10-10-2003 19:53									#31
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quote: We could seriously consider a policy of Barbarian farming on our continent to raise our collective research effort - perhaps funding Monkey on a sub-40 turn MM program if their economy isn't up to it.

That is interesting, since we have that southwestern pennisula that figures to remain uninhabited for some time.

quote: IMPORTANT: I'm leaving work now and will be away from a PC all weekend. This means I won't really be able to draft up a full reponse to Monkey until probably Monday. It'd be nice if you guys could send one out before then, but don't sweat it if you can't.

Gotcha. I'm sure one of us can handle it.

In fact, I think I'll draft one up now.

-Arrian

	10-10-2003 20:17									#32
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DRAFT message to Monkey:

quote: Hot_Enamel, Frustrated Poet will be out of contact for several days, and since I am often MIA on the weekends myself, I wanted to send you a more detailed response to your most recent PM to FP (enough abbrevations in there? No, hmm, I'll try harder ). We like the hut popping idea. It's unique, and therefore interesting. And we might get a pretty good tech out of it (or get nada, of course). Blessed be the RNG. Anyway, the proposal we've been discussing goes something like this: 1) We give you writing. You then research Literature or MM. I'm leaning toward Lit, but both are valueable. It would be best if this could be done in less than 40 turns. Obviously, if 100% research results in something like 36 turns, forget it. But FYI, Python and CoD plan to race flat-out for CoL & Philo*. 2) We would like to send our scout to pop the hut, but I'm not sure it should be done yet. If we do get tech, it would be the cheapest one we don't already have. I need to check on what that is. I *think* it might be Mysticism, in which case popping now is fine... we all need Myst to get to Poly and get out of this age. 3) Once you have Lit or MM, you can trade with Python and us for Philo/CoL. I'm not sure of the tech costs, exactly... if your tech is worth more than Philo, perhaps Python will throw in The Wheel. 4) There are a couple other techs besides pottery & writing (in a few turns, of course) we have that you don't (CB and WC, I think). I'm really not sure what to do there. Writing is the big key right now, because it opens up Lit & MM. Thoughts? I'm thinking really long-term here, but we sure could use some industrious assistance with, um, "beautifying" some jungle. Or would using Monkeys to [strikethrough]cut down[/strikethrough] beautify jungle just too weird? * - Python is researching The Wheel now. Then Philo. The two add up to the cost of CoL (10), which we will research. All of this is supposed to be at max research, so we get to republic faster. We've got the best shot at it, being Commercial, so if we beeline, we ought to beat the rest of the world there by a decent margin. If there are 4 civs cooperating elsewhere, that could give us the edge we need to keep up. -Arrian

What do you think of that?

	10-10-2003 20:40									#33
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Triffic, lets send that.

(is there a typo in point 4 last sentence - beautify / beautiful?)

	10-10-2003 22:19									#34
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Message sent:

quote: Hot_Enamel, Frustrated Poet will be out of contact for several days, and since I am often MIA on the weekends myself, I wanted to send you a more detailed response to your most recent PM to FP (enough abbrevations in there? No, hmm, I'll try harder ). We like the hut popping idea. It's unique, and therefore interesting. And we might get a pretty good tech out of it (or get nada, of course). Blessed be the RNG. Anyway, the proposal we've been discussing goes something like this: 1) We give you writing. You then research Literature or MM. I'm leaning toward Lit, but both are valueable. It would be best if this could be done in less than 40 turns. Obviously, if 100% research results in something like 36 turns, forget it. But FYI, Python and CoD plan to race flat-out for CoL & Philo*. 2) We would like to send our scout to pop the hut, but I'm not sure it should be done yet. If we do get tech, it would be the cheapest one we don't already have. I need to check on what that is. I *think* it might be Mysticism, in which case popping now is fine... we all need Myst to get to Polytheism and get out of this age. 3) Once you have Lit or MM, you can trade with Python and us for Philo/CoL. I'm not sure of the tech costs, exactly... if your tech is worth more than Philo, perhaps Python will throw in The Wheel. 4) There are a couple other techs besides pottery & writing we have that you don't (CB and WC, I think). I'm really not sure what to do there. Writing is the big key right now, because it opens up Lit & MM. What are your thoughts on a creative deal for CB, WC or both? I'm thinking really long-term here, but we sure could use some industrious assistance with, um, "beautifying" some jungle. Or would using Monkeys to cut down jungle be just too weird? * - Python is researching The Wheel now. Then Philo. The two add up to the cost of CoL (10), which we will research. All of this is supposed to be at max research, so we get to republic faster. We've got the best shot at it, being Commercial, so if we beeline, we ought to beat the rest of the world there by a decent margin. If there are 4 civs cooperating elsewhere, that could give us the edge we need to keep up. Let me (or FP, or both of us) know what you think. -Arrian

-Arrian

	13-10-2003 13:35									#36
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latest message from H_E:

quote: CC....FP, Just wanted to give you a quick update. The Team is pretty happy with your suggestion. We are quite certain that we want to join. But I think it wise to give you a heads up on some of the issues that are being discussed. Popping the hut at a time that best suits all three of us is fine. But there is some concern about letting one of your scouts through our territory to reach the hut. It will basically give you our map. Something that the Voxians ***errrr*** monkeys would rather not do. I have suggested a three way agreement to trade everyone’s map, or if you can drop the scout off by galley? This is being discussed. Also, we are pretty keen on getting pottery. We appreciate the current offer, but we would certainly like the opportunity to build something else other than barracks & military. If we cannot get pottery from you, some of the monkeys want to study it quickly for ourselves….or even pop the hut ourselves in the chance of getting it. These monkeys have been appropriately sanctioned, but can you please consider offering us pottery. Map Making vs Literacy. We currently prefer MM only because it will allow you to build a galley and ship a scout over below our capital. Plus it may allow early contact with the other teams. But this is not set in concrete, and we will probably be guided by you for our tech study options. We will of course, go flat out with our study, the 40 turn study option was only suggested if it was available to us. Another point… we are 3? Turns still from IW. Perhaps you can gift it now to us with writing, so we can immediately start researching that will help all three of us. As an alliance, Monkey is pouring money onto the jungle floor in studying a tech that is already available. Looking forward to hearing from you. If you can gift us IW, Pottery & Writing, Team Monkey will be forever gracious to you and consider you one of our greatest friends and allies. It will be a debt that we will repay. Jungle cutting is certainly one option, but please remember our team philosophy of anti-logging. (But I am sure something can be arranged)

	13-10-2003 13:39									#37
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I accept his point about it being a total waste for them to spend 3 turns researching a tech that our 'alliance' already knows. However, I feel that gifting them IW, Writing and Pottery might be going a little too far, especially if they expect us to only pop the hut via a Galley-Scout. Hmmm.....

Perhaps we should mention with Python the possibility of a full exhange of maps between the three civs upon the completion of MM? If this is agreed to then Monkey can have no objection to our Scout going over land to the hut. I'm not sure if it can hurt us. Python already know what most of our land looks like, and Monkey will have scouted out parts of our future empire before we have a chance to settle it.

	13-10-2003 18:48									#38
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They're pushing things. We're already being generous.

I'm actually kinda irritated by that last note. I thought it was understood that whatever map knowledge we picked up with the scout was part of the payment for writing.

They want us to give them writing, pottery and IW?!?! What are we, Santa Claus?

Pottery for 1/3 of its research cost (which I continue to forget to check). Writing for right-of-passage for our scout to pop the hut. IW... well, I think we'd have to ask Python if that's ok, since we got it from them.

* Arrian wanders off muttering about cheeky monkeys

	13-10-2003 18:55									#39
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The other thing they should understand is that we don't yet HAVE iron working. We will have it once we trade writing to Python. That deal will complete in what, 3 turns? So there isn't really any way we can help them out on that front (and that suits me just fine. I have a limited capacity for charity in a competitive environment).

-Arrian

	13-10-2003 19:20									#40
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DRAFT response to H_E:

quote: Hot_Enamel, I'd like to address the issues you raised in your last note. First, the issue of Iron Working. Please understand we don't have it yet (if we did, your research costs would have dropped), since we have to get writing first and trade it to Python. That will take 2 more turns. The deal will finalize on the 3rd turn, I believe, by which time you will have IW. Second, the issue of pottery. We've made an offer: pottery for 1/3 of its research cost. I do apologize for not converting that into a hard number, which I meant to do this weekend. I will do it tonight and get back to you. I do not think it will be a large number. Third, the issue of writing, our scout, and the hut. I was worried that the Monkeys would react this way. I must confess I am dismayed. I thought it was understood that, in exchange for the technology of writing, the Monkeys would allow our scout into your territory to pop the hut. I figured you would give us precise directions in order to cut down on any unecessary exploration, but I also figured you counted the "cost" of our scout's discoveries toward the cost of acquiring writing. I now recall your earlier reference to our scout as a "spy." That worries me greatly. If we are to cooperate, we must have a basic level of trust. I thought our offer of writing-for-the-hut was generous, and would engender some trust. Surely you don't fear attack? We're the English ffs, and you're Carthage. I'm not much for suicide. That being said, the idea of a map trade is one we're willing to consider. I'm sure you realize that any advantage CoD has from our scouting ability would be forfeitted by such a trade. We have complete map knowledge of Python's lands, our own, and everything else on the continent save a few tiles of hills in the jungle (soon to be rectified) and the area you have claimed for yourselves and have asked us not to explore. So it's not exactly an even trade, is it? It has never been our intention to try and squeeze every penny out of deals with our neighbors. In fact, I feel we've gone out of our way to avoid that. But there is a limit to our generosity. The last suggestion in your note: "If you can gift us IW, Pottery & Writing..." is simply beyond the pale. Put yourselves in our position for a moment and ask yourselves how you would react to such a request. We will discuss the map/exploration issue further. Pottery, as I said, is available for a relatively small amount of cash. I will come up with an exact number, and we will offer pottery to you next turn in-game (unaccepted, until we finalize the deal). IW I've explained. Writing is due in a couple turns (2?).

-Arrian

	13-10-2003 19:32									#41
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Excellent work Arrian, but I'd like to tone down the wording of the message to make it a touch less hostile. I agree with you that they are really pushing their luck, but as we've seen from the first demogame Hot_Enamel is a bit of a hot-head and I don't want to provoke him.

I've removed the "for fcuk's sake" abbreviation: swearing at them won't help.

I also suggest that instead of saying "we thought you would do this" we say "we're surprised by your reaction" or something similar. It seems like a better negotiating position to express shock at your perfectly reasonable proposal being rejected. If we say we expected them to make these demands then it means that we either thought the deal was weighted in our favour or that we think they're a bunch of dirty dealers - neither is good policy.

My edits are bolded. I also deleted a couple of things, but forgot to mark them with strikethrough tags - sorry about that. Feel free to offer any more comments or propose further changes.

quote: Hot_Enamel, I'd like to address the issues you raised in your last note. First, the issue of Iron Working. Please understand we don't have it yet (if we did, your research costs would have dropped), since we have to get writing first and trade it to Python. That will take 2 more turns. The deal will finalize on the 3rd turn, I believe, by which time you will have IW. Second, the issue of pottery. We've made an offer: pottery for 1/3 of its research cost. I do apologize for not converting that into a hard number, which I meant to do this weekend. I will do it tonight and get back to you. I do not think it will be a large number. Third, the issue of writing, our scout, and the hut. We weren't expecting you to react this way and I must confess I am dismayed. I thought it was understood that, in exchange for the technology of writing, the Monkeys would allow our scout into your territory to pop the hut. I figured you would give us precise directions in order to cut down on any unecessary exploration, but I also figured you counted the "cost" of our scout's discoveries toward the cost of acquiring writing. I now recall your earlier reference to our scout as a "spy." That worries me greatly. If we are to cooperate, we must be able to trust each other. I thought our offer of writing-for-the-hut was generous, and would engender some trust. Surely you don't fear attack? We're the English and you're Carthage. I'm not much for suicide. That being said, the idea of a straight map trade is one we're willing to consider. I'm sure you realize that any advantage CoD has from our scouting ability would be forfeitted by such a trade. We have map knowledge of Python's entire territory, our own, and everything else on the continent save a few tiles of hills in the jungle (soon to be rectified) and the area you have claimed for yourselves and have asked us not to explore. So it's not exactly an even trade, is it? It has never been our intention to try and squeeze every penny out of deals with our neighbors. In fact, I feel we've gone out of our way to avoid that. But there is a limit to our generosity. The last suggestion in your note: "If you can gift us IW, Pottery & Writing..." is going a little too far. Put yourselves in our position and ask yourselves how you would react to such a request. We will discuss the map/exploration issue further. Pottery, as I said, is available for a relatively small amount of cash. I will come up with an exact number, and we will offer pottery to you next turn in-game (unaccepted, until we finalize the deal). IW I've explained. Writing is due in a couple turns.

	13-10-2003 20:15									#42
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quote: I'd like to tone down the wording of the message to make it a touch less hostile.

Yeah, I know. No way was my draft ok to send. I needed to get it off my chest, though. The "ffs" wasn't meant to be at them, though... it was meant in the tone of "aw, comeon fellas, you know better than that"

Why the "most of" Python's lands change? Oh, that's right... I played the last turn... we can now see every tile of Python's land. I moved our scout such that the 2 tiles that were still in the black are now visable. Our scout ended up on a hill 66 of Camelot, IIRC, which should be fine by them, as next turn we're outta there.

The rest of your changes I'm fine with. Good work I figured you would be able to turn my draft into a respectable diplomatic missive.

-Arrian

	13-10-2003 20:17									#43
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quote: Why the "most of" Python's lands change? Oh, that's right... I played the last turn... we can now see every tile of Python's land.

Ah OK, I didn't realise that. Cool!

I'll change that sentence back again.

	13-10-2003 22:23									#44
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Ah yes, Monkeys demand that Cod surrender their *entire* trait advantage - gifting them our meagre tech lead and denying our scouts the freedom to operate on neutral terrority.

In return Monkeys will smile at CoD and say "excellent, you may pop one hut."

You're both right. (1) These people are dangerous and should not be provoked, and (2) They are phuquing wanchors.

Great draft, FP - even if we'd be entitled to say "excuse me, to which military defeat to these surrender terms refer?"

(typo edited)

Last edited by Cort Haus on 13-10-2003 at 22:50

	13-10-2003 22:58									#45
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quote: even if we'd be entitled to say "excuse me, to which military defeat to these surrender terms refer?"

-Arrian

	13-10-2003 23:43									#46
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Though we definitely want to stay diplomatic here, I think we're also running the risk of letting Monkey push us around. If that works for them, they will do it again.

-Arrian

	14-10-2003 02:28									#47
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1. They've had a clear and fair offer on a Pottery deal.

2. It's been clarified that they're not being held up for IW.

3. We've offered a very reasonable straight map swap - (presume terrain screenie?) conceding on the scouting bonus to pop the hut - which may get us nothing, but could be a good tech if we leave it a while.

It is in our interests for them to research Mapmaking, and thus for them to have Writing. We don't want to be pushed around by them, but we can afford a little generosity on the Writing deal - as long as we let them know it's generosity not intimidation involved.

	14-10-2003 13:55									#48
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I think I'll send this now, since it has approval from 3 of our 4 active members.

	14-10-2003 18:06									#49
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I figured out the research cost of pottery (on a standard map, Monarch level): 54 beakers.

Therefore, they can buy pottery from us for 18 gold.

We should send a follow-up message with that cost figure and with our request that it be Literature, not MM, that they research next.

-Arrian

	14-10-2003 18:42									#50
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reply just received from H_E

quote: Ooops... Ahhhh ...I think that we have misunderstood each other. But it's something that can be cleared up pretty easily. When you mentioned (or did we bring it up first) a tech alliance, we assumed you meant co-ordinating and gifting techs with little regard to beaker cost or who has rights to what. Basically pooling our resources in whatever fashion is needed to ensure all three teams benefit in shared research. But obviously, you are more inclined to just co-ordinate research and sell techs at agreed fair prices. This can be done too of course. I think that is what has caused the confusion....we acknowledge that our request required generosity from COD, and certainly understand your response given that pooling resources was not your intention. Please then accept this kiwi fruit that I have borrowed from Beta's personal supply as a peace offering that we can both return to the trading table as friends. Now that we understand your intention, I am sure we will be able to come to an easy arrangement of suitable compensation for your kind offers. We will continue to study IW until its completion. Pottery for 1/3 of its research cost is quite fair. I will present it to the team and encourage then to accept the offer. You are offering Writing for our goodie hut, and access through our territory. Given the nature of our lands, this is essentially giving you our territory map. So...Writing for goodie hut & territory map. We need to discuss this further... as it was always our intention that the goodie hut be popped by you, but its contents shared by all three teams. (Another misunderstanding by us that we were pooling resources). Can you please confirm if it was your intention to share its contents or to keep it for yourself. I will again explain this to the team. Like you, we understand the importance of territory knowledge. Much of our team did not like the idea of allowing your scout through, which is why I thought the galley option would be better....or an agreed map trade. (Who needs secrets when among friends). As we have a few turns yet, I will get back to you with the team response. Again, we apologise if we offended. It was a simple misunderstanding of where we were heading. Team Monkey knows that three teams working in an alliance is far more efficient than continued bartering over prices. However, your offers have certainly been fair, and we appreciate that. One final thing I would like to discuss is exploration. You will recall that we requested that you did not explore south, and we would follow your directions and not explore north. The only condition is that it would not hamper our efforts to meet other teams. Am I correct in assuming that Python is North ? If so, can I request that you suggest the best path to meet them. One that does not show too much of your claimed lands. It is information, that we obviously both hold very dear. Looking forward to future trading. Kind Regards Hot_Enamel of Team Monkey

	14-10-2003 18:45									#51
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suggested points of our response:

1) Trade Pottery for 18 gold.
2) Yes we plan to share the results of the hut with all 3 teams.
3) You'll receive (trade or gift??) the contact with Python as soon as we finish Writing (a couple of turns). There will be no need for you to actually bump into one of their units.

	14-10-2003 21:04									#52
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Well, that's looking a lot better then The last missive to them must have hit the spot, and the tone here is reconciliatory and reasonable - good work guys

As they'll be bumping into Python soon anyway, we might as well gift 'em contact with writing, I reckon, saying "here guys, this should bring your IW working forward if it's not aleady on 1 turn" just to keep the convivial atmosphere going.

	14-10-2003 22:27									#53
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Hmm.

1) 18 gold for Pottery.

2) Ummm.... I had *NOT* intended to share the hut with the other teams. I figured we would be willing to sell any tech we got at 1/3 research cost, as with pottery. But if the team would like to share with our friends, that's fine. It's just that... well... I'm up for trading things for below market value, but just giving them away rankles a bit.

3) Python has exploring warriors out, and may make contact themselves. We have discussed selling contact to Python should they not meet Monkey by the time we get writing. It does not appear that they will. Eventually they would meet up, but not for a tad longer.

Shall we give them permission to head north? Should we tie it to their acceptance of the writing deal? Or should we just push Python for a contact deal (the offer was 25gold for contact).

-Arrian

	15-10-2003 00:11									#54
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I was going to draft a response to H_E, but I think we need to decide for sure what we want to do with any tech we might get out of the hut.

Pros to giving it away: 1) gives other teams warm fuzzies when they think of us; and 2) it speeds up our collective tech pace. Things could get interesting if we 3 manage to blast our way into the industrial age whilst others are fighting each other.

Cons: 1) giving it away! We get no tangible compensation for writing other than map knowledge. Warm fuzzies in 2000bc might be nice, but will we really reap a reward in 500AD (date picked out of thin air)? And if so, will that reward be worth it? 2) We establish a course of performance whereby Monkey will expect to be given techs for next to nothing. Note that #2 *could* become a pro, if our relative research power changes in the future such that Monkey has a tech advantage over us, and they decide to return the favor.

-Arrian

	15-10-2003 03:07									#55
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Firstly, on the exploration and contact issue. If we're going to push for a map swap with Monkey then we may as well let them wander north for a bit. They'll get to see all our territory soon enough anyway.

On the tech issue I accept your points Arrian, but feel that the only way for our team to do well in this game is by full and open co-operation between the three Civs on this continent. We're sandwiched between two teams of talented players with playing far stronger Civs than us. If they wanted to team up and kill us (which might actually be in their best interests) then they could do so fairly easily and whenever they choose. I think the best way for us (and by that I mean CoD) to play this game is to be part of a three-team alliance.

Perhaps it is worth pushing for a knockdown sale price for any tech we get from the hut (bloody thing will probably be a conscript warrior anyway), rather than agreeing to a straight up gift. They must know they are still getting a good deal for the Writing swap and may decide to cave on this issue. Maybe not, but it is probably worth a try. This point should not be a deal-breaker on our part, though, IMHO.

It will also be worth pressing them to agree to a map trade now. That would at least remove the "+our territory map" clause from their negotiations over Writing and will strengthen our hand accordingly.

	15-10-2003 05:19									#56
	Put an end to popups!

I think we should try that immediate map trade, then use that info to assess their tech potential in the future, as well as getting that clause out from the Writing deal.

Can we also try them with the 1/3 market price of the maybe-tech first, but being prepared to be haggle down. It's worth playing down the likelyhood of getting a tech to them.

I also agree that our neigbours could rationally decide to share the continent amongst themselves at our expense, and that the three-way alliance is our best bet if the monkeys are prepared to participate on a fair footing.

	15-10-2003 18:59									#57
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We can't trade maps, in-game, until Mapmaking. The next tech for them to research is supposed to be Literature (Lit makes more sense if we're going to try and use our research power to just rip through the tech tree). Republic + Libraries + 3-way research = greased lightening.

I assume, however, since it hasn't been specifically outlawed, that the trading of screenshots is kosher. Should we ask? Or just do it? Also, if we're gonna do this, shouldn't we also gift the complete map (ours + Monkeys) to Python?

FP, I accept your points. So be it. We hope that our helpfulness prevents our destruction. I think we should try and get the 1/3 price condition, and stress that the odds of that being a factor are not high. We could get an empty hut, "maps," a conscript warrior, 25 gold, or (extremely unlikely) a settler.

-Arrian

	15-10-2003 20:05									#58
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Assuming screenies:

Would the Monkeys be assuming a no-resell on the map, hoping to sell it seperately to Python?

Perhaps the map thing should be an open three-wayer. All three civs trade terrain map screenshots.

	15-10-2003 20:11									#59
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They shouldn't be assuming any such thing. But we may have to clarify that, yeah.

A 3-way trade is fine by me, and it makes things easier.

Assuming, of course, that screenshots are ok. They were in PTWDemoI...

I think we might wanna ask. If the answer is "no" then we either have Monkey research MM now, or we have them do that next, and wait for a while to pop the hut.

-Arrian

	16-10-2003 02:46									#60
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What we could say to Monkey is "are you concerned about us seeing your land for security reasons, or map value reasons?".

If the former, it should not be hard to reassure them otherwise. We have inferior traits and no UU worth speaking of, against Numidean Mercs with industrious production power. Add to this our enacted policy of forging a peaceful, 3-way tech alliance, and there's a clear picture of no-threat whatsoever.

Their only realistic concern could be if they piss both CoD and Python off - and that's in their hands.

If it's map-value reasons then how do they think it compares to Writing? All we want is to let them have Writing without giving it away.