says that such anthropmorphizing of G-d is idolatry - a VERY serious offense - a capital crime - as bad as, as bad as ......Sodomy

	04-09-2003 03:09									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Asher But apparently he is an egomanaic that demands worship for all of eternity. Reminds me of an ******* jock in high school more than anything else really.

You like to be in a real hot place someday, don't you . . .

	04-09-2003 03:11									#248
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Hawaii?

	04-09-2003 03:41									#249
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Re: Unitarianism.

There are indeed many atheist unitarians. My family attended a Unitarian church in Memphis for about 8 years. It actually was one of the largest such congregations there is, and the congregation was overwhelmingly middle-class to upper-middle class professionals.

There are two distinct branches of Unitarianism, one being the Deist model that Jefferson and other Enlightenment figures upheld, and the other being "humanist" Unitarianism, which is what I would guess the minister KH refers to is. Humanist Unitarians are under no spiritual doctrine. Therefore atheists are certainly found among their ranks, albeit in much fewer numbers than those with some sort of spiritual/theistic belief.

	04-09-2003 04:05									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Hawaii?

How about Vegas?

	04-09-2003 04:32									#251
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Still wading through the thread, but I want to answer John's first post.

quote: as a kid being "good" wasn't something I did because I was concerned that God or Jesus or Allah was going to punish me, I was "good" because it made my life easier, that chosing "right" tended to always be the more long-term pragmatic decision.

What's so irreligious about that? Most religious folks I know believe the same, that being good makes people do better in life, because God originally made us to be good.

You obey God because you trust that he will do what is best, not because he will send thunder and lightning.

quote: I can't speak for her, but for me, even I have never been concerned with my afterlife - if it exists, it does, if it doesn't, it doesn't.

That's a little bit problematic, since Jesus promises heaven for believers. Do you reject the promise, or are you just not all that concerned?

quote: to teach Sophie about the Bible in order for her to learn about one of the pillars of Western Civilization, but as the major part of a comprehensive belief system? Uh, no, not interested. Thanks!

Why the seperation? How do you think the bible became a pillar of Western Civilisation? Good writing style?

quote: Therefore, we were wondering what would be the effects if we raised Sophie (Sophia when she's being naughty) in an irreligious environment and if anybody here has been raised in such an environment.

Well, I come from a nominally Christian family. I can't say that it caused me great harm in the sense that I became physicially damaged, but I do regret all the time that I lost away from Christ. I was very fortunate to meet good people in University who taught me about Christ.

My big question is this. If you do not believe in Christianity, and in going to church, why teach it to your daughter? Why give her a bible if you don't believe what it teaches? Children are not stupid. They pick up quick on hypocrisy. If you go and do not believe, you will do more harm for your daughter than if you give her an open mind about these things. It quickly teaches her to be cynical.

How I wish I were in your situation! Both you and your wife are baptised Catholics with a beautiful daughter! I know what I would do, but again, I am not you and your family is not my family.

Figure out where you stand on Christianity. Do you believe in God, and in the bible? Then go to church, and teach your daughter. If you are unsure, go anyway, and try to figure out what you can. If you do not believe, than don't take your daughter and don't give her a bible.

	04-09-2003 05:23									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Hawaii?

you wish

	04-09-2003 05:26									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's the Americans. Everywhere else has pretty much given up on religion. Um... shouldn't you quantify that statement? Mexico, for instance, is very Catholic. The Middle East is, of course, very Islamic, etc.

I was only talking about the way that the Brits et al seem to think this is a religious site whilst the US posters think it is really irreligious. That's all I meant :tears hair out:

	04-09-2003 05:44									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger So does joining many non-religious groups or communities.

That's true - I suppose my point is being connected to your community is important. Being churched is one way of doing that but not the only way.

quote: Proud to brainwash your kids? Dreadful!

Hardly brainwashing. They will make up their own mind in time. As with many things parents do, kids come along for the ride. When they grow up they make their own arrangements.

But that's really sad because I'm going to be heartbroken when they all leave home

	04-09-2003 07:14									#255
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LotM, I did specifically say "in the preceding 2 millennia," and the creation and flood would be before that. The magnitude of miracles in the formation of the Israelite nation do not constitute a continuing "official" presence of God in the centuries following.

The miracles cited in other passages were, in some cases, crucial to the survival of the nation. Singular, unreproducible events do not represent a continuing "presence" in display that would be recognizable to outsiders. It was up to the Jewish people to keep the miracles in remembrance as symbols of God's providence, and apparently that hasn't been very consistent.

The point stands that God makes no demonstrable presence to purchase grudging acknowledgement from skeptics. To paraphrase Jesus: they ask for a sign, but if they don't believe Moses they won't believe a sign either.

	04-09-2003 09:35									#256
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Beowulf?

	04-09-2003 12:04									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You would even more if you'd seen the fundy kid at my school who was constantly afraid that Satan was going to get him and would call out to God in the middle of the playground.

I was out to get him.

	04-09-2003 12:07									#258
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quote: Originally posted by st_swithin Buy her a few sharks with frikkin lasers on their heads - that'll teach her about life. Or death. I guess that's two of the same thing, huh Zed?

This is exactly why it's so important to choose the right sect. Imagine trying to respect a sect that had ill-tempered Sea Bass fitted with laser attachments instead. I'd die.

Oh, and Zed's dead baby. Zed's dead.

	04-09-2003 12:13									#259
	Re: Re: Growing up in an irreligious household. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I was raised in a completely secular household, and look how good I turned out.

What, do you have a particularly large penis or something?

	04-09-2003 12:19									#260
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Been there, done that.

Yea, but it's kind of gross in elementary school.

	04-09-2003 17:58									#261
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I didn't read the whole thread (I just had an exam, so I didn't check 'poly in days), but in answer to Shi:

As a communist, is it my duty to raise my children into being communists ?

It may be inclined to do so, but is it my duty to do so ?

	04-09-2003 18:00									#262
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I can't answer that. Catholicism has specific rules requiring you to raise your children in the faith. I don't know what the Communist Party has rules for its members in this regard.

	04-09-2003 18:01									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander What, do you have a particularly large penis or something?

Why do you think his girlfriend is so happy with him?

	04-09-2003 18:33									#264
	Re: Re: Re: Growing up in an irreligious household. Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sikander What, do you have a particularly large penis or something?

Probably in the 80th percentile, or so. Nothing parthicularly noteworthy, but I'm happy with it.

	04-09-2003 18:44									#265
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The "official" orthodox jewish line is that miracles have not been possible since the destruction of the Temple in 69 CE. And will not be possible again till the messiah comes and the temple is restored. Some orthodox zionists see a miracle in the building of israel - and take great interest in the paradox that this miracle was largely carried out by agnostic and atheist secular zionists. Chassidic jews, IIUC, still see claim occasional miracles, though theyre subtle. Most Conservative and Reform Jews would see all divine action (including in ancient times) as occuring through man.

The closest one to what I believe is the Conservative/Reform Jews, though a bit more humanistic - that if God is acting in the current day, he is doing so through the likes of Newton, Maxwell, Edison, Locke, and all the other progressive ideas and things that mankind has devised to help lift us from the animals... even including Mozart, Goethe, Shakespeare, etc.

Satan, of course, can be seen in the likes of B. Spears, Donny Osmond, the Teletubbies, and Disney TV (The good guys seem to have control of their animation department, though it was a rough go in the late '90s. )

	04-09-2003 18:48									#266
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Another thing is that I was raised Catholic and I turned out OK - I never thought of it as "oppression" or "indoctrinating" because I always knew that I was free to believe it or not. Therein lies in part of my confusion - I wasn't raised in the manner that I want Sophie to be raised, but the manner that I was raised in did a pretty good job in and of itself. I don't feel "oppressed", I don't feel angry towards the church or anything, it's just not something that I drew a lot of emotional resonance out of.

[aside]

I never considered the fact that it is wrong to (for example) shock your grandmother (or even your teacher) with un-Christian declarations to be "oppression" - it seemed to me to be more a maturity issue than an oppressed issue. Perhaps a few of you are mistaking manners for oppression. [/aside]

	04-09-2003 18:52									#267
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It takes a village to raise a child; but John, you picked a village of cannibals.

	04-09-2003 19:23									#268
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand He isn't going to send her to something he doesn't believe at all. Well, he might. But that's a whole new can of worms.

Look, here's the thing: I don't disbelieve it. As I mentioned in the post above, I was raised Catholic, I went through all the rites (not too successfully though), and, given the fact that you see Catholics in all walks of life (from prostitutes to Presidents) it obviously is not a belief system that is detrimental for success in this society.

My view towards beliefs, sciences, religions, and ideologies is that their main function is as mental "frameworks" that people use to understand the world around them. And, for the most part, one belief system is as good as the next as long as the individual in question doesn't cling too tightly or exclusively to that belief system. And that's really the question I'm asking here: If we don't raise Sophie to believe in God, what do we raise her to believe in? Nothing? That seems kind of cold comfort for a 3 year old.

	04-09-2003 19:24									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian First off, isn't Sophie really young? ... Sending a child to "Sunday School" or whatever when they're in elementary/middle school is... well, I wouldn't do it. I'll leave it at that. -Arrian

Sophie is 23 months old.

Nothing wrong with Sunday school for the children of the devout.

	04-09-2003 19:27									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Ned You have a "legal" obligation as a Catholic to raise your daughter Catholic. She will question your own lack of religious fervor as she grows up. Explain it to her. She can then make up her mind whether she wants to continue her religious education, etc., or stop. You should not make that decision for her now.

According to the rules of the Church, Ned is correct. But, given that I don't accept many of the rules of the Church, Ned, this argument is moot. See my above post where I reference the Reformation and Enlightenment.