18-02-2004 07:01									#121
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Nothing we can do about it if they come up with a leader, so just have to go on th ebasis it won't happen.

	18-02-2004 14:42									#122
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this night (!) I realised again it has been too long since I saw the tech tree... it's first atom. theory, and only afterwards electronics, right? I always mixed these up. Could someone please give the editor values for these techs, or how much they will still cost after we researched them?

Even with a leader, we've got a very good shot at getting Hoover, provided we don't trade Atom Theory away in the first 5 turns after we get it (this still assumes we get the ToE... which in itself means we must have coal to be sure, as it has to be build the exact same turn we discover SM). I'm not sure, but we're still first in beaker output, right? or would Lego have passed us if they wouldn't be in their GA? We should have a reasonable estimate of what bpt they can get at 100% after their GA is finished...

DeepO

	18-02-2004 14:55									#123
	Tech Prices Suffering from ads?

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=18997_techcost.jpg

	18-02-2004 14:55									#124
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GRRR!!!!! Why can't we display pictures anymore?

	18-02-2004 14:58									#125
	Remove this text

Anyway, Atomic Theory is a whopping 4800 beakers!

Also, the difference between Electronics and Rep Parts is about 1000 beakers. Added to this is the need for the Hoov itself as a shield-holder - and we have to take Electronics, not Rep Parts as the second ToE tech.

	18-02-2004 15:49									#126
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Thanks CH!

9120 * 80% (2nd researcher, right?) gives 7290 beakers, in 11 turns (with leader).

atom in 6 means 640 bpt
electron in 5 means 692 bpt

Hmmm... we currently estimate 480 bpt ourselves, right? at 70%, so 685 bpt at max... if Lego does better then us, they have a chance of finishing Hoover, even if we get ToE. But it will cost them dearly.

Conclusion is simple: every turn we can get off that ETA is one turn more security. We have a very good shot, but need extreme focus, and need to make sure we don't goof up.

DeepO

	18-02-2004 15:52									#127
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I think it devalues by 10% if researched once - from what I observed of the late MA beaker counts. That widens our margin.

	18-02-2004 16:04									#128
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It's worth mentioning that all this hinges on GoW having Medicine at the right time. We don't know yet how we're going to do this and there is a considerable amount of work ahead if we are to achieve it.

	18-02-2004 17:50									#129
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Indeed...

GoW and medicine: they have a lot of time before we need it. we can get to SM in 4 turns...

Something else I just realised: Lego doesn't need to wait 4 turns, they just need enough cash. They can steal Electronics from us... if they do that, there is no way we can avoid them having Hoover before us, so we can't take it into account when planning.

Planning: what patch is this save on? I might look into it, and come up with a plan for the next few turns, if I can play it without too many problems. It goes against what I wanted to do, but given our situation, it may be better if I take the save, instead of working from screenies...

DeepO

	18-02-2004 18:52									#130
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PTW 1.21f

The Espionage problem was discussed (somewhat despairingly on my part) recently. There doesn't seem to be much that can be done except hope that they don't research Espionage, or we get RNG lucky, and/orLego's production gets trashed or commerce diverted. Our build could get sabotaged as well through Espionage, ISTR someone said.

As for GoW and Medicine, we'll need it in about 15 turns. We need to know GoW's beaker capacity - eg 200bpt will do Med in 12 turns, but we need to get them ToG first, probably on credit, then they need to finish Mil Trad and save for the 200 they owe us, plus all their upgrades. Should be possible.

	18-02-2004 18:53									#131
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What am I saying? They don't need Espionage.

	18-02-2004 19:43									#132
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Well it depends they are highly unlikely to research espionage as it would be a serious diversion/expense of research turns.

Aslong as they don't have espionage we can block any stealing by declaring war on them. So all we really need is a reason to declare war on them hmmmn things falling nicely into place?

	18-02-2004 19:44									#133
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No, but it reduces the cost and improves the success chances, doesn't it - which makes the difference (in some cases) between it being worthwhile to steal tech and being better value to research it yourself.

	18-02-2004 21:31									#134
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I would think they would not go for espionage. If they do that, they have to build the IA, then buy a spy and get it planted.
Only then can they try to steal. So they need time and cash for that route.

	18-02-2004 21:50									#135
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can you plant spies when at war?

And, I know you need cash, but they might have more cash then beakers when their GA finishes... if no war has been declared, they will have several thousands of gold in their treasury. If we take ToE, they should realize it's the only way for them, and if they investigate EotS (easy, with that cash reserve), they can plan for it. The main attraction is that they don't need to wait, stealing is immediate (in SP at least)

CH, could you send me the save to steven.bex@chello.be ? Just this once, I don't want to receive it regularly. Thanks!

Medicine: if we want to get SM in 20 turns, 17 turns is the latest for GoW to finish it. as diplomacy is before the rest of the turn (I thought), we could set research to Medicine at 0%, accept the tech, change research to SM, and have ToE build 3 turns later. But that's way too risky, so in our contract with GoW we need to make absolutely sure they will provide it to us earlier then that! And with penalties as well: per turn later, they will pay us 2000 gold or something similar... no room for 'mistakes' on their part.

DeepO

	18-02-2004 21:59									#136
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This war looks more and more important from the PoV of our wonder-bagging aspirations.

	18-02-2004 22:10									#137
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It does... however we can't be 100% sure. For us, it is important that RP stays out of the war, as they are our wild card: we can e.g. pay them for investigations, or even sabotage of wonders.

But... Lego has the same options in Vox. Even if we're at war with Vox, they can investigate us, and can even steal techs. We would notice it, but can't help it. And we can't declare war to everyone, just to be sure we can't be spied upon...

DeepO

	19-02-2004 00:21									#138
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damn... I knew I had to recount. EotS is able to get to 35 spt before waste (if the city tile gives 2 shields with RR, instead of 3), and will get 2 waste at that stage. Which leads to 33 spt. This is just a bit too low for 12 turns from the GLib to Hoover, but if we have 4 food in the box and an extra mined plain we should be able to make up for the difference by running at 35 spt for 2 turns.

Note that this requires to have 399 shields in the GLib prebuild the turn ToE completes... for every 2 food more in the box, we can miss this mark by 2 shields.

DeepO

	23-02-2004 08:20									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus GRRR!!!!! Why can't we display pictures anymore?

need to use the image tags. [img.... /img

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=18997_techcost.jpg

Edit: Ohhhh, Marrrrkkkk.

	23-02-2004 20:10									#141
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Thanks for that post nye, I've been looking for something like that for PTW.

	23-02-2004 21:26									#142
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erhm... sleepy, that was CH's post of last week which nye tried to correct...

DeepO

	24-02-2004 00:50									#143
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO erhm... sleepy, that was CH's post of last week which nye tried to correct... DeepO

I refuse to give CH credit! refuse!

	12-03-2004 02:16									#144
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I'm going to copy the calculations from turn 185 in here:

quote: Originally posted by DeepO some calculations I need before playing the turn: at 70%, we currently make 526 bpt, 10 gpt at 80%, we currently make 601 bpt, -49 gpt. turn 186 we will discover Steam. we need 3360 beakers for electricity. 6 turns (currently 3 turns at 80%, 3 turns at 70%, leaving us 177g) [edit]correction, we will have 245g. Forgot the money we're making now. turn 192 we discover electricity. assuming we can trade for medicine before this point, we can start on SM, 2400 beakers. we are 19 gold short on achieving this in 4 turns at 80%, I'm confident that either by growing or by trade, we can get those 19 gold. 4 turns to SM. [edit]we don't need the extra money, we will have 49g in the kitty turn 196, we research SM Very important note: this assumes we have absolute certainty GoW is going to trade us Medicine before turn 192! We need to confirm this, it is way too important for us. They have to send it before turn 190 (to have 1 turn leeway), so please ambassadors, work with them and confirm it! For absolute certainty, we need to build the ToE the turn SM is discovered. So it has to be timed to complete on turn 196, 11 turns from now. Currently, there are 307 shields in the box, and we're going at 22spt -1fpt. This rate can be held for another 4 turns, at which stage we have to go to 21spt. (or have RRed some tiles, of course). we need 600 shields for the ToE, so at maximum rate without coal, we can build it in 14 turns (at 21 spt, 22 spt doesn't matter). With coal, we need to gain 58 shields in the 10 turns between coal and SM. With enough workers ready, we should be able to RR 6 tiles in the first turn of coal, so that we have enough. More workers only means more food in the box. EotS: currently we have 120 shields, and are running at 20 spt. in 12 turns, we can be at 320 shields... lower then the GLib. If nobody builds Sistine before turn 194, we can keep having that as a prebuild, meaning we can collect 399 shields by 194, or 32.3 spt for 8 turns. In theory, it can run at 33 spt without food deficit. So, the moment we can, we should start to RR it completely. In fact, it has higher priority then Arashi. Projected completion time of Hoover: turn 207, in 22 turns. (may become 206) Please RNG, give us coal. And please GoW, for once don't cross us! DeepO

	12-03-2004 02:24									#145
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and another dp.

Last edited by DeepO on 12-03-2004 at 03:06

	27-03-2004 19:21									#146
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long term economic plans:

turn 192: we get electricity. Assuming we have Medicine by that time, we start on SM

turn 196: we get SM, build the ToE and start on Hoover (should finish in 206)

BTW, Hoover is perfectly timed so far, if all goes well it will have 397 shields in turn 194, meaning that if Lego will switch to Sistine at that time, we can still recuperate without losing our prebuild (it will cost us one pop) If they switch on turn 195 and build in 196, we will have to switch our Sistine prebuild to a ToE prebuild, which will delay our plans by one turn but won't impact eta of Hoover. If they don't build Sistine, Hoover is build in 206.

After ToE, I propose that we rush to Industrialisation. It will be important to us to get our factories up fast. Either GoW can start on this after Med (which will take them some 7-8 turns if they hurry), and we do RP, or they do Sanition and we do Indus. We will burn ~540 gold doing it in 4 turns, or can do it in 4 turns gaining a bit of gold.

So, turn 201, we should have industrialisation (either researched ourselves, or by others).
That's 11 turns from now...

factories are 240 shields, banks are 160, unis 200. Further we have 4 prebuild possibilities: palace (700 shields), Hanging Gardens (300), GLib (400), Oracle (300). Sistine (600) might be open.

As of now (turn 190), we have the following completion times for unis (U), or banks (B) as prebuilds:

Eli : Aqua in 5. U in 21
Inchon : Aqua in 10. U or B not possible, Colloseum in 13
WoC : Iron Works in 28 (will drop to 14 next turn). No prebuild, factory will start after that.
Inchoff : market in 20. No U or B, C in 24.
Diss : uni in 11. Can be delayed by letting D-ville grow. Also possible to change to Harbor(4 turns remaining), and restart uni after that.

Santa Ana : market in 12. U in 26
Blizzard : market in 6. U in 16
Monsoon : Uni in 7. for eta of 11 turns, switch to larger prebuild necessary. making 11 spt currently, so it is worth it.

Arashi : ToE in 7 via Palace (needs one more RR for eta of 6. RR has to be done in less then 2 turns (preferably 2 turns, of course, to not waste a single shield) B in 6 after that.

WW : aqua in 12. U in 32
Tempest : bank in 2. Needs wonder prebuild, U already built.
SS: worker in 2(shows 3)
Hurricane : bank in 12. Will shorten, so either a wonder, or starting the factory later.
OG : uni in 29
EotS : Hoover Dam in 16 (via Sistine). prebuild not possible
BB : uni in 16
Cyclone: worker in 1
Tornado : Uni in 10
Typhoon : Harbor in 8. U in 25
Sufa : market in 17. U in 37.

Looking at this list, wonder prebuilds should go to Hurricane, Monsoon, D-ville and Tempest (after bank). I would switch to Unis whereever possible, with the exception of Elipolis, and possibly Inchon. WW is also possibly better of with an aqua first, but I doubt it.

Our first 2 factories would complete the turn we get Indus (if it comes in 11). That leaves 2 cities without factories in the long run: Cyclone and SS, our 2 worker pumps. That's an extra 54 gpt on upkeep, for an additional ~250 spt in our empire.

DeepO

	10-04-2004 23:42									#147
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screenshot with what I believe are all the positions on which forest has been cut before. Will try to update this as we forest-deforest more tiles for the 10 shield bonus.

In case somebody spots any tiles without a blue dot, which had forest before, please let me know!

[edit: I'm counting 64 tiles which still can receive the forest bonus, or 640 extra shields. Might be a bit off if I missed some tiles, but won't be much]

DeepO

Last edited by DeepO on 11-04-2004 at 13:00

	11-04-2004 01:10									#148
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Is the plan to build factories everywhere first (except the pumps) before anything else - once they become available.

	11-04-2004 01:17									#149
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More or less, yes. I'm planning on having factories up asap in all cities, except a few exceptions: WoC as it is better off with the Iron Works, Inchon as it needs food, EotS as it needs to complete Hoover asap.

There are 2 cities which I don't know yet: WW (as it only can make 5 or 7 shields, a factory would be very expensive), and Elipolis, as it might need a harbor first so it can use its plains for mining instead of growth.

DeepO

	11-04-2004 01:50									#150
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More on those factories. It currently is 800 AD, turn 195. we will discover Industrialisation in 860 AD, turn 201 (except if we get a discount on the tech cost as Lego already researched it in the mean time).

We currently have the following eta's for factories in our cities:

Eli : Uni prebuild in 50. Will change with RRing, and possibly needs a harbor beforehand, so not a lot we can say about this.
Inchon : Harbor in 7, factory afterwards... can be done in 40 turns. again not soon enough to be precise.

WoC : Iron Works in 13. Factory 7 turns later. ETA: turn 215 (for 300% shield production, being ~55 spt)

Inchoff : market in 28. if used as prebuild for factory, ETA factory currently at 74 turns. Will be speeded up by RR, but not by much.... perhaps better to not invest the shields in a factory, but go for commerce stuff instead.

Diss : GLib in 17. Factory in 8 (possibly 7). Turn 203
Santa Ana : Uni in 21, Factory in 27. Will be speeded up by RR and growth. So far, Turn 222
Blizzard : Uni in 11. Factory in 15. Will be speeded up by RR and growth. So far, turn 210
Monsoon : Uni in 1. Factory in 22. Will be speeded up by RRing, and getting shields from Arashi. Currently turn 217.

Arashi : ToE in 1 via Palace. Factory in 11. Can be speeded up by RR. Turn 206
WW : Uni in 27. Factory in 35. RR helps. Turn 230
Tempest : Oracle in 10. Factory in 7. Turn 202
SS: worker in 1. No factory
Hurricane : Hanging gardens in 12, Factory in 9 (can go to 8). Turn 203
OG : uni in 17, Factory in 22. Turn 217
EotS : Hoover Dam in 11(via Sistine). Factory in 18. Turn 213.

BB : uni in 8, Factory in 10. Turn 205
Cyclone: worker in 1, no factory
Tornado : Uni in 6, factory in 10 ( can be speeded up by borrowing shields from Sufa). turn 205
Typhoon : Uni in 12, factory in 15. turn 210
Sufa : Uni in 17, factory in 22. turn 217

In many of those cities, we need improvements other then hospitals, especially markets and happiness where needed (sometimes harbors as well). If we're going full out on war, we won't need any unis anymore, and we should be able to switch to mobilisation around turn 220. Very roughly, we're at 30-35 turns from having both marines and tanks, meaning somewhere around turn 225-230. We should be able to get a decent navy, and some defenders before that time.

DeepO