12-03-2004 22:04									#301
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Not quite, doofus. It's in fact illogical to accuse someone without any proof.

Hey! then stop accusing Al-Qaeda!

No one has accused ETA. Still they are the candidates number one and the more than probable responsible. If I had to bet my money I would say it was ETA, total or partially responsible.

Anyway, when you donīt have probes. And even if you have, is good to use logic. Logic says that it would be so convenient 3 days before the elections that the guilty were Al-Qaeda and not ETA. And logic says that the groups against government are ready to bash the governing party like they have been doing all this year. They donīt mind using death people to achieve their goals.

	12-03-2004 22:07									#302
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Yes, and logics tell you that the person who will benefit the most from this is the PP. Did the PP do this?

	12-03-2004 22:09									#303
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Terrorism is a sad thing, but sometimes people are just looking for it. National autonomous movements are valid causes IMO, and those who don't want to recognize them are exposing themselves to risks.

Very democratic way of thinking. Next time I want something that the majority of people donīt want, I will put a pair of bombs.

quote: This said, it seems like 'negociating' with terrorists can be successful, as demonstrated by the massive opposition to the terror act in Basque territory.

False. Look at the statistics. They have the most autonomy in history. They are not happy. Look at the news for it.

	12-03-2004 22:12									#304
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless 4. Van found with detonators and Arabic Koran tape.

Sorry, but this doesnīt demonstrates anything. They could have been placed by ETA people just to disguise it. They could knew that there are a lot of people willing to blame Bush and Aznar (sorry, I mean Al Qaeda) for the dead people. Thatīs the perfect strike. People day and government loses elections.

	12-03-2004 22:18									#305
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris For example, we might say of a little 11-years old girl with very sexy clothes (perhaps too sexy for her age) walking alone at 1 AM in the street of a poor ghetto that she has a rape coming.

:-O So the people who invented that burka idea were in fact worried about womenīs security.

quote: That doesn't make raping her morally acceptable.

But justifies laws forbidding women to dress like the want to dress. Isnīt it? In democracy people can dress as they want to, as long as it isnīt offensive. Thatīs the basis of democracy, giving freedom to people to act and fo what they want as long as they follow minimum rules of respect to the other citizens.

	12-03-2004 22:21									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Now, say that X and Y start a brawl in a bar. X is at -50, and so is Y. Does that mean that both can substract the other's morality rating to theirs, so that they are in fact at 0? Nope. They are both a -50. Now, say the terrorists are at -100, and the innocent people at -2. Am I implying that in fact the terrorists should be considered at -98? Not at all.

The problem is that in praxis similar thinking is indeed used to justify acts of terror. After sep.11 there were AQ letters published in Arab media which said pretty much "its their own fault". That is a standard argument in terrorist reasoning, much older than AQ terror, because as a terrorist you must convince yourself somehow that you're right in killing your victims. If you can't do that, your own legitimation falls down.

So, I don't doubt it when you say you will not excuse or justify anything, still I can't oversee that others do so with similar reasoning.

	12-03-2004 22:23									#307
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Hey OB- better quit it while you are far far behind....

	12-03-2004 22:23									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch The politics of ETA depends on what you read. They may have been leftist at one time, but nowadays, at least from the academic analysis that Iīve been reading, theyīve skewed more towards a rightist slant with ethnic undertones to their claims.

ETA is leftist nationalism. They are Castroīs friends. PNV is rightist nationalism. In any case, political ideas (right or left) are in second place, and the important thing for them are obtaining the independence (and their little piece of power, their seat at UN, etc, etc) at any means.

quote: Spanish nationalism, since the La Pepa constitution, has been liberal, but Catalan nationalism and, IIRC, Basque nationalism has been conservative.

quote: Nowadays Catalan nationalism is more leftist (ERC) than anything. Iīm not aware of any rightist Catalan Nationalists.

CiU, the party in power of the Catalan government for 23 years (until past Autumn) is conservative.

quote: The number of Herri Batasuana seats in the Cortes reached a high of 8 (in the mid-80s and over 60% of the Pais Vasco and Navarre seats) but has dropped to nothing.

They didnīt participate in the elections of 4 years ago. Thatīs the reason.

quote: Right now, at least from unbiased interpretations of Euskal Barometer, 20% of Pais Vasco residents are hardcore ETA/Independence supporters. There is a vocal minority that terrorizes the majority, including the Castillian speaking people who live there. There is daily low intensity violence from polarized youth that stalls any political resolution.

	12-03-2004 22:46									#309
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Hey OB- better quit it while you are far far behind....

I dare you to explain how someone's else wrong overcomes yours.

EDIT: AND NO, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR CASE OF MADRID BOMBING.

	12-03-2004 22:48									#310
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A lot of what I'vr read about the ETA says that they've drifted far from the left over the decades.

	12-03-2004 22:49									#311
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Of course you are. I'm suprised you don't like how your victims of terrorism have it coming theorem is being applied.

	12-03-2004 22:52									#312
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Very democratic way of thinking. Next time I want something that the majority of people donīt want, I will put a pair of bombs.

Read my posts silly. The terror emerged at a time the Basques didn't have autonomy. The maxim would not be what you wrote, but rather 'next time someone oppresses my right, I will resort to violence'.

quote: False. Look at the statistics. They have the most autonomy in history. They are not happy. Look at the news for it.

Yes, and if back in the 70s Madrid had said 'we won't negociate', what would their autonomy be like now? ETA is weaker mostly because it doesn't have popular support anymore, not because its members have been killed. Look Israeli raids won't ever do anything against terrorism. It will cease when they lose popular support.

	12-03-2004 22:57									#313
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Of course you are. I'm suprised you don't like how your victims of terrorism have it coming theorem is being applied.

That is because you lack basic understanding skills. I did explain that the relationship was not moral.

If we followed your logic, gravity would be responsible for the death of someone who throws himself out of window.

	12-03-2004 22:59									#314
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro The problem is that in praxis similar thinking is indeed used to justify acts of terror. After sep.11 there were AQ letters published in Arab media which said pretty much "its their own fault". That is a standard argument in terrorist reasoning, much older than AQ terror, because as a terrorist you must convince yourself somehow that you're right in killing your victims. If you can't do that, your own legitimation falls down. So, I don't doubt it when you say you will not excuse or justify anything, still I can't oversee that others do so with similar reasoning.

If others use fallacious reasoning, that is not my problem.

	12-03-2004 23:02									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris That is because you lack basic understanding skills.

Then why all the histrionics about how you don't want people to apply your theorem to this particular case.

quote: If we followed your logic, gravity would be responsible for the death of someone who throws himself out of window.

If we followed my logic the person who kills people would be responsible for his actions not his victim.

	12-03-2004 23:05									#316
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Then why all the histrionics about how you don't want people to apply your theorem to this particular case.

Someone sets a a deadly trap on the street, puts huge warning signs around it with sirens, and start a TV campaign to warn people about it.

Someone walks on it and die, even though he perfectly knew what the consequences would be. Who is responsible for the death?

	12-03-2004 23:07									#317
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Then why all the histrionics about how you don't want people to apply your theorem to this particular case.

There is NO causality in this case, because they did nothing for it. The Madrilenes DIDN'T have it coming. I merely said that in some cases the victim has it.

Now, that is another debate- but 9/11 was the case.

	12-03-2004 23:11									#318
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Now, that is another debate- but 9/11 was the case.

This should be interesting. Explain how the people working in the World Trade Center or on those planes had it coming.

	12-03-2004 23:16									#319
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc This should be interesting. Explain how the people working in the World Trade Center or on those planes had it coming.

They where capitalists.

	12-03-2004 23:32									#320
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc This should be interesting. Explain how the people working in the World Trade Center or on those planes had it coming.

I will answer this, but only if you take the time to answer my other previous question.

OK.

International realpolitik usually takes a 'whole country' for responsible of something- or, at least, it has to suppose that the effects on the innocent are meaningless.

If you look at what the American sanctions did to Iraq, or the humanitarian disaster in Afghanistan, or the effects of the Sudan bombing on thousands of children, you have a perfect example of this. The difference being, of course, that the Afghani peasants had no influence on Bin Laden, and that Iraqi children had nothing to do with the Gulf War, while the American people in general supported many of the terrorist acts of its government, and even voted for it.

In some cases, the link between terrorists and American action is direct (the mudjahidins). In most cases, it is indirect- terrorism springs from the political climate which has in part been created by American action.

If a moral action with a mostly negative value (supporting Bush) will knowingly result in another action with also a negative value (terrorism), then those who commited the first action are partly responsible, not only from a causal viewpoint, but also from a moral one.

From there, the 'had it coming' is mainly statistical: most people in the WTC were morally contributing to a climate favorable to terrorism: voting for terrorist parties, buying slave-labor stuff, etc. There will always be some innocents: but since America ignored them in their quest to hurt Saddam or the Taliban, you can't sincerely expect Al-Qaeda not to ignore them in their quest to hurt America.

	12-03-2004 23:33									#321
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd They where capitalists.

I am a capitalist too.

	12-03-2004 23:34									#322
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I will answer this, but only if you take the time to answer my other previous question.

No. It was a stupid question.

	12-03-2004 23:42									#323
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In a democracy, people get the government they deserve. People are repsonsible for the actions of their government either directly, but voting it in, or indirectly, allowing it to do bad things. If the Spanish peoples really opposed the war, they should have had a general strike to bring down the government.

That's the thinking anyway. I don't buy it.

	12-03-2004 23:42									#324
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I am a capitalist too.

	12-03-2004 23:45									#325
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I am a capitalist too.

You have it coming too then.

	12-03-2004 23:47									#326
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd

Do you buy things? If you buy anything, you're capitalist.

	12-03-2004 23:52									#327
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I will answer this, but only if you take the time to answer my other previous question. OK. International realpolitik usually takes a 'whole country' for responsible of something- or, at least, it has to suppose that the effects on the innocent are meaningless. If you look at what the American sanctions did to Iraq,

the sanctions that specifically excluded food and medicine? That allowed oil to be sold to get money for food, funds that were diverted by the Iraqi regime to palaces and weaponry?

an attack on afghanistan in which a greater attempt was made to avoid collateral damage than in most priot wars?

An attack on a pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan that was genuinely believed to be plant where chemical weapons were being produced.

Lets review - international law makes it a crime to INTENTIONALLY kill civilians.

The US did not intentionally kill civilians in any of the incidents you mention, and so this would not be a valid reason for attacking the US. Period. Al fortiori it would not be a reason for attacking civilians.

Thanks for exposing yourself for what you really are.

	12-03-2004 23:55									#328
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Do you buy things? If you buy anything, you're capitalist.

WRONG! You are a capitalist if, and only if, you own productive capital. Most of us in the captialist world are proles.

	12-03-2004 23:55									#329
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In a democracy, people get the government they deserve. People are repsonsible for the actions of their government either directly, but voting it in, or indirectly, allowing it to do bad things. If the Spanish peoples really opposed the war, they should have had a general strike to bring down the government. That's the thinking anyway. I don't buy it.

Glad you dont che. The basic impetus behind the argument is to legitimize terrorist acts against citizens of democracies, in a way that allows one to continue to attack unintentional civilian deaths caused by democracies.

	12-03-2004 23:56									#330
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How would the people of Spain feel today about a huge anti-Bush, anti-Israel demonstration by green-flag festooned radical Muslims bearing pictures of Osama bin Laden and Yasser Arafat?