10-09-2003 20:22									#91
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The team with the Pyramids would win.


Dominae

	10-09-2003 21:03									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Trip CGN is bigger because they've wiped out Grenouille entirely and absorbed their land, while GWT has not done the same with Firaxis - yet.

did I miss something, how do we know the details of those wars.

	10-09-2003 21:26									#93
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I like the trade, although I'm a little peeved that at first they didn't like our offer of Feud for Eng straight up; they wanted gold as compensation because Eng costs more beakers than Feud. But now that they want to do a combo trade, with us giving Invention for Monotheism, they throw out the ealier request for the gold. Hmmm.

So, while it was ok for them to ask for gold from us in an uneven tech exchange that favored us, it is not ok for us to ask or for them to even offer gold to us in this second deal that favors them? This just doesn't sit well with me. I mean I think the deal is a pretty fair one, even if it favors them, if it were not for the fact that they just asked for 200 gold when we were just dealing Feud for Eng...

There's also a second part to this equation: CFC.

Since CFC is researching Mono right now, could it be possible that GWT has a deal to get it from CFC??? I admit it's not likely since there are only 3 techs to research at the begining of this age, so what could GWT be offering CFC for Mono.

Then we have this situation going on: Both CFC and GWT are going to be researching Mono and THEN, likely, they will both do Chivalry! We need to stop this and get one of them to commit to Theology, most likely GWT; while we go onto Gunpowder after Invention. We might even ask CFC to switch to researching Monarchy now, which can come in handy.

Then we may be able to talk GWT and CFC into teaming up against CGN. Once the war is going, and CGN is weakened a bit, CFC and Apolyton back-stab GWT and both CFC and Apolyton get a foothold on the other continent.

	10-09-2003 21:28									#94
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel did I miss something, how do we know the details of those wars.

While we don't know the details per se, we do know that Gren has been eliminated from the game. As to who took out whom....I don't know, but Trip frequents the other public forums quite often and he picks up little tidbits here and there.

	10-09-2003 22:03									#95
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It was posted at the Grenouille public forum that the war against CGN wasn't going well, as found by NYE and Octavian.

The problem I see with this deal is what we're going to do about CFC and Monotheism. I mean, with this deal we basically give CFC Engineering free and give GWT Invention free. I'm all for being generous, but geeze.

	10-09-2003 22:11									#96
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree So, while it was ok for them to ask for gold from us in an uneven tech exchange that favored us, it is not ok for us to ask or for them to even offer gold to us in this second deal that favors them? This just doesn't sit well with me. I mean I think the deal is a pretty fair one, even if it favors them, if it were not for the fact that they just asked for 200 gold when we were just dealing Feud for Eng...

The thing is that there is someone else they can get Feudalism from - CFC. OTOH, they (GWT) are - at the moment - the exclusive source of Engineering. That makes the price/value of Feudalism go down relative to the price/value of Engineering... at least I would consider such a reasoning perfectly ok.

	10-09-2003 23:36									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Trip CGN is bigger because they've wiped out Grenouille entirely and absorbed their land, while GWT has not done the same with Firaxis - yet. They're definitely both big and bad though. I wouldn't want to make bets on who would win a war between them.

We would.

	11-09-2003 03:56									#98
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack The thing is that there is someone else they can get Feudalism from - CFC. OTOH, they (GWT) are - at the moment - the exclusive source of Engineering. That makes the price/value of Feudalism go down relative to the price/value of Engineering... at least I would consider such a reasoning perfectly ok.

But, they do not know that we don't have a permanent "no trade" clause with CFC concerning Feud. Our agreement with CFC strictly forbids CFC from even discussing possible trades with GWT. That being the case, GWT may have already got the cold shoulder from CFC about GWT inquiries as to Feud.

Also, GWT has to know/assume/reason that whatever tech they give to CFC will more than likely end up in Apolyton's hands anyways.

We do need the FAM to contact CFC regarding this aspect as find out what kind of messages have been going back and forth between GWT and CFC. Is GWT trying to sell Eng to CFC? Or did CFC tell GWT that they will get Eng from us?

	11-09-2003 05:52									#99
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Am I reading that message different from all the rest?

I see it as saying OK to Feud-Eng, and then suggesting future research targets, not commitments to trade them.

Perhaps we could negotiate on the future trades? Maybe Invention and Chivalry (from us) for Monotheism and Theology?

What could be cool, is we get CFC to research Chivalry while we do Gun Powder. Then we give CFC GP and they can do 40 turn Chemistry, while we wheel and deal with GWT and CGN over the top half (2/3rds actually) of the tech tree...

We would therefore be much safer from any CFC mischief, seeing as we would have muskets parked in fortified choke points.

Just a thought.

	11-09-2003 06:29									#100
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NYE is right.

This letter from them basicly OKs a straight up trade of Eng for Feud. However, they may expect a straigh-up trade in the future if we follow their suggested line of research.

Either way, this is a good deal for us. They appear to be showing us trust with this uneven trade and putting faith that we will return the trust in the future. This the most most generous and uncomplicated trade deal we've yet worked out, every other team we've talked to has tried to manipulate us into giving them a better deal.

I strongly suggest that we approve this deal and that we make it equally simple, showing faith and trust in them. We need not burden this with complicated legalistic rules and conditions, nor try to condition this trade upon them staying out of our area of influence.

We still do not know their world, nor do they know our world. We could later exert political pressure on them, if needed, but if we put pressure too soon, we will be perceived as hostile negotiators, and also seen as trying to hide something ... in the same fashion that CDG tried to hide GCA from us.

My reccomendation:

Trade Feud for Eng
Tell them what we're researching next, but don't promise to trade yet. (however, I'd still do this trade even if they wanted a promise of a future trade, but it doesn't seem that they do).
TALK TO CFC about this. We send them Eng. CFC may as well do 0 research because they aren't going to beat GWT to Monotheism, nor will they beat GWT to Chivalry. CFC is pretty much in techbuying land. CFC needs to stock up gold to buy tech from us once we get it ourselves and buy it from GWT. We can promise CFC very cut-rate prices too (and attach no-trades).

Frankly, partnering with CFC for tech research is dumb. GWT is a better partner and with the narrow path that research takes right now, we can count CFC out of the tech race for a while, if not forever.

--Togas

	11-09-2003 06:43									#101
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Togas - and nye - agreed. The first trade is important. I say we do it, with the follow-up as proposed.

	11-09-2003 06:56									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Either way, this is a good deal for us. They appear to be showing us trust with this uneven trade and putting faith that we will return the trust in the future. This the most most generous and uncomplicated trade deal we've yet worked out, every other team we've talked to has tried to manipulate us into giving them a better deal.

This is typical of how GoW negotiates with ND.
Plain, open, dont screw us and we wont screw you.
Earn their trust, and they make a great ally.

quote: Originally posted by Togas I strongly suggest that we approve this deal and that we make it equally simple, showing faith and trust in them. We need not burden this with complicated legalistic rules and conditions, nor try to condition this trade upon them staying out of our area of influence. Trade Feud for Eng Tell them what we're researching next, but don't promise to trade yet. (however, I'd still do this trade even if they wanted a promise of a future trade, but it doesn't seem that they do). TALK TO CFC about this. We send them Eng. CFC may as well do 0 research because they aren't going to beat GWT to Monotheism, nor will they beat GWT to Chivalry. CFC is pretty much in techbuying land. CFC needs to stock up gold to buy tech from us once we get it ourselves and buy it from GWT. We can promise CFC very cut-rate prices too (and attach no-trades). Frankly, partnering with CFC for tech research is dumb. GWT is a better partner and with the narrow path that research takes right now, we can count CFC out of the tech race for a while, if not forever. --Togas

Hmmm...

This goes back to the do we align with CFC thread ?

Our plan was continental domination.
If still possible, I still think we should aim for it.

Cut CFC loose...align with GWT, and support them against CGN.
While we quietly dominate our continent.

If this is the plan however, then dont screw GWT and undercut their sales to CFC. You dont do that to allies.

Regs

	11-09-2003 07:04									#103
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There is one fly in the ointment. The no trade for 20 turns. That means we have to delay giving CFC Eng, but they would have to wait 26 or 27 to get it from us if we have to finish it the hard way...

One other thing, I would not count GWT as being closer to Mono than CFC is. When we built the embassy they were at 10% science, which means 40 turn research.

Now, the question remains, have they been on Feudalism, and thus wasted some large number of turns, or have they been on Mono for longer than CFC has? With them living on a violent continent, I would put money on them having been on Feudalism, and that CFC may very well get to Mono before they do.

With only 4 viable civs left (excluding GCA who should not remain viable for long) I would not discount CFC. I would certainly not discount them as we have no clue how things will shape up in the near to mid term. Will we be able to continue trading with GWT? Will we be able to trade with CGN at all? How many galleys will we go though before we cross, and will a channel to CGN still exist by that time (ie can we get to them without going through GWT cultural territory and thus annoying them)?

	11-09-2003 07:13									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel If this is the plan however, then dont screw GWT and undercut their sales to CFC. You dont do that to allies.

Good point. However, we are already commited to Mono for Eng with CFC. We have already undercut that. The only q remains, do we get Eng now and wait 20 turns to give it to CFC, or do we finish it in 26 and then give it to CFC.

If we get Eng now, we can get on to Invention, and have it likely before the GA ends. We could then do Chivalry while CFC does 30 or 40 turn Gun Powder.

Once we get past Theology, everything opens up for our larger economy to do it's job, while CFC plods on towards Miltary Tradition and/or Physics.

	11-09-2003 07:17									#105
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If we can make a solid relationship with GWT tech-trading and otherwise, then we can re-evaluate our relationship with CFC, post-GCA.

	11-09-2003 11:04									#106
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Hmmm... good points re: the meaning of the message, nye & Togas - I myself misread it seeing too much into it. Agreed with Togas (and others) about being easy and taking the simple, straightforward deal (Feu for Eng).

	11-09-2003 11:28									#107
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Ok, agreed on Feu for Eng.

I would still like to chat with Octavian first, and THEN see if I can talk with feanor too. Let's not rush on the deal because it really needs to be well thought of and as "tech-efficient" as possible.

	11-09-2003 11:33									#108
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Hell. Let's get this one done, without seeming to fall all over ourselves to do it.

Then we can proceed with caution.

	11-09-2003 11:45									#109
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The message from GWT isn't all that clear. To me it reads that they expect a future trade deal. Maybe we can clear this up by submitting a clear cut proposal to trade Feud for Eng with a 20 turn no trade clause and no mention of anything else. Have this proposal 'signed' by us, officially, and send it to them with instructions fro them to 'sign it' and send it back.

	11-09-2003 14:43									#110
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Hmmm... I was thinking about NYE comment about us researching Chivalry (I know this is down the road a bit, but I think he made a miscalculation). Chivalry will be a key componnet to GWT. It will give them their UU and set them up for a great GA at an ideal time for them. I do not forsee them agreeing to let us research such an important tech (to them) with only the promise to trade it. They will want to hold their destiny in their own hands.

	11-09-2003 17:35									#111
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What if we send them a message agreeing to the proposed Feud for Eng trade, and nothing else agreed, but in the same message ask them if they are willing to discuss proposals for a longer term research collaboration?

Now let's look at what we could do without CFC cooperation or help.

We can either research Mono or Invention next. I think it's fair to assume that GWT wants Mono in their hands for certain, so they likely will not budge on this issue, but we should ask anyway. After that they would definitely get Chiv, and we could go for Theol or Gunpwder - I don't see an easy trade here as these techs have very different values: Chiv is 32, Gunpowder 48 and Theol 40. If we go with both of their proposed trades: we give Feud now then Inv later, and they give Eng now and Mono later we end up just as badly off for this dual deal as they would have were we to just trade Feud for their Eng. Us: Feud(32) + Inv(44) = 76; them Eng(36) + Mono(36) = 72. We would have to ask for gold/contacts. Perhaps we could politely ask in negotiations for the same amount of gold they wanted from us for Feud/Eng?

If we see CFC with a hand in this, we would have a no-trade clause for anything GWT gave us for 20 turns. Now CFC must be researching either Mono or Eng (very likely Mono). They should be roughly as far from Mono as we are from Eng, as both of us got Feud at the same time. If GWT has been going for Feud, then unless they are spending more than a little on research, it will take CFC less time to get to Mono (around 20 turns). Thus, after 20 turns CFC may get Mono, we can trade them Eng for it and this is an even trade (each tech worth 36). This leaves us with the problem of what we could agree with GWT. They could be going for Invention, which leaves them with no easy trade with us. They would definitely go for Mono however (getting to Chivalry). But we may be able to get Mono from CFC in around 20 turns, probably before they can. The best solution in this case would be to get GWT to save their money. I don't think this is too likely.


Now to what I'd like to see happen: there are many maybes and ifs here. This is because we don't know. So let's find out. Let us get Eng from GWT now. Then we need to know whether CFC and GWT have met, and if so, whether one party would be prepared to deal with us first in trades, in return for perhaps some favour in trades. For GWT we could agree to trade Invention for Monotheism (which favours them), and with CFC we could give them Republic at a cut price.

Now, what would be the problem with letting CFC know we will get Eng ready for them in about 20 turns (trade with GWT, then we can trade to CFC after the 20-turn no-trade agreement), and finding out how long they will take for Mono? This could just help convince them we are trying to help them.... We could also tell GWT we are currently researching at 40 turns and are likely to be doing so for the near future, and ask them how long it would take them to get Mono or Inv themselves? Once we have this knowledge we can perhaps start to plan things out. And how does this little bit of info compromise us in any way? All it can do is help us to plan better what trades are possible.

I am sorry of all this is a mess, but it is really hard to surmise without many facts. If we are a little more forthcoming with info for info in return, we can do without these sort of posts. What would the harm be as tech trades go?

	11-09-2003 20:10									#112
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GWT has met CFC.

Fued for Eng now, with no promises of anything later.

	11-09-2003 20:31									#113
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Yes, based on the "lines" on the diplo mainscreen, GWT met CFC between turns 113 and 114.

	19-09-2003 05:09									#114
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The new letter from GWT (in broken English) SEEMS to be saying that they want us to agree to give them Feud + Inv for Eng + Monotheism.

quote: it should have been accepted but was only send i think. The trade restriction and future research was thought as part of the deal. So after that you would be in advance for the next trade.

Here's the rub: Our intelligence indicates that CFC was working on Monotheism long before GWT, and our screenshot seems to indicate that GWT are going with very little science. The experts tell tell me that CFC will get the tech first and since they owe us Monotheism, it seems silly for us to give Invention to GWT for nothing.

However this only our best guess. We could be wrong. I'd like discussion once again about trading with GWT. My preference is to give them Feud + gold for Eng. However, last time they asked for far too much.

--Togas

	19-09-2003 05:14									#115
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Where did you get the info from that CFC was closer to Monotheism than GWT?

If GWT started Monotheism right when it got into the Medieval Age then they should be about 10 turns ahead of CFC, even if they've only been at 10% science the entire time.

	19-09-2003 07:56									#116
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I think Togas may be referring to my words. I said that I assume that GWT is on Feudalism now, since that is the militarily useful first leg of the drive to Chivalry.

If they got Feudalism from us now and switched to Mono, they would be 15 turns behind CFC at this point.

	19-09-2003 08:07									#117
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I think Togas may be referring to my words. I said that I assume that GWT is on Feudalism now, since that is the militarily useful first leg of the drive to Chivalry. If they got Feudalism from us now and switched to Mono, they would be 15 turns behind CFC at this point.

If they did indeed start with Feudalism, that would be correct.

	19-09-2003 10:30									#118
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ANYHOW, the point being, what should we do? I'd like suggestions and opinions from the team about if we should trade and under what terms.

Personally, I'm in favor of a trade of only Feud for Eng, but we agree to throw in some cash to even it out. The question in my mind is, how much? They wanted in excess of 200g. I need to know what our Consuls feel we could part with.

--Togas

	19-09-2003 10:49									#119
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My 2cents ...

We need a good strong ally on the other continent. Webring is perfect for this because we know them from the PTWDG.

Support Webring against CGN, so that they can dominate and take over their continent.
Meanwhile, we take over ours.

Then when it becomes a 2 team game... my money is on us (Commercial & Indistrious) vs (Religeous & Expansionist)
Especially since they have to tackle and destroy a monster civ, while we should be able to roll over the two here.

So my opinion is.. deal with Webring. Let them know our current situation, but tell them we will still do the deal.
In return, can we get some news from their continent.
Is CGN their friend or foe ?
Are we able to arrange some long term tech sharing deals deal now ? What can we do to help dominate their continent ? How long before it is just the two teams left ? What resources are they lacking ? etc etc.

I know we cant do much about the resource thing, but it helps with intel.

{edit} - And here is a thought.
Webring will be getting Chivalry soon. That means cheap 3 move ansars & a GA. A perfect time to take on CGN. If possible, I think this should be encouraged. Two huge teams going at it while we quietly dominate our own continent.

So in summary... screw CFC

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 19-09-2003 at 10:57

	19-09-2003 11:15									#120
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200 gold is absurd, and out of the question. I believe we already set our top price for it. 40 gold, in addition to Feudalism.