17-09-2003 18:18									#1
	Team Monkey Contact Thread Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Just received from Hot_Enamel

quote: Hello Human, Your scout has wandered into Monkey territory. But we are pleasently surprised that your tribe seems far more civilized than the local barbarians we have been fighting. We are hoping that perhaps you may have something to trade ? From our side, I see we can offer you nothing that you dont already have, however I can tell you we are well into the research of iron working. Could you please let us know what trades you may have available. And some information for you... we have had quite a few barbarian problems within the current area. (Many monkeys lost their lives after two supposidly "friendly" huts popped angry barbarians). Be very wary of the land east of the current mountain range. Not all of the barbarians have been "accounted" for. The current monkey you can see has survived two barbarian attacks already, and has only just finished healing. For the record, we have BW, Masonry & Alphabet. And are well into IW. And are happy to trade or continue to explore to meet other civilisations before trading. My Email is hot_enamel at optusnet.com.au But my timezone (Australia) usually means there is a 24hour turn-around of correspondence. PM's are sometimes answered quicker. Beta & Konquest are also available for contact. We are arranging a permanent ambassador for you and will send details soon. Regards

A few minutes later...

quote: Forgot 1 thing I have been chastised for not offering you a kiwi fruit. It's nice and juicy... Beta has been keeping it in his back pocket for a week now.

	17-09-2003 18:26									#2
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My reply:

quote: Greetings Monkeys, We too have encountered a few Barbarians near our lands, although thankfully they do not appear to be as severe as you have experienced. We would be very interested in arranging some form of trade. We have Pottery and Ceremonial Burial available. Perhaps we could work out a future trade for Iron Working? What is your ETA on finishing the research? Also, I feel the matter of future exploration should be dealt with. It seems logical that we either allow each other to wander wherever we choose (without violating any borders) or we both agree to keep at a distance from each other's territory. Do you have any preference? My email address is stuartgoodwin at fastmail dot fm - but I shall not be leading the team for much longer. We wil inform you as to who my replacement is in due time, until then please direct all communications to via e-mail or PM. Regards, FrustratedPoet the Executive Transvestite of Izzardia.

	17-09-2003 19:41									#3
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Reply just received from H_E.

quote: We are 16-17 turns from IW. I have posted the below in our forum, and will get back to you. Your scout is safe to move onto the eastern hill range for now. We need to discuss the exploration issue. Regs

	20-09-2003 03:48									#4
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BUMP!

	21-09-2003 21:12									#5
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quote: Good Day to you FrustratedPoet Executive Transvestite of Izzardia. You will notice that team monkey is the smallest. And our active members seem to have gone quiet all of a sudden. So please bear with us if it takes so long to reply. I would rather get some discussion in our forum on any deals before we come to any deals. Firstly... Exploration. Could you please go no futher South than the Southern Hill Range just south of you. Lets say, 2 tiles directly South of you current position. This land will be claimed by Team Monkey once settlers are generated. We guarantee that there are no goodie huts left in the area, so all your scout would be doing is spying on our land. We will also respect any areas that COD deems sensitive and will avoid any trespassing. The only condition, is that you do not stop us from contacting other teams. In this case, we request an approved route through your claimed territory. Cultural Borders will of course be respected. As to tech deals. We have no problems with discussing a Future Teach trade. Iron Working is hopefully a sought after Tech. Likewise, Pottery is also important. But we do believe it is possible that many teams would of chosen to study it because of its importance. We have little interest in Ceremonial Burial at this stage. It is certainly an tech we eventually need, but not one that we would eagerly offer IW for. Could you tell us what other techs you have available ? What are you studying ? And how far away are you. A simple Potter & Ceremonial Burial for Iron Working (4 vs 6) needs to be sweetened. We would like to deal for Pottery now for IW later. But what else can you offer ? Also... we would request one condition on the sale.. that all techs sold has a no-resell clause. ie we will not resell potter & CB & whatever. You will not re-sell IW. Given we are still early in the game with minimal contacts... this no-resell clause will remain in force until the next age. We eagerly await your response. Kind regards with a bunch of Grapes. Hot_Enamel of Team Monkey

	22-09-2003 18:36									#6
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We could throw in Warrior Code. Or we could tell them we will have writing soon, and offer a trade of Writing - IW.

-Arrian

	22-09-2003 19:20									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

As for the exploration limitations...

I don't like it.

But if they insist, we must insist they stop as well. They want us to stop after x number of tiles (however many tiles until the hill range they speak of), then we want them to stop after that many as well.

-Arrian

	22-09-2003 20:50									#8
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Having read it more carefully, here is what I'd propose:

They don't want us to prevent contact with other teams. Thus, they pretend that we must stop exploring after 2 moves to the south, whereas they insist upon the right of passage through our territory (well, I disagree with calling anything outside cultural borders one's territory, but that's another matter) to meet the Pythons.

No dice, as far as I'm concerned, but I think I have a solution. We're coming up on discovering Writing soon, probably around the same time they will have IW, no?

At that time we can trade them contact with Python.

I propose we write them and explain that there is 1 other civ on the continent, and that we do not wish to deny them contact, but if they are going to restrict our exploration, we will insist on the same - they stop 2 moves north. There is little possibility of them making contact in that case, since the other team is north of us.

In order to avoid denying them contact, we propose a trade of writing + contact with the other team for iron working + 50 gold.

There are a few things to consider, however:

1) what is Python researching, and are we going to try and trade writing to them as well?
2) is 50 gold a good sum to ask for?
3) Is writing for IW a fair straight trade? IIRC, Writing costs a bit more, but IW does let you see iron, which is crucial...

-Arrian

	24-09-2003 15:51									#9
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Negotiations sent to Hot_Enamel

quote: Greetings and salutations to the Monkeys, As far as exploration goes, we would prefer that you didn't explore very far north as that is where are core is to be found. There is plenty of land to the west and south west you might want to explore, but I'd ask you to not go any further than 3 tiles due north of your current position just yet. I can tell you that we are researching Writing and will be done in 9 turns. I can also reveal that we have made contact with another Civ besides yourselves, although for the moment I'd prefer to keep their identity hidden pending negotiations. Basically the trade we propose is this... We give: Writing and Contact with CivX You give: Iron Working and 50 gold The no-resell clause you proposed for tech trades seems fair and reasonable. I eagerly await your reaction and very much hope we can establish a lasting friendship. Yours, FP the Executive Transvestite.

	29-09-2003 17:55									#10
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Reply from H_E:

quote: Good Day to you CoD, After some discussion (And scratching and poo throwing), we are requesting that we structure the deal differently. Lets perhaps agree to two separate things. First ... Exploration. We agree not to explore any further North as you requested, and you do not explore any further south than the hill range. The only condition, is that this agreement does not stop us from meeting other civilisations. We guarantee that there is none where you are heading, and that all goodie huts have been removed. We would appreciate if you can ensure we do no pass through any of your territory, but still allow us fair passage to meet other teams. Secondly, the tech trade... We would certainly prefer to find someway to receive Pottery & Writing from you. Especially Pottery now. We obviously only have Iron Working to trade, so we will have to make up the difference from our end some other way. This can be in gold if you prefer (gpt), but we would prefer to owe you the beaker equivalent and make it up on the next trade. The additional Civ Contact is appreciated, but we acknowledge that with Pottery, we simply cannot afford to pay for it. As we discussed, all techs remain the property of the original team, and there is a No-Trade Agreement. ie we will never resell each other techs without permissison. We look forward to hearing any deal you may offer. We certainly believe that if you can find it in your generous heart to offer Pottery & IW, then we can expect a truely long lasting friendship between our two great civilisations. The debt will be repaid. Kind Regards with an extra juicy Kiwi Fruit Hot_Enamel of Team Monkey

	29-09-2003 18:31									#11
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Hmm.

I was thinking about this the other day... Python's warrior is looping around us anyway and will probably make contact on their own soon. We should have a look at the map and see if we will get writing before that or not.

If we are going to get writing first, then I suggest we sell contact with Monkey to Python for whatever we can get. Prior to that, we can work out a pottery deal with Monkey.

Writing is slightly more expensive than IW, yes? Given the strategic value of iron, however, I think it's fair to waive the difference. I'm fine with a IW for Writing trade, straight up.

Therefore, if they have any bit of cash, a pottery deal shouldn't be too hard. I'd suggest charging 1/3 of the cost of researching it. Here's my logic:

3 civs on the continent. In a perfect world, research funding would be equally distributed (each civ putting in 1/3). Obviously, we're not in a perfect world, but maybe we can establish a course of performance here. Anyway, they say they're poor, so I doubt we're likely to get much more than 1/3 pottery's cost anyway.

What do you think?

-Arrian

	29-09-2003 18:52									#12
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I was thinking about that exploration scenario myself too. The python warrior hasn't moved for a couple of turns, though. It's probably keeping an eye on our capital. If it starts moving south I think we should definitely take the money and run by selling our contact.

I'm not sure I really believe them when they say they're poor. They at least have a barb hut or two down there to pillage. I agree with you that 33% of research cost would be a good benchmark price to work from.

I agree with you about the IW/Writing trade and IMHO we should take the deal.

I don't have access to the game right now (and won't do for another 48 hours perhaps, which really sucks) and I don't know the Pottery beaker cost by heart. Do you happen to have that info to hand?

	29-09-2003 20:07									#13
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quote: The python warrior hasn't moved for a couple of turns, though. It's probably keeping an eye on our capital.

Really? That is, um, troubling. They could be pondering rushing us. Yikes. I hope I'm just being paranoid.

I don't know the beaker cost either. It *might* be buried somewhere in the GS forum... I'm going to have a look.

-Arrian

	08-10-2003 00:25									#14
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PROPOSED message to Monkey:

quote: Hot_Enamel, Heya, just checking in to further discuss a tech trade between CoD and Monkey. I remember you guys were interested in Pottery. Well, we're happy to sell it to you. The thing is, I don't remember what the beaker cost is off the top of my head. I think we've agreed internally that 1/3 of the research cost is a reasonable price. How does that sound to you (and, while you're at it, do you happen to know how much that is? )? With regard to Iron Working, well, remember that other team we mentioned? They (Monty Python, by the way) will be discovering IW next turn, and we've worked out a trade with them to swap Writing and IW, once we have Writing (5 turns). Having 3 commercial civs on the same continent kinda screwed us for early trading (you are Carthage, right?), and it was unlucky that Python and Monkey both went for IW. That sucks, but we can get past it if we want to. I've been discussing long-term research with Python, and I'd like to do the same with you guys. I think it's in everyone's interest to get to Republic sooner rather than later. To that end, Python and CoD are considering researching Philo/CoL next. It's not definite yet, but it seems like a solid possibility. I'd like to get Monkey involved as well. The immediate problem is that you guys are a bit behind in tech. So I want to work out a fair deal to get you even, and enrich all 3 of us. What are your research options following IW, and have you guys discussed which direction you want to head? If CoD and Python go for the Philo/CoL thing, you guys could pick another route, and trade yourselves to parity relatively soon. What say you, Monkeys? -Arrian p.s. What's the deal on that deforestation policy of yours? I only ask because, as you may have noticed, there's a solid chunk of jungle between us...

	08-10-2003 02:35									#15
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So, what do you guys think? How do we get team Monkey up to speed in techs without just giving stuff away?

I think we need to try and work out a way of giving them Writing now in exchange for future considerations. Writing allows them to research Map Making and Literature. Without it, they have to go for mathematics if they want to research a tech we don't already have. Not that I'd mind getting math, but literature & MM are more valueable right now.

-Arrian

	08-10-2003 02:57									#16
	Tired of ads?

This would take us on a policy of a 3 civ continent with trilateral tech progress. I'm all for it. No point in messing with Carthage. So I say Yes to this approach, and lets see how reasonable they seem.

As regard to the text, para 2 is the 'Dear John' part with the bad news - if they were hoping for the Iron-Writing deal. How about dropping the first sentence (which seems a shade defensive) and going straight for :

"The Monty Python team to our North has IW next turn, and we've worked out a deal ...etc "

The rest of the message should reassure them that they're not being cut out, and hints at the benefits of trilateral peace.

Triffic work again Arrian.

The remaining question is : can anyone trust a monkey?

	08-10-2003 03:01									#17
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They might have a luxury.

Do we need to see if they're positive about the principle of trilateral tech trades before discussing specifics? Their tone was not of that inclination - with the no resell clauses. This contrasts with the Pythons tone of looking at what 3 civs can do for each other.

	08-10-2003 03:33									#18
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Good point. I can rework it in a bit. Or would you like to?

-Arrian

	08-10-2003 03:55									#19
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You do this one, maybe I'll have a go another time.

The only other edit on the original that I'd suggest is para 4, final sentence. They might think it looks like they're in our plans, rather than us all finding a common plan. How about "We can probably work out out a fair deal to get you even ..."

	08-10-2003 13:55									#20
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I've made a few edits, based on what Cort Haus has said and my own preferences. No major changes. Bolded text indicates what I've altered.

quote: Hot_Enamel, Heya, just checking in to further discuss a tech trade between CoD and Monkey. I remember you guys were interested in Pottery. Well, we're happy to sell it to you. The thing is, I don't remember what the beaker cost is off the top of my head. I think we've agreed internally that 1/3 of the research cost is a reasonable price. How does that sound to you (and, while you're at it, do you happen to know how much that is? )? The other Civ we have contact is Monty Python by the way (on reflection we see no reason to keep it secret). They will be discovering IW next turn, and we've worked out a trade with them to swap Writing and IW, once we have Writing (5 turns). They have expressed an interest in buying contact with you from us when we complete the tech trade. Having 3 commercial civs on the same continent kinda screwed us for early trading (you are Carthage, right?), and it was unlucky that Python and Monkey both went for IW. That sucks, but we can get past it if we want to. I've been discussing long-term research with Python, and I'd like to do the same with you guys. I think it's in everyone's interest to get to Republic sooner rather than later. To that end, Python and CoD are considering researching Philo/CoL next. It's not definite yet, but it seems very likely. We'd like to get Monkey involved as well, since 3 heads will work better than two. The immediate problem is that you guys are a bit behind in tech. We can probably work out a fair deal to bring you up to speed, and enrich all 3 of us, if you're interested. What are your research options following IW, and have you guys discussed which direction you want to head? If CoD and Python go for the Philo/CoL thing, you guys could pick another route, and trade yourselves to parity relatively soon. What say you, Monkeys? -Arrian p.s. What's the deal on that deforestation policy of yours? I only ask because, as you may have noticed, there's a solid chunk of jungle between us...

I haven't added concrete proposals about a possible Writing trade (in fact we don't even mention Writing by name), pending further discussion. Making a deal "for future considerations" seems like a good idea. We could mention the possibility of them gifting us a luxury for 20 at some later stage - would that satisfy us as a fair exhange? Or perhaps we could ask for some gpt (either now or later)?

	08-10-2003 14:27									#21
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If we have IW in 5 turns, and contact sold to the Pythons, their Iron time will fall (you could even mention this to the Monkeys) - and their next research decision will come sooner.

They could be offered options for later payment for writing - either 20 turns of a lux or gold. Cash from barb farming would be preferable to GPT if we want them researching. Either way we'd be trusting them, but if they feel that we're cordial with Python, and maybe fear our 'cultural linkage', they might be less inclined to be thinking about pointed sticks.

Another way they could pay would be to send us an uber-worker or two. Either as a slave or under their control and our orders for xx turns for a full yield.

	08-10-2003 18:35									#22
	Got spare money?

FP's message is a good one. I say we send that and see what they say (or did you already send that?).

FP, why don't you send it, since you've been the one PMing Hot_Enamel in the past?

-Arrian

	08-10-2003 18:48									#23
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Ok I'll send it now.

/edit: sent.

	10-10-2003 13:34									#24
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reply from H_E:

quote: Good Day to you FP, We are of course sorry to hear that you have chosen to purchase Iron Working from Monty Python. We will continue to finish Iron Working, and will then choose another tech that that best suits all three teams needs. Are you saying that there are only three teams on this continent? If so, then I think a long term tech research agreement is not only a wise suggestion but one that we would eagerly agree to. Especially if there are 4 civs working together on the other continent. One benefit of us all being commercial, is that we should have plenty of gold to speed up our research. We are of course, eager to hear what you have in mind to get us up to speed in tech. We are of little use in a tech alliance if we must continually use our gold to “purchase” tech from yourselves, rather than use it to study for the benefit of us all. You seem to have an idea, and we would certainly like to hear it. One suggestion that we have …. We have a pristine goodie hut waiting to be popped close to our capital. We decided that it might be a good idea to leave this peaceful village alone and introduce ourselves to them later, when the world is better known to us. As you know, it is sometime possible to learn wondrous things from these villagers. Upon hearing that we cannot trade Iron Working, many moneys have been screaming from the trees that we should pop the hut now. I have suggested to my fellow monkeys, that this unpopped hut could be a bargaining chip for us. We would be willing to offer the results of the hut to our tech allies & friends for free, if they are willing to help us get up to speed in tech. As partners, we could agree when to pop the hut…(perhaps when we meet the other four civs on the other continent?) Anyway, we eagerly await your ideas on how we best fit into your suggested long term tech alliance. We were planning on popping the hut the next turn, but I should not have a problem with delaying this decision. With regards to our next tech choice…. Some have argued for The Wheel, and others are suggestion we see what beaker heavy tech is available to us and using the 40 turn minimum science trick (If it is still available). If we are aligned, then I suggest we go the 40 turn option. If we can get Writing, then the obvious choice would be Map Making or Literature. And finally our deforestation policy Officially, limited cutting is fine, as long as re-forestation of selected tiles is considered in the future, and all indigenous simian species are given sufficient notivce to vacate. This policy was to be used as a basis of how our attitude will be to foreign civs. However, we will also be influenced by alliances, win-win trading and good friendship. If we can be brought up to tech speed, and agree to a long term tech alliance, then I foresee no problems with “granting” you permission to chop back some of our ancestry lands. Regards, Hot_Enamel of Team Monkey PS: Pottery is the cheapest tech with a science cost of 2. Like you, I am a little lazy to work out the beaker cost. I will have a look tonight.

And my quick reply....

quote: Hot_Enamel, Thanks for your reply. I'll post it in our forum and get back to you ASAP. Just a couple of quick points, though: 1) Yes, to the best of knowledge there are only 3 Civs on this continent. The only part of it our scouts haven't explored is the terrain around your homeland and anything that maybe further than that which we can't reach. If you've found nothing else but coastline then the three of us are on our own. 2) Regarding the hut-popping idea. Intriguing ... I'll see what my team say. One thing worth mentioning is that since we are Expansionist we have no risk of popping Barbs from the hut if we do it ourselves. It might be something worth thinking about. You'll receive a more detailed reply in the next couple of days. Kind Regards, FP

	10-10-2003 17:07									#25
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This looks excellent. Good stuff, FP. Our two neighbours are into a tech-sharing arrangement and Monkey's tone sounds very reasonable this time.

They want us to go and pop a hut for them, and are agreeing to research mapmaking when we work out a deal for Writing. Sounds cool!

	10-10-2003 17:53									#26
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Hmm... popping it ourselves is DEFINITELY the way to go, if we can convince them. This is because they are behind in more than one way - they also lack Ceremonial Burial and Warrior Code. Even if we give them Writing, they might get CB or WC from the hut.

The problem, of course, is that they were very much against our exploration of their land.

A couple of things right off the bat:

1) We should tell them no-go on the wheel, since Python is researching that now.
2) I think we need to work out a way to get them writing, and get them to research either Lit or MM.
3) If they go with 40-turn research, we might want to try and get *some* gpt out of them.
4) If they go with 40-turn research, however, they may fall behind again, since Python and CoD appear to be set to race toward Republic.

Compensation for writing is the biggie here. As they pointed out, they will never catch up if they continually have to pay us for tech, instead of doing actual trades. Therefore, what I propose is this:

Monkey gets writing upon their completion of IW in exchange for free passage for our scout to go pop the goodie hut* This will gain us knowledge of their land, and coupled with our embassy, will give us a decent idea of what we're dealing with down there. If we do get a tech, we agree we will be willing to sell it to *both* other civs for no more than 1/4 of its research cost (whether that is in gold or in "credit" for beakers later).

Then, they see if they can research Lit or MM in significantly less than 40 turns. If yes, they do it. If no, they choose the more expensive tech and do it at 40 turns.

Remember that when we establish our embassy, we will see the contents of their treasury. So we will know how "poor" they really are, since we'll know their savings and the output of their capitol city.

* - I'm thinking that this should not be done for a while. If you get tech from a hut, you will get the cheapest tech you don't have yet (also has to be something you are not researching). In this case, I believe that would mean Mysticism (once we have the wheel, it might be HBR, I'm not sure). That's nice and all, but wouldn't we rather take a shot at getting something really juicy like Polytheism or Math? That one is certainly up for debate, though. Bear in mind that the hut could be empty, contain "maps" or give us 25 (or 50)gold, or even a conscript warrior

-Arrian

p.s. more thoughts later... this is trickey stuff.

	10-10-2003 18:16									#27
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Yes, offering them Writing in return for us popping the hut sounds better than waiting thousands of years for a possible 20 turn luxury gift, or taking gold that would better be put into research.

"Oops, sorry, Monkeys - bad driving, our scout didn't mean to veer onto that mountain over there. Too much wine."

It doesn't sound like they're on a river, which means they'll need a fair few pops working roads to get faster than 40 turns on MM. We could seriously consider a policy of Barbarian farming on our continent to raise our collective research effort - perhaps funding Monkey on a sub-40 turn MM program if their economy isn't up to it.

	10-10-2003 18:24									#28
	Put an end to popups!

If they agree, we should gift them Writing as soon as we've traded for IW, as their IW might be finished very soon after Python and CoD have it.

As you say, they don't want to start work on The Wheel.

	10-10-2003 19:34									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

reply from H_E:

quote: quote: 2) Regarding the hut-popping idea. Intriguing ... I'll see what my team say. One thing worth mentioning is that since we are Expansionist we have no risk of popping Barbs from the hut if we do it ourselves. It might be something worth thinking about. This is an excellent idea. I would have no problem selling this to the team if you can come up with a plan to get us up to speed in tech. Probably best done when we meet the other civs and see how far behind in tech we are.

Good progress so far.

	10-10-2003 19:37									#30
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IMPORTANT: I'm leaving work now and will be away from a PC all weekend. This means I won't really be able to draft up a full reponse to Monkey until probably Monday. It'd be nice if you guys could send one out before then, but don't sweat it if you can't.