17-02-2004 05:14									#91
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Good call, DeepO. RR first and then mine over irrigation, yes?

	17-02-2004 05:16									#92
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Once we get or lose the wonders, we may want to mine all the tiles that can be spared from irrigation in preparations to mobilization. If we find the war is bigger and harder than we thought or spreads or we need to hold land.

Just something to bear in mind.

	17-02-2004 13:38									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Good call, DeepO. RR first and then mine over irrigation, yes?

Depends on our food surplus, and how badly we need the shields... in wonder cities, we might need to do mines first. But, with enough workers, this is no concern: if we RR, we have to make sure we finish as early as possible, by combining workers in task forces, instead of spreading them out.

DeepO

	17-02-2004 13:58									#94
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vmxa1, the classic "irrigate those shielded grassland tiles" huh? I think I remember who started that in the strat forum

But you're absolutely right what mobilization is concerned. It is something I never use in SP, but in this game, we might need it, and if we plan for it, we could use it to extreme effect. I wonder if the other teams are aware of its power...

Let's list the effects, to see where it can help
1. only available after Nationalism (Communism?) so we need that tech

2. can only be stopped by declaring peace, or destroying one of the teams we're at war with
It might be eplxoitive, but we've got RP to declare war and peace too at random. Otherwise Lego would be okay too: only mobilize if we think we can destroy them, or they are to be destroyed soon

3. every tile with shield gives one more, cfr GA
So if irrigation is needed, do it preferably on bonus grassland, not on plains or unshielded grass

4. cultural builds can continue, but can't be started during mobilization. They do not get the extra spt.
most of our cultural builds are already on the way... not a real problem here. It is not pleasant when conquering cities as we can't expand their borders culturally, but only a minor disadvantage in this war. Shortrushing these buildings is out of the question, though.

5. some buildings can be started (factories, harbors, barracks, courthouses?, wonders), but don't receive a bonus.

6. Only units are build faster.
So there is no need to mobilize before we're building a considerable force,in multiple cities.

7. I'm not certain of this (it used to be so in plain Civ3, not sure about PTW), but shields accumulated with unit prebuilds, could be transferred to e.g. factories.
More MM! We can get a limited GA going for our factories if we time it right, by building cavs and switching on the right moment.

8. I thought mobilization has an effect on WW, (i heard somewhere), but don't know for sure...

9. Mobilization can be spotted in foreign cities building units.

[Edit]
10. Mobilization reduces cultural output in half.
We're not going for a cultural win, and Lego won't be able to do it either... not really a problem.
[/edit]

Others?


That said, the moment we can, we should mobilize. This might come around the time we're building factories, otherwise when we're building our navy, and marine-defense. If other nations don't do it, it might give us an edge (surely if we have Hoover), leading eventually to a decent invasion force for Bob. I'd love to return, and give them hell

DeepO

Last edited by DeepO on 17-02-2004 at 15:20

	17-02-2004 14:42									#95
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Mobilisation reduces culture output was probably the other thing you were thinking of, DeepO.

	17-02-2004 15:23									#96
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added, Cort.

Do you know precisely when wer'd be able to mobilize? I forgot if it was nationalism or communism. If it is comm, we should not underestimate the strength of that tech: policestations are nice, but mobilization is far more effective, if we use it right.

DeepO

	17-02-2004 15:25									#97
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Nationalism's the tech. We'll be getting it from ND. Can we build Wonders OK during it?

	17-02-2004 15:32									#98
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Ah, that's nice..

wonders: I thought so, but it might be so that only certain wonders are possible. There used to be a thread about this in the strat forum, over a year or so ago. I'll try to find it. But things might have changed with PTW... we should not assume anything, and test it, but I think we're going to need mobilization if we want to keep competing in this game.

DeepO

	17-02-2004 15:35									#99
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erhm... either I'm an idiot, or the search engine is not working. Can't find any results with mobilisation or mobilization as search terms...

DeepO

	17-02-2004 15:53									#100
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From the 'Must read' threads, we have Fundamentals of Mobilization Revealed

	17-02-2004 16:10									#101
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We have to build Hoover in EotS, not Tempest, because our Palace prebuild will be taken by Arashi's ToE. There might be the Sistine to use, or there might not.

EotS has 48s, and needs another 752 for Hoov. 400s is the max it can do before Sci Meth on T199-T201, and it can get there in around 20 turns from T179, after it finishes the Cathedral.

If we have coal, it can get 25spt for another 16 turns to the Hoover Dam. Not ideal, but it's the best we can do, and should be enough if Lego are distracted, but not if they aren't.

We can't count on GoW getting Indust' for the Uni Suff prebuild in time - and they might complete that wonder themselves anyway. Lego will probably complete Smiths during their GA.

	17-02-2004 16:25									#102
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(We'll soon see whether Lego take Sistine or Smith in Legopolis.)

	17-02-2004 17:16									#103
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Thanks vulture...

main change to what I had written is that it isn't possible to start factories, and that naval transports do not get the bonus.

CH: EotS only at 25 spt after RR? I don't have a screenie, but that seems rather low?

DeepO

	17-02-2004 17:42									#104
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EotS : Maybe a little more with WF shuffling with other cities, but it uses floodplains and has no high ground.

If you want the save in future, Deepo, then PM vondrack.

	17-02-2004 19:15									#105
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no need for the save, I don't have the necessary patches installed... I avoided getting it from the start, and won't change that, I'm sorry. I wasn't looking for a screenshot either, I'm sorry if I sounded that way. It's just that at home I've got time enough to check it, at work I... well... should work

DeepO

	17-02-2004 23:04									#106
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i was just counting for EotS... it needs serious reworking (some of these improvements have to be redone afterwards, as other cities lend these, but I get to 34 spt with RR everywhere.

That is:
3 shields from the city tile
0 shields (but 5 food each) from 2 floodplains
16 shields from 4 mined, furred plains
12 shields from 4 mined, non-furred plains
3 shields from the mined, furred grass
2 shields from a mined, non-furred grass
-2 waste

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds to me as the city at 0 fpt... and I know it temporarily damages output of other cities, but it is the max we can get.

we won't have enough workers to do all improvements in one turn, but we might start early by already RRing irrigated plains, or leave have some specialists while we're waiting for SM. If we plan it right, the risk is very low that Lego will get Hoover if we build ToE: 12 turns after ToE, Hoover is ready. If nobody builds the GLib, it should be ours. Lego might be able to research electronics in 5 turns, but I highly doubt that they will be able to research atomics in 6 turns, and they need to gain both techs in 11 turns if they want to deny us the wonder. Don't forget that their GA will be over by then, they can go 100% research (as they likely have enough gold), but not more then that...

DeepO

	17-02-2004 23:58									#107
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Hey, that looks good, DeepO. I'll let Arrian cross-check the figures I'd been so locked into the micro-plans for each town's growth I forgot about wiping the slate clean and maxing out the capital.

The mass RR would start around Sci Meth - we'll have it on around 400s in the GLib at that point (unless Lego builds the GLib just to zap our prebuild). Though, with WF juggling we could prepare before - RRing the terrain but holding back some shields if too close.

Maybe if we snag these babies that we're after, we could produce some Wonder Poetry for the public forum .... make a change from the War Poems.

	18-02-2004 00:11									#108
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Macro-thought for the IA economy - Stock Exchanges, then Commercial Docks.

In SP, if we're fleecing the AI for silly GPT it's hardly worth building Banks, let alone Stock Exchanges. They'll be more valuable here.

Of course, we'll hopefully be building Infantry and Arty by the ton around that stage, but we could maybe earmark a dedicated coastal commerce city or two for cash-generation. Commercial Docks in these cities would be a good addition.

	18-02-2004 01:03									#109
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I thought so, CH... that you were focused on our current situation. I'm sure that once you were really plaing the turn, yuo would have found the same, though.

I have been checking if we steal a lot of tiles from other cities, and although I'm not sure how the tiles are divided now, I think the burden on other cities will be minimal. Hurricane might need to work more sea, but by that time that is no problem at all, as extra commerce means more beakers in our science city. The rest should be safe, I think, some changes might be needed, but we won't starve other cities because we max out our capital.

Some minor ideas though: we can't finish any of the science wonders earlier by letting other cities starve, can we? I was just thinking of Sistine: if that is a prebuild, it could be used for one of the science wonders we're hoping for. I would hate to lose one to Lego when we're so close...

and commercial docks: Hurricane simply needs one, and in general we should build it everywhere possible. We should see how much they will gain us, but I'm sure that in many cases, we should even rush these... if the return is 10 or 20 turns, this might be a superb way to spend gold on.

DeepO

	18-02-2004 01:13									#110
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mhhh... I just realized something... we might start pumping EotS' production earlier. That way, we maybe could get a CH in before the wonder prebuild, which woul;d be 'free' as it will generate one extra commerce I think. (and one more shield as well)

DeepO

	18-02-2004 03:05									#111
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I am not sure, but I think Docks have 3 maint, so you need to have 3 or more worked tiles to get a gain. I know I tend to build them if the city has 4 or more water tiles worked.

	18-02-2004 03:13									#112
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What we could do is make shield-metros inland, and let coastals concentrate on sea-tiles. They'd have few shields, but would power the commerce. Hurricane would be the exception - that wants to go metro.

	18-02-2004 03:22									#113
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euh, vmxa... you need more then 2 tiles you mean, provided a market and bank are present. The more the better, of course

I know, at 50% you only get 1 gpt per commerce with a bank, but even then it can be argued that more beakers also count. And seeing out map, all our coastal cities can use them. But of course they cost a lot to build.

When rushing, we should make he following balance: turns gained times gold + beakers gained as opposed to gold spend in the rush. Especially in very watery cities, it might turn out to be very effective to rush. Cities like Sufa can gain an extra 15-20 gpt with a dock, while it costs many turns to complete one... a rush could be regained there in minimal time.

DeepO

	18-02-2004 04:06									#114
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO euh, vmxa... you need more then 2 tiles you mean, provided a market and bank are present. The more the better, of course

No I meant that if it costs 3 for maint and yields 1 extra commerce per worked tile, you would need to have at least 3 worked tiles to break even.

Banks and markets have no effect on that consideration. You already have commerce from the coastal tiles and the multipliers are already in effect. Even if we could or do get a bonus on top of the Dock boost, if it is less than three tiles worked, it is a close call.

So do I have that wrong?

	18-02-2004 04:33									#115
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That's they way I decide on Comm-Docks - 3 sea tiles minimum. In our case, most coastal cities will be good for one.

	18-02-2004 04:42									#116
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It doesn't matter really, as all our coastal cities have more then 3 tiles worked, I think. So consider the following nit-picking

1 extra commerce means, at 100% tax with market and bank 2 extra gold (before corruption). or at 100% science 2 beakers with libs and unis. If we take, to make it easier in comparing, 1 gold = 1 beaker, that means that the cost of a dock (3 gpt) is offset with only 2 tiles. You can even have 25% corruption in that city... 3 tiles would give 3 more commerce, but 6 more gold.

But again, it doesn't matter, as we have loads of coast, and our cities all use more then 4 tiles. Purely commercially, it will be a good thing to build in all but the most corrupt cities. Sadly, it costs shields as well

DeepO

	18-02-2004 04:42									#117
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nice analysis

Here's a wacky idea.

Say the war with Lego goes well and their long term plans are disrupted.
Say that we actually got Democracy from Vox a turn or two before the war started.
Would it be worth a turn of anarchy to get the worker boost, and thus quicker rail production?

	18-02-2004 04:49									#118
	Increase the size of your Attachments

sleepy, the worker boost and fewer corruption would help... but we can't risk it before we build Hoover. The only way when we could risk it is if we knew Lego was so far behind that they would need at least 12 turns to get from SM to atomics.

BTW, does anyone know at what levels the palace builds holds 1000 shields instead of 700? Or is there a 800 palace as well? And... any guesses at how many cities Lego currently have? These are important as well: if Lego only has a 700 shield prebuild, we have at least 2 more turns: they need to build from 700(palace) to 800(Hoover) after having discovered Atom. At 33 shields, that is at least 2 turns, meaning that if they discover SM the turn we complete ToE, they have to discover electronics and atom in 9 turns to beat our GLib prebuild. No way... not even if they aren't at war.

DeepO

	18-02-2004 04:50									#119
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Oh damn... just noticed something: those 2 extra turns only hold if they haven't got a leader from fighting... otherwise they don't need a palace prebuild at all.

DeepO

	18-02-2004 05:34									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus What we could do is make shield-metros inland, and let coastals concentrate on sea-tiles. They'd have few shields, but would power the commerce. Hurricane would be the exception - that wants to go metro.

I like it.