04-09-2003 15:53									#61
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Politely suggest that they look at our formula.

And ask where they come from, as we will be sending our own suicide galley.

If they think there is a chance we might meet up with their neighbors and will have to enter a bidding war, then perhaps they will drop price.

Regs

	04-09-2003 17:36									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon 300 gold is a joke. Republic is THE multiplayer government until Democracy, war weariness or not. I agree with Dominae wholeheartedly and then some - the only thing trading those two techs for 300 gold will make CFC think is what a bunch of suckers Apolyton has turned out to be.

o.0

Republic may be a great little government in the times you can use it but it is only helping us now because
1. We are not at war and thus no WW
2. we are not at war and thus can utilise the benefits without worrying about losing terrain improvements or having to rapidly rush expensive (for upkeep) units constantly to replenish what we have lost

It can be done, but a Republic at war SUCKS unless you have multiple lux, a good productive core well away from the fighting and/or some nice happiness boosting Wonders. None of which CFC have. Further, it makes no difference to us whether or not CFC has Engineering - it doesn't help them towards Chivalry, the REAL concern. CFC cannot claim half of our GNP, and we are not exactly booming in tech, with our well-planned and safe (for the moment) Republican cities.

On the other hand, CFC could likely not support much more than 300 gold - hell, they likely can't make this amount! So why would we consider a trade at all, if we are making enough gold for us to prepare ourselves? Answer: to get CFC on our side. They are noticeably reticent in trusting us, and what have we done for them so far? Nothing. If we are asking them to trust us, we need to make it worth their while. I agree that giving CFC both Republic and Engineering for 300 gold and a measly agreement not to trade to GCA is not good enough for us, but I see no reason why to not give CFC either Republic or Engineering - what are they going to do with it that threatens us? If we are keeping them in the war as part of the agreement, they can't stop to develop as we have been doing. If we give them one of these for whatever gold we can get and a no-trade no-peace agreement against GCA, the best that they can manage is having GWT gift them Republic. Is that going to happen? No.

So stop and think a moment - 300 gold and a no-peace agreement against GCA for Republic and/or Engineering sounds terrible straight up. But look at the situation.

We need CFC to trust us. We will not be at threat from CFC in Republic. Engineering does not help them towards Chivalry, what must be their big target right now. If we get as much from them as possible for one of Eng or Rep, there is no trade possible for some time with GWT. Why not accept a trade along the lines posted by Togas?

	04-09-2003 18:50									#63
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PS ..
And ask them what they are studying..
What their alliance partners are studying
And what we should be studying

	04-09-2003 19:39									#64
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Take the deal!

*Something* is better than NOTHING, right!?!


Sigh...


Dominae

	04-09-2003 19:47									#65
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Can we move the CFC discussion to another thread once and for all please?

Currently the cost for us to finish Engineering would be 780 beakers. The cost for Feudalism at it's max is 624. So there is a difference, but certainly not 240 gold. Especially considering that we just sold two techs and contacts (not to mention Engineering itself) for that amount.

Plus, it's not as though we even have access to that much cash. They're probably just milking the tech they got from CGN while they can.

	04-09-2003 19:55									#66
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I agree with DeepO and H_E.

I will write a response later on in the day and post it for review.

	04-09-2003 21:27									#67
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A typo in a diplomatic message? I would hope that gross an error had not occurred.

I also think it's rather unlikely that the Grennies or Firaxis are feudal, given that they're about to DIE?

	04-09-2003 22:54									#68
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And also given the fact that when Firaxis dropped off the list it wasn't Medieval while GWT and CGN had been Medieval for some time.

	05-09-2003 02:59									#69
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree What the community should have done is have Firaxis act as a sponsor for the game/tournament. They could have overseen the game and made sure the map was generally equall for all.

That was the original intent. Then Firaxis said they wanted to play, and 1BC could not get a team together.

edit - (I meant to say '1BC could NOT get a team together')

Regarding Mongoose and the starts, I suspect it may not have been deliberate but more a case of him not knowing how 'good' or 'bad' certain starts were really were. In retrospect, having a small team of knowledgeable players who were not going to partake of the game set it up and review for fairness would have been a better option.

	05-09-2003 08:46									#70
	Got spare money?

Proposed response:

quote: Greetings to the Webring, Our team is currently discussing your proposal for the technology and contact trade. However, we feel that 240g it too much an amount for the difference using the traditional beaker-to-gold calculations. Furthermore, we currently do not have such a stock of gold available. We were thinking of compensation in one of the following ways. 1) We can either accept the trade as is and make arrangements for a future technology trade which favours the Webring in terms of beaker costs, or 2) we can compensate in gold but with a more realistic amount. Should you decide on the second option, we have sent you Contact with CFC, Feudalism and 2 gold per turn unaccepted this turn. If such a deal is satisfactory then you may accept it, if not we can further negotiate in this matter. By the way, the forumla for calculating tech costs can be found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...3254#post423254 On another note, we are interested in a more long-term technological partnership. We would like to know what technologies you are planning to research so we can adjust our own research accordingly and reap the benefits mutually via trade. We await your response and in the meantime wish you the best. -Master Zen Apolyton Ambassador

	05-09-2003 09:02									#71
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As I just commented in chat, this seems a little arrogant (slightly implying they've got their formula and/or calculations wrong):

quote: By the way, the forumla for calculating tech costs can be found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...3254#post423254

I think it should be re-worded; just putting it in parentheses after "traditional beaker-to-gold calculations" would work, I think, since it's stated "traditional" rather than "correct".

	05-09-2003 09:06									#72
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Kloreep made some interesting suggestons. Rephrased:

quote: Greetings to the Webring, Our team is currently discussing your proposal for the technology and contact trade. However, we feel that 240g it too much an amount for the difference using the traditional beaker-to-gold calculations that we've used so far(http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...3254#post423254). Furthermore, we currently do not have such a stock of gold available. We were thinking of compensation in one of the following ways. 1) We can either accept the trade as is and make arrangements for a future technology trade which favours the Webring in terms of beaker costs, or 2) we can compensate in gold but with a more realistic amount. Should you decide on the second option, we have sent you Contact with CFC, Feudalism and 2 gold per turn unaccepted this turn. If such a deal is satisfactory then you may accept it, if not we can further negotiate in this matter. On another note, we are interested in a more long-term technological partnership. We would like to know what technologies you are planning to research so we can adjust our own research accordingly and reap the benefits mutually via trade. We were currently starting on Engineering ourselves which means that if this trade goes through we can switch to another tech which might also interest your team for a future exchange. We await your response and in the meantime wish you the best. We would like to have a small chat one of these days, with some of your team members getting to know our own. We can arrange something in IRC perhaps. For my part, my ICQ is 89031042 and my MSN is raguil AT hotmail DOT com. Feel free to contact me anytime I'm available. -Master Zen Apolyton Ambassador

	05-09-2003 09:24									#73
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General questions: do we have a policy for tech sales/purchases, or do we just try to strike the best deal given the circumstances?


Dominae

	05-09-2003 09:31									#74
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Market economics

(in other words, best deal given the circumstances)

	05-09-2003 10:45									#75
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The current draft is fine, minus the reference to the CFC contact.

	05-09-2003 11:47									#76
	Got spare money?

Remember, they know we have contact with CGA and are going to be wondering why we are not offering it...

	05-09-2003 11:54									#77
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For the same reasons they are not offering contact with CGN, Firaxis and Gren.......

No biggie.

	06-09-2003 02:38									#78
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I sent the proposal to feanor yesterday night. I will be away for the weekend though. I have PMed him to forward anything to Togas during these days.

Cya all on sunday

	09-09-2003 21:54									#79
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Have we heard anything new from these people?

I know that they refused our offer this last turn. With the save taking atleast 2 days to get back to us, why haven't we gotten them in chat or something??

Or are they just thumbing their nose at us?

E_T

	09-09-2003 22:01									#80
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Darekill's computer got torched (literally, along with part of his house), but I don't know about the rest of them.

Maybe Firaxis is beating down on them and they're losing interest...

Last edited by Trip on 09-09-2003 at 22:20

	09-09-2003 22:06									#81
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No answer...

	10-09-2003 11:44									#82
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Answer!!!

quote: Hello Master Zen, sorry for delay but WE and interesting progress has lead us in some discussion. Nevertheless we would accept Feudalism for Engeneering. Then our future science would be Monotheism if you could go on Invention. A restriction would be that the Techs shouldn`t be traded for 20 Turns. on ICQ i'm available on 172223878 btw feanor0815 Webringen Ambassador

Ok my thoughts:

They are definitely on a race to get Chivalry. With Ansars they could probably attempt to skull-**** CGN (ND spirit after all). This is the reason they are going for mono. Now, notice that they are not asking for any gold for compensation, but rather to continue the deal with mono for invention.

That would mean, we give Feud + Invention (32+44=66)
They give Eng + Mono (36+36=62).

This deal of course favors them although not that much in the aggregate anymore. I think it's a sound deal, although I do not want them to get too powerful against CGN. We should use this time to get contact with CGN and see what power balancing we can do.

	10-09-2003 12:07									#83
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't our numbers showing CGN to be stronger than Web? If so, maybe we should play dumb and help out. We might be able to finish off GCA in such timing that right as CGN expends most of its energy fighting Web, we/CFC strike at the other continent, setting up a foothold there.

The timing on that is a little tight and requires us getting either the Lighthouse or Astronomy pronto, but after we smash GCA we'll have reason to want to do so. Or am I looking too far ahead here?

	10-09-2003 12:10									#84
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One can seldom look too far ahead, within reason.

	10-09-2003 13:19									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't our numbers showing CGN to be stronger than Web? If so, maybe we should play dumb and help out. We might be able to finish off GCA in such timing that right as CGN expends most of its energy fighting Web, we/CFC strike at the other continent, setting up a foothold there.

Yes, but the fact that GWT will soon get its UU might tip the scales.

I'm going to spill some PTWDG guts here, but perhaps ND is using the military strategy GoW used (and they know very well what it is). We had a horseman based army up until chivalry. IIRC we never even built a swordsman. We were placing all our bets on a massive upgrade which fortunately we achieved.

So, perhaps GWT is simply going under the radar preparing for a strike later. They know Arabia, they know Ansars, they probably have the best natural experience with their civ than any other team in this game. That is a huge advantage. In short, they know what they're doing.

GWT would be the last team I'd underestimate in this game.

	10-09-2003 13:52									#86
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I like the deal, Feu+Inv for Eng+Mono - it's perfectly along what I believe should be the very principle of a successful trading strategy. We get what we need, they get what they want (without getting too much extra from us), both sides are happy and tied up for some time. In the meanwhile, we find CGN and crush GCA.

Plus - correct me if I'm wrong, but this would mean they have made no tech deal with CFC, right?

Sweet.

	10-09-2003 14:01									#87
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May I ask what the stats of ansars are? With all these knight UU like the mongol and arabian ones I get confused
Am I thinking correctly the ansar is a 4/2/2 for less shields? (And the mongol one is a 4/2/3 with mountain advantage?)
Thanks

	10-09-2003 18:16									#88
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Close, but not quite:

Ansar: 4/2/3.
Keshik: 4/2/2 cheaper/mountainwalk

	10-09-2003 18:40									#89
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Something to consider: in addition to this tech trade (which sounds good to me), we could think about agreeing with GWT not to interfere in each other's continents issues. No settlement in each others' continent, no declaring war on any side or providing assistance with other civs beyond tech or map trades.

This may not be of much use right now, but as time goes on and we have more dealings with each other, it may pay to agree to keep a certain level of cooperation with each other. We are arguably the second most successful on our respective landmasses, and we should aim to foster friendship. A non-intervention agreement of some kind could prevent possible problems in the GCA war due to the extra element of GWT, and I'm sure they would think the same for any ward they are/will be involved in.

We know that CFC will be researching Mono (hinted at in the latest chat with OctX), so we may have two sources for this. Which do we commit to? Or do we commit to both in order to get it soonest, and just fulfill our half of the bargain for the civ that we don't get Mono off of? We would be giving away a tech, effectively. This would be good for goodwill, so we should try to ensure that, if such a thing happens, it is to (weakened) CFC. However, we should try to find a backup plan so we can get SOMEthing out of each team in two trades.

My head is starting to hurt. This will take some organising with OctX. We should really try to find out what we can get from both GWT and CFC, and when, so we can try to arrange mutually beneficial trades that leave no-one with the short end of the stick. If we can strike some sort of traded tech sharing agreement with CFC, this may be OK. What does everyone think to the idea of agreeing with CFC to trade any tech and contact we get from GWT to the other team for something?

	10-09-2003 19:49									#90
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GWT is both stronger and weaker than CGN.

In actuality, they're about equal, but GWT has recently tipped the scales in their favor. They are a Republic. CGN is not. Their commerce is at about 200, while CGN's is only at around 110 or so. That's a pretty big advantage, especially since their military is not as big as our own.

They have the Pyramids, which gives them a much greater capacity for growth and population.

CGN is bigger because they've wiped out Grenouille entirely and absorbed their land, while GWT has not done the same with Firaxis - yet.

They're definitely both big and bad though. I wouldn't want to make bets on who would win a war between them.