02-09-2003 07:04									#31
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there are some people (rush is one) who don't have the game. plus, the way to keep people involved is to present things for them to have interest in.

E_T

	02-09-2003 07:28									#32
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Initial trade proposal for GWT & CFC.

We have an informal agreement with CFC to share contact information and profits, and we need to honor that as it's in our best interest to truely try to befriend and help CFC in this crucial war period. CFC needs to believe that we are partners, not just a bigger team taking advantage of them. If they buy into the partnership they'll respect it and hopefully not screw us over with any rash or illconceived plans.

Here's what we should try to get through contact with GWT:

GWT gives to Poly:
Engineering
Contact with (CGN? A weaker civ that we can trade tech to for contact with CGN? Does it matter?)

Poly gives to GWT:
Feudalism
Contact with CFC

Poly gives to CFC:
Republic
Engineering
Contact with GWT & 3rd civ
(world map?)

CFC gives to Apolyton:
300g
Agreement not to give any tech to GCA, period.


Please post your thoughts on this proposed trade.

--Togas

	02-09-2003 09:25									#33
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I LIKE it... we can use the gold.

	02-09-2003 09:59									#34
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Republic and Engineering is nothing to scoff at...and 300 Gold is basically a scoff. Remember that, although we want to show CFC that we want to be friends and all that, they're likely to be our next competition once GCA goes down.

300 Gold should become around (at least) 550, either in lump sum or gpt (or a combination).

A friendly reminder that we will be taking the GCA burden off of CFC's back might do the trick. We simply cannot set a precedent of giving everything to CFC for free.


Dominae

	02-09-2003 10:15									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Republic and Engineering is nothing to scoff at...and 300 Gold is basically a scoff. Remember that, although we want to show CFC that we want to be friends and all that, they're likely to be our next competition once GCA goes down. 300 Gold should become around (at least) 550, either in lump sum or gpt (or a combination). A friendly reminder that we will be taking the GCA burden off of CFC's back might do the trick. We simply cannot set a precedent of giving everything to CFC for free. Dominae

I agree with Dominae....but, Togas has let it be known that CFC does not exactly trust us 100% yet. If we do this, as set forth, then we are likely trying to buy our way into CFC friendship and possibly a full alliance.

CFC may already get the feeling that they cannot win the game. What if we convinced them to help us win it? We keep them in the game all the way till then end and they work with us exclusively to help us obtain victory, in what ever way we later decide.

	02-09-2003 18:31									#36
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

300 gold is a joke. Republic is THE multiplayer government until Democracy, war weariness or not. Engineering, while not the biggest fish in the sea, isn't a small thing either, being a stepping stone towards Leonardo's (which I still think we should consider chasing after, btw) as well as making rivers no longer a pain.

I agree with Dominae wholeheartedly and then some - the only thing trading those two techs for 300 gold will make CFC think is what a bunch of suckers Apolyton has turned out to be.

	02-09-2003 18:48									#37
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I agree that 300 is way too little. Even though we need CFC to trust us, we can't afford to give them a deal THAT good.

	02-09-2003 19:05									#38
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One other thing to consider:

The "CFC will never give any tech to GCA, ever" clause means that CFC and GCA will probably never strike a peace treaty deal (since GCA rightly wants something more than just peace). This is good because GCA will not get a good chance to use that Leader we think they have. But it is bad in that GCA might just do away with CFC and then it will be just us and GCA. I would rather have CFC around as interference (and possibly more) while we fight GCA.


Dominae

	02-09-2003 20:46									#39
	Got spare money?

It's not just Togas who doesn't think CFC trusts us completely, I've noticed it from their other members. I suspect Octavian does trust us because he is the one guy who we have most contact with. However, the rest of his team still has Poly-CFC biggest civ site in the galaxy grudges.

	02-09-2003 20:52									#40
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What can we give CFC other than techs?

Promises are not always well-received, but it always depends on what you're promising.

Could we promise to divide the continent? Enter a true tech partnership? A free Luxury swap?

They know that they're next once we beat up GCA...I think we can allay those fears with more than just techs. By giving them techs for nothing we're not making them trust us more, we're: 1) showing how desperate we are for Gold, 2) reinforcing their position to eventually meet us on the battlefield. Neither of these shows good will.

The best alliances are made when the parties have something to work towards together. Giving them techs for nothing is not really "work". I suggest we coordinate our battle plans against GCA more, theorize on our policy with the foreign civs, something, anything to get them beyond the bargaining table and into our trust. Look at how cozy RP and GS got once they found something to do together.


Dominae

	02-09-2003 20:54									#41
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My comments about CFC and GWT seem to be in the wrong threads. Sorry about that.


Dominae

	03-09-2003 06:02									#42
	GWT is at War, because they are experencing War Weariness Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I looked at the % of taxes that GWT is using for it's lux slider (4 trade for lux) and the fact that they have 3 luxuries....

And I played with our lux slider and poly's WF to get 4 trade with our 2 luxes and we have the same level of happiness (4 happy, 2 unhappy) as they do. If we had one more luxury, as they do, then we would have 4 happy, 1 content and 1 unhappy.

This shows that there is something else that is affecting their happiness levels, and with them being in Republic, that could only be War Weariness. So, We DO know that they are at war, just not with whom.

E_T

	03-09-2003 07:45									#43
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They could have pop rushed something shortly before changing to republic.

	03-09-2003 11:00									#44
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Must be nice to start with 2 game and wheat in your capital radius, eh?

::Mumbles and wanders off::

	03-09-2003 11:23									#45
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The Godz surely were not on our side. I've read a draft of Adrian Hon's article about the ISDG. He brings up a very valid point. He says that all the teams have very good players and mistakes are likely to be few and there are chances that each team has to make, but still, the overall playing abilities of the teams should be pretty much equal. So, the only thing that really seperates one team from another in such a complex strategy game is the start position and lands made available to a Civ. Location, Location, Location. It is so true in this game. How many times have you started up a game only to find out how horrible of a start position you got, then re-started?

In a game of chess, each opponent starts on a level playing field. In games of Civ, we all know that the playing field can be favorable to certain Civ's while not so for others. By luck of the draw or otherwise, we ended up with a pretty lousy start, while some of the other teams have ended up with great starts.

I would say that GWT and CGN got the best starts of all teams.

I would say that CFC and GCA got mediocre starts.

I would say Apolyton had a horrible start.

I can't say for Firaxis or Gren what kind of starts they had, or if the screwed up their respectives starts as badly as CDG played it's game; but I'd bet they did not have starts as good as CGN or GWT.

	03-09-2003 17:10									#46
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I wonder how good Firaxis is playing, I don't know about the current situation, but I heard comments from Soren before this thing started that he didn't believe for a minute that they could do the same min-maxing as we (GS, but it certainly applies to Apolyton ISDG team too) did. How many Firaxians are really playing this? If only 1 or 2, there won't be many discussions, there won't be a lot of planning, and even with a great start, every focused team with a decent start could outclass them.

Part of the reason why all teams are kind of equal in abilities is sheer size: with many participants, many good ideas will surface. I don't think Firaxis has such a large team, even if they have 'inside information' on how the game works.

DeepO

	03-09-2003 19:13									#47
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Sheesh. I guess Mongoose wasn't kidding about some teams have great start spots. Wasn't he supposed to make sure things were balanced?

	04-09-2003 01:23									#48
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Yep, this was a map he thought was OK. Not too harsh on anyone... Yeah, right!

	04-09-2003 01:33									#49
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, it could be that we've got all the rubber over here in our super-jungle, and also have oil in our desert, and uranium and aluminum in the mountains; never know what the future holds.

I think if we had oil and rubber and CGN and the Webring were lacking it, things might go very well for us later on.

	04-09-2003 02:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Well, it could be that we've got all the rubber over here in our super-jungle, and also have oil in our desert, and uranium and aluminum in the mountains; never know what the future holds. I think if we had oil and rubber and CGN and the Webring were lacking it, things might go very well for us later on.

If we have to wait to find out those things are true or not, the game might be over by then.

Mongoose did a horrible injustice to the community by claiming that the starts positions were relatively equal. At least that is what he was suppose to do. How many random maps did he have to generate before he settled on one in particular? What are the chances he has an alias and is a member of CGN? Unless we access to check everyones IP's, then even that is not conclusive, we won't know. But, there are enough irregularities in this game for the question to even be brought up.

What the community should have done is have Firaxis act as a sponsor for the game/tournament. They could have overseen the game and made sure the map was generally equall for all.

For the next ISDG, I'd like to see a touranament like competition. One team against another, with start positions that are very simular.

I seriously doubt we have all the Rubber and/or Oil on our Continent; if we do, then he really f*cked up his job!

	04-09-2003 02:07									#51
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We do have 10/12th of the iron...

	04-09-2003 02:21									#52
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If we have 10/12 of the Rubber and Oil, so what, CGN and GWT each have one. They would have to have none to even come close to making this map sort of even, AND then, what chances do they have if they don't have Rubber? I say none. Rubber is a neccesity as is Oil. A team won't survive into the 4th era for long with out those.

	04-09-2003 08:46									#53
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My own response notwithstanding (which I should not have posted) let's keep our eye on the ball. Let's keep our eye on winning the game despite the crap start.

That will be far more gratifying than grousing about the starts and the map 'deviations'. All the kvetching in the world will do us no good if we place poorly.

OTOH, let us do what we can do. When the game ends, we may post our start terrain, and compare with others. We can also compare with what each has accomplished. Should we win, then hahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha. Ha!

I think we will come out well, so long as we do not whine too much.

	04-09-2003 09:17									#54
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Should we win, then hahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha. Ha!

You know, I can actually imagine you saying that...

	04-09-2003 09:53									#55
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I hope no one takes this the wrong way...

Having seen the performance of various teams in various team demogames, there is in fact a wide spectrum of capability and execution in "building" especially, due, I am sure, to both Civ3 skill and team inptut / interaction.

On a separate level, there is an equally wide spectrum re military strategy and tacts, well planned / executed or not.

'Poly teams, in general, excel.

I am particularly proud of GS and this, the 'poly ISDG team.

Let me take that a step further... I like to think I am pretty damn good at Civ3, but what I have seen in the two DG teams of which I am a member has BLOWN ME AWAY!

Kudos to all!

For us, pulling out an ISDG win given our relative start... it will be an achievement of note in my book.

	04-09-2003 11:54									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Let me take that a step further... I like to think I am pretty damn good at Civ3, but what I have seen in the two DG teams of which I am a member has BLOWN ME AWAY!

The great thing about this team is that each of us has pooled his best talent into his particular job within the game. Efficient division of labor as Adam Smith would put it, where instead of everyone does everything, we all specialize in what we're best at. Thus, a team game like this is conceivably far superior to anything we as individuals could ever hope to play under the same circumstances.

I'd like to echo Theseus' sentiments and a big to everyone here!

	04-09-2003 12:36									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

our first reply from GWT (Darekill had originally answered my e-mail but only to say he wasn't very active in the ISDG and that feanor0815 was to be our ambassador)

quote: Hello to Apolyton & greetings too from the Webringen people. Like you we think, that cooperation is the best way to gain advantage in the game and think that we can establish a prosperous relationship between our two nations. Of course we're interested in both, contact and feudalism but are still discussing. Engeneering may work for Feud but we think there should be some compensation for the price difference that's about 240G so say our analysts. I am reachable over email or Webring/Apolyton PM. feanor0815 webringen Ambassador

this along with the e-mail I had sent Darekill are posted in the correspondence thread.

	04-09-2003 14:25									#58
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This is BS!

The formula is like this:

[MM * [10*COST * (1 - N/[CL*1.75])]/(CF * 10)]

Substituting in for Feud we get:

[240 * [10*32 * (1 - 1/[7*1.75])]/(10 * 10)]

Which equals: ~705

The substituting in for Eng we get:

[240 * [10*36 * (1 - 1/[7*1.75])]/(10 * 10)]

Which equals ~793

So, the difference is ~88 gold/commerce.


Both of these figures assumes that only 1 Civ has their repective Tech and that there are 7 Civs left. Seeing how we dont know anyone else with Eng or GWT not knowing anyone else with Feud, these are the correct formulas.

For the post that shows this is the right formula, go here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...3254#post423254

This does not even factor in that we may have a certain portion of Eng already done...or the fact that GWT has a certain portion already done for Feud.

What is best for both teams to understand is that we will never know what the other team has already invested in that particular tech, ever! So, we should just trade based upon what the cost for each tech is plus/minus other factors like the use of such Tech or the ability of a Civ to get it from another source.

I say we tell GWT that we factored out the costs for both techs and found the difference to be smaller than what they are saying. We include in this response the formulas and figures from up above. We ask that the Tech trade be made starught up, with no compensation for difference in costs as a show of goodwill and the willingness to trade further on down the line.

If they stick to the story that they must be compensated, the max we will pay is 40 gold at 2 gpt.

I also want to find out if they have any harbors built and if they have any luxuries to trade;if so, I want a Harbor planned to built immediately in Hispanica.

	04-09-2003 15:17									#59
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As a show of good-will, it would probably be better to mention the formula, and offer 40 gold right off the bat, instead of asking that they waive the difference. First impressions are everything, let's leave the impression we want to work together, instead of leaving the impression we that we only want to profit from them. The faster we have a good contact going with Webring, the better. If they are allowed to explore further, we won't have the monopoly on trades we currently have.

DeepO

	04-09-2003 15:21									#60
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Oh, couldn't the 240 gold be a typo?

Or perhaps more teams on the other continent have Feud already, and for them not 1 but 3-4 teams other then them have it? We wouldn't see that for as long as we don't have contact. For all we know, Feud is already known to everyone but Webring and CFC/CGA, while invention is only known to Webring.

DeepO