14-09-2003 06:17									#1
	Adam Smith's College Increase the size of your Attachments

Master Barclay should lead discussions of an economic nature here. The first post after this one should be for current plans and objectives. The players will look there for guidance, as well as in the turn threads.

If Master Barclay cannot participate in the turn threads, the first posts of this thread being up to date will be all that there is to guide the player(s).

	19-10-2003 00:36									#2
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Anybody up for researching Astronomy? Caravels would be awfully nice about now... and we will want something to trade with Lego.

	19-10-2003 00:39									#3
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Also, someone needs to take a close look at our current builds and workforce disposition, and we should consider when we want to cut iron again.

	25-11-2003 07:04									#4
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BUILDERS OF THE WORLD... UNITE!!

We need to seriously think about our build plans, especially on Stormia as regarding the Palace, the FP, and our ongoing guns vs. butter issues.

Further, assuming we are successful in hiring GoW and dismantling ND... we will have another half continent to develop!! Issues = CP, # of Workers, road network, corruption, Palace Jump... presumably concurrently with taking apart ND.

	27-11-2003 00:38									#5
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I'd consider building an FP in New Madrid. I think it has 4/12 production - rushing a marketplace and courthouse might get that to 8spt = FP in 25 turns, I think.

Arrian has presented a case against a PJ to Bob. We can't rely on a leader so the above looks the best bet to me.

Workers - we should perhaps look at setting up a worker pump or two, and see where to expect 'natural' worker builds in size 6 cities.

Corruption - can't help much here. If only someone could offer to read some alexman threads...

CP - What's this?

	27-11-2003 01:12									#6
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A new FP? So, close down Arashi?

CP = City Placement

	27-11-2003 01:43									#7
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Well, it's the fastest sure-way to get production on Bob, and Arashi would have to go. I never disbanded a Palace or FP city before - I'm assuming you get to be able to build another one. Confirmation, anyone?

We can't rely on GL or PJ, and a manual Palace would take forever, so if we're serious about production on Bob the only alternative is partial production with mkt/wltkd/ch improvements.
We just have to count the shields on the Palace prebuild to know when to disband Arashi.

	27-11-2003 02:50									#8
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That's what I thought you meant... just making sure.

	27-11-2003 03:21									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I'm assuming you get to be able to build another one. Confirmation, anyone?

Yes.

	27-11-2003 03:25									#10
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About city placement on Bob: It has quite some hills and mountains and thus, good productive potential. 2 or 3 of the cities there, in well protected places, should have the potential to grow above size 12. The others could be built more dense, to get the most out of the tiles until we have hospitals.

	27-11-2003 05:45									#11
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And perhaps we will do some...

Ralphing!

	29-11-2003 23:23									#12
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If we're looking to hold Spain - the FP in New Madrid could still apply. We could switch from it from pike to mkt/ch.

This all assumes that we are going to have our section of Spain ourselves, rather than RP. If Pamp falls, and we control their cities, their Palace goes to Stormia - which means they can start getting production from the region.

If Pamp were never to fall, it may be better for RP to control their cities, as they can build units there. If it does fall - perhaps better to PJ straight to Stormia and get on with the new role, than to New Madrid.

Basically our economic plans for the FP depend on our expectations from the war - which in turn depends on our new policy now the GoW deal is off.

Last edited by Cort Haus on 29-11-2003 at 23:31

	30-11-2003 02:56									#13
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City Placement

Fort Liberation could be founded in two turns (if Barca-66 is safe - can be checked from FL tile), and a city on the spice-ruins tile in three turns - if these can be defended. A city on the hill-ruins at Toledo 6999 can be reached by the settler on the galley in two turns.

	30-11-2003 04:51									#14
	Builds 370AD Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

These are the current builds.

(Assumes no Iron-cutting, and no panic-building for a coastguard. A quick coastguard build plan might be handy too)

Outlook : Keep knights, pikes and galleys coming, but develop key cities economically. Assign commerce cities - those with growth infrastructure in place, and get libs/mkt/unis and grow them up - partly by adding workers/settlers

Summary:

Military :
5 galleys, 2 east, 3 west
3 defenders
3 knights - possible 3 other cities on growth builds could switch to knights

Civil:
2 University
3 growth
2 anti-corruption
2 settler/worker


Eliopolis : doesn't look like there's going to be an FP here, so switch to lib to secure borders against RP and to access Eli-63, and adjust for +2F for growth towards 6. Or mkt - and ask RP not to build temple in HH
plan: WLTK

Inchon : Completes Spear in 370AD, uses hill vacated by Eliopolis for 3spt - start pike
plan : military defenders

Wind of Change : Galley in 3 turns. Can MM Inchoff's iron for one turn to reduce this to 2.
plan : galleys - east

Inchoff : Continue Courthouse (in 8t), then military - not a growth city yet.
plan : military - knights?

Dissidentville : pike
plan - defenders - might want temple in a while to get more land

Santa Ana : pike, move wf from SA-6 to SA-87
plan - defenders

Blizzard : galley, wf from Blizz-2 to Blizz-8
plan : galleys - east

Monsoon : Completes galley in 370AD
plan : galleys - west

Arashi : knights
plan : disband for FP move (New Madrid?)

Whilrlwind : galley
plan : galleys - west , but needs harbour soon to grow

Sandstorm : knight
plan : knights

Tempest : University

OG : galley
plan : galleys - west

EoTs : knight - we're not doing a palace jump now
plan: university?

Hurricane : University
plan: Copernicus?

Bolderburg : Has harbour & aqueduct - currently building granary but could switch to a mkt and use settler for size 9 - this would take a potential city site from Spain though. Another settler is coming from typhoon. could be knight
plan : commerce city

Cyclone : worker
plan : worker pump to fatten up commerce cities.

Tornado : harbor
plan : commerce city

Typhoon : settler, could be knight
plan : military? - limited growth potential, but has ch. maybe lib - or switch to Knights

Sufa : aqueduct, could be knight (chop coming)
plan - has harbour - commerce city

Last edited by Cort Haus on 30-11-2003 at 05:04

	02-12-2003 05:32									#15
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These are good plans... let me cross-check them when the save arrives.

	10-01-2004 06:29									#16
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Hiya, guys.

Am looking over the latest save (latest I think, 450AD).

Only one question, Typhoon is on a cat. It is an ideal city for mucho commerce from the sea. Looks like it can be ready to grow to 7 in 17 turns (or less). Coincidentally, it can complete an aquaduct in 18 and then a harbour in another 16 (less with rush). Then worker it up and rake in some cash.

Or was the plan to get Sufa set up first, and then Typhoon?

	10-01-2004 16:30									#17
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Yes, Typhoon is a potential commerce city but it's been sacrificed for the worker-pump to the north, and for setting up Sufa. Meanwhile, we need a few more units to replace the workers that are on the sea-wall, hence the cats. We need the worker pump to provide pop for the several cities now building aquas, and to keep pumpin' for steam (now not too far away).

	12-01-2004 00:28									#18
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Do we know who has and who is researching what techs?

If we are going into full-on builder mode, it would be useful to keep this information up-to-date and topped, as well as current trades.

	12-01-2004 06:36									#19
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I'm not sure who has what, but I know:

vox is going to get printing press in a couple turns (gifting to us immediately and they are trading to RP)

GoW has chemistry, i think, we were in talks to potentially trade for it for the bob cities....

Rp is researching banking I believe, currently at 40 turns?

Lego has Music theory

other than that....I might have some time tomorrow to run through the editor values and figure out what techs others have that we don't...

	12-01-2004 15:02									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

RP quoted around 20 turns for banking, and we have asked if it can be sped up. If not (they might have been going at 40 turns for a while), then perhaps we can ask for some gpt from them instead. If we have to wait 20 turns before banking, I fear that Lego will get Smith's.

GoW may have chemistry by now - they were closing in on it a few turns ago, and they also have astro.

	12-01-2004 22:09									#21
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From the PTW editor :

Banking : 52
Astronomy : 56
Chemistry : 60
Physics : 64
Metallurgy : 64
Magnetism : 68
Theory of Gravity : 68
Steam Power : 120
Industrialisation : 120
Medicine : 100
Electricity 140
Scientific Method : 100

	13-01-2004 09:44									#22
	Remove this text

Did some checking with 460AD. Both Banking and Music Theory are devalued by 20%. We can have Banking for 999 beakers out of 1248. We can have Music Theory for 768 out of 960 beakers.

At 48bpt, Printing Press is 18t, and Chemistry is 30t. Both prefect at the 24 beakers per basis point that we are at for this game. No one has them.

Is it 10% per other civ knowing, or 20%? IIRC it is 10% meaning that 2 other civs have Music Theory and Banking, but I could be wrong.

I would be more than happy to do Intelligence gathering when and as the players feel it would be helpful. If I am not paying attention just PM me.

	13-01-2004 10:21									#23
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how much do you multiply the editor value by? 24?

I can't recall if it was 10% or 20% either

And I thought GoW had chem, perhaps a bluff...

If they don't, they must have sunk more than I thought into pure military upgrades.

	13-01-2004 10:28									#24
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I believe the game with these settings is 24 beakers per basis point in the editor.

Yes, it seems as if GoW are selling something if they say they 'have' Chemistry. Maybe they are close to it though. A Mil Trad bee line for them seems to be all that makes sense if they wish to have a chance at a win.

For what it's worth, I spy a single SP in their grasp. On their island. Want to bet that island is walled off and safe till Marines?

	13-01-2004 14:33									#25
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GoW said they were close to Chemistry. That was at least 4 turns ago - so it depends on their definition of 'close'. With ND's luxury we can do it in 7 turns as is - droppingto 5/6 if someone gets there first. If GoW are researching it - are ND researching it too, or are they going for Banking to swap with GoW's Chemistry - though their future would have been uncertain at the time for such an arrangement to be made? I had blithely assumed that everone would have chem soon - or that Lego at least had it, but perhaps Lego has taken the Banking path, and has a prebuild for Smith's going for their GA. Smith's is the last Commercial Wonder until the UN. {edit : wrong, there's Magellan's too)

GoW's SP island would require 8 ships to blockade - probably difficult to maintain unless you're Lego.

	13-01-2004 17:39									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

nye, intelligence gathering will certainly be an asset to the team... I admire CH taking over the playing of turns, but we should try to alliviate as much as possible... it's a burden for sure.

it was 24 beakers, and the 10% or 20% changes depending on the amount of civs present. I thought that when all have a tech except you, its value is decreased to 50%. And, that the first team to have it takes off a bigger chunk then the rest of the teams. I don't remember the exact formula, though, maybe it can be found in the ISDG intelligence threads.

DeepO

	15-01-2004 18:05									#27
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Beaker counting each turn will be important now - we have to try and suss out who's done what and where they are heading.

The turn 162 thread has seen much discussion around forging a plan to go for Hoover Dam via ToE. It's only a chance, but perhaps the best quest we can aim at.

The basic plan is : assuming 5 luxuries and some gpt from RP, we'll hit the Industial era on turn 191 (29 from now) and get Sci Meth (passing on Industrialisation) on turn 222 (60 turns from now).

We made need Industrialisation for the Uni Suff shield-holder, though - but tech trade (probably not with Lego) might still be possible. Also, if we slowed down by not getting RP gpt, they may be able rush improvements and boost pop to research perhaps medicine for us - though this looks uncertain.

5 workers each six turns from Cyclone and Sandstorm will see us with 25-30 workers on reaching steam (assuming coal) which can in four turns fully RR two cities for wonders (prob EotS and Tempest, but possibly Hurricane). We'll also have pumped pop in 6 cities, giving us a dozen size 10-12 cities.

The fly in the ointment is Lego's GA - from either Smiths or Magellan - but if they find themselves busy pitting themselves against Bobian cavalry in some capacity, that's our chance.

	28-01-2004 04:50									#28
	Build Analysis on turn 167 - 520 AD Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

(copied from turn thread)

This analysis looks at 'efficiency' on build completion. Another consideration is speedy library builds, but this lot was enough work for the moment ... Presumably if we spend some of our newfound wealth on libs we shortrush to a knight or granary then build home from there to avoid losing shields by rushing to the end.


Eliopolis - Library - 15/80s. 65 remaining. 13 turns at 5spt = 65. Perfect

Inchon - Harbour - 15/80. 65 remaining. 22 turns at 3spt = 66. Maybe we should irrigate here to get it to size 6 then re-mine. (did this)

WoC - Courthouse - 15/80s. 65 remaining. 13 turns at 5spt = 65. Perfect

Inchoff - Aqua - 42/100s. 58 remaining. 12 turns at 5spt = 60. We need to speed the aqua by a turn for growth timing. Suggest shortrushing 3 shield from 57-60 vie granary in 3 turns time.

Dissville - Aqua - 64/100s, 36 remaining. 4 turns at 10spt = 40. Can short-rush 6 shields via Knight to save a turn (or a Lib next turn), but is it worth it?

Santa Ana - Aqua - 35/100. 65 remaining. 10 turns at 7spt = 70. Scheduled to lose 5s, so a possible candidate, if worth it. Currently well timed for growth.

Blizzard - Library - 0/80. 10 turns at 8spt = 80 but will grow in 2 turns.

Monsoon - Library - 16/80s, 64 remaining. Use mnt for 6 turns of 11. Fine.

Arashi - can't face counting on a Uni (3 turns) but we checked it before - it's spot on.

Whirlwind - Aquaduct - 4/100s. 4spt. Good candidate for galley disbands

OG - Aquaduct - 98/100. 2spt. Has given most shields to Tempest & BB (wonder cities) and is on food. Good galley candidate.

Tempest - Newtons (via Bank). 64/400s at 21 spt.

Hurricane - Copernicus (via Palace) 144/400s at 18spt but will have to drop when food runs out. This needs a special plan (see 510 AD thread). Maybe Arrian could look at it for us {edit - corrected from 154 to 144}

EotS - Bank - 36/160. 124s remaining. 7 turns at 18spt = 126. Fine.

Bolderberg - Magellans via Bank 10/400 @ 10spt

Tornado - Library - 22/80, 58 remain, 6 turns @ 10spt = 60. Fine

Typhoon - Aqua - 71/100, 29 remain, 5 turns @ 6spt = 30. Fine, and growth-timing is OK too.

Last edited by Cort Haus on 29-01-2004 at 05:26

	28-01-2004 04:56									#29
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oops wrong thread.

	28-01-2004 05:01									#30
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Good stuff, CH.