13-01-2004 21:58									#151
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I replied to con's last message:

quote: con, I don't know what to do, exactly. We've been discussing a possible cash-for-republic trade with you guys. Can you dilvulge your gold-per-turn intake at maximum tax? Our current research is horseback riding, and will be done soon (4 turns, I think). After that, we will be researching Polytheism, possibly at 40-turn pace (not sure on that yet). Python is doing Construction. -Rob

	13-01-2004 22:02									#152
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From a prior message from con:

quote: Let us know when your scout starts heading back north. Just so I can let my guys know. Thanks!

It sounds like we're ok to move north, so long as we give notice.

I will send con this:

quote: con, We have decided we do want to bring our scout back north. This turn we just played, I think he was left sitting on the hill down there in the tundra, because we weren't sure what to do with him yet. Beginning next turn, however, I think we will begin moving him north. Should we hug the east coast? Or would you guys prefer a different route? -Rob

	15-01-2004 19:24									#153
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OH MY:

quote: Arrian, well we have hotly debated this topic in the private forum and came up with this: (and Im quoting after we discussed the wording): "It was our understanding that we were to work together in a tech alliance, and although not formally written, we were to swap MM for Republic. If CoD got MM from some other means, then team monkey should not be disadvantaged by CoD not keeping up their end of our arrangement" So our position is we expended a ton of research on MM, so you could research Republic and we could do a trade. That was done in good faith on our part. The feeling of the team is we would like for you to live up to the agreement . Our hope is we can get past this hurdle and continue our tech agreement. And our getting Republic is KEY to making sure we can keep up and all benefit. Thanks con

Hrm. My initial reaction is "I don't f'in think so." However, we're getting close to being ready for a war, so I think right now the best policy is to try and drag this dispute out a bit, remaining polite, but not caving in entirely.

Oh, and perhaps we should just disband that southern scout.

-Arrian

	15-01-2004 19:31									#154
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Yes, let's disband the scout. Sorry, I'm a bit low on ideas about this monkey-business.

They keep wanting us to dispose of our about-to-expire civ trait and give them stuff for nothing. They are basically saying that they want Republic for nothing, it seems.

You're right - we should politely string this out for a bit.

	15-01-2004 19:45									#155
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DRAFT RESPONSE:

Con,

I am of two minds about this issue. On the one hand, I was caught by surprise at getting MM from the hut, and I understand your team's frustration about it. On the other, I think CoD has been more than fair to this point. Furthermore, Republic is an extremely expensive tech, which CoD worked very hard to research. Even if we had not gotten MM from the hut, I think some sort of compensation (whether it was gold or something else) was contemplated for a MM - Republic trade.

So now we're in a position where we got MM from a hut (which you traded us for Mysticism - the outcome of the hut was unexpected, yes, and I think we're willing to take that into account when negotiating on this issue, but if we wanted to dig our heels in, frankly the hut and its outcome have already been paid for) and now you want us to *give* you Republic, for free. CoD has been fine with structuring trades that weren't necessarily exactly even between us. But giving a cost 28 (672 beakers, it cost us!) tech away?

Is there any middle ground here?

-Arrian

	15-01-2004 20:05									#156
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Excellent, Arrian. I've got the editor here, and Republic base price is 28 against a mere 12 for mapmaking.

As you said, we've paid for mapmaking. Letting this thing gently slide into a breakdown of good feeling may not be such a bad thing. I think can hear Hot_Enamel from here - it's the same as his approach to us in the early game. Do they resent having to research Mapmaking now, thinking we should give it to them, and give them Republic too?

How many turns to war? Could some protracted negotions end with us giving them Republic in an act of great magnanimity - hoping they'll switch to it as we attack? However, if they escape with Republic, they've got a nice little treasure on the boat if they meet the other civs first.

	15-01-2004 20:10									#157
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Thinking further - they've had three techs at no risk from three huts. We've had to gamble each time and got lucky twice. They were entitled to spot the flaw in our plan to get Mysticism from the hut, but they missed it the same as us.

They can still trade maps for something good from Python. Maybe they could make us an offer for Republic? They won't be able to, of course, but we could see what they suggest.

	15-01-2004 20:23									#158
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So, any specific changes you think should be made to my draft PM?

We need to drag this out for 10-15 more turns.

I estimate that we will upgrade our swords on T95. They start marching south on T96. The southern barracks town is founded on or about T97 (provided things haven't already erupted into war by then). Barracks rushed with Python money on T98. Complete and traded to Python on T99. Somewhere in there we need to also upgrade our horsies, and rush the 2nd galley to completion.

That's a long time to drag this out. Granted, we'd prolly want to give them republic around T97... so that's what, 12 turns? Still a long time.

-Arrian

	15-01-2004 20:37									#159
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No, I can't think of any changes - I think that draft has it.

12 turns is a long time. Probably too long, realistically. We have to keep punting the ball back into their court - let them do the work, make the offers and waste their time as happened to GS in the other DG. Eventually things will either break down or we say that we'll give it them for free on turn 97. I still don't know if we can rely on them to immediately have a revolution. They might say "give it another four turns while we finish these NM builds".

	15-01-2004 20:41									#160
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Maybe we could use negotiations for intel-gathering, like finding out whether they want republic yet - how eager are they to switch into it

	15-01-2004 21:44									#161
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They certainly seem eager to switch:

quote: And our getting Republic is KEY to making sure we can keep up and all benefit.

Ok, I'm going to send the draft PM above, with maybe some minor edits.

-Arrian

	15-01-2004 22:07									#162
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PM (edited more heavily than I intended originally) sent to Monkey:

quote: Con, I am of two minds about this issue. On the one hand, I was caught by surprise at getting MM from the hut, and I understand your team's frustration about it. On the other, Republic is an extremely expensive tech, which CoD worked very hard to research. Even if we had not gotten MM from the hut, some sort of compensation was contemplated for a MM - Republic trade. Map Making is a cost 12 tech, or 288 beakers. Republic is cost 28, or 672 beakers. So when you talk about expending a ton of research on something, we know all too well what you mean. CoD has been fine with structuring trades that weren't necessarily exactly even between us, in the interest of advancing both teams. However, even a deal of Map Making for Republic straight up would have been a major concession on our part (there is a difference of 384 beakers there!). I thought that we had discussed some sort of compensation for the difference (though admittedly we never actually specified what it would be). Now, due to the hut, we already have Map Making. As I said before, we will not trade that on to Python, so you still have that avenue open for trade. Given the SNAFU with the hut, CoD is willing to consider subtracting the value of MM from the value of Republic as if we had gotten MM from you instead of the hut. But that still leaves the difference of 384 beakers between the two techs to talk about. We are willing to negotiate to find a middle ground here if you guys are too. -Arrian * - which you traded us for Mysticism. The outcome of the hut was unexpected, yes, and I think we're willing to take that into account when negotiating on this issue, but if we wanted to dig our heels in, the hut and its outcome have already been paid for. I forgot about MM as a possibility from the hut, but that's something you guys could have caught too.

	15-01-2004 22:37									#163
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I think that's really good

	15-01-2004 23:07									#164
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Quick reply from con:

quote: Roger that, Ill post in my forum and get you a reply. On the Scout coming north my turn players would prefer you hug the east coast to stay out of the way of some movements. Thanks! Steve K

So... we may not want to disband that scout. I say go north, young man, and hug the coast. If the barb galleys start moving towards the Frumpy, we will see it.

-Arrian

	15-01-2004 23:54									#165
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Heh heh - I can't wait to see what's garisonning Pri-Cent!

	21-01-2004 23:54									#166
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Messages from/to Monkey:

quote: Arrian Here is what we are thinking, because this essential double research of MM is going to screw both of us up.: 1, Give us Republic now so we can switch governments. In return we will owe you the appropriate tech points discounted off of MM. To be paid off as we research new techs 2. Give us a free hand to trade Warrior Code, so we can get a better tech deal from Monty, that will of course help us stay caught up. We have map making now. Are we still going to exchange maps? We has agreed to that I believe a while back. I would recommend it since our next topic should be some sort of border agreement between us. I would rather do that sooner than later before something happens and causes mis ubderstanding between us. Thanks! Steve

...

quote: Steve, I'll get back to you in a bit. Cort Haus is away until tomorrow, and I definitely want his input. -Rob

So they are still asking us to give them republic. They do offer to make up the tech costs later, which, if we didn't intend to attack them, we might consider.

The question now is how to stall on this for another ~12 turns.

-Arrian

	23-01-2004 02:17									#167
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Something else I think we've forgotten to discuss: the map trade.

I assume that's ok? We did, IIRC, lead them to believe we would trade them our map.

The only question is "world map" vs. "territory map" because our world map contains Python's territory map.

So my inclination is to offer a territory map trade. Agreed?

-Arrian

	23-01-2004 05:40									#168
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Yes, we'll trade T-Maps.

	23-01-2004 13:23									#169
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OK, makes sense

	27-01-2004 18:57									#170
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Messages from/to Monkey:

quote: Greetings Arrian. My apologies for screwing up the map trade. I was waiting for the others to show up in our forum to OK the trade - they went awol for a couple of days - and then with the last save, I exited the trade screen intending to come back and reload it at the end of the turn and forgot. Sorry. We are up for the trade, so if you reload it, we will accept. Also - I know conmcb is witing for a response on the tech trade issues. I know it is a bit of a mess - but coming up with a deal which gets us republic would be appreciated. Cheers - hope you are enjoying this weather - if you live anywhere in the east. I'm in Toronto - and at home today. ....Beta the Lion-Tailed Macaque of Team Monkey.

...

quote: Understood, Beta. I'll let Cort know (he's been playing the turns mostly) about the map trade. Sorry for taking so long about the tech trade issues. I was away this weekend and was pretty exhausted when I got back, and just didn't have the energy to deal with it (as you say, it's a mess). I'll get something to you guys soon. -Arrian

	27-01-2004 21:24									#171
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One objective might be to get them to save some gold and give it to us on T99, or whatever. That would be difficult to arrange, and might send a signal if we're fussy about the exact turn.

Or they might want to talk about future techs - that could spin out a while. We could apply lessons from GoW in the other DG, and use negotiations as information-gathering exercises, rather than plain dealing.

So we could try and find out their tech / gold policy - like what are they researching now they've finished maps? Will thay have gold? Are they willing to pay gold? Maybe we should note each turn what techs they are behind so we don't miss anything.

	27-01-2004 22:51									#172
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I'm thinking that my next message will say we're unwilling to simply give them republic, because it's such a big tech (both in research cost and overall importance), and asking what cash they have on hand to maybe structure a deal that involves a cash payment in a few turns in exchange for republic, with the promise of research points down the road.

Republic is 28, MM is 12, right? Let's say we agree to waive the 12 off the cost of republic, due to the hut SNAFU. That leaves 16 research points, or 384 gold.

How about we ask them for 144g up-front, leaving 240 (10 research points) to make up later (heh, heh)? Timing is critical, obviously, but I'm hoping that the negotiations will drag a bit more, such that by the time we agree to a number, it can happen almost immediately, without it being too soon from a military perspective.

EDIT: alternatively, we could start out by asking for more money up-front... what is the difference between the most expensive entry-level medieval tech and the cheapest one? That's the amount we should have "left over for later" and the rest we should ask for in gold.

-Arrian

	27-01-2004 23:05									#173
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Monotheism and Engineering are 36, Feudalism is 32

	27-01-2004 23:25									#174
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They may well have accumulated gold, which could be awkward if they're soon ready to pay the asking price.

They still get their MM trade with Python - waiving the whole cost would be us discarding the hut benefit that we paid for.

	28-01-2004 00:09									#175
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True.

How about we waive 1/2 of the beaker cost of MM: 6 points. That leaves 22 points of republic to get paid for. Even if we assume they can research an expensive medieval tech and we research feudalism, that's only 4 points different, leaving 18 points... which is 432 gold.

Wanna ask them for ~400 gold?

-Arrian

	28-01-2004 00:53									#176
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That sounds more like it.

	29-01-2004 21:07									#177
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DRAFT PM to con & Beta:

quote: To team Monkey, c/o con & Beta: We have discussed tech trading issues in our forum at length, and have a counteroffer for you. My apologies for taking so long, it's a combo of me being busy, tired, and of course the complexity of the issues at hand. As stated before, republic is a cost 28 tech. Map making is a cost 12 tech, and we already have it, via a hut we paid for with mysticism. However, getting MM from that hut was an unexpected SNAFU. Therefore, we have already agreed not to trade MM to Python, and we are willing to also subtract 1/2 the research cost of MM from republic (12/2 = 6. 28-6=22). That leaves 22 points of research. You have brought up the idea of owing us research points, to be made up in the future. The difference between the research cost of Monotheism & Engineering (both 36) and Feudalism (32) is 4 points. So if Monkey were to research one of the expensive ones while CoD did a cheap one, that would recoup 4 research points. 22-4 is 18. Projecting further into the future seems to us to be foolish on our part. We are willing to trade you republic now for gold plus the promise of tech later, but are not willing to provide republic for nothing now and the promise of recouping 22 research points down the road. That's a long way down the road. 18 tech points at this level of play is 432 beakers. Let's round down a bit and say 400 gold. Republic for 400 gold, and the promise of 4 tech points in the future. That's our offer. What say you? -Arrian

	29-01-2004 21:29									#178
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Excellent draft.

It's a very reasonable offer from us - 3 concessions. If they say "yeah, here's the 400g" too soon I suppose we just have to build and upgrade another 10 warriors with it to compensate.

If they do go for something like it, it'll be tough to time the handover right - with Python a little behind its production schedule. If they got a six-turn anarchy and we triggered their GA on turn one ...

	29-01-2004 21:37									#179
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Yeah, I am secretly worried they have 400 gold lying around. But 400 gold is 10 extra swords, as you point out.

I just noticed I didn't deal with the issue of Warrior Code. I will include a polite "no" on that, and send.

-Arrian

	29-01-2004 21:54									#180
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Outbound to team Monkey:

quote: To team Monkey, c/o con & Beta: We have discussed tech trading issues in our forum at length, and have a counteroffer for you. My apologies for taking so long, it's a combo of me being busy, tired, and of course the complexity of the issues at hand. As stated before, republic is a cost 28 tech. Map making is a cost 12 tech, and we already have it, via a hut we paid for with mysticism. However, getting MM from that hut was an unexpected SNAFU. Therefore, we have already agreed not to trade MM to Python, and we are willing to also subtract 1/2 the research cost of MM from republic (12/2 = 6. 28-6=22). That leaves 22 points of research. You have brought up the idea of owing us research points, to be made up in the future. The difference between the research cost of Monotheism & Engineering (both 36) and Feudalism (32) is 4 points. So if Monkey were to research one of the expensive ones while CoD did a cheap one, that would recoup 4 research points. 22-4 is 18. Projecting further into the future seems to us to be foolish on our part. We are willing to trade you republic now for gold plus the promise of tech later, but are not willing to provide republic for nothing now and the promise of recouping 22 research points down the road. That's a long way down the road. 18 tech points at this level of play is 432 beakers. Let's round down a bit and say 400 gold. Republic for 400 gold, and the promise of 4 tech points in the future. That's our offer. What say you? You also requested trading rights for warrior code. I'm sorry, but we must decline. We still want to trade that to Python ourselves. -Arrian

Ideally, they end up agreeing to give us a bundle of cash, but need some time to raise it.

-Arrian