08-03-2004 02:51									#121
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quote: I agree. A lot of times in the Senate, you vote on your pal's bill so your bill can go through. Or you vote with your party, so you can get your bills through. OR, you vote to placate your constituency, which may be different than the rest of the country. You gotta realize what Senators do before harping on their record.

or perhaps the bill is going to pass regardless of your vote, and you vote the opposite of what you normally would vote just to placate someone... or to appear more moderate.

quote: Well, of course it is. The thing is that both parties are massive super-parties. They are coalitions themselves. You can see this by the infighting within parties. The Republicans especially have many different sub-parties which wrestle for control.

having only two choices isn't healthy democracy... it's a duopoly.

	08-03-2004 02:52									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Ned In my book, anyone who would consider voting for Kerry is not a Republican and has never been a Republican. Republicans are patriotic, pro-business and socially conservative. Kerry is the antithesis of everything that is Republican.

the Nedaverse is an interesting place isn't it

	08-03-2004 02:54									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Sava the Nedaverse is an interesting place isn't it

Sava, Surely you are not claiming that Kerry exhibits any of the characteristics of a Republican?

	08-03-2004 02:54									#124
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quote: In my book, anyone who would consider voting for Kerry is not a Republican and has never been a Republican.

I'm glad to know what the Nedaverse thinks. Fortunetly we don't live there.

quote: or perhaps the bill is going to pass regardless of your vote, and you vote the opposite of what you normally would vote just to placate someone... or to appear more moderate.

Ah, that too.

quote: having only two choices isn't healthy democracy... it's a duopoly.

I don't see the big deal. I mean, there is more than one choice... it's in the primaries. Both parties are mass coalitions. No European party has the depth of different beliefs of its members as the Democrats and Republicans in the US do.

	08-03-2004 02:57									#125
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quote: No European party has the depth of different beliefs of its members as the Democrats and Republicans in the US do.

and thats precisely the problem. since neither party is specialized, they dont really stand for anything.

	08-03-2004 02:58									#126
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Imran, you are obviously in agreement with me as you are voting for Kerry, primarily, as you stated, because you are against social conservatism, are in now in favor of raising taxes to balance the budget (Kerry's plan) and are against patriotism.

	08-03-2004 03:00									#127
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hahahah. just like you're for liberty ned. hahahaah. youre so full of ****, im about to pass out from noxious gasses.

btw, Kerry's not a patriot? hahahahaha. its a disgrace that you're a californian.

	08-03-2004 03:01									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Sava, Surely you are not claiming that Kerry exhibits any of the characteristics of a Republican?

well, he's more patriotic than Bush (in the sense that being a patriot means doing what is best for your country and not going to war for a vendetta)... Kerry is pro-business in the sense that he wants to empower consumers and alleviate the tax-burden on the middle class so that businesses can have more customers.

Socially conservative? this is an iffy definition. I'm socially conservative... but there's a difference between being conservative and being authoritarian. "Conservatives" claim that they don't want big government telling people what to do, but yet, when it comes to sex, drugs, and rock and roll... they do want the government telling people what they can and can't do.

Looking at Kerry's policies, he's not on the fringe or on the extreme of anything. A lot of his policies make sense. I think he can do a better job stabilizing Iraq. I think he has a greater understanding of what needs to be done to improve domestic security (while Bush cares more about protecting corporate costs than the American people *this is in reference to not wanting to federalize airline security). I think Kerry's economic policies are leaning to the free-trade side. He's not protectionist like Bush. And he's pro-business in the sense he wants to reward businesses that employ Americans.

I don't know how any of Kerry's policy proposals could be classified as unPatriotic, anti-business, or against socially conservative values. I think Kerry would be a lot like Clinton, but without the intern ass-grabbing.

Imran is one of those pragmatic Republicans.

	08-03-2004 03:02									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Imran, you are obviously in agreement with me as you are voting for Kerry, primarily, as you stated, because you are against social conservatism, are in now in favor of raising taxes to balance the budget (Kerry's plan) and are against patriotism.

it's not raising taxes, it's restorting the tax code... and Kerry is proposing more tax credits to the middle and working class than Bush. Plus, I think Kerry will spend less than Bush... and spend more responsibly (which isn't hard BTW).

	08-03-2004 03:02									#130
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quote: Imran, you are obviously in agreement with me as you are voting for Kerry, primarily, as you stated, because you are against social conservatism, are in now in favor of raising taxes to balance the budget (Kerry's plan) and are against patriotism.

See it's the last thing that you haven't proven. That's why it is in the Nedaverse.

--

I think I've also come to the realization that I don't want an 'average joe' running things. It may not be PC, but bring on the elitists . I like a President who listens to classical sometimes, writes poetry, reads novels, knows what a political philosopher is (Jesus ain't it), etc. Give me a GHW Bush anyday .

	08-03-2004 03:07									#131
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quote: I think I've also come to the realization that I don't want an 'average joe' running things. It may not be PC, but bring on the elitists . I like a President who listens to classical sometimes, writes poetry, reads novels, knows what a political philosopher is (Jesus ain't it), etc.

or at least a president who reads a newspaper in the morning... for ****'s sake!

	08-03-2004 03:12									#132
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quote: Kerry is proposing more tax credits to the middle and working class than Bush.

Indeed . He isn't just saying he wants program X, Y, and Z. He is saying he wants to promote things and give TAX CREDITS for X, Y, and Z.

quote: or at least a president who reads a newspaper in the morning... for ****'s sake!

Actually Bush does... it's kind of a myth to make him seem more like the "common man". Laura Bush has said that her and George read about 6 papers at breakfast.... and not just the funny pages .

But still... he does have a lack of culture. Hell, I'm sounding like Bill Bennett here .

	08-03-2004 03:13									#133
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quote: join the darkside imran - vote libertarian. (although their candidates for prez look scary)

I REALLY can't vote for someone who says abolish the income tax. That's just retarded.

	08-03-2004 03:18									#134
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quote: Actually Bush does... it's kind of a myth to make him seem more like the "common man". Laura Bush has said that her and George read about 6 papers at breakfast.... and not just the funny pages

somehow, I don't believe her... maybe it's a common myth, but Dubya doesn't seemed very informed.

quote: I REALLY can't vote for someone who says abolish the income tax. That's just retarded.

	08-03-2004 03:20									#135
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quote: somehow, I don't believe her... maybe it's a common myth, but Dubya doesn't seemed very informed.

I dunno... I think he's much smarter than Rove has him portrayed. I think he's actually pretty sharp in politics. He just doesn't like the finer things in life .

--

Btw, I'm still trying to find out how I'm unpatriotic.

	08-03-2004 03:48									#136
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because you're not completely and one-hundred percent behind our Great and Dear Leader, imran.

	08-03-2004 04:02									#137
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Ned, I really think you need to take a time out, sit in the corner, and count to ten or something.

You are fast becoming more Sava than Sava.

	08-03-2004 04:30									#138
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quote: I REALLY can't vote for someone who says abolish the income tax. That's just retarded.

can you vote for a party against free trade and NAFTA?

	08-03-2004 05:25									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Ned, I really think you need to take a time out, sit in the corner, and count to ten or something. You are fast becoming more Sava than Sava.

	08-03-2004 06:07									#140
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the more ned tries to hold on, the less there is to grasp.

	08-03-2004 06:41									#141
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quote: can you vote for a party against free trade and NAFTA?

Which party is that? I mean the Democrats passed NAFTA (at least their President did), and they are no more anti-free trade than the Bushites are.

BUT, I don't consider being against free trade to be an utterly and completely retarded position.

	08-03-2004 06:51									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo You are as left wing as Chegitz and Agathon.

Only when it comes to feminism, Palestine, and beer.

	08-03-2004 06:55									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Religious charities take some of burdens off the government. Bush's plans seem to work well.

But with no oversight and it goes overwhelmingly to religious right organizations rather than spread across the board. No Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim organizations have received any money under this policy (not that many have applied).

	08-03-2004 07:03									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle @ Che: Idealism is impotent without realism. Candidates for office can't be a total personal favorite.

In a primary, you ought to vote for who you want, not who you think will win the primary. I can see compromising in the general election, but when you're selecting who you want to run for your side???

	08-03-2004 07:04									#145
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quote: Only when it comes to feminism, Palestine, and beer.

Mmmmm... beeeeer

	08-03-2004 07:38									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Sava

Down boy. Let's not be too jealous.

	08-03-2004 07:40									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Btw, I'm still trying to find out how I'm unpatriotic.

Not unpatriotic. Just wierd.

	08-03-2004 07:40									#148
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As the replies to my posts illustrate, Kerry is now trying to run away from his record towards the center. He too is trying to appear patriotic, pro-business and socially conservative, being against gay marriage, for example.

I just don't buy it. I am surprised that anyone does.

	08-03-2004 08:18									#149
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In a primary, you ought to vote for who you want, not who you think will win the primary. I can see compromising in the general election, but when you're selecting who you want to run for your side???

I started to dislike McCain before the primary. It wasn't a situation where I dropped my ideals because of the vote.

	08-03-2004 12:39									#150
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Imran, you're not alone. See Bob Novak's most recent column: Republican malaise.