30-10-2003 18:59									#91
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Oh bother:

quote: Minor correction, heh, our scout is actually on a hill 1 tile away from your northern border. There is a forest tile to his "1" so I would imagine we would move him 4, 2 next turn. I need to actually look at the screenshots, not go off of memory. Sorry 'bout that. -Arrian p.s. Any chance you will throw in that Panag story in a deal for Warrior Code?

	30-10-2003 19:14									#92
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Well put

	31-10-2003 02:27									#93
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More minor chitchat:

quote: Arrian I posted your dipatches in my forums this morning and then had a busy day so couldn't get back to you PDQ. But I just wanted to let you know Im working it and will get better directions. No feedback in my forum yet. Ill be back to you soon. Oh BTW it lookis like Ill be the permanent ambassador now. H_E is back but wants to focas on internal affairs issues. Thanks again for all your support! conmcb25

...

quote: Cool, thanks. Working with H_E was a pleasure, and working with you has been too, so from my perspective it's all good. -Arrian

	03-11-2003 05:29									#94
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Shite.

quote: OK on directions: Since I can't technically give you a map here is the easiest thing to do. Follow that mountain range south keeping the sea to your east. Finish your movement in the mountains or hills. There are two hill mountain squares where you will be in our culture area but dont worry about it. Since we are on a pennisula you HAVE to cross our culture path. If my guys ***** about it, Ill just tell em to shut up! In a couple of turns you will get closer and we should be able to see you. But basically keep the sea to your immediate east and you will run right into it. Different topic. Can I ask why you guys are hesitating on a tech for the second hut? My team was just curious. Thanks!

...

quote: Damnit. I screwed up. First off, I wasn't online this weekend until just now, and didn't get your directions until now. Cort Haus, however, already played the turn, and continued the way we were already moving, which puts our scout on course to pass just west of Primate Central. We're smack dab in your cultural territory. I apologize for that. I think we assumed that we'd use the flat land so our scout could move at full speed, rather than slogging through the mountains. If I'd logged on yesterday and checked my PMs, this wouldn't have happened. At this point, the quickest way to get him out of your way is to have him move south again next turn to get him around PC, then cut east. As for the other deal, well, we're pondering how lucky we feel (with huts). It's a gamble, trading a tech for a hut. We could very well get nothing. Plus, while writing was a major gateway tech you guys needed to be able to research things like Literature or Map Making, warrior code doesn't really open much up (HBR, once you have the wheel). Also, with writing, there was the issue of the timing - you were just finishing up IW, and therefore there was some time pressure on us to get a deal done ASAP so that we all could proceed with the 3-way tech alliance. So like I said, we're pondering how lucky we feel. One suggestion was to see what we got out of the first hut, and then make a decision. -Arrian

	03-11-2003 19:06									#95
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From Monkey:

quote: OK try this: Key strokes: 221222221 That should get you right on top of it. Looks like about 4 turns till you see it and pop on the fifth. Good luck!

I'm going to send him a short note explaining that we won't be popping the hut until the philo/col trade goes through with Python, so we can select the wheel as our research when we pop the hut.

-Arrian

	03-11-2003 19:13									#96
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- so we just go there and fortify for a turn or two. Beats slogging through the mountains on the coast.

	03-11-2003 19:24									#97
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Indeed. Actually, we can do a little minor exploring (circling the hut, like a prize fighter ).

-Arrian

	03-11-2003 20:43									#98
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Yeah - bobbing, weaving and casting spells on the hut. If monkey don't mind. I was suggesting we stand still to avoid antagonising them but if it's out of their borders I suppose they can't complain.

Can those directions be incorporated on the Plan ?

	03-11-2003 21:33									#99
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They can indeed, but now that I have to rework the damn thing (due to my inability to follow MY OWN INSTRUCTIONS ), it may take a little while.

-Arrian

	04-11-2003 06:02									#100
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To Monkey:

quote: Speaking of scout directions, I note your warrior has hit our southern border. He seems to be poised to go around to the east. I suggest he go west, and here is why: It's not that the eastern route will take you through our territory (it will, because we also started close to the coast, and we *just* built a coastal city this turn), but that your warrior will have to dodge a worker and a settler team that will be moving right through that area. That's just gonna be a hassle to make sure we don't get in each other's way. If you go 'round to the west, there will be no such issues. -Arrian

	05-11-2003 06:22									#101
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To Monkey:

quote: Con, Hmm, did you mean "3" when you said "1" ? I moved our scout 2,2 the turn after getting your message. Then, this turn (1725bc) he is supposed to move 12 according to your directions. The problem is that 1 is a coastal water tile. So I moved him 2, 6. He is now sitting 22 of Primate Central. -Arrian

	05-11-2003 20:11									#102
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Response from con:

quote: Hmm, I dont think so but keep heading 2 and a few 1's. The hut is south and one or two squares west of Primate Central. Ill take a look at the save but you definately dont want to go 6 anymore. (BTW Im new at this keypad thing so bear with me )

	07-11-2003 01:38									#104
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quote: Arrian. OK I just got a chance to take a quick look. 22111 will put you right on top of the hut., assuming you are 2 squares due south of PC. (I didn't look at the save just a screen shot in our private forums.)

...

quote: Great, thanks. I'll stick this in our forum. -Arrian

	13-11-2003 01:12									#105
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Message to Monkey. Since Cort & I are 2/3 of our active members (unless FP hasn't left yet... eek, I don't remember when he was supposed to leave exactly), and we both agree on WC-for-hut, I went ahead and offered the deal to Monkey.

quote: Hey, Ok, we've decided that Warrior Code-for-hut is ok with us, provided that you not trade Warrior Code onward. Python doesn't have it yet. I'm going to offer it to them as well, either for cash or to be tacked on to some future tech deal. Until now, I've been operating under the assumption that each team has exclusive rights to trade tech it researches/gets from huts. Hence though we have the wheel from Python, I consider it their tech to trade, no ours. Similiarly, once you guys get Literature, I figure you will trade it to CoD and Python seperately, thus getting the most out of it. I'll clarify with Sir Ralph to make sure we're on the same page. Let me know if the WC-for-hut deal is acceptable. If so, can you provide directions to the new hut (starting from the tile where the 1st hut was)? The first hut gave us Mysticism. I had engineered things to maximize the chances of that, but I'm still psyched - it's good luck on our part. We don't have a clue yet as to how we're going to fit it into our research consortium scheme. We hadn't really thought it out that far, since we didn't know for sure if we would get it. Now we have, and we're started talking. We're trying to come up with an approach that moves us all forward. -Arrian

	13-11-2003 01:59									#106
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How do NAPs work? I've seen them mentioned in the PTWDG1 but haven't seen a definition. 'Non Aggression Pact', I assume is what it stands for - is it a generally-accepted out-of-game treaty of PBEM and do we want to start talking about this with our neighbours?

	13-11-2003 02:26									#107
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NAP would be a non-agression pact, yeah.

The trouble with them is twofold:

1) Fully define "agression."
2) If a team really thinks they must attack you to have a shot at victory, a NAP isn't going to stop them.

Therefore, I feel that NAPs are pointless wastes of time.

Look at what happened between GoW and GS in PTWDGI. We signed a NAP, but then GS did certain things which GoW considered to be aggressive (passive-aggressive) and they decided to break the NAP and attack the cities we accepted from RP. So much for that NAP.

Then look at the MPP RP and GoW had. GoW attacked them anyway. Their justification that a MPP doesn't necessarily include a NAP is flimsy at best. The fact is that teams will act in what they perceive to be their best interests, regardless of agreements, and work out some sort of justification as they go. Vondrack was right.

-Arrian

	13-11-2003 03:02									#108
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OK, so ultimately NAPs don't deter a determined or desperate civ, but they may have some effect at the margin.

Other options could therefore be to persuade them through words and actions that our prosperity is in their interest.

Logically, we've more to fear from Python than Monkey in the short term. We are seriously in Python's way, but as I said on the other thread, they should be enjoying the tech alliance too.

Longer term, all bets are off - but IMO there's not an immediate danger, though I think we should be considering dicussions which emphasise the benefits to Monkey of a mutualist approach. They're not cramped for sapce yet, nor will they be for some time.

	13-11-2003 21:05									#109
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Received from Monkey:

quote: Arrian You got a green light on the tech for hut trade. Here are directions straight from Beta: quote: Also - I suggest the following moves to get them there: 1st move - 6-3 2nd move - 6 to hill 3rd move - 2-3 to hut. I will move Giles to a position 9 of the hut so he can watch over things. We need to be a bit more careful as there is one loose barb in the area. (I think - or did I kill him??) Giles can be their advance guard, but tell them to make their first scout move one tile at a time to be sure. The barb may be hiding in the woods 3-3 from the 1st hut. Everything else either they, or we, can see So be darn carefull there maybe a loose barb around there, if you dont understand these directions let me know. I haven't looked at the save since last week, been kind of busy with RL as you know. BTW Giles is one of our Monkey Warriors

And my response...

quote: Con, Excellent. Pleasure doing business with you guys, as usual. I will leave instructions to send you WC next turn. Well, if we get a tech from this hut, it will be Horseback Riding. We're researching republic and so we don't have the option of blocking that off by selecting it as current research, like we did with the last one. But I'd be pretty surprised if we manage to get tech again. I believe our scout moved westward from the original hut last turn (4,4 ?), based on the turn screenshots, so it will take 1 turn to get him back to the original hut location, and then three more turns, based on Beta's directions, to reach the hut. To the extent you can direct Giles to watch our poor defenseless little guy's back, it will be much appreciated. If you guys play a turn and see that we're about to walk into certain death, can you please PM not only me, but also Cort Haus, who plays the turns as much as I do? Just in case I don't see it in time. Thanks! -Arrian p.s. How's Literature coming?

	14-11-2003 05:57									#110
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from Giles the Monkey Escort:

quote: Hi Cort. Giles has moved to a hilltop position to the east of your scouts position - and the good news is that is that it is all clear. No sign of a barb. Please proceed as per conmcb's directions. If someone appears, we will let you know and we can deal with him. Good luck with the hut! ....Beta.

and the reply

quote: Salutations, noble primate Giles, May your Cappuchino's be frothy, your Howlers be in fine voice, and your Silver-backs glisten in the sweet dawn. Thank you for your most curteous escort. A pleasure to meet you, Giles. Enjoy Warrior Code when you recieve it next turn, and have fun farming barbs! - Cort.

except that Beta's mailbox was full (what are Vox up to?) so I sent it by email too.

	17-11-2003 18:53									#111
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quote: Just a quick note letting you know that Giles moves SE and reports no barbarians. But please be aware, that we cannot see tile 2,3 from his position. This tile is next to the goodie hut, and we cannot tell if a barbarian is hiding in it. We mention this, because we know there are barbarians in the area. Please take care. You may want to wait one more turn, so that Giles can guarantee your saftey. Kind Regards Hot_Enamel of Team Monkey (This has also been sent to Cort Haus)

...

quote: Thanks, H_E. We're in no particular rush with this hut, so I think we'll play it safe. -Arrian

	17-11-2003 21:49									#112
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Monkey were obliged to offer an escort for our scout, so that they could deliver their side of the deal. However, they could have happily waved us on to the hut this turn knowing that we might lose him next go to a barb if they wanted to put a dent in our exploration of their peninsula.

They haven't done that - they've warned us- which bodes well for our relations with them.

	18-11-2003 01:35									#113
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Indeed.

-Arrian

	21-11-2003 02:25									#114
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I sent a quick note to conmcb25 -

quote: con, FYI - we popped hut #2, and received a big fat nothing. Oh well. -Arrian

	21-11-2003 20:46									#115
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More messages back and forth:

quote: Crap, well our luck was bound to run out. Well we have a third hut, we could just pop it ourselves but are willing to consider a deal, let us know. Thanks! conmcb25

...

quote: Hmm, what would the deal involve? Ceremonial Burial? Do you guys not have that yet? We know that if we pop hut #3 and get tech, that tech will be HBR, which is a double-edged sword. We did it for the WC deal, but I don't know if we'd want to do it again... so if we did do a hut deal, we'd probably hold off popping it for quite some time (until we had republic and could switch to HBR to block that off)... I dunno, it might be best if you guys pop it yourselves. I'll take this back to the team, of course, and I'll let you know what we think. -Arrian

	21-11-2003 21:37									#116
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They're still exploring? How much land is there down there?

	21-11-2003 21:54									#117
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Oh, I'd imagine they've known about hut #3 for a while now. They've most likely explored all, or nearly all, of what's down there.

-Arrian

	21-11-2003 22:37									#118
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Yeah, thinking about it - their "oh we've just found another hut" each time we pop one isn't so realistic seeing as they said ages ago that there were no other civs down there.

	01-12-2003 16:51									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Message to Monkey. Since Cort & I are 2/3 of our active members (unless FP hasn't left yet... eek, I don't remember when he was supposed to leave exactly), and we both agree on WC-for-hut, I went ahead and offered the deal to Monkey.

the other 1/10 of the team approves, albeit a bit late...

	01-12-2003 16:52									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus They haven't done that - they've warned us- which bodes well for our relations with them.

and we plan to backstab them?