17-09-2003 17:35									#1
	Foreign Affairs : Cake or Death Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Contact has been made 2590bc

Anyone want to be their ambassador ?

We need a Roleplayer/Writer !!! Anyone who was complaining about us being boring & not fun would be perfect


I am more of a "Spite & Malice" type.
Perhaps let me loose after we kill their scout

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 17-09-2003 at 17:40

	17-09-2003 17:42									#2
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Sent to Frustrated Poet by PM

quote: Hello Human, Your scout has wandered into Monkey territory. But we are pleasently surprised that your tribe seems far more civilized than the local barbarians we have been fighting. We are hoping that perhaps you may have something to trade ? From our side, I see we can offer you nothing that you dont already have, however I can tell you we are well into the research of iron working. Could you please let us know what trades you may have available. And some information for you... we have had quite a few barbarian problems within the current area. (Many monkeys lost their lives after two supposidly "friendly" huts popped angry barbarians). Be very wary of the land east of the current mountain range. Not all of the barbarians have been "accounted" for. The current monkey you can see has survived two barbarian attacks already, and has only just finished healing. For the record, we have BW, Masonry & Alphabet. And are well into IW. And are happy to trade or continue to explore to meet other civilisations before trading. My Email is hot_enamel at optusnet.com.au But my timezone (Australia) usually means there is a 24hour turn-around of correspondence. PM's are sometimes answered quicker. Beta & Konquest are also available for contact. We are arranging a permanent ambassador for you and will send details soon. Regards P.S. Have a kiwi fruit we have been saving for a special occasion.

	17-09-2003 19:24									#3
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A quick Reply

quote: Greetings Monkeys, We too have encountered a few Barbarians near our lands, although thankfully they do not appear to be as severe as you have experienced. We would be very interested in arranging some form of trade. We have Pottery and Ceremonial Burial available. Perhaps we could work out a future trade for Iron Working? What is your ETA on finishing the research? Also, I feel the matter of future exploration should be dealt with. It seems logical that we either allow each other to wander wherever we choose (without violating any borders) or we both agree to keep at a distance from each other's territory. Do you have any preference? My email address is stuartgoodwin at fastmail dot fm - but I shall not be leading the team for much longer. We wil inform you as to who my replacement is in due time, until then please direct all communications to via e-mail or PM. Regards, FrustratedPoet the Executive Transvestite of Izzardia.

	17-09-2003 19:30									#4
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I told him we will get back to him.

Please lets discuss what we want...

	19-09-2003 22:46									#5
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I like the idea of respecting each others territory - ie - no exploration. We will be able to expand in a peaceful Simian way. A bit like GS in the first demo game. (until of course - Vox came their way.)

Also - with them having explores - they will be exploring much faster than we will. This nullifies somewhat the advantage of their civ trait.

We should try and get a border agreement, and land on the river we want staked out.

Other than that - they appear friendly - and not too advanced. We will have to be careful that the two of us do not get left out of the tech race by the continental civs.

	20-09-2003 01:51									#6
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I think we should claim all lands up to the river because this is as far as we've went...

We also should also try to get a deal regarding our tech path and future exchange...

--Kon--

	20-09-2003 17:31									#7
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The problem with claiming so much land, is that it upsets them when they realise that our capital is really quite far away.

Roleplay did the same thing against GoW.
"You are too close to our capital and must leave" when really their capital was 20+ tiles away"

I will ask about a no exploration.
Say no further south than the hill range.

And what about Tech ???
IW for Pottery & Ceremonial Burial ??
Tech cost 6 for 2 + 2
I think we need more than that
Plus ceremonial burial is really not needed so early in the game.

	20-09-2003 19:38									#8
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What about a 2 tile gap near the river...? We settle near the hill range and we don't get much closer. They do so on the other side of the river and everyone is happy!

Regarding trade, maybe something along the lines of IW for Pottery, CB and some gold? Or Pottery and the tech they are researching now..? I really don't know about this...

--Kon--

	20-09-2003 20:53									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 What about a 2 tile gap near the river...? We settle near the hill range and we don't get much closer. They do so on the other side of the river and everyone is happy!

I like this idea! We could get the good resource tiles on this side of the river.

	21-09-2003 07:39									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel The problem with claiming so much land, is that it upsets them when they realise that our capital is really quite far away. Roleplay did the same thing against GoW. "You are too close to our capital and must leave" when really their capital was 20+ tiles away" I will ask about a no exploration. Say no further south than the hill range. And what about Tech ??? IW for Pottery & Ceremonial Burial ?? Tech cost 6 for 2 + 2 I think we need more than that Plus ceremonial burial is really not needed so early in the game.

same wit lux.

	23-09-2003 01:11									#11
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I encourage a friendly relationship wit Team CoD. PTWII was supposed to be a relaxation game from PTW1 and ISDG and we need all the allies we can have to make this game as silly as possible.

CoD and we have a same goal in mind.

	24-09-2003 19:34									#12
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Finally a response

quote: Greetings and salutations to the Monkeys, As far as exploration goes, we would prefer that you didn't explore very far north as that is where are core is to be found. There is plenty of land to the west and south west you might want to explore, but I'd ask you to not go any further than 3 tiles due north of your current position just yet. I can tell you that we are researching Writing and will be done in 9 turns. I can also reveal that we have made contact with another Civ besides yourselves, although for the moment I'd prefer to keep their identity hidden pending negotiations. Basically the trade we propose is this... We give: Writing and Contact with CivX You give: Iron Working and 50 gold The no-resell clause you proposed for tech trades seems fair and reasonable. I eagerly await your reaction and very much hope we can establish a lasting friendship. Yours, FP the Executive Transvestite.

Just to clarify on the techs, I suggested that we always remain ownership of our respective techs.
They cant resell Iron Working. And we cant resell Writing

Iron Working = Tech cost 6
Writing = Tech cost 8
Pottery = Tech cost 2
Ceremonial Burial = Tech cost 2

Not sure if the 50g is worth the difference between Writing/Civ Contact & IW

I would rather get
Writing & Pottery for IW + gpt

We should be able to find other civs soon enough.


And re the exploration .. They cant go any further south than the hill range.
We cant go any further north.
I think we should just explore west anyway...so I have no problems with that.

No NAP or Border agreements.
I think this is wise...until we know where everyones capital is.


Any suggestions ???
Counter offers ?

	26-09-2003 02:51									#13
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I agree with that... I think we should explore west and then get the contact with another civ in a subsequent trade.

That is OK, we don't go north as long as you don't go south... I like that.

--Kon--

	06-10-2003 16:15									#14
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OK - Lets talk trade with COD here ...

I asked for a trade where we get Pottery & Writing for our Iron Working & ???
Thats 2+8 for 6+?
Its a deal stacked in our favour, but one they obviously dont care for.

They are yet to come back to me...that was a week ago.
I think participation is at a all time low.

So..
Shall we go back to the original offer ?
Writing & Contact for Iron Working & 50g
8+? for 6+50g

Or shall we discuss Pottery & Ceremonial Burial
2+2 for 6
Maybe Pottery, Ceremonial Burial & contact for IW

I really want pottery... we need a grainery.

Speak up.

	07-10-2003 05:37									#15
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I think you should insist a bit with the first deal, maybe they just haven't seen it the first time around. If we get a denial, then we proceed with the second...

What do you think?

--Kon--

	07-10-2003 16:55									#16
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Pottery. Then again - lets pop that hut as soon as we have settled - and lets see what we get.

Also - on the turn I played recently - I moved our northern warrior NW. It sounds as if H_E did the same. As a show of faith we may want to stop all further exploration in the north.

And btw - I agree on a peaceful approach to both our relations with CoD, and this game in general.

	08-10-2003 19:18									#17
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Ummm ... Bad News

quote: Hot_Enamel, Heya, just checking in to further discuss a tech trade between CoD and Monkey. I remember you guys were interested in Pottery. Well, we're happy to sell it to you. The thing is, I don't remember what the beaker cost is off the top of my head. I think we've agreed internally that 1/3 of the research cost is a reasonable price. How does that sound to you (and, while you're at it, do you happen to know how much that is? )? The other Civ we have contact is Monty Python by the way (on reflection we see no reason to keep it secret). They will be discovering IW next turn, and we've worked out a trade with them to swap Writing and IW, once we have Writing (5 turns). They have expressed an interest in buying contact with you from us when we complete the tech trade. Having 3 commercial civs on the same continent kinda screwed us for early trading (you are Carthage, right?), and it was unlucky that Python and Monkey both went for IW. That sucks, but we can get past it if we want to. I've been discussing long-term research with Python, and I'd like to do the same with you guys. I think it's in everyone's interest to get to Republic sooner rather than later. To that end, Python and CoD are considering researching Philo/CoL next. It's not definite yet, but it seems very likely. We'd like to get Monkey involved as well, since 3 heads will work better than two. The immediate problem is that you guys are a bit behind in tech. We can probably work out a fair deal to bring you up to speed, and enrich all 3 of us, if you're interested. What are your research options following IW, and have you guys discussed which direction you want to head? If CoD and Python go for the Philo/CoL thing, you guys could pick another route, and trade yourselves to parity relatively soon. What say you, Monkeys? -FP p.s. What's the deal on that deforestation policy of yours? I only ask because, as you may have noticed, there's a solid chunk of jungle between us...

	09-10-2003 19:06									#18
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Here is a draft response.
Kinda typed it quickly at work...
Please read and suggest some changes.
It probably has a lot of spelling errors and stuff

quote: Good Day to you FP, We are of course sorry to hear that you have chosen to purchase Iron Working from Monty Python. We will continue to finish Iron Working, and will then choose another tech that that best suits all three teams needs. Are you saying that there are only three teams on this continent? If so, then I think a long term tech research agreement is not only a wise suggestion but one that we would eagerly agree to. Especially if there are 4 civs working together on the other continent. One benefit of us all being commercial, is that we should have plenty of gold to speed up our research. We are of course, eager to hear what you have in mind to get us up to speed in tech. We are of little use in a tech alliance if we must continually use our gold to “purchase” tech from yourselves, rather than use it to study for the benefit of us all. You seem to have an idea, and we would certainly like to hear it. One suggestion that we have …. We have a pristine goodie hut waiting to be popped close to our capital. We decided that it might be a good idea to leave this peaceful village alone and introduce ourselves to them later, when the world is better known to us. As you know, it is sometime possible to learn wondrous things from these villagers. Upon hearing that we cannot trade Iron Working, many moneys have been screaming from the trees that we should pop the hut now. I have suggested to my fellow monkeys, that this unpopped hut could be a bargaining chip for us. We would be willing to offer the results of the hut to our tech allies & friends for free, if they are willing to help us get up to speed in tech. As partners, we could agree when to pop the hut…(perhaps when we meet the other four civs on the other continent?) Anyway, we eagerly await your ideas on how we best fit into your suggested long term tech alliance. We were planning on popping the hut the next turn, but I should not have a problem with delaying this decision. With regards to our next tech choice…. Some have argued for The Wheel, and others are suggestion we see what beaker heavy tech is available to us and using the 40 turn minimum science trick (If it is still available). If we are aligned, then I suggest we go the 40 turn option. If we can get Writing, then the obvious choice would be Map Making or Literature. And finally our deforestation policy Officially, limited cutting is fine, as long as re-forestation of selected tiles is considered in the future, and all indigenous simian species are given sufficient notivce to vacate. This policy was to be used as a basis of how our attitude will be to foreign civs. However, we will also be influenced by alliances, win-win trading and good friendship. If we can be brought up to tech speed, and agree to a long term tech alliance, then I foresee no problems with “granting” you permission to chop back some of our ancestry lands.

	10-10-2003 04:37									#19
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H_E. Good note. I would soften the start. What's done is done. Let's not get their backs up over it.

I agree with the approach. We may want to add that limited cutting is fine, as long as re-forestation of selected tiles is considered in the future, and all indigenous simian species are given sufficient notivce to vacate.

I am about to play the turn. Will not pop the hut until we hear back.

	10-10-2003 05:49									#20
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PM has been sent with Beta's suggestions included.

	10-10-2003 15:58									#21
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From FP

quote: Hot_Enamel, Thanks for your reply. I'll post it in our forum and get back to you ASAP. Just a couple of quick points, though: 1) Yes, to the best of knowledge there are only 3 Civs on this continent. The only part of it our scouts haven't explored is the terrain around your homeland and anything that maybe further than that which we can't reach. If you've found nothing else but coastline then the three of us are on our own. 2) Regarding the hut-popping idea. Intriguing ... I'll see what my team say. One thing worth mentioning is that since we are Expansionist we have no risk of popping Barbs from the hut if we do it ourselves. It might be something worth thinking about. You'll receive a more detailed reply in the next couple of days. Kind Regards, FP

I say dont pop the hut.
And we need a tech aliance if we want to keep up with the 4 civs on the other continent

	11-10-2003 05:07									#22
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From Arrian

quote: Hot_Enamel, Frustrated Poet will be out of contact for several days, and since I am often MIA on the weekends myself, I wanted to send you a more detailed response to your most recent PM to FP (enough abbrevations in there? No, hmm, I'll try harder ). We like the hut popping idea. It's unique, and therefore interesting. And we might get a pretty good tech out of it (or get nada, of course). Blessed be the RNG. Anyway, the proposal we've been discussing goes something like this: 1) We give you writing. You then research Literature or MM. I'm leaning toward Lit, but both are valueable. It would be best if this could be done in less than 40 turns. Obviously, if 100% research results in something like 36 turns, forget it. But FYI, Python and CoD plan to race flat-out for CoL & Philo*. 2) We would like to send our scout to pop the hut, but I'm not sure it should be done yet. If we do get tech, it would be the cheapest one we don't already have. I need to check on what that is. I *think* it might be Mysticism, in which case popping now is fine... we all need Myst to get to Polytheism and get out of this age. 3) Once you have Lit or MM, you can trade with Python and us for Philo/CoL. I'm not sure of the tech costs, exactly... if your tech is worth more than Philo, perhaps Python will throw in The Wheel. 4) There are a couple other techs besides pottery & writing we have that you don't (CB and WC, I think). I'm really not sure what to do there. Writing is the big key right now, because it opens up Lit & MM. What are your thoughts on a creative deal for CB, WC or both? I'm thinking really long-term here, but we sure could use some industrious assistance with, um, "beautifying" some jungle. Or would using Monkeys to cut down jungle be just too weird? * - Python is researching The Wheel now. Then Philo. The two add up to the cost of CoL (10), which we will research. All of this is supposed to be at max research, so we get to republic faster. We've got the best shot at it, being Commercial, so if we beeline, we ought to beat the rest of the world there by a decent margin. If there are 4 civs cooperating elsewhere, that could give us the edge we need to keep up. Let me (or FP, or both of us) know what you think. -Arrian

I think we need to grab this

	11-10-2003 06:09									#23
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ooh ahh oooh ahhh ahhha hhhhaaa ahhhhh.

I agree.

	11-10-2003 07:20									#24
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If they come pop the hut, we can say so much for keeping our territory kinda hidden. They'll know the exact location of our core along with some precious infos if we ever get on a war with them...

Something to think about

--Kon--

	11-10-2003 18:12									#25
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I agree about the map thing.

Thats why I am thinking that we pop the hut late.
When we all have galleys, and they can send a scout by sea.

OR.. we can all agree to trade maps, so there are no secrets between us.


Another point... I want to ask for pottery.
We need to be able to build something else other than barracks & military.

	12-10-2003 01:17									#26
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I'd like not to trade maps with anyone, of possible... We're in a strong defensive position and we will be even more if nobody knows about our territory. Just ask Beta on how we tried to guess at GS' territory /in the beginning/during the war. That caused part of our downfall...

	12-10-2003 06:15									#27
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Hmmm - Kon raises a good point. It would be nice if we did keep the territory to ourselves. If they find out we have the lion's share (to honour our fellow friends here on the savannah) of the continent, the peace and tech deal may be shaky.

I also agreethat we get pottery in a deal asap.

As to the hut - yes - it can wait for later. Or we pop it after we get pottery and take our chances.

But they did seem keen on the idea of them popping it...

	14-10-2003 16:04									#28
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OK - It seems that I misunderstood their intentions. I went the whole hog and asked for Pottery & Writing and IW (to save us 3 turns).
I thought alliance meant pooling resources...but they meant just co-ordination and trading of techs at fair prices.

They are not happy
But it's worked out OK.. I told them it was a simple misunderstanding.

Here is the latest offers

Pottery for 1/3 of its reseach cost (someone has to work out the gold equivalent)...We are not going to get any better offer .. I think we should take it. Graineries are very important.

Writing for Our Goodie hut & access through our territory by their scout...(Basically, this will mean giving our territory map). I have asked them to clarify if they will share whatever is popped from the hut.
We need to discuss this...I am thinking that we may be able to haggle a little bit, but really it is a huge gamble on their part....who knows what is in that hut..they may get nothing.

They said they would consider a world map trade later, but they value their map quite highly, as it has Python completely mapped out.

I think we should offer this...
Monkey gives Goodie Hut, scout access and world map.
COD gives Writing & world map.
Goodie hut contents are shared.
Once all three teams have shared world maps, we agree never to sell our map to any other team not from our continent.

And finally, I have requested access North. They were not supposed to stop our exploration and from reaching Python.

	14-10-2003 21:52									#29
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Wow - what a can of worms we have here.

I can't say I am too happy about the exploration and map thing. On the other hand, secrets breed mistrust, so maybe an open policy is good.

We do not have a lot of cash right now - so we may need to wait a turn or two to buy pottery.

Let's finish IW ourselves. My experience has been that although it is discounted, someone always comes back later and says 'heh, and remeber we got you IW earlier.'

So - writing for the hut. Sounds OK I guess. As long as results are shared. Or are they going to charge us for whatever tech they get, if they get one.

	15-10-2003 08:25									#30
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Forgot to mention...

I think Pottery will be offered this turn.

FP keeps telling me he will work out the cost and let me know...but hasnt yet.

It will be one third of its research cost. If anyone wants to work it out, then go for it.