16-10-2003 17:57									#61
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From the Monkeys:

quote: Arrian, I sent the below message to FP. I am just cc'ing you to ensure your team have received it. Regards Hot_Enamel - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - FP, Just wanted to make sure you got this message, and everything is cool banana's at your end. I did not get a PM from you for a price on Pottery. I have never had to calculate this sort of thing before, but have come up with.... http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Ho...potterycost.jpg This pic is from the 4000bc save. At 2 beakers per turn, it would take 24 turns. That means Pottery costs 48 beakers. 1 beaker = 1 gold One third of the price is therefore 16g. Beta played the last save and did not say what he did with the pottery offer. We want pottery, but I think we are waiting on a final price from you. Regards Hot_Enamel of Team Monkey

	16-10-2003 17:59									#62
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Now that is odd (I cannot see the picture, but 2 beakers/turn for 24 turns does indeed equal 48).

I wonder why I got 18 turns @ 3/turn when I loaded up a game (monarch/standard)?

-Arrian

	16-10-2003 20:04									#63
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Message to H_E, his response, and another message back:

quote: Very strange, because just the other day I loaded up a new game with the settings I thought we were using in this one (standard map, monarch level), and found that pottery would take 18 turns to research at 3 beakers/turn, making it 54beakers total. It's not that big a deal, since we're talking about a difference of 2 gold here (16 or 18), but I'd kinda like to know why we got different results. Is this Demogame on Regent or something? -Arrian

...

quote: Arrian, Now that you mention it... I do recall that the first 4000bc save that went around got hit with the chieften bug. The game was restarted at monarch or regent I think. I have checked, and I only have the one 4000bc save. I dont know if its the good one or the bad one. Truth is, I have no idea how to calculate the beaker costs for tech. I have posted in our forum for someone/anyone to confirm my calc or tell me how to do it. But no-one has replied. If you think your calc is correct, we are happy to use yours. Like you said, it is only 2g. Regs

...

quote: For the sake of getting this done, I will ask that we send you pottery "accepted" next turn, and you send us back 17 gold (split the difference). I just can't be arsed to figure this out right now for 2g, you know? As for writing and the hut popping... well, as you may have noticed, we've posted a thread in the main forum asking about map trading rules for this game. But that discussion may take a while and we're a turn or two away from Writing. Let me ask you this: why is it that you guys are so reluctant to let us see (some of) your land? You seem to be open to the idea of a map trade, which would give us the same or more knowledge than our scout would, going to and from the hut. As for what we would do with a tech from the hut... well, we're still discussing that. It's all theoritical right now anyway, because for all we know the hut could give us nothing at all. -Arrian

	17-10-2003 03:58									#64
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Quick message to H_E:

quote: Heya, When I opened the 2190bc save, I noticed you guys had sent 25gold our way for pottery. Since I couldn't change the amount without cancelling the whole damn deal, I took it, and then sent back 8 gold "accepted." So that's 17 gold for pottery, as discussed in my last message. Writing is due next turn, so we really need to finalize our deal for that soon. -Arrian

	17-10-2003 06:17									#65
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I don't suppose there's anything we can do now except hope they chill out and be reasonable on the Writing deal.

They're trading a Maybe for a Certain. We're trading a Certain for a Maybe.

	17-10-2003 19:21									#66
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New messages back and forth:

First off, I got a quick message from H_E thanking me for sending the 8gold back to them on the pottery deal. Second...

quote: Splitting the difference will be fine. I too cannot be bothered working it out. Regarding letting your scout through... We are on a skinny peninsula. The hut is south of our capital. Letting you scout through will essentially let you see our entire territory map. If there was a shortcut or longcut around, there wouldn't be a problem. So basically thats the issue... we see the deal as : Hut & our territory map for Writing. When I first suggested it, I was still of the mind that we were "pooling" resources. ie you would share the contents with all three teams. So I guess thats why we need it clarified now. As to map trading in general... I have no problem with it. RP/GoW/ND all traded maps to ease tensions. But we have two Voxians in team Monkey, and I guess they prefer the GS/Vox way of not trading maps. I suggested map trades all around. I am not sure if I have convinced Beta & Konquest yet either. I like the idea, because it levels the playing field, and border agreements are far easier to negotiate. FP mentioned that CoD values their map higher because of the more exposed territory. But really, if we traded maps with Python first, then the only thing you would have was your own territory. I agree.. the writing deal needs to be resolved soon. we will have IW soon, and need to choose our next tech to study. And what about exploration ? I have requested access North. We only agreed to not go North if it did not stop us from meeting other teams. Keep me updated on the writing deal... Kind Regards Hot_Enamel of Team Monkey

And my response:

quote: We don't have a problem with you moving north... although it's sort of annoying that you're going to get to explore our part of the continent, yet you're making a big deal of letting our scout through. It's not like we're just trading exploration rights. You get writing too. As for the relative values of our maps, there is more to our continent than just what you've explored and what Python has explored. There is quite a bit of neutral territory out there that I really don't think anybody but us has seen. We're trying to work out a deal that gets you guys Writing, so that we (the three of us) can all team up on research, without compromising your ability to do research in the process (by selling Writing for gold). From where I'm sitting, territory map + hut for Writing doesn't seem unreasonable. All that aside, I think that my team is going to be fine with sharing our maps. We can't do that until Mapmaking, though. Sir Ralph (Python ambassador) and I agree that Literature is probably more valueable to our research alliance, but if the map issue is that important to you guys, then perhaps you should go for MM next, and we should trade our maps around ASAP. I do agree that it's easier to work out border agreements if you know the lay of the land. As for what to do if we get a tech from that hut, I haven't seen our forums yet (I'm writing this off the cuff on ~5hrs sleep, by the way. I watched the Yanks/Sox game last night and didn't hit the sack until 1am), but I do think we would wish to get *something* for it. As with Pottery, I'm not looking to make a killing on it. But the whole reason we're popping this hut is compensation for Writing. It's a gamble: we take the chance that we might get something good from the hut. Our odds aren't horrible, but they're not great either. -Arrian

	20-10-2003 18:30									#67
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New messages:

quote: Arrian, Im filling in for Hot_Enamel because he isn't feeling very well right now. Well we have done some talking on these subjects and we have FINALLY agreed that we will trade the Hut for writing right up front. If you guys get a tech out of the hut we can negotiate compensation for the new tech sometime in the future. So straight up deal. Hut (no strings attached) for writing. Im convinced this is best for all parties because while we then research Lit, that will all you or Monty to research the other half of the road to Republic (as we discussed previously) On your scout heading north. We have decided to change our position on that topic. Feel free to explore south and pop the hut. We would just like to explore north as you have indicated is OK with your nation. All we ask is that we stay out of each others culture footprints, which I believe you have either already mentioned or agrees to. In the future we would also like to eventually exchange maps when the map making tech becomes available. With that all being said we would like to cooperate on explorations. What I mean by that is give some kind of idea where you have been already and we can give you an idea where we have been. Then we both decide which way we are going to go together and make sure to try and not cross paths.That way we aren't duplicating effort once we can exchange maps. Im on USA time, so as soon as you can consult with your folks and get back to me Ill post it in our forum. Good working with you and we look forward to lots of mutually beneficial cooperation in the future. conmcb25 (Steve K)

And my response:

quote: Wish H_E a speedy recovery for me. Thanks for your message. It sounds like a plan to me. Your exploring warrior can go north, and our scout will proceed southward. Staying out of cultural borders sounds good to us. Writing, which is due this turn (unless FP already played it... this is the first time I've been on 'poly since friday), will be sent to you. Then I take it that you intend to research Literature? Excellent. With libraries and republic our research should really take off. I'm glad we worked this out. -Arrian

	20-10-2003 18:41									#68
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OK that sounds good. I won't have sent them Writing on that last turn I played, but you can send it tonight Arrian.

Regarding exploration: there's really nothing out there for them to explore. We can tell them that we've uncovered everything to the north, west, and east of our continent. The south-western arm of the continent has been entirely mapped by us. The only parts we haven't seen are through the lands they had previously been restriciting our access too. In fact we can tell them not to bother exploring anywhere north of their start position as we've got it all covered already. Their scouting warriors may as well turn back and go home or head north in the hope of finding Python - they'll get no benefit from simply pushing back the FOW.

	20-10-2003 19:19									#69
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What they're really after is contact with Python. Which is fine - we agreed not to hinder that.

In the meantime, however, I think I will send a PM to Sir Ralph asking if they want to make some sort of deal for contact *now*

-Arrian

	20-10-2003 20:33									#70
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Now that we've struck a cordial deal with the Monkeys, (well done, btw ) do we have thoughts about future barbarian farming?

Our immediate plan is to expand a bit, but could we politely enquire as to Monkey's research potential, suggesting that if they're not on a river with a reasonable pop they might want to think about raising some revenue?

Of course we wouldn't be averse to a regular barbarian income ourselves come the time when some debarbing squads could be assembled...

	20-10-2003 22:32									#71
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We're going to be getting a look at Monkey's land soon. Our scout has permission to proceed south and pop that goodie hut. In the process, we ought to be able to get a decent idea of their situation.

As for barbs... well, we might consider punching out a regular archer in Swindon after it finishes the warrior it's building now. The worker team that is working its way towards Swindon ought to boost that town's production by a fair amount once it mines a couple of tiles. That archer could be sent down the mountains to the SW, hunting barbs.

-Arrian

	21-10-2003 18:01									#72
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New messages back and forth:

quote: Great, Thanks Arrian. A couple of things: 1. SCOUT DIRECTIONS: Your scout should proceed south until he hits our city territory. Then turn east until he hits the sea. Then go south again and as he gets closer we will guide him to the hut. 2. Our RESEARCH: We will definately research Lit next. 3. COOPERATIVE EXPLORING: We would like to discuss possibly doing cooperative exploring. So when we can tarde maps we haven't spent a lot of time exploring the same territory. Our units are approaching the mountain range. Is there anyway we should go that you have not been yet? This is just a thought so we dont both do the same work and will make maps trading more effective down the raod. Please let us now your thought on this? Good working with you and thanks again. We will let you know if the writing trade worked or not. Im a newbie to CIV 3 multiplayer as well so you are in good company!

My reply:

quote: The only part of the continent we haven't explored is your area. The scout is on his way back to the hills where you guys had him stop before... it will take him a turn or two just to get there, because he was up in the jungle. Thanks for the directions. You may notice that we've established an embassy in Primate Central, by the way. I would suggest you head north until you see our borders, then cut west and north again. -Arrian

	21-10-2003 18:21									#73
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Cool, send em up to Pythonia and away from the far west.

	21-10-2003 19:16									#74
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Received from Monkey:

quote: Arrian' Ok I understand on the exploring, if we need any more directions we will get ahold of you. I think our issues are decided right now but if something else comes up get ahold of me or Ill get ahold of you. And if H_E gets off the sick list we will let you know. Thanks again and we are glad we could work this out!

	21-10-2003 19:26									#75
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This new Monkey ambassador is a marked improvement. Excuse the cynicism, but it might not be a bad thing if H_E stayed on the sick list for some time.

	27-10-2003 19:46									#76
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I agree, Cort.

Latest missive to the Monkeys:

quote: conmcb25, How goes the Monkey's research of Literature? I wanted to get a sense of how long it was going to take you (and how long it's going to take Python to finish Philosophy), so we know whether or not we need to go flat-out to keep up. -Arrian

	28-10-2003 19:11									#77
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Oh dear...

quote: OK our best guess is around 20 turns for LIT, based on the fact we should be building another city during the research period. Also we have found another hut! Near the one you get to pop. How about another deal? That helps with the overall research? We would like to trade for one of these techs: The Wheel Warrior Code Math (We would like Philosophy and Code of Laws as well but Im assuming neither you or Monty has those yet. And if Monty is researching Philosophy now thats a for sure you dont have it. ) Let us know what your team thinks. A hut for a tech, same deal as last time. Thanks!

My response:

quote: Interesting. We do in fact have Warrior Code. The Wheel we should have next turn, from Python. I'm not sure we can pass that on w/o their consent. CoD and Python are each 9 turns from Code of Laws and Philosophy, respectively. I will discuss a possible 2nd hut-for-tech trade with my team and get back to you. -Arrian

They're researching at half our speed. They want to do another hut-for-tech deal.

Python wants to keep the pedal to the metal on research, for good reason: getting to republic asap. The problem with that is that by the time Monkey gets Literature, we'll probably be nearly halfway done with Republic. They can trade Lit for CoL/Philo probably, but then what?

I think we need to really ponder what we can ask of Monkey that isn't a) tech or b) money. My (very) rough ideas:

- the aforementioned use of their worker(s) to assist in jungle chopping or other worker actions.
- they agree to build a galley and try to contact other nations, with the stipulation that they pass on contact free of charge.
- they agree to gift us their luxury (ivory, IIRC) for x turns as soon as we have a trade connection.

-Arrian

	28-10-2003 19:22									#78
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Oh dear indeed. Didn't they promise to research at 100%?

I'm not too keen on the galley idea (too easy for them to screw us IMHO), but both the worker and luxury sound good.

We have the option to do another "tech for hut" deal, probably involving Warrior Code. It depends how lucky we feel really.

	28-10-2003 19:42									#79
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Exactly.

I think they're actually trying, FP (as I just told SR in my latest missive to him). They don't appear to have any rivers (certainly not by Primate Central) and they did not build an early granary. Their growth is slow. When we established our embassy w/them in 2110bc (5 turns ago?), they were at size 2, with 10 gold in the bank. They're not hoarding gold, and they appear to have relatively low pop. That means their research capacity is garbage.

I think we should consider hut-for-WC. It would keep them from falling horribly far behind, and keep them happy (I hope).

OH! I just realized something... we need to REJECT the wheel from Python (if possible)! If we accept it, the tech we would get from a hut would be Horseback Riding. First off, we'd much rather get Mysticism. Second, that means we cannot do a chariot->horseman upgrade. The first point is the big on in my mind. While I love the chariot->horse upgrade in SP, I honestly don't think we will have time to do so in any decent numbers, and frankly horsies vs. Numidians or Pikemen don't do very well.

Hmm... another possible thing Monkey can give us, though, once we find out if they have it: IRON.

-Arrian

	28-10-2003 20:53									#80
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Iron, Workers, Luxuries - these are all feasible trade items for our tech to keep Monkey going. We also get map info again if we do another hut deal.

How about we ask them to build a road to join our empires? It might be good way for them to come and cut our throats but it would enable earlier resource trading. The alternative is to wait for mapmaking and build harbours, before we could take payment by resource.

	28-10-2003 21:32									#81
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That's a possibility. I'd thought of a road. The problems with it are both military and economic. The military part is obvious - that road could be a dagger in our heart. The economic part is that Monkey is already lagging. They need to use their workers close to home to improve their economy. Taking a worker away from that to build a road (which would take quite a while, given the distance) would hamper that.

Having said that, given that our options are kinda limited, I think a roadbuilding plan might be a good cooperative effort both teams could go in on. We have 3 more cities to build in our main core (the coastal city which is next - Burundy, the desert city west of Izz, and the coastal town east of Silesia). After that, we could prioritize building south into the jungle. That area, once developed, could be an awesome second core (Forbidden Palace, mmm). If we can build cities down to the southern edge of the jungle, then all Monkey needs to do is road their way that far.

To the extent that they are really bothering with the roleplaying aspect of their team, we can "compensate" for cutting down the jungle by agreeing to plant some forest elsewhere once we have Engineering.

-Arrian

	29-10-2003 01:15									#82
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Shall we table this until our scout sees more of what's down there (such as whether or not they have iron, and if they do, how many sources) or even until we pop the first hut?

I'm in no rush to give them WC. Writing was a gateway tech they needed to research other techs all three teams wanted. WC just gives them archers. The benifit is reserved for barb killing and/or a rush against us.

-Arrian

	29-10-2003 18:35									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I'm in no rush to give them WC. Writing was a gateway tech they needed to research other techs all three teams wanted. WC just gives them archers. The benifit is reserved for barb killing and/or a rush against us. -Arrian

Today is REALLY my paranoid day
I prefer not to trade WC and have them built a road towards us. By now, they'll realized they are in a weaker position than we and Phythonia. To level things a bit, they could Archer-rush us.
Let's wait until we know if they have iron and if they are willing to trade some.

	29-10-2003 18:58									#84
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A little paranoia is probably a good thing.

I think we'll stall them on WC for a while.

-Arrian

	29-10-2003 19:24									#85
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From our pov, the time we want them to build archers, if at all, would be for barb farming to supplement their weaker economy.

If we don't like the risky idea of a connecting road yet then OK, but if it were hypothetically to happen one day, and we didn't want them to divert from their economy, we could pump a 'stooge' of workers, gift them to Monkey, and let Monkey's trait build the road with them at the same rate as if we controlled the workers, but with no upkeep for anybody. Thinking about it, allied civs could really go to town on this one.

	29-10-2003 20:05									#86
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That's not a bad idea, though we desperately need all the workers we can get at this point.

They can farm barbs with a Numidian or two. Those things are practically invincible against barbs.

-Arrian

	29-10-2003 20:22									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian They can farm barbs with a Numidian or two. Those things are practically invincible against barbs. -Arrian

Of course, the Numids.

btw, in the gen forum (church of the winged monkey thread) conmcb25 has promised to tell his Monkey team-mates a great panag story in their private forum. Of course, up popped panag on cue, but it'd be a good laugh if we asked for The Panag Story as part of a trade deal.

If we can share a joke with them they might not want to kill us as much.

	29-10-2003 20:36									#88
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* Arrian files that one away for later use

It never hurts to have good rapport.

-Arrian

	30-10-2003 05:54									#89
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I give you 3 Workers, iron, and Lit for... The Panag Story.

	30-10-2003 18:55									#90
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Latest missive to Monkey (damn, forgot to work in the Panag story... will do that next time):

quote: conmcb25, As you guys no doubt noticed, our scout has reached your northern border. It is my understanding that the hut that was involved in the writing deal is south of Primate Central. Can you provide more precise directions? The current plan, I believe, would be for our scout to move 1,1 or 1,2 (as the numberpad flies) next turn, cutting between Primate Central and the city to its NW (Gorilla?). Let me know if you have an objections (I don't want to get in the way of a worker, or a settler team or something) or if there is a better way. Second, with regard to Warrior Code, we're still discussing it. It isn't urgent, is it? We very well may end up doing it, but I think some of us would like to pop the writing hut first, and then decide what we want to do. Is there an immediate need for archers in Monkeyland? -Arrian