21-01-2004 22:57									#151
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Excellent. Let's see what comes back. btw - do we know what they are researching next?

I was thinking we could do Polytheism.

	21-01-2004 23:03									#152
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Nix that. I noticed earlier where they said they are doing Poly and Python is doing Construction.

Maybe we continue with the cash route.

	21-01-2004 23:07									#153
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Looks like we wait until tomorrow for answer......

quote: Steve, I'll get back to you in a bit. Cort Haus is away until tomorrow, and I definitely want his input. -Rob

	27-01-2004 18:49									#154
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sent to Arrian:

Greetings Arrian.

My apologies for screwing up the map trade. I was waiting for the others to show up in our forum to OK the trade - they went awol for a couple of days - and then with the last save, I exited the trade screen intending to come back and reload it at the end of the turn and forgot. Sorry. We are up for the trade, so if you reload it, we will accept.

Also - I know conmcb is witing for a response on the tech trade issues. I know it is a bit of a mess - but coming up with a deal which gets us republic would be appreciated.

Cheers - hope you are enjoying this weather - if you live anywhere in the east. I'm in Toronto - and at home today.

....Beta the Lion-Tailed Macaque of Team Monkey.

	27-01-2004 20:19									#155
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His reply:

quote: RE: Monkey Map Trade Understood, Beta. I'll let Cort know (he's been playing the turns mostly) about the map trade. Sorry for taking so long about the tech trade issues. I was away this weekend and was pretty exhausted when I got back, and just didn't have the energy to deal with it (as you say, it's a mess). I'll get something to you guys soon. -Arrian

	28-01-2004 00:58									#156
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Thanks, I was just about to send the nudge PM after sleding with my kids today. (Im home because of the weather as well )

	29-01-2004 22:01									#157
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Latest from Arrian:

Get that Map as soon as possible, I see our relationship deteriorating rapidly after this.........

quote: To team Monkey, c/o con & Beta: We have discussed tech trading issues in our forum at length, and have a counteroffer for you. My apologies for taking so long, it's a combo of me being busy, tired, and of course the complexity of the issues at hand. As stated before, republic is a cost 28 tech. Map making is a cost 12 tech, and we already have it, via a hut we paid for with mysticism. However, getting MM from that hut was an unexpected SNAFU. Therefore, we have already agreed not to trade MM to Python, and we are willing to also subtract 1/2 the research cost of MM from republic (12/2 = 6. 28-6=22). That leaves 22 points of research. You have brought up the idea of owing us research points, to be made up in the future. The difference between the research cost of Monotheism & Engineering (both 36) and Feudalism (32) is 4 points. So if Monkey were to research one of the expensive ones while CoD did a cheap one, that would recoup 4 research points. 22-4 is 18. Projecting farther into the future seems to us to be foolish on our part. We are willing to trade you republic now for gold plus the promise of tech later, but are not willing to provide republic for nothing now and the promise of recouping 22 research points down the road. That's a long way down the road. 18 tech points at this level of play is 432 beakers. Let's round down a bit and say 400 gold. Republic for 400 gold, and the promise of 4 tech points in the future. That's our offer. What say you? You also requested trading rights for warrior code. I'm sorry, but we must decline. We still want to trade that to Python ourselves. -Arrian

	30-01-2004 03:45									#158
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We can use the same tactic...

We are discussing our options within our forum.
There is a wish that we become an effective partner in the tech alliance we all agreed to.
Having a tech partner keeping us in Despoticism is not the best use or our combined resources.
Haveing a tech partner pay 400g for republic so they cannot research is also not the best use of our combined resources.

We do not yet have a counter offer or an alternative solution. We are debating what should be done in our forum.



And the real stick if we wanted to use it...
The best way to hurt a Rexing Civ, is to start flexing some muscle, and planting cities right close to their border. It forces them to stop rexing and building military.

Will they attack us ? Not likely. With our Mercs and even a despotic GA, we would crush them.
But they will build up militarily anyway just for defense.

	30-01-2004 04:01									#159
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Jesus, H_E you must be sober, this is probably the most level headed diplomatic statement I have seen you say in a while?

What happened did the wife hide the bourban?

I agree, that pretty much sums up my feelings as well.

Might as well get a tad tougher. Because the last proposal got shot out of the water.

	30-01-2004 06:38									#160
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 What happened did the wife hide the bourban?

Good one con.

And H_E - I agree. Sorry - I posted similar thoughts in the moves thread before reading this.

And lets get some galleys heading west to see what we can see. We need new trading partners.

	30-01-2004 07:28									#161
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I should try and dig up that chat GoW had with GS before the war.

I was tanked, and Master Zen had just got back from from the nightclubs @ 4.00am.

Unorthodox was trying to negotiate a very important NAP with GS.

MZ & I also most blew the whole thing.

Anyway...as we all know, the NAP got signed but then became worthless pretty soon after when war broke out.



My drinking habits....
I go months without touching a drop.
Then do a binge for a weekend.

Nothing serious, but I get drunk fast because I so rarely touch it.
And when I drink...I seem to have opinions that need to be expressed.

	30-01-2004 17:37									#162
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You are frigging hilarious H_E

My drinking habits pretty much match yours. Marriage and kids put a damper on my budding alcoholism way back when.

The last time I actually got drunk, and I mean DRUNK nit just tipsy or feeling happy, I mean DRUNK was back in 1998.

I was doing the Reserve thing, just got done going thru a two week in the feild (bush) graded exercise, I was second in command (XO) had a lot of responsibility and stress, we kicked ass, and after we got back I got absoulutely tanked with the Cheifs (Senoir Enlisted) at a local "establishment".

Now Ill have a couple of beers or some shots of single malt scotch to get "happy" once in a while but no more benders for me. Ive always said marriage has ruined many a good man..

Ah well.

Now back on subject: You know Im sober, Ive been the moderate in this game and still I feel like telling CoD to shove it up there arse.

Actually the way I would like to put it is:

"We'll get back to you as soon as we have saved up 400 gold."

Thats the whole PM. And then just start building an army.

	31-01-2004 04:44									#163
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Sent to Cort Haus to try and save the map deal and get me out of hot water with con.

quote: Greetings Cort. I had apologized earlier to Arrian for messing up the proposed map trade that he put on the table. To get it done - I have sent you our territory map accepted. If you still want to do the trade - accept the deal and return your map accepted. This saves the back and forth. Trust all is well. Regards... Beta of Monkey

	04-02-2004 05:33									#164
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Hows this for a reply to Arrian?

Arrian,
We are really sorry you guys feel this way, we had the understanding that we were both cooperating in a tech agreement. This doesn't strike us as a fair way to pursue that agreement. Unfortunately we are going to have to turn you down and probably research Republic ourselves. With our race to research techs alongside you, you must at least suspect that we are very cash poor right now. 400 gold might as well be a million.

On another subject your spearman at 1, 1, 1 of silkfest is right were we want to move our Num Merc and settler next turn to build a town. We are also assuming this string of towns we have and you have along the "silk corridor" will eventually become our border by default. And I am just going to mention again I brought up border negotiations several turns ago before we got to this point. The site at 1, 1, 1 of silkfest is considered by us to be part of Monkey territory, please move your spearman north. You have a lot of nice ground to your west to settle, and as you can see from our map we are quite cramped down south. And this way we split the silk resources and have a nice straight border right along the silk. Good for your REX and our REX. Monkey feels this is the best way to establish our borders.

Sorry we couldn't do business this time, hopefully we can work togther again in the future.

Steve K

quote: Arrian wrote on Thursday, January 29th, 2004 11:47:58: To team Monkey, c/o con & Beta: We have discussed tech trading issues in our forum at length, and have a counteroffer for you. My apologies for taking so long, it's a combo of me being busy, tired, and of course the complexity of the issues at hand. As stated before, republic is a cost 28 tech. Map making is a cost 12 tech, and we already have it, via a hut we paid for with mysticism. However, getting MM from that hut was an unexpected SNAFU. Therefore, we have already agreed not to trade MM to Python, and we are willing to also subtract 1/2 the research cost of MM from republic (12/2 = 6. 28-6=22). That leaves 22 points of research. You have brought up the idea of owing us research points, to be made up in the future. The difference between the research cost of Monotheism & Engineering (both 36) and Feudalism (32) is 4 points. So if Monkey were to research one of the expensive ones while CoD did a cheap one, that would recoup 4 research points. 22-4 is 18. Projecting farther into the future seems to us to be foolish on our part. We are willing to trade you republic now for gold plus the promise of tech later, but are not willing to provide republic for nothing now and the promise of recouping 22 research points down the road. That's a long way down the road. 18 tech points at this level of play is 432 beakers. Let's round down a bit and say 400 gold. Republic for 400 gold, and the promise of 4 tech points in the future. That's our offer. What say you? You also requested trading rights for warrior code. I'm sorry, but we must decline. We still want to trade that to Python ourselves. -Arrian

	04-02-2004 05:56									#165
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Excellent

	04-02-2004 06:00									#166
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Check the Monty thread H_E

Im sending this one, I dont think Beta will have any issues.

	05-02-2004 00:25									#167
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I PM'ed this out pretty much verbatim this morning. (USA time)

	05-02-2004 00:59									#168
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Reply from Arrian:

quote: Fairness is in the eye of the beholder, my simian friend. You didn't find our offer fair. Fine. We didn't find your offer of "gift us republic and we'll pay you back at some unspecified later date" fair either, to say the least. As for the border agreement, well, border agreements are trickey things, as GS-Vox showed me. Based on your comments of what team Monkey believes is fair w/regard to borders, I expect we would have had serious difficulty reaching an agreement over the last several turns anyway. I don't expect you would have delayed your settler teams while we negotiated. IIRC, our spearman did move last turn (we played before I got your message) and SF111 is clear. Not that I can say I'm pleased with your city site's proximity to Silkfest. -Arrian

	05-02-2004 03:38									#169
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Can we send a quick note..

Would agreeing to a site that is not as close to Silkfest reduce the price Republic ? We will need a quick answer and a new price before our settler reaches it's site.


We could always put our cards on the table with a famous Beta **Public Announcement**
Send an email to CoD & Monty stating our intention to withdraw from the tech alliance. That CoD has treated its tech partners poorly, by keeping us cash poor and denying us access to republic. And that Monty join Monkey in a formal agreement to work together to catch up to CoD.

But do we trust Monty enough ?
CoD could just buy Monty off by giving them Republic.
Perhaps its not a good idea yet.
We really need to work on Monty and get an understanding of their true diplomatic relationship with CoD.

	05-02-2004 03:51									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Can we send a quick note.. Would agreeing to a site that is not as close to Silkfest reduce the price Republic ? We will need a quick answer and a new price before our settler reaches it's site.

Ok lets say the price comes down to 200 gold, do you have a private stash somewhere H_E? The problem is that the offer they made was borderline ridiculous at least in our eyes because we are so dam dirt poor. And CoD must now this, based on our inability to keep pace with them tech wise. And they have seen our core, Arrian is pretty dam good on planning a REX ala E_T and he will know we are sucking hind *** with no bonus squares to work.

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel We could always put our cards on the table with a famous Beta **Public Announcement** Send an email to CoD & Monty stating our intention to withdraw from the tech alliance. That CoD has treated its tech partners poorly, by keeping us cash poor and denying us access to republic. And that Monty join Monkey in a formal agreement to work together to catch up to CoD. But do we trust Monty enough ? CoD could just buy Monty off by giving them Republic. Perhaps its not a good idea yet. We really need to work on Monty and get an understanding of their true diplomatic relationship with CoD.

I dont think we can go there until we feel out Monty on this, I have my PM out to them and copied Sir Ralph, lets see what they say. IF there are interested in a Republic deal between the 2 of us, then maybe. If not then I think we can assume they are well in CoD's back pocket.

They are cooperating already on the development of the Silk coridor. I got a feeling they aren't going to want to screw up the relationship with CoD. But lets see what they say in the next PM.

Either way my guess is either we get to the next continent or possibly begin war preps. Im getting the feeling things are going to go sour after this.

	05-02-2004 23:03									#171
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OK guys save is here, what do you want me to do diplomatically?

	06-02-2004 09:43									#172
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Keep up with the PM's.

Just friendly chit chat...so that they feel they can still negotiate with us....congratulate them for almost claiming all the silks etc etc blah blah blah

Request that CoD remove all of their units North
Request that Monty do the same with their single warrior

	06-02-2004 19:07									#173
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Yes - keep the dialogue going as H_E has suggested. And gently - at first - ask them to pull their units out of Monkey territory. Our rexing and blitz city build in the north would seem to have attained the objectives we wanted. Now we need republic. Maybe we research it after HBR. That would be a drag - but there is no way we are paying 400 gold for it.

And - I think we should be getting friendlier with Python. We have a common interest.

	06-02-2004 19:16									#174
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Roger Ill get a quick PM off today.

Ill be gone this weekend BTW.

I maybe be able to login and check but it wont be much.

Duty calls time to play Navy again.

	25-02-2004 05:33									#175
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Sent to CoD.

I intentionally mentioned nothing about the war.
I will let you guys sort that out.

quote: Hey Arrian, As you know, Monkey is up for some very interesting times over the next few turns. Given our small membership, and lack of micromanagement expertise, I contacted Dominae to see if he would want to join our team as a "consultant" for the next few turns. Little did I know, that he did the same for CoD earlier in the game. Anyway. Dom said he would love the challenge as I presented it to him, but did say he knew of CoD's territory and general city location. I assume it was a while ago, because he did not seem to know that Monkey was your friendly neighbour and tech aliance partner from the south. Given that we have your map, and your city locations already, would you object to us having Dominae on our side for a few turns....just to make it interesting. Personally, I think it would be kinda cool. He is a mercenary for hire. Jumping to any team who needs him. But if you guys have any serious objections, (other than you just not wanting us to have an expert player on our team) then we of course understand. Waiting with anticipation....while tossing a great lump of week old monkey poo in your direction. Hot_Enamel

	25-02-2004 05:40									#176
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H_E

Did you send this to Cort Haus as well?

Arrian is on vacation this week.

You might want to forward to Cort Haus if you haven't already, we probably cant WAIT till next week for an answer

	25-02-2004 05:44									#177
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By the way do we want to do a war dispatch to CoD?

Maybe ask them what there stand is in this war?

Ask em if they want to help us out?

I dunno, Im reaching here.

What do you guys think?

	25-02-2004 05:51									#178
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Now back on subject: You know Im sober, Ive been the moderate in this game and still I feel like telling CoD to shove it up there arse. Actually the way I would like to put it is: "We'll get back to you as soon as we have saved up 400 gold." Thats the whole PM. And then just start building an army.

Remember this post from about a month ago?

I kind of wish we had followed the last statement now.........

What a bunch of backstabbing ****ers.

	25-02-2004 07:00									#179
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I will send it to Cort.

Let your literacy talents run wild con.
I dont really care what we send them.

We have told Python that we have no intention on offering CoD anything though. I would hate to do it to CoD, Python finding out, and then any chance of dealing with us is lost.

And then again, I'd hate to burn any bridges with CoD, just in case Python rejects our deal outright.

I suggest...say nothing.
That is sometimes just as frustrating.

	25-02-2004 07:42									#180
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Yes - the Neu D way.

And btw - in the Python thread - I mentioned sending something to Arrian - scratch that. I have my team members mixed up.