19-09-2003 11:17									#121
	Remove this text

Keep in mind, the difference between the two in beaker cost is 96.

To be honest, I think we should let them stew.

	19-09-2003 11:41									#122
	Increase Your PM Length

I agree with nye here. If GWT wants to deal for Feud + 40 gold for Eng, then we have a deal. Otherwise we can do it ourselves.

GWT is more than likely going for Feud now. By the time they get it, we will have Monotheism from CFC and GWT will be one tech behind. Cuirous to note also is that they are not getting Feud from CGN. CGN likey is going the Eng route towards Military Tradition for their UU. So why doesn't GWT trade Eng to CGN? Maybe CGN doesn't have anything to offer for it. Maybe CGN is close to it. Maybe CGN already has it. Maybe CGN traded it to GWT. We can go on guessing like this for days.

It just best for us to make deals that are not lopsided. We can tell GWT that we already have a deal to aquire Mono from CFC so we see no need to trade Invention for it. It's possible they already know this from speaking to CFC, so they will know we are speaking the truth. Sometimes tech goals don't match up and each team has to do their own thing. Right now there are only so many paths to be on.

	19-09-2003 19:10									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Let's not write it all off yet, but 200 gold is excessive. We don't need the deal, but I still feel we should go through with it if they offer reasonable terms, for cooperation's sake at least. I agree it sounds good to let them know that what they ask is too much, and the extension is redundant to us, unless they offered some further incentive for us to follow their proposal for the later trade.

I take it that their latest message has said nothing about wanting to chat at any time.....?

It is possible their Foreign Affairs are not comfortable enough with English to go for a live chat session, hence all the delayed messages.

* MrWhereItsAt leaves the soup on "simmer"

	19-09-2003 23:31									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I agree, return to 40 gold + Feud for Eng. Don't give them 200 or the Mono-Inv deal just for cooperation's sake.

Also, I've read a lot of comments about "knowing" Webring from the PTWDG. But do we really? Just compare Poly's ISDG team and SPDG. There's a lot of the same participants, yes, but if you compare only the more active members of both DGs, I don't think there's a whole lot of overlap. A lot of people can only handle one DG at a time, and the active & voting membership of GWT may be quite different from that of ND in the PTWDG.

	20-09-2003 01:27									#125
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Another thing that we have no clue as to, is what kind of deals that GWT has already made with GCN? How freindly are they to each other? Is there a cold war going on between the two of them?

I would agree to a 10 turn NTA, but 20 is a bit too excessive. And not negotiating, in a faster fashion is also not conducive to getting the trade done.

Tell them that we have been very patient with them, and fortunately, that game has been going very slowly the last few weeks, but that we need to have a faster dialog if we are going to try to get this (or any future trades done) in a timely manner.

E_T

	21-09-2003 00:15									#126
	Tired of ads?

Did we go for the complete deal, or just the first part?

	21-09-2003 00:55									#127
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We did not do anything new, BFM. They accepted what we offered, Feudalism. The turn arrived and we had Engineering.

As far as I am concerned, that was the whole deal. Feudalism for Engineering.

	21-09-2003 01:29									#128
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Does this mean that we don't have to abide by the NTA?? If we do trade it, what kind of reprocussions is going to happen??

E_T

	21-09-2003 01:38									#129
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think the NTA would apply. We agreed to it.

	25-09-2003 11:21									#130
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

just got this from feanor:

quote: Hello Master Zen, seems you've been contacted by a nation called Netatolian. Let me know you, that at the moment they're "securing" our boarders while calling insistently for techs. We think they took Grenouilles that way and are trying the same again. But I think tey'll be surprised. We ultimated them yet to leave our claims. So it would not be beneficial to our relationship if you'd cooperate with a probable enemy of us. btw mono / inv was OK for you ? Cause you didn't reply to this. Mono would be made in little more than 20 turns when do you think is invention available. feanor0815 Webringen Ambassador

It seems that ****'s going to start on the continent pretty damn quick perhaps.

	25-09-2003 11:26									#131
	Got spare money?

I still don't know what to say about Mono / Inv. I had understood them to have accepted the agreement only because they also thought this deal was to be accepted also. Apparently most people here didn't think so.

We're in an interesting position. If we "aid" (by continuing to trade) with both of them, we will probably piss them off and if one of them wins they won't forget we also aided their enemy.

However, if we don't, they'll be pissed off because we didn't help any of them. Bascially that will force us to take sides in a clear cut way.

Unless... we make it very damn clear that we are not interested in their damn issues (ok, not entirely true) and are neutral. Now, remember also that GWT might well establish contact with GCA and if we piss them off might go so far as to aid GCA with techs to make our attack more difficult. Morally we have no counter to this as we would have aided CGN also.

I think we really need to chat with GWT and soon. I will try and talk ISDG stuff to them in our next GoW-ND chat.

	25-09-2003 11:27									#132
	Full PM-box? Change here!

As per the mono deal. I think we should talk with Octavian tomorrow and see what's the ETA for them on that tech. If they don't get it sooner we can get it from GWT and then trade it to CFC.

Frankly I don't mind in effect "gifting" the tech to CFC. I would mind straining relations with GWT over a tech which they might well provide sooner.

I am also dying to have a "history exchange" with them like we did with CGN. If my "bosses" (i.e. Togas and the consuls) agree to this, I would like to do so in said chat with ND.

	25-09-2003 12:23									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Boy, the language barrier is going to bite someone in our dealings with GWT. It's clear they expect the future trade, though it is equally clear to me that WE did not see it that way.

We will trade Invention to both CFC and GWT. The reason is this: GWT will research Chiv in 1/3 of the time that CFC will take. But the kicker is this, we tell GWT that we have a deal for Mono already with CFC and we are interested in trading Chiv for Invention. In fact, if CFC beats GWT to it, we gift it to GWT so that they can start researching Chiv ASAP. Invention's cost is 44 and Chiv's is 32. GWT will see this as a very favorable trade.

We also tell GWT that we are bound to give CFC Invention as well, but we won't explain why, just that we are 'bound' to do it. The way I figure it we will be 1/2 to 3/4's of the way to Gunpowder when GWT finishes Chiv. We will still have the tech advantage on them and could trade GunPowder for Theology+Gold. The only problem is what do we trade Invention to CGN for? Gold only? I think that is the only option until Theology is researched; then CGN can do Education while GWT is doing Print Press. Of course, GWT and CGN could be in a full state of war with each other at that time

	25-09-2003 12:47									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Chivalry for Invention sounds good, however, I doubt CFC will finish Mono before GWT. Considering the impending war getween GWT and CGN, I doubt they'd delay their research over this since they probably want Ansars and quick. However, it is a good point and I will bring up the issue to them if I get around to chatting with them

	25-09-2003 13:11									#135
	Got spare money?

I think CFC has a good chance at beating GWT to Mono. CFC started Mono at the same time we started Invention. I also think GWT was doing Feud when we made our deal giving them Feud; meaning they have just started on Mono. Also, GWT, considering the troubles they have had with CGN, may need gold to upgrade some units. CGN reported that GWT may have lacked Iron until recently; putting the possibility of upgrades from warrior to MI very high.

	25-09-2003 15:04									#136
	Get a bigger avatar today!

CFC started Mono when we started Eng, not Inv, so they're probably within 20 turns of it.

A big YES to more info from CFC on when they will get Mono.

As ever, a team puts their own spin on a conflict for their peers' consumption - no idea what the real situation is beyond there is conflict between the top 2 nations in the world at this time (arguably), that may lead to war.

One thing: we are now dealing with the big guys. CFC is bonded to us, GCA will hopefully be dead within 50 turns and otherwise it is just us left. We CAN help one nation over another, but we had better be sure we don't do it too much and that when the dust settles we chose either the winning side, or the side we picked against is very much weakened.

I say no absolute no-trade pacts. We may want to agree not to trade a certain tech for some time, but we can't limit ourselves from benefiting from EITHER civ. Let's keep things as simple as possible - if we are asked not to trade with the "enemy", we must explain that such an agreement is not in Poly's interest and respectfully decline, however we may want to take any offers from one team to the other - offering our favours for the highest price, so to speak.

Neither GWT nor CGN has a lot we want beyond Map and gold, but we can't rule out the possibility of either or both of them having things we want, and so I think we cannot agree to anything stronger than straight trades and NAPs.

	25-09-2003 17:06									#137
	Increase Your PM Length

Frankly, I'm more inclined to assist CGN after that email from the Webring. That's the first attempt to shove us in one direction or another that has happened on that continent, and I don't particularly care to be dictated to- I think a response which is part "We are neutral and aren't interested in your disputes" (A lie, but a defendable one) and a response which is part "Don't dictate our foreign policy to us lest you be the one left out of it" (though perhaps stated more politely) is the way to go here.

If we don't establish our space on the pavement now and let Webring know that we aren't anyone's lackey - which they may well think, given past score-related discussions with other teams on that continent - we could run into trouble later.

Besides... if I have to pick a side to help out and then face much later - ansars and EXP/REL or sipahi and SCI/IND, I know which one I'd prefer to deal with, and they're the ones that won't 'accidentally' misinterpret a treaty agreement due to language barriers.

	25-09-2003 19:45									#138
	Get a bigger avatar today!

One little thing you missed: when GWT has Ansars, they'll have a lot of trouble crossing the straight if they want to do us damage. On the other hand, by the time of Sipahis, CGN might well have Galleons...

Last edited by Master Zen on 25-09-2003 at 19:53

	25-09-2003 20:39									#139
	Put an end to popups!

Wow, looks like GWT isn't the best in Foriegn Affairs. It does look like they will be at war soon. In picking sides we have to be very careful. If we pick the weaker side to ally with we need to make sure GWT/CGN isn't to weak at the point. We want the person we aid to win and be quite weakened. If that's even possible.

	26-09-2003 02:05									#140
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt CFC started Mono when we started Eng, not Inv, so they're probably within 20 turns of it.

You are right that they did not start Mono when we started Invention. I'd say 24 turns judging by the turns that have passed sionce then. I'd also judge GWT to be ~less than 20, depending on how much gold they will want to have to upgrade Spears to Pikes and Warriors/Swords to MI's. This, in turn, depends on how relations are between GWT and CGN. Does GWT need to prep for war? I think so, just to be on the safe side. I have changed my mind about who I think will beat whom to Mono. I thnk GWT will beat CFC to it. But since CFC is going the 40 turn route, CFC loses nothing by continuing their research. It may be close, but I think GWT will get there first.

	26-09-2003 03:52									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

NEWSFLASH

Talking with Zayxus today about GoW-ND stuff I managed to sneak in a few words about the ISDG. They agreed to have a chat with us tomorrow at 2 PM EST.

I will meet them at the #GoW room and from there we'll set up a room so everyone can join.

	26-09-2003 12:13									#142
	Get a bigger avatar today!

This is welcome news. The tensions over there are already brewing.

My thoughts:

We tell GWT that we'd like to give them Invention for Monotheism, however, our neighbor and protectorate (we begin to sew the seeds of saying "this continent and all the nations on it are OURS") CFC has been working on Monotheism for some time and we had promised to trade with them for Eng when they got it. We cannot aquire Monotheism from two parties .... SO we would be happy to trade Invention for Chivalry.

We tell them that we cannot take sides in their conflict with CGN. We must remain neutral.

note: By saying this, we have no means to make GWT stay out of our war with GCA... perhaps we should discuss this further?

Once we trade WMs with CGN we should offer our WM to GWT for their WM + gold. We will let them know that we already have CGN's WM, and that our WM includes the WM of every nation in the world.

We should request that all future deals are done via written treaty so that there is no ambiguity or confusion about what is agreed to.

We definately should exchange histories.

--Togas

	26-09-2003 12:16									#143
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think we need to be very careful with GWT. They've clearly drawn the line in the sand saying "don't meddle in our continent's affairs" and when we go happily trading Republic and our map and such with CGN they're not likely going to be too pleased.

Not that I'm saying we shouldn't... it's simply a very tenuous situation, and implying the wrong thing might cause a lot of problems for us.

GWT can really screw us over by helping GCA with gold, techs and the like. If we do anything to antagonize them they'll be less likely to respect our wishes...

	26-09-2003 12:17									#144
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Agree to everything except saying CFC is a protectorate. They might well tell that to CFC and it's nothing they would want to hear. Our relationship with CFC is of course in essense that of a protectorate but they would be righfully feel insulted if they ever heard we speak of them that way.

Furthermore, by just saying we and CFC are friends, they will be even more baffled over why we do not go to go over whatever reason and especially since the 2 big civ sites are supposed to prove who's the best.

	26-09-2003 12:42									#145
	Full PM-box? Change here!

That's fine. Change it to "our neighbor and good friends CFC"

Doesn't demonstrate our command or authority over this continent, but it does show that we have some strong relationships and potential allies they shouldn't mess with.

--Togas

	26-09-2003 12:55									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I agree with the change that Togas suggests.

	26-09-2003 18:10									#147
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Stupid question: How are the Webringers to know that CGN got Republic from us, if we ask CGN as part of the deal not to talk about it? Maybe we gave CFC contact.....maybe they researched it on their own...

	26-09-2003 21:07									#148
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Togas That's fine. Change it to "our neighbor and good friends CFC" Doesn't demonstrate our command or authority over this continent, but it does show that we have some strong relationships and potential allies they shouldn't mess with. --Togas

I'd definitely change it too. Besides the reasons MZ talked about it also conveys a different thought than what was talked about in the "what do we tell the other continent about our war with CGA" part of the CGN thread. In that thread it was suggested to tell them GCA is good and we are taking a risk, etc. (which we are, but a necessary one ) which is quite a bit different than appearing strong and calling CFC a protectorate.

If we do want to go with appearing strong then I would suggest changing what we tell the other continent about our war.

	26-09-2003 21:09									#149
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen It seems that ****'s going to start on the continent pretty damn quick perhaps.

This is a good thing. In addition to the mutual cost involved to those two civs, it also guarantees no interference in our immediate plans.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt As ever, a team puts their own spin on a conflict for their peers' consumption ...

Really??? I find it hard that anyone would ever do this.

As to the GWT situation, it will be touchy. We need to be firm, yet flexible. They clearly want us to pick sides, and rom all the discussion in other threads and the poll on this matter, it is clear that we would rather keep our options open to be able to 'step in' as needed to re-balance any conflict. (note - step in does not necessarily imply overt military action).

And yes - the language issue may be a problem - given the nuances involved. Putting it in a letter may be the best approach.

"Dear GWT:

We want to be your friends, but we are a free and soverign nation that does not want to become embrolied in distant foreign affairs" kind of thing.

	26-09-2003 22:29									#150
	Inflate your Upload Space

Another thought here folks. GWT may be testing the waters to see what side we will come down on. Even if they are not doing it overtly, there may be merit it leading them on somewhat to believe we are in their camp. The reason I say this, is that we want them to feel 'secure' enough in their foreign relations to actually attack CGN. If they had a sense that we were going to fence sit, and possibly back CGN if they (Webring) get the upper hand, they may step back and revisit their game strategy - and just possibly consider an alliance with CGN for now.

In other words, anything we can do to 'encourage' hostilities on the other continent - we should do it. And if that means letting Webring think we are in their camp, so be it. Once the war gets underway, it won't matter much.