12-11-2003 00:11									#151
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Now we have cities - plural - trade seems the obvious move - if only to hoard them for WoWs, but I love internal trade routes

Stu

	12-11-2003 06:06									#152
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And the problem with Marco Polo is you have to have something in white to get a trade. If you are dreadfully behind MPE won't be helpful in gaining tech. Lighthouse allows exploration earlier...but beware, down the road some Civ will research Magnetism. Triremes at sea that turn will get a nasty surprise.

Monk

	12-11-2003 06:40									#153
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The good thing about Pottery is that it leads to Harbours and Caravels, two things which we will probably need desperately sooner than we would like

I'm not so sure I like the idea of hoarding Caravans towards Magellan. Remember, Cope's has just been built... which means at least one AI has known Astronomy (prerequisite to Navigation) for some time. I'm not sure we'll be able to get our choice of wonder even if we stockpile food 'vans. Better to put some trade routes in place... and yes I too would have headed for Trade before Pottery.

I agree, Marco Polo is probably useless. All it would do is scare us.

Hopefully we can get one of Mike's/Leo/Statue/Magellan... if we get none of them, this could take a while

	12-11-2003 07:33									#154
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Hmmm 400 AD and we're mostly wet.

Change stuff around -- the three white goods become units (2 warriors and a dip) the boat gets changes to a Settler.

400 (1) Both boats turn south. but the warrior in Char.

420 (2) Char gets back on line

440 (3) Fire Elvis -- put the citizen in the water. Land ho in the west! Revolt!

460 (4) Monarchy

480 (5) It is a nice BIG rock -- enough for two cities!

500 (6) Scylla has another warrior -- now for a Settler.

520 (7) Char has another warrior -- now for a Settler (I can'believe that the Pheasant hasn't been irrigated to a Buffalo & settled! Ho, ho ho! More land to the West!

540 (8)

560 (9) Barbs are now SE of Troy -- we post a mighty warrior in the trees and our dip on the plains NW of town (leaving only the one Warrior in town; Since the boat was heading due North, we figure that they may attempt the landing on the east side; hopefully our shore garrison will deter them.

Meanwhile in the west, we see a hut. See hut pop. See Argo founded in place of hut (with two whales -- this may be too good to be true! Start a warrior)

580 (10) Huh???!! the Barb boat vanishes! Warrior & Dip return to Troy.

600 (11) Discover Pottery -- (after a few minutes looking at oedo techs, we recall that we are in Scenario mode) opt for Trade (Sorry Duke, but we'll get Sea soon.)

620 (12) See second hut. (Yes -- Argo lies on a rock that is big enough for two huts! Do we pop?) See hut pop. See hut yield a Nomad (what luck!). -- move Nomad along river...the possibilities are huge.

Notes -- The land in the west (with Argo) could be a bona fide continent -- in fact there may be a third isle (or the boat may simply be sailing up a channel). There is enough land there to more than double our great count of five cities. The northern boat has nearly returned to the known waters (finding nothing of value) -- my plan was to use that boat & relocate the working settler (one charge towards irrigation) to Pheasant Isle. Two other settlers are in process -- we can continue them for transport west, or have them become camels in a half dozen turns.

Attachment: sail_620.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	12-11-2003 07:39									#155
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Hmm, after posting my notes -- I see all the new comments; check on the Wonders & we see six ancients done & four Renaissance done as well.

Oh well. Marco's might have been nice (but the Mongols already have it.) Magellan may be gone by the time we get close. I think that our target should be Mike's -- Leo's is iffy (since KRC is done.)

	12-11-2003 08:25									#156
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Looks like some good turns Nice hutwork.

Ben Kenobi is next.

12 turns apiece.

Play list:

1. Oldnslow
2. Ben Kenobi
3. SG[1]
4. Jrabbit
5. La Fayette
6. Straybow (skipped)
7. duke o' york (only on Sunday mornings)
8.
9...

By the way, the next time someone can't take their turn due to RL delays, I'll sneak in a dozen turns in that interim

	12-11-2003 08:38									#157
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At 8 turns per tech, we're practically zooming through the tech tree now. I concur with the choice of Trade. Perhaps we should decide as a group what wonder to aim at (Mikes? Magellan? Statue?). If we each take a different tech course, I fear we will miss out on all the Renaissance/Industrial wonders.

That is a nice looking island you found, OnS. Buffalo and Fish make a decent second city site; so does the rivered forest tile. Building on the island to the east with the little river complex and Buffalo is a good idea too. Maybe we can get a mini-colony going, trade with it, and subsequently grow it into a maxi-colony, even relocating our capital there?

The corruption in Argo is pretty hellacious, though.

(Sorry, got carried away)

	12-11-2003 13:53									#158
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One vote in favour of Magellan

This is a big map with ocean, more ocean, and even more ocean, and those 2 moves available until the end of the game will be more than helpful.

BTW IMO if we have 5 cities, we should have at least 5 triremes at sea.

Meeting the other civs is a must, brothers, and we need sailing to achieve that.


(LF, looking at a new trireme being completed)

	12-11-2003 16:19									#159
	Inflate your Upload Space

Can I just ask STYOM if his rule against trading with other civs means that we just can't use caravans, or if we can't trade techs as well. I'm really hoping it's just the 'vans. Otherwise we're in trouble.....

Great huttin'! Our empire expands, and our corruption increases!

In my defence, I didn't see much point in getting a celebrating republic without harbours to give us 2 food per sea tile. That wouldn't have given us any growth at all, so .
I was very tempted by trade, so I'm glad to see that it has been taken too, but I doubt that we'll get the chance to trade that soon so we may have to get seafaring for ourselves. Can I ask that when the other boat returns from its fruitless trip up north and busies itself ferrying settlers, that one of the new additions to the fleet can go eastwards. Call this a nhunch and ridicule it, even ignore it, but I reckon that there will be land that way, and not north or south for some distance. Sending the boat north was probably my major booboo, but I'm sure others may differ...

	12-11-2003 17:05									#160
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IMHO we need both Magellan's AND Lady Liberty - our forces are not going to be large enough to get the best benefit from Leo's - but this is sounding like a great game for a Commie

Stu

	12-11-2003 17:07									#161
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O'n'S

	12-11-2003 19:20									#162
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Great hut luck!!!

My vote is for Magellan first -- makes everything else easier. Besides, this IS a "sailing" game.

Prepare to crank out camels and use boats for multi-continent trade routes. Then, if we can't get the Lady, settle for Mike's.

	12-11-2003 20:04									#163
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The prohibition against trade is simply a prohibition against Caravans/Freight being shipped to the 'enemy' (Any and all AI cities are the enemy. They're the ones eating our food, kicking our dog, and making goo-goo eyes at Penelope! )

Tech trading and map trading are perfectly legitimate tactics. As are begging for techs and cash, which for the moment seems like all we'd be capable of. None of the diplomatic functions other than city bribe are impaired in this game.

My vote is for Magellan. If I had to prioritize the near-term wonders, it would be Magellan/Statue/Mike/Leo/anything else. Of course, we can get the techs for Magellan and Mike faster than we can get the techs for the other 2... should we try for Magellan, and if we lose it, try for Mike? (And later, try for Statue?) Or does this risk missing all the key wonders? Remember, we had a debate on Colossus vs Lighthouse, and the AI almost finished both ahead of us.

	12-11-2003 20:09									#164
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At least all of our harbour-requiring cities will not need too much encouragement to switch to max trade for all of our internal trade routes!
I like the idea of the buffalo city, and see it providing the expansion with many ships of the line in years to come. Though growth will be stuck at size 2 until we get a harbour, and production won't be improved until Miniaturisation. It shouldn't revolt though.

	12-11-2003 20:17									#165
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york I like the idea of the buffalo city, and see it providing the expansion with many ships of the line in years to come. Though growth will be stuck at size 2 until we get a harbour, and production won't be improved until Miniaturisation. It shouldn't revolt though.

If you mean the 1-tile pheasant/buffalo island N of Troy, I think it's worth building on. If nothing else, it would produce a Freight every 15 turns or so, and as you said, gives us another city to rehome ships to.

	12-11-2003 20:58									#166
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I'd prefer Mike's, but I understand that many prefer Magellan's if only because it'll take forever conquering people if our ships can't take extra moves per turn.
I see Mike's as being of prime importance whichever governmenr we should choose later, bringing happiness in the representatives and pots of cash in fundy. :0

	12-11-2003 21:23									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk And the problem with Marco Polo is you have to have something in white to get a trade. If you are dreadfully behind MPE won't be helpful in gaining tech. Lighthouse allows exploration earlier...but beware, down the road some Civ will research Magnetism. Triremes at sea that turn will get a nasty surprise. Monk

Not completely true; what one player may have another may not, and once you get an exchange going you get to choose which of the other civs techs to take. A good comparison of the Intel screens will usually show you a hole, even if you are way behind. Take a look at one of my Marco Polo Manipulations over at CFC's GOTM some time. The advantage of MPE is getting all Intel screens at the same time, so you can play one off against another. Also, if you are doing pretty badly you are probably Pathetic, so you can form a lot of alliances and beg some tech gifts as well.

Marco Polo would also help with the suprise Mag problem - at least you will know when they start if you are checking carefully.

On a less theoretical leg, though, I would go for Magellan too.

	12-11-2003 21:44									#168
	You can't Trade if you have NOTHING Inflate your Upload Space

All true, Elle, but at the price of exploration until Nav. You may prefer the trade-off but I think not. That developing off-shore colony would be a glimmer under your path.

Having intelligence is very sweet but I prefer the "Stainless Steel Rat" approach. Fight, claw, explore, expand, do anything instead of sitting on your chips in an island redoubt waiting for something to happen.

Now, if you could meld MPE with the Library....

Monk

	12-11-2003 21:56									#169
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Screw the Library. It's a WoW for losers imho.

There are many less costly ways to catch up.

	12-11-2003 22:01									#170
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Make buffalo, build city. With the offshore corruption problem a one tile city is a grand idea. Think internal trade.

LaFayette's multiple boat idea sounds excellent, especially having one to hang around the motherland for defense and shuttle service.

Magellan and the Statue, then try for Mike's if possible. That is a ton of camels so more cities fast.

Excellent turnset OnS!!

Monk

	12-11-2003 22:11									#171
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Screw the Library. It's a WoW for losers imho. There are many less costly ways to catch up.

Yep

I've always thought the best low cost choice was irony but sarcasm comes close, especially with a

Monk

	12-11-2003 23:01									#172
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So hopefully we all agree on aiming at Magellan, then Mike and/or the Statue.

Re: Magnetism. I don't think it should be that big an issue now. We've found land. Triremes can navigate among our core islands safely should the 40W bulb in the Lighthouse fail. And Triremes should be able to navigate the coast of our new territory

I'm thinking it might be worth waiting for Caravels if we want to explore east. Perhaps a good strategy until then would be to build units in the area of Argo (for more cities and exploring Triremes) and improvements/Caravans in our core island cities (since they're the only cities in which the benefits of Markets, Libraries, and Caravans would not be lost to corruption).

I agree with La Fayette re: having more explorers... I guess I'm just hesitant to commit our core cities to building (for exploration) Triremes that may sink should Magnetism appear suddenly.

	12-11-2003 23:28									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I've always thought the best low cost choice was irony but sarcasm comes close, especially with a

	13-11-2003 18:26									#174
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Ben, the Demo game isn't a challenge any more. This game should take priority now!

	14-11-2003 03:43									#175
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Camels, boats and settlers, almost in that order.

If we can put a few camels back & forth from Argo (and Argo II & III), that should help fund the other eight camels AND garner Nav -- hopefully in time.

After that we can "upgrade" our triremes to caravels (at least three in our internal seas -- we can keep the triremes at the fringes near land if we want to stay paranoid)

Ship a few more camels camels back & forth (between Argo IV & V to the wetlands.)...Stockpile a few more hairy beasts for the next wonder of delight...

I see a plan coming together.

	14-11-2003 13:48									#176
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Plan - in a succession game - HERESY - burn him!

Stu

	14-11-2003 14:38									#177
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Let's face it - the plan will last ten turns (is that the limit now?) and then be reduced to charred rubble by the next person to play. So Ben.....

	14-11-2003 18:01									#178
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I regard posted strategic input as a great starting point to my own thoughts.
Its existence virtually guarantees that the actual plan will be...

something else!

	15-11-2003 03:52									#180
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Ben

Unless we have some kind of reply from BK in the next 24 hrs, I propose that SG[1] play.

And if Stu's busy over the weekend, then I'll take the oppo to sneak in a dozen turns. I had planned to play later on, but playing while someone else is delayed makes more sense than jumping in ahead of someone who's ready to play.