14-03-2004 18:59									#301
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Quick chat with CGN last night.

I think I was asleep on the couch when this one happened

quote: [00:12] Furloaf: I think the turn was sent Trip [00:13] Furloaf: the PTW isdg turn [00:15] Trip: right, got it [00:15] Trip: we're going to play it tomorrow [00:15] Trip: btw, we got and sent turn 5 for the C3C ISDG [00:16] Furloaf: the quit the game poll is now 41.67% to 58.22% [00:16] Furloaf: Cool I saw that [00:17] Furloaf: Takes three more quit votes to reach the 2/3 required [00:18] Trip: hwo much longer on the poll? [00:19] Furloaf: I don't know [00:19] Furloaf: I think I swayed one or two of them [00:21] Trip: cool [00:23] Furloaf: The Agincourt defense poll passed pretty onesided [00:27] Furloaf: to defend it

Looks like some sense maybe sinking back in over there...........

	15-03-2004 12:11									#302
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Looks like some sense maybe sinking back in over there...........

Though, unfortunately they're still making military strategy decisions with by-the-turn quick polls.

	16-03-2004 22:43									#303
	Remove this text

Posted in the CGN Forum, hipefully we can get some answers:

quote: Agincourt and the Loan First of all my apologizes for not being around, I have been traveling since last sunday. miccofl (our new mabaassador from CGN) tried to get ahold of some Apoly guys the other night, but both were idle at the time. My apologizes for not getting you a quick reply. We are currently doing a very quick poll and releasing the loan. Right now it is looking very favorable. We should be able to get you an answer on that very soon. Can someone please explain what you think happened at Agincourt? Based on the intel we had last weekend, when the numbers were run in the combat calculator Agincourt had less than a 20% chance of faling. Was there a bunch of units nearby you did not see? Did you make the decision Not to hold Agincourt? Thanks, and I should be getting back to you on the loan soon

	17-03-2004 06:22									#304
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Summary:
CGN wants the gold now, and indicate that they could use 1800g ... and will take as much as we can give.
We agree to give them 600g.
They agree to repay us at 30gpt.
We allow them to not repay us for 10 turns, to allow them to quickly upgrade all their units.
They agree that they'll gift us workers if for some reason they cannot repay.

--Togas

quote: Arnelos> Arnelos> miccofl, please let me know when you're here Arnelos> Arnelos> We need to clarify the loan issue in order for me to play our turn Arnelos> miccofl> I'm here Arnelos> Arnelos> hey Arnelos> Arnelos> What turn would receiving the loan be most useful to you? Arnelos> miccofl> ASAP Arnelos> Arnelos> Since having the loan money sitting around for GWT to get some of when they capture a city would be bad Arnelos> miccofl> agreed Arnelos> Arnelos> ok, so you plan to spend it on the upgrades immediately if we send THIS turn? Arnelos> miccofl> I am sure almost all would be used on the turn recieved Arnelos> miccofl> let me double check miccofl> ok, confirmed - it would be used on the turn received Arnelos> ok Arnelos> in that case, we can send immediately miccofl> that would be greatly appreciated Togas> miccofl -- there seems to be some confusion ... you want us to tell you want the terms are, we want you to tell us what you want. Togas> to clear things up FOR GOOD. Tell us how much you want and when you want it. miccofl> well you are the ones providing the loan so you should set the terms, it is estimated that it would cost 1800 to upgrade every pikeman we have so anything up to that will be most useful Togas> so you want the most money we are willing to give? miccofl> in a nutshell Togas> assuming we had that much, could you pay it back? miccofl> so long as we don't die miccofl> wish we could trade, we have wines and spices Togas> If you guys do happen to lose the war, we'll work something out miccofl> slave labor eh? Togas> perhaps tech or workers or something, but we'll get to that later. miccofl> my beer is empty, brb Togas> right now my domestic guys say we can give you 600g. If we gave you that much, how long would you need to pay it back? Assuming you won, of course. miccofl> give me a few on that Togas> sure Togas> we're not going to charge any interest, of course. We'll also continue to give you guys advice, if you're OK with that. miccofl> ok by me on that Togas> we want to help you guys, and this is the best way, I think, we can help Togas> but our team does hope that we can be repaid someday. miccofl> the simplest way would be to set up a 30 gpt and let the game do the work Togas> can you guys afford that? miccofl> that would leave about 110/pt for upgrades until tech is raised miccofl> right now we are researching nothing miccofl> well Chemistry but no research is happining miccofl> *happening Togas> true Arnelos> set 1 scientist Arnelos> in some backwater city Togas> we can agree to this. I just want to make sure that it'll work for you guys. Togas> we give 600g. You give 30gpt Togas> ? miccofl> I think it is fair miccofl> unless you wanted to wait a preset number of turns before we begin repayment Togas> that's something I was pondering, too Arnelos> miccofl - will that hurt your ability to upgrade more pikes, though? Togas> we could set off the repayment for later miccofl> from what I see we are taking in 146 per turn miccofl> it would take 1/2 upgrade per turn away for being able to do 10 now Togas> at that rate, you should be able to cover all your upgrades in less than 10 turns Togas> we could agree to start repayment in 10 turns, perhaps miccofl> you tell us, you are giving us a loan and we are going to pay it back - just say when Togas> 10 turns from now is perfectly OK with us. If worse comes to worse and you cannot repay and continue fighting (you need gold for rushes), we will also agree to accept workers from you. miccofl> if we set it up as 30pt there is only one way to end it before 20 turns are gone - we really don't want to go there miccofl> now if we are about to die then yes, we would gladly give you the workers Togas> sounds good Togas> we will gift to you 600g next turn Togas> 10 turns later, you will gift us 30gpt miccofl> agreed Arnelos> next turn or THIS turn? miccofl> I am assuming this turn for you - we get it next turn Arnelos> I'm about to play the turn... this is why I wanted this chat NOW Togas> let's do this ASAP Togas> this turn miccofl> yes Togas> excellent. I'm going to put in the order right now

	17-03-2004 09:33									#305
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Another CGN chat.

It was mainly to let CGN blow off some steam, and for BF and I to do another pep talk

It just "felt right" so I brought up the "turtle and come to our continent" issue, IF all goes bad.

I stressed the IF

quote: [22:26] <@SL3> sorry Bigfree but that is very close to what I wanted with retreating from Agincourt and keeping our knights for offense and not sacraficing them for defense agian [22:27] <@SL3> what is the use of building units that are worthless [22:27] Yes, I know, but who knew they would beat the odds. [22:27] <@SL3> oops sorry wrong thread [22:27] You mean Knights? [22:27] oh, ok [22:27] <@SL3> yes we have sacraficed around 25 knights for nothing and have yet to attack [22:28] You did attack once already [22:28] that stack of 9 Ansar [22:28] what happened to those Knights? were they a part of the group that returned and defended Agincourt? [22:29] <@SL3> nope [22:29] <@SL3> we did not attack the stack of 9 ansars with our knights [22:29] <@SL3> that is my whole point [22:29] Hmm [22:29] You had Knights in Boston? [22:31] <@SL3> Two turns ago when I was lobbying to retreat, which would have forced the webs to wait 5-6 turns until they could attack with their full force or to send their ansars ahead alone and give our 11-13 knights first strike Furloaf, btb and Trip convinced everyone that we could defend and hold Aginicourt using our knights [22:31] <@SL3> and we DID NOT [22:31] <@SL3> and now we have no defense [22:32] <@SL3> because all the dam roads are still in place and we have no knights to counter attack [22:32] <@SL3> sorry but I'm mad [22:32] [22:32] I understand the frustration [22:33] I also felt that defending Agincourt was important, just because of it's location. [22:33] <@SL3> we could have done the SAME with your current propasal [22:33] <@SL3> which was my same proposal [22:33] If it had held one more turn, you would have been iin the clear. [22:34] <@SL3> but giving us 5-6 turns to get musket to defend and not knights [22:34] <@SL3> but that is the point it would not hold [22:34] So, you would have disbanded Agincourt? [22:34] <@SL3> the webs are not stupid they can count [22:34] <@SL3> our pikes were still 1 turn away [22:35] <@SL3> and we had only knights that could reach and defend [22:35] <@SL3> yes I would have disbanded Agincourt and destroyed all the roads [22:35] How did GWT beat the odds? [22:35] <@SL3> why give them a 8 pop city to stage an offense from [22:35] Were there more ansrs then we could see? [22:36] i'M STILL SHOCKED THAT THEY WERE ABLE TO TAKE IT. [22:36] <@SL3> ansars have 3 movement so there could have been another stack out of sight [22:36] **** [22:36] sorry for the caps [22:36] <@SL3> which was another one of my points [22:36] <@SL3> my defense was based on facts [22:36] <@SL3> not whar we didnt know [22:36] We were told only 29 Ansars could attack, we assumed a recon mission had taken place. [22:36] <@SL3> or not what we couldnt control [22:37] <@SL3> there was 31 when I counted [22:37] well, that does skew things then [22:37] after the attack? [22:37] 31 after he attack/ [22:37] no, before [22:37] <@SL3> 31 before the attack [22:37] they have no idea how many now [22:37] <@SL3> only saw one after the attack [22:37] <@SL3> and it is dead [22:38] [22:38] Well, you will be geting 600 gold this turn to help out. [22:39] <@SL3> Thank you for the gold but once again we could be 1 turn to late [22:39] <@miccofl> as near as I can tell they attacked with 30 Ansar [22:39] <@SL3> we needed to upgrade last turn so we could fortify this turn [22:39] <@SL3> now we can upgrade but none of those units will be fortified if the webs attack [22:40] In the Fort city above waterloo you mean? [22:40] <@SL3> all cities [22:40] How could they attack this turn? [22:40] They had to take big losses to get Agincourt [22:41] <@SL3> we were only able to upgrade a few pikes last turn 3 I think and they will be in the fort next to waterloo [22:41] I would think you have all your Pikes in Perris now, right? [22:41] <@SL3> 20 in perris [22:41] <@SL3> 5 on the hill [22:41] <@SL3> 5 in waterloo [22:41] GWT will not attack this turn [22:41] they HAD to have taken heavy losses, at least very injured units [22:41] <@SL3> That is correct [22:42] <@SL3> but they could attack the following turn [22:42] And they had to have more than 31 ansar [22:42] <@SL3> and we have to upgrade this turn [22:42] <@SL3> which means they will not be fortiifed [22:42] I think they will advance from now on with the slow movers into your terr [22:42] <@SL3> LOL [22:42] But, forted by next turn, which is fine [22:42] <@SL3> That is what btb said about Agincourt [22:43] Well, they did, sort of, they had 10 Pikes with the Ansars [22:43] <@SL3> nope [22:43] <@SL3> those pikes were dropped off by the galleys [22:43] I was told there were ~10 pikes in that stack of Ansars [22:43] <@SL3> they did not wait for the slow [22:43] <@SL3> they did not wait for the slow moving stack [22:43] <@SL3> yes there was [22:44] <@SL3> but they didnt wait for them [22:44] all of those pikes could not have come from 3 galleys though [22:44] <@SL3> more like 6 [22:44] <@SL3> they had 3 from both directions [22:44] I guess I'm getting conflicting reports then [22:44] I was under the impression that only 3 Galleys were in the area [22:45] <@SL3> and didnt drop them all off the same turn but had dropped some off earlier [22:45] ah [22:46] Still though, the odds were in your favor to hold Agincourt. You have to admit defending it would have been easier in the future than would be Perris and the tiles around it. [22:46] But, it is gone, so we will have to formulate a new start [22:46] *strat [22:46] <@SL3> if that is true than we should have never adbandon boston or new castle [22:46] <@SL3> because there we had our pikes defending and not knights [22:47] <@SL3> the whole purpose of retreating than was to wait for muskets [22:47] right, the whole gamble was on getting SP and thus muskets. [22:47] <@miccofl> we should never have stood for GCA teleporting to our continent but here we are [22:47] [22:47] <@SL3> and than we did not wait for muskets we defended with knights [22:47] <@SL3> Micco that has nothing to do with our bad tactics [22:48] <@SL3> we retreat when we should fight and we fight when we should retreat [22:48] <@miccofl> but it might with their battle successes [22:48] <@SL3> but I dont want to blame nayone else for our mistakes [22:48] <@SL3> what was done was done [22:48] true, lets just work with what we have now [22:48] <@SL3> and we had to defend [22:49] GWT may be statified for a bit to control one of the choke points [22:49] <@SL3> I apologize to all of you for my attitude [22:49] <@SL3> you are all great [22:50] Thats perfectly ok for you feel this way SL3 [22:50] <@SL3> I'm just frustrtated because I keep losing the polls on how to defend and we keep getting our butts kicked [22:50] Just know that we want to help out in anyway. [22:50] <@SL3> I know but let me let it all out now [22:50] You need some voters? [22:52] <@SL3> 2 turns ago I had soen t several ours figuring the best odds for us to have it all shot to hell by Trips stats and he doesnt even play for our team. I dont blame him becuase he couldnt have all the facts and just wanted to help. I blame our team members for not trusting me and I have proved my self especially when I took over as MoL [22:53] <@miccofl> it does seem that an absolute democracy is not the best plan in all situations [22:53] <@SL3> I didnt have the time to argue all the of Trips stats or to point out all the mistakes or missed possibilities [22:55] <@SL3> Than I;m told by another minster that Apolyton is going to give us gold next turn for upgrades, imagine my surprise when we didnt get any [22:55] sorry for that [22:55] <@SL3> I dont blame Apolyton [22:55] <@miccofl> who told you that? [22:55] <@SL3> I blame us [22:55] <@SL3> Furloaf [22:55] <@SL3> in chat [22:56] <@SL3> the one you just said you didnt want to read [22:57] <@miccofl> I was halfway through and it was giving me a serious headache [22:57] <@SL3> me too [22:57] <@SL3> just thinking about it [22:58] <@miccofl> what was the word I used? cluster**** [22:58] <@SL3> yep [22:58] Well cluster **** or not, now is the time to pull yourselves up by your bootstaraps and move on. [22:59] And just do whatever you can do. [22:59] and we'll start by banning Trip from this channel! [22:59] <@SL3> I f I had the 25 knights we have thrown away I could beat the webs on our turf and hold out a very long time but now I think it is just a matter of time before they slip by [22:59] * @miccofl points out there is no auto-censor in chat [22:59] It is becoming very obvious GWT has been planning this war for a Looooooong time, [23:00] he he [23:00] If they slip by you continue to turtle. [23:01] <@SL3> this was what I consider the 4th najor battle and the webs have won all 4 and I lost all 4 polls [23:01] Make it as painfull as possible. [23:01] <@SL3> of course [23:02] <@SL3> I respected the Frogs for the game they played and can only hope we can do the same against the Webs [23:02] If it gets to that point and notice the key word is if. [23:03] We will arrange a nice cozy spot by us over yonder [23:03] [23:03] <@SL3> LOL [23:03] Then we can continue to cooperate and make sure they dont win. [23:03] <@SL3> Thanks [23:04] We have already discussed it in team in general terms and Apolyton members are in favor. [23:04] <@SL3> that just gave me an ideal as to our GL poll [23:04] Bah, there's a lot of war to fight yet. [23:04] <@SL3> yes [23:05] True [23:05] I did say "if" [23:05] [23:05] :P [23:05] A GL Pol? [23:05] Ilove you too honey [23:05] you guys got a GL? or "If" you get a GL? [23:05] <@SL3> if we get one [23:06] <@SL3> there was a poll as what to do when we get a GL at Agincourt [23:06] yeah, we dreamt of one as well, but GCA never allowed us to attack after th inital assaullt [23:06] <@SL3> true [23:08] I was wondering what would have happened last turn if you had moved all you units out of Agincourt and gifted it to us..... [23:09] <@SL3> If I would have gotten the goahead to destroy the roads and retreat I was going to ask before disbanding but we never got there [23:09] Yeah, I was think GWT may have waited for their lap dogs to step up there. [23:10] <@SL3> that would have been okay for us [23:11] Sure [23:11] We'll have to keep that tactic in mind just in case [23:12] You never know if slowing down GWT for a turn or two will do wonders for CGN [23:12] <@SL3> If we gift you a city and the webs attack it would that put you at war and hurt Apolyton with more WW [23:13] no, we'd get a bonus [23:13] <@SL3> okay [23:13] besides, we are at peace now with GCA [23:14] Because they attack us [23:14] <@SL3> WW is not my speciality [23:14] for 3 turns now [23:14] So, just keep that strat in your mind when thinking of plans [23:14] <@SL3> if they switch gov. does thier WW start over? [23:14] no [23:15] <@SL3> that is what I thought [23:15] WW level wouldn't change, but how their Gov treats that level would [23:15] <@SL3> so they attacked us avery very long time ago.... [23:15] Are they in Republic? [23:15] In order for WW to go up for them dramaticlaly, they need to spend time inside your borders and occupying your cities [23:16] <@SL3> I didnt or havent looked in a while [23:16] Yes, GWT is Rep [23:16] They must be feeling some effects then [23:16] <@SL3> I would think so [23:16] everyone is in a Rep now [23:17] It's likely that their GA is helping to offset the WW [23:17] at least in terms of commerce alloted to happiness [23:18] <@miccofl> their GA is over [23:18] sweet! [23:18] yes very sweet [23:18] <@miccofl> 3 turns now I think [23:21] <@SL3> I need to get ready for work, later all [23:22] <@miccofl> later SL [23:23] * @SL3 has left #isdg-Embassy1

	20-03-2004 15:14									#306
	Put an end to popups!

Quick chat with miccofl of CGN last night:

quote: [22:36] @miccofl> Hello [22:36] @miccofl> http://www.civgaming.net/forums/sho...=&threadid=4554 [22:36] conmcb25> hey [22:36] conmcb25> [22:45] conmcb25> Holy Cow!!!! [22:45] onmcb25> Are you guys going to bring this up to Mongoose? [22:47] conmcb25> I need to go to bed [22:48] conmcb25> Ill post this caht at apoly if its ok with you? [22:48] @miccofl> I suppose I could rub his nose in it - or I could just let him find it on his own; although that might take a day or two [22:48] @miccofl> go ahead [22:48] conmcb25> Ok thanks [22:49] conmcb25> i think he should investigate that last turn [22:49] miccofl> we have already asked for that, no resolution though [22:49] conmcb25> good

The Link he gave me was this conversation:

quote: 03/19 20:32] guess that will have to do [03/19 20:32] Zarn> Hi there [03/19 20:32] SL3_> Hello [03/19 20:32] Zarn> Our president had dinner to attend [03/19 20:33] SL3_> thats okay I havent ate dinner yet [03/19 20:33] Zarn> If you didn't know, I am the Foreign Minister of Fanatikou (for four terms so far). [03/19 20:34] miccofl> good bank account eh? [03/19 20:34]Zarn> [03/19 20:34] SL3_> congrats on all your re-election wins [03/19 20:35] Zarn> Thanks, but they just tie me up and leave me in the office. I don't think I have a choice anymore. [03/19 20:35] * miccofl knows that feeling [03/19 20:36] miccofl> gave it to someone else [03/19 20:36] Zarn> now it is SL's turn [03/19 20:37] Zarn> Well, first thing's first, how are your troops near Perris and Waterloo? [03/19 20:37] SL3_> phone, work [03/19 20:38] Zarn> too bad [03/19 20:38] Zarn> [03/19 20:39] Zarn> I meant that in a friedleir way than it came out [03/19 20:39] Zarn> *friendlier [03/19 20:39] miccofl> I have not been briefed on the tactical situation since I resigned as Premier - we will have to wait on SL [03/19 20:40] * miccofl disconnected his hardwired phone because work called so much [03/19 20:40] they don't get my cell # [03/19 20:41] grrrrrrrrrrr [03/19 20:41] not a good month, week or day [03/19 20:42] they had an emergency depart meeting at 330pm, I get off at 330pm to pick up the kids at school and they made me stay [03/19 20:42] they fired a bunch of people during the meeting [03/19 20:42] my computer is acting stange. I may have to restart. [03/19 20:42] that's awful [03/19 20:42] yeah [03/19 20:43] I wasnt one but it is going to make my job hell for a long while [03/19 20:43] I really dont know what are situation is at perris or waterloo [03/19 20:43] until the next few turns [03/19 20:44] allirght then [03/19 20:44] our next turn should be okay [03/19 20:44] the following turn could be bad [03/19 20:44] but if we can hold just 2-4 turns we can hold for ever [03/19 20:45] do or die I believe [03/19 20:47] *** Signoff: Zarn (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [03/19 20:51] *** Zarn (~jirc@Zarn.Users.irc-chat.net) has joined channel #demogame_CFC_Embassy [03/19 20:51] computers... [03/19 20:51] yep [03/19 20:51] did you get my last few comments before you were disconnected [03/19 20:52] It depends on what they are [03/19 20:52] our next turn should be okay [03/19 20:53] the following turn could be bad [03/19 20:53] but if we can hold just 2-4 turns we can hold for eve [03/19 20:53] ever [03/19 20:53] yeah I saw [03/19 20:53] okay [03/19 20:53] really not much more [03/19 20:53] I said that we hope you do last the 2 to 4 turns [03/19 20:53] thanks [03/19 20:55] CFC could always land a surprise party and try to take a few undefended bases [03/19 20:55] and help take some of the pressure off [03/19 20:55] [03/19 20:55] Our people don't trust galleys enough and neither does Apolyton. [03/19 20:55] We want to help. I can feel other wanting to help though the forums. [03/19 20:55] yeah they seem to sink a lot unless you have LUCK [03/19 20:56] you for got the y [03/19 20:56] [03/19 20:56] No I didnt [03/19 20:56] didnt think I needed it [03/19 20:56] [03/19 20:57] Lucky didn't like me one bit, when I talked to him [03/19 20:57] you are not the only one [03/19 20:59] our embassador didnt get a very good respnse either but I dont remember all the details [03/19 20:59] * miccofl keeps forgetting to enter his name into the auto-censor at CGN [03/19 21:00] What troops does the enemy have (attackers and defenders)? [03/19 21:01] well they have a stack of 50 MI's and Pikes [03/19 21:01] they attacked us with 29-31 ansars, dont know how many are left [03/19 21:01] they have about 10 cats [03/19 21:02] and about 9 galleys [03/19 21:02] and a few more small stacks spread out [03/19 21:02] that is just the Webs [03/19 21:02] GCA also has several small stacks spread out [03/19 21:03] and many galleys [03/19 21:03] looks painful [03/19 21:03] and they continue to switch their cities back and forth to allow troop passage [03/19 21:04] How is your amry/ navy compared to theirs? [03/19 21:04] and we have lost all major battles with very heavy losses compared to ... [03/19 21:04] we were bigger [03/19 21:04] but we continue to lose more than them and when we attack we seem to lose more than them [03/19 21:05] just doesnt seem right [03/19 21:05] that is what happened to CDG [03/19 21:05] they attacked with immortals in the ancient era and lost [03/19 21:06] GCA dfeated them with ease, and GCA was by far weaker [03/19 21:06] yep [03/19 21:06] we are experencing the same thing [03/19 21:07] and if it continues we will be out of this game soon [03/19 21:07] I was told that the odds of them taking Agincourt was 7.5% and they did [03/19 21:07] It is just too strange for something like that to happen twice. [03/19 21:08] indeed [03/19 21:08] I'm in over 40 PBEM games and have never had that kind of success [03/19 21:08] me too, other than the time I beat your rifleman army with a single sipahi [03/19 21:09] usually 1-2 spearmen will hold out against 4-8 attackers while defending but never had the attackers when with those kind of odds [03/19 21:09] very true micco but you also lost a **** load of troops attack at other times [03/19 21:10] I don't think these guys understand the concept that this is a game. Something is up. [03/19 21:10] that's a fact [03/19 21:10] so to get lucky and win one is okay [03/19 21:10] we know something is up, what can we do about it though? [03/19 21:11] The only way we beat GCA was overwhemlming power and being on offense the enire time. [03/19 21:12] We can't do anything right now [03/19 21:12] this is where me and Micco argue, I prefer to do nothing about it and just be a good loser but Micco had to represent all our members who were not so understanding and many have quit [03/19 21:12] that is a very tough job being in the middle [03/19 21:12] * Chieftess is back after 3h10m: auto-away after 30m idle [03/19 21:12] I understand [03/19 21:13] my options were hold the game until we backed up before GCA teleported or resign - in the interests of the game I resigned [03/19 21:13] yeah you did the right thing [03/19 21:14] but you also got a bad rap at the UN when all you were doing was representing your team [03/19 21:14] but it isnt fair [03/19 21:14] So, how goes things? [03/19 21:14] not good [03/19 21:14] you have done more than anybody for our team [03/19 21:15] that's my job [03/19 21:16] Chieftness all I can say is I will fight to the end [03/19 21:16] how long I dont know [03/19 21:16] we have a new minister of Defense so who knows maybe our luck will change [03/19 21:16] GameCatcher up to their tricks again? :s [03/19 21:17] I really want to wipe the smirk off of Lucky's face as well as GWT's... [03/19 21:17] yes [03/19 21:17] they taught their nefarious magic to their ally [03/19 21:17] There has GOT to be a way to check reloads in MP... [03/19 21:18] I'm also concerned about the C3C demo game [03/19 21:19] Yeah, I wonder if they will bring their stench over to that game too [03/19 21:20] and with Lucky's cronie running C3B [03/19 21:20] I know GCA is there, but I hope they wise up. [03/19 21:20] when we play the turn every one has it open and we move the units 1 at a time as a team, so there is no way anyone can cheat unless the whole team decides to cheat [03/19 21:20] I wonder how GCA plays the turn [03/19 21:21] BigFree told me, but I don't think I shall repeat it [03/19 21:21] [03/19 21:21] Even if the whole GCA team played, I wouldn't doubt it if they all were in on it. [03/19 21:21] hmm? [03/19 21:21] my point is, either they are very very lucky, 1 perosn cheats or the whole team is cheating [03/19 21:22] Too bad I already have an account over there... I'd investigate if I could. [03/19 21:22] if it is the whole team than I dont even want to play in the CsC game [03/19 21:22] I think it is more than one person [03/19 21:22] C3C [03/19 21:23] There may be a few innocents [03/19 21:24] what if they are using a turn editor? [03/19 21:25] never heard of it [03/19 21:25] May I assume that it edits turns? [03/19 21:26] yes [03/19 21:26] we ran into a player that had unbelievable luck, rolled over everybody, built every wonder [03/19 21:27] I can't believe mongose let these guys play C3C [03/19 21:27] really? [03/19 21:27] *mongoose [03/19 21:27] after donating my entire civilization to another plaer the "lucky one" had just about rolled over everbody but in a discussion he slipped up and admitted to using an editor to view turns [03/19 21:28] he hasn't been seen since [03/19 21:29] another thing is we have no way of knowing which version the other teams are playing on [03/19 21:29] Must be lucky's twin [03/19 21:30] different versions had different bugs [03/19 21:30] all versions for some time have been cross compatable [03/19 21:32] exscuse me for a moment [03/19 21:32] it might be worthwhile to ask for an arbitrator's review of the game - ask a forum independent of the game to look at all the saves and request logs [03/19 21:34] Kids are getting on my nerves so I'm going to have to go. Micco has full power for any negotiations if something comes up. Plus I need sleep. Nice meeting all of you and later all. [03/19 21:34] That would be a good idea. [03/19 21:34] Have someone look at their logs. [03/19 21:35] I'll ask Ainwood if it's possible to look at reload times in a MP game. [03/19 21:35] *** SL3_ has left #demogame_cfc_embassy [03/19 21:36] hmm, was "preserve random seed" on/ [03/19 21:37] I don't know [03/19 21:37] I believe it was supposed to be on [03/19 21:46] is there anything you need to ask us? [03/19 21:47] you know what? [03/19 21:47] I just tested a MP save with C3MT... [03/19 21:47] It *IS* possible to edit the save if you know the admin password. [03/19 21:47] and the admin password (due to bugs in PTW that allow you to play it as a normal game - thus giving you an autosave) isn't encrypted. [03/19 21:48] So, if I had "CFC" as the admin password, they could see that with a hex editor. [03/19 21:48] So, the save could potentially be compremised [03/19 21:48] good work [03/19 21:49] You can even see treaties, too! [03/19 21:49] crikey [03/19 21:49] talk about a loophole [03/19 21:51] This isn't good... you can export the entire thing to a scenario! [03/19 21:51] Are you still there, Miccofl? [03/19 21:51] white-knuckled [03/19 21:51] That's not good at all. [03/19 21:52] hmm, there's a line that says, "This game has been continued... X times" [03/19 21:53] You can see what the players/teams are researching, too. [03/19 21:53] Want to give yourself a tech? Sure! Go right ahead! EXPLOIT CITY! [03/19 21:54] what about units? [03/19 21:54] You can add and delete them too [03/19 21:54] !!! [03/19 21:54] I sure hope GCA isn't using C3MT... [03/19 21:55] That could explain alot... [03/19 21:55] a whole lot [03/19 21:55] Did the units win without any HP lost? [03/19 21:55] and 100% of the time? [03/19 21:55] the next turn. [03/19 21:56] I am sure they lost units and took damage, or they would be rolling still [03/19 21:56] but if you can add a unit, then you can edit it's stats right? [03/19 21:57] maybe make it look more realistic [03/19 21:57] start with 20, add 60, do battle, make it look good [03/19 21:57] We should post this in both our forums and notify Apolyton. We can go from there. [03/19 21:57] agreed [03/19 21:58] yeah. I do know that using the C3MT changes an unused flag in vanilla and PTW [03/19 21:58] but, it's used in C3C... [03/19 21:58] The thing is how would GCA lose their original territory? [03/19 21:59] What do you mean? [03/19 21:59] They abandoned their cities, right? [03/19 21:59] I know, but why if they could have won? [03/19 22:00] perhaps they flet th jig was up and it was time to find a new marque [03/19 22:00] *felt the [03/19 22:00] Or, maybe they only did it when they attacked. [03/19 22:00] i.e., we could attack their units, and they knew they couldn't add any units. [03/19 22:01] But, if they're asked for a log, how do we know they won't say, "We don't keep logs", or if they made one up. [03/19 22:01] so they would have no choice but to retreat to the other continent. I see now. [03/19 22:01] see, that is why we granted mongoose201 access to our private area [03/19 22:01] he sees it all, we have nothing to hide [03/19 22:02] he has sat in on our turn chats [03/19 22:02] let them do that [03/19 22:02] He should be granted access to ALL games. [03/19 22:02] I agree [03/19 22:02] I concur [03/19 22:02] At MZO, Oct, I and another person have access to all the forums to make sure no one's doing anything fishy. [03/19 22:03] Granted, I can't read Spanish... [03/19 22:03] or much of French [03/19 22:03] I just hope that, if he does get access, GCA doesn't destroy the evidence before he arrives. [03/19 22:04] same here [03/19 22:04] Does he have an account on Gamecatcher? If not, he could make a new one, and "join" the GCA game undercover. [03/19 22:05] Wouldn't they know it was him, anyway? [03/19 22:05] if they checked IP's [03/19 22:06] Do they have his IP? He'd also need a different nick, too. [03/19 22:06] They wouldn't know it's him if... [03/19 22:06] 1. They don't have his IP [03/19 22:06] 2. He picks a different nick [03/19 22:06] 3. He doesn't soundl like mongoose [03/19 22:06] *sound like [03/19 22:06] i.e., different grammar. [03/19 22:07] misspell alot - just for spite [03/19 22:07] and pretend to not know how to play [03/19 22:07] For example, I capitalize, use correct punctuation, and if I use a smilely, it's after a period. [03/19 22:08] and I know what I'm doing. [03/19 22:08] so the oppsite wud be like this [03/19 22:08] :-D [03/19 22:08] mongoose is a bit more random

So Ill let the conspiracy theory zealots take over the discussion from here

	20-03-2004 17:50									#307
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Here is an edited version of the same chat. < are removed and > are replaced by :

quote: Quick chat with miccofl of CGN last night: quote: [22:36] @miccofl: Hello [22:36] @miccofl: http://www.civgaming.net/forums/sho...=&threadid=4554 [22:36] conmcb25: hey [22:36] conmcb25: [22:45] conmcb25: Holy Cow!!!! [22:45] onmcb25: Are you guys going to bring this up to Mongoose? [22:47] conmcb25: I need to go to bed [22:48] conmcb25: Ill post this caht at apoly if its ok with you? [22:48] @miccofl: I suppose I could rub his nose in it - or I could just let him find it on his own; although that might take a day or two [22:48] @miccofl: go ahead [22:48] conmcb25: Ok thanks [22:49] conmcb25: i think he should investigate that last turn [22:49] miccofl: we have already asked for that, no resolution though [22:49] conmcb25: good The Link he gave me was this conversation: quote: 03/19 20:32] SL3_: guess that will have to do [03/19 20:32] Zarn: Hi there [03/19 20:32] SL3_: Hello [03/19 20:32] Zarn: Our president had dinner to attend [03/19 20:33] SL3_: thats okay I havent ate dinner yet [03/19 20:33] Zarn: If you didn't know, I am the Foreign Minister of Fanatikou (for four terms so far). [03/19 20:34] miccofl: good bank account eh? [03/19 20:34]Zarn: [03/19 20:34] SL3_: congrats on all your re-election wins [03/19 20:35] Zarn: Thanks, but they just tie me up and leave me in the office. I don't think I have a choice anymore. [03/19 20:35] * miccofl knows that feeling [03/19 20:36] miccofl: gave it to someone else [03/19 20:36] Zarn: now it is SL's turn [03/19 20:37] Zarn: Well, first thing's first, how are your troops near Perris and Waterloo? [03/19 20:37] SL3_: phone, work [03/19 20:38] Zarn: too bad [03/19 20:38] Zarn: [03/19 20:39] Zarn: I meant that in a friedleir way than it came out [03/19 20:39] Zarn: *friendlier [03/19 20:39] miccofl: I have not been briefed on the tactical situation since I resigned as Premier - we will have to wait on SL [03/19 20:40] * miccofl disconnected his hardwired phone because work called so much [03/19 20:40] miccofl: they don't get my cell # [03/19 20:41] SL3_: grrrrrrrrrrr [03/19 20:41] SL3_: not a good month, week or day [03/19 20:42] SL3_: they had an emergency depart meeting at 330pm, I get off at 330pm to pick up the kids at school and they made me stay [03/19 20:42] SL3_: they fired a bunch of people during the meeting [03/19 20:42] Zarn: my computer is acting stange. I may have to restart. [03/19 20:42] Zarn: that's awful [03/19 20:42] SL3_: yeah [03/19 20:43] SL3_: I wasnt one but it is going to make my job hell for a long while [03/19 20:43] SL3_: I really dont know what are situation is at perris or waterloo [03/19 20:43] SL3_: until the next few turns [03/19 20:44] Zarn: allirght then [03/19 20:44] SL3_: our next turn should be okay [03/19 20:44] SL3_: the following turn could be bad [03/19 20:44] SL3_: but if we can hold just 2-4 turns we can hold for ever [03/19 20:45] SL3_: do or die I believe [03/19 20:47] *** Signoff: Zarn (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [03/19 20:51] *** Zarn (~jirc@Zarn.Users.irc-chat.net) has joined channel #demogame_CFC_Embassy [03/19 20:51] Zarn: computers... [03/19 20:51] SL3_: yep [03/19 20:51] SL3_: did you get my last few comments before you were disconnected [03/19 20:52] Zarn: It depends on what they are [03/19 20:52] SL3_: our next turn should be okay [03/19 20:53] SL3_: the following turn could be bad [03/19 20:53] SL3_: but if we can hold just 2-4 turns we can hold for eve [03/19 20:53] SL3_: ever [03/19 20:53] Zarn: yeah I saw [03/19 20:53] SL3_: okay [03/19 20:53] SL3_: really not much more [03/19 20:53] Zarn: I said that we hope you do last the 2 to 4 turns [03/19 20:53] SL3_: thanks [03/19 20:55] SL3_: CFC could always land a surprise party and try to take a few undefended bases [03/19 20:55] SL3_: and help take some of the pressure off [03/19 20:55] SL3_: [03/19 20:55] Zarn: Our people don't trust galleys enough and neither does Apolyton. [03/19 20:55] Zarn: We want to help. I can feel other wanting to help though the forums. [03/19 20:55] SL3_: yeah they seem to sink a lot unless you have LUCK [03/19 20:56] miccofl: you for got the y [03/19 20:56] SL3_: [03/19 20:56] SL3_: No I didnt [03/19 20:56] SL3_: didnt think I needed it [03/19 20:56] Zarn: [03/19 20:57] Zarn: Lucky didn't like me one bit, when I talked to him [03/19 20:57] SL3_: you are not the only one [03/19 20:59] SL3_: our embassador didnt get a very good respnse either but I dont remember all the details [03/19 20:59] * miccofl keeps forgetting to enter his name into the auto-censor at CGN [03/19 21:00] Zarn: What troops does the enemy have (attackers and defenders)? [03/19 21:01] SL3_: well they have a stack of 50 MI's and Pikes [03/19 21:01] SL3_: they attacked us with 29-31 ansars, dont know how many are left [03/19 21:01] SL3_: they have about 10 cats [03/19 21:02] SL3_: and about 9 galleys [03/19 21:02] SL3_: and a few more small stacks spread out [03/19 21:02] SL3_: that is just the Webs [03/19 21:02] SL3_: GCA also has several small stacks spread out [03/19 21:03] SL3_: and many galleys [03/19 21:03] Zarn: looks painful [03/19 21:03] SL3_: and they continue to switch their cities back and forth to allow troop passage [03/19 21:04] Zarn: How is your amry/ navy compared to theirs? [03/19 21:04] SL3_: and we have lost all major battles with very heavy losses compared to ... [03/19 21:04] SL3_: we were bigger [03/19 21:04] SL3_: but we continue to lose more than them and when we attack we seem to lose more than them [03/19 21:05] SL3_: just doesnt seem right [03/19 21:05] Zarn: that is what happened to CDG [03/19 21:05] Zarn: they attacked with immortals in the ancient era and lost [03/19 21:06] Zarn: GCA dfeated them with ease, and GCA was by far weaker [03/19 21:06] SL3_: yep [03/19 21:06] SL3_: we are experencing the same thing [03/19 21:07] SL3_: and if it continues we will be out of this game soon [03/19 21:07] SL3_: I was told that the odds of them taking Agincourt was 7.5% and they did [03/19 21:07] Zarn: It is just too strange for something like that to happen twice. [03/19 21:08] miccofl: indeed [03/19 21:08] SL3_: I'm in over 40 PBEM games and have never had that kind of success [03/19 21:08] miccofl: me too, other than the time I beat your rifleman army with a single sipahi [03/19 21:09] SL3_: usually 1-2 spearmen will hold out against 4-8 attackers while defending but never had the attackers when with those kind of odds [03/19 21:09] SL3_: very true micco but you also lost a **** load of troops attack at other times [03/19 21:10] Zarn: I don't think these guys understand the concept that this is a game. Something is up. [03/19 21:10] miccofl: that's a fact [03/19 21:10] SL3_: so to get lucky and win one is okay [03/19 21:10] miccofl: we know something is up, what can we do about it though? [03/19 21:11] Zarn: The only way we beat GCA was overwhemlming power and being on offense the enire time. [03/19 21:12] Zarn: We can't do anything right now [03/19 21:12] SL3_: this is where me and Micco argue, I prefer to do nothing about it and just be a good loser but Micco had to represent all our members who were not so understanding and many have quit [03/19 21:12] SL3_: that is a very tough job being in the middle [03/19 21:12] * Chieftess is back after 3h10m: auto-away after 30m idle [03/19 21:12] Zarn: I understand [03/19 21:13] miccofl: my options were hold the game until we backed up before GCA teleported or resign - in the interests of the game I resigned [03/19 21:13] SL3_: yeah you did the right thing [03/19 21:14] SL3_: but you also got a bad rap at the UN when all you were doing was representing your team [03/19 21:14] SL3_: but it isnt fair [03/19 21:14] Chieftess: So, how goes things? [03/19 21:14] Zarn: not good [03/19 21:14] SL3_: you have done more than anybody for our team [03/19 21:15] miccofl: that's my job [03/19 21:16] SL3_: Chieftness all I can say is I will fight to the end [03/19 21:16] SL3_: how long I dont know [03/19 21:16] SL3_: we have a new minister of Defense so who knows maybe our luck will change [03/19 21:16] Chieftess: GameCatcher up to their tricks again? :s [03/19 21:17] Zarn: I really want to wipe the smirk off of Lucky's face as well as GWT's... [03/19 21:17] SL3_: yes [03/19 21:17] miccofl: they taught their nefarious magic to their ally [03/19 21:17] Chieftess: There has GOT to be a way to check reloads in MP... [03/19 21:18] SL3_: I'm also concerned about the C3C demo game [03/19 21:19] Zarn: Yeah, I wonder if they will bring their stench over to that game too [03/19 21:20] miccofl: and with Lucky's cronie running C3B [03/19 21:20] Zarn: I know GCA is there, but I hope they wise up. [03/19 21:20] SL3_: when we play the turn every one has it open and we move the units 1 at a time as a team, so there is no way anyone can cheat unless the whole team decides to cheat [03/19 21:20] SL3_: I wonder how GCA plays the turn [03/19 21:21] miccofl: BigFree told me, but I don't think I shall repeat it [03/19 21:21] miccofl: [03/19 21:21] Zarn: Even if the whole GCA team played, I wouldn't doubt it if they all were in on it. [03/19 21:21] Chieftess: hmm? [03/19 21:21] SL3_: my point is, either they are very very lucky, 1 perosn cheats or the whole team is cheating [03/19 21:22] Chieftess: Too bad I already have an account over there... I'd investigate if I could. [03/19 21:22] SL3_: if it is the whole team than I dont even want to play in the CsC game [03/19 21:22] Zarn: I think it is more than one person [03/19 21:22] SL3_: C3C [03/19 21:23] Zarn: There may be a few innocents [03/19 21:24] miccofl: what if they are using a turn editor? [03/19 21:25] Zarn: never heard of it [03/19 21:25] Zarn: May I assume that it edits turns? [03/19 21:26] miccofl: yes [03/19 21:26] miccofl: we ran into a player that had unbelievable luck, rolled over everybody, built every wonder [03/19 21:27] Zarn: I can't believe mongose let these guys play C3C [03/19 21:27] Zarn: really? [03/19 21:27] Zarn: *mongoose [03/19 21:27] miccofl: after donating my entire civilization to another plaer the "lucky one" had just about rolled over everbody but in a discussion he slipped up and admitted to using an editor to view turns [03/19 21:28] miccofl: he hasn't been seen since [03/19 21:29] miccofl: another thing is we have no way of knowing which version the other teams are playing on [03/19 21:29] Zarn: Must be lucky's twin [03/19 21:30] miccofl: different versions had different bugs [03/19 21:30] miccofl: all versions for some time have been cross compatable [03/19 21:32] Zarn: exscuse me for a moment [03/19 21:32] miccofl: it might be worthwhile to ask for an arbitrator's review of the game - ask a forum independent of the game to look at all the saves and request logs [03/19 21:34] SL3_: Kids are getting on my nerves so I'm going to have to go. Micco has full power for any negotiations if something comes up. Plus I need sleep. Nice meeting all of you and later all. [03/19 21:34] Chieftess: That would be a good idea. [03/19 21:34] Chieftess: Have someone look at their logs. [03/19 21:35] Chieftess: I'll ask Ainwood if it's possible to look at reload times in a MP game. [03/19 21:35] *** SL3_ has left #demogame_cfc_embassy [03/19 21:36] Chieftess: hmm, was "preserve random seed" on/ [03/19 21:37] Zarn: I don't know [03/19 21:37] miccofl: I believe it was supposed to be on [03/19 21:46] Zarn: is there anything you need to ask us? [03/19 21:47] Chieftess: you know what? [03/19 21:47] Chieftess: I just tested a MP save with C3MT... [03/19 21:47] Chieftess: It *IS* possible to edit the save if you know the admin password. [03/19 21:47] Chieftess: and the admin password (due to bugs in PTW that allow you to play it as a normal game - thus giving you an autosave) isn't encrypted. [03/19 21:48] Chieftess: So, if I had "CFC" as the admin password, they could see that with a hex editor. [03/19 21:48] Chieftess: So, the save could potentially be compremised [03/19 21:48] Zarn: good work [03/19 21:49] Chieftess: You can even see treaties, too! [03/19 21:49] Zarn: crikey [03/19 21:49] Zarn: talk about a loophole [03/19 21:51] Chieftess: This isn't good... you can export the entire thing to a scenario! [03/19 21:51] Zarn: Are you still there, Miccofl? [03/19 21:51] miccofl: white-knuckled [03/19 21:51] Zarn: That's not good at all. [03/19 21:52] Chieftess: hmm, there's a line that says, "This game has been continued... X times" [03/19 21:53] Chieftess: You can see what the players/teams are researching, too. [03/19 21:53] Chieftess: Want to give yourself a tech? Sure! Go right ahead! EXPLOIT CITY! [03/19 21:54] miccofl: what about units? [03/19 21:54] Chieftess: You can add and delete them too [03/19 21:54] Chieftess: !!! [03/19 21:54] Chieftess: I sure hope GCA isn't using C3MT... [03/19 21:55] Zarn: That could explain alot... [03/19 21:55] miccofl: a whole lot [03/19 21:55] Chieftess: Did the units win without any HP lost? [03/19 21:55] Chieftess: and 100% of the time? [03/19 21:55] Chieftess: the next turn. [03/19 21:56] miccofl: I am sure they lost units and took damage, or they would be rolling still [03/19 21:56] miccofl: but if you can add a unit, then you can edit it's stats right? [03/19 21:57] Zarn: maybe make it look more realistic [03/19 21:57] miccofl: start with 20, add 60, do battle, make it look good [03/19 21:57] Zarn: We should post this in both our forums and notify Apolyton. We can go from there. [03/19 21:57] miccofl: agreed [03/19 21:58] Chieftess: yeah. I do know that using the C3MT changes an unused flag in vanilla and PTW [03/19 21:58] Chieftess: but, it's used in C3C... [03/19 21:58] Zarn: The thing is how would GCA lose their original territory? [03/19 21:59] Chieftess: What do you mean? [03/19 21:59] Chieftess: They abandoned their cities, right? [03/19 21:59] Zarn: I know, but why if they could have won? [03/19 22:00] miccofl: perhaps they flet th jig was up and it was time to find a new marque [03/19 22:00] miccofl: *felt the [03/19 22:00] Chieftess: Or, maybe they only did it when they attacked. [03/19 22:00] Chieftess: i.e., we could attack their units, and they knew they couldn't add any units. [03/19 22:01] Chieftess: But, if they're asked for a log, how do we know they won't say, "We don't keep logs", or if they made one up. [03/19 22:01] Zarn: so they would have no choice but to retreat to the other continent. I see now. [03/19 22:01] miccofl: see, that is why we granted mongoose201 access to our private area [03/19 22:01] miccofl: he sees it all, we have nothing to hide [03/19 22:02] miccofl: he has sat in on our turn chats [03/19 22:02] miccofl: let them do that [03/19 22:02] Chieftess: He should be granted access to ALL games. [03/19 22:02] miccofl: I agree [03/19 22:02] Zarn: I concur [03/19 22:02] Chieftess: At MZO, Oct, I and another person have access to all the forums to make sure no one's doing anything fishy. [03/19 22:03] Chieftess: Granted, I can't read Spanish... [03/19 22:03] Chieftess: or much of French [03/19 22:03] Chieftess: I just hope that, if he does get access, GCA doesn't destroy the evidence before he arrives. [03/19 22:04] Zarn: same here [03/19 22:04] Chieftess: Does he have an account on Gamecatcher? If not, he could make a new one, and "join" the GCA game undercover. [03/19 22:05] Zarn: Wouldn't they know it was him, anyway? [03/19 22:05] miccofl: if they checked IP's [03/19 22:06] Chieftess: Do they have his IP? He'd also need a different nick, too. [03/19 22:06] Chieftess: They wouldn't know it's him if... [03/19 22:06] Chieftess: 1. They don't have his IP [03/19 22:06] Chieftess: 2. He picks a different nick [03/19 22:06] Chieftess: 3. He doesn't soundl like mongoose [03/19 22:06] Chieftess: *sound like [03/19 22:06] Chieftess: i.e., different grammar. [03/19 22:07] miccofl: misspell alot - just for spite [03/19 22:07] Zarn: and pretend to not know how to play [03/19 22:07] Chieftess: For example, I capitalize, use correct punctuation, and if I use a smilely, it's after a period. [03/19 22:08] Chieftess: and I know what I'm doing. [03/19 22:08] Chieftess: so the oppsite wud be like this [03/19 22:08] Chieftess: :-D [03/19 22:08] miccofl: mongoose is a bit more random So Ill let the conspiracy theory zealots take over the discussion from here

Aidun

	24-03-2004 23:54									#308
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I had a chat with miccofl last night it was short and mostly just BSing but to pertinent peices of info that came out were:


1. They definately recieved the gold this time.

2. There team is down to 5 or 6 players who actually contribute

	04-04-2004 22:04									#309
	Chat with Miccofl, Con & Myself about CGN's 520AD turn and war Put an end to popups!

I moved this here from the CGN FA thread and put a link and summery there.

Summery
- Perris has fallen!
- They had needed about 280 Gold to upgrade Horses to Knights but didn't have it
- Talked to them about Selling off Improvements, especially Unneeded Culture/Science ones, like Libraries.
- Found out they have 15 Libs. This would NET them 150 Gold and 15 extra GPT if sold off.
- Micco now autherized to draw up a plan to try to get galleys across to us with Settlers/Mil Units, talked about Probibilities of crossing.
- Told Micco about our plan to gift them a city and when it will first be available.
- Does CGN have some plan with CFC about relocation, because that had come up, but we told him that we didn't know about anything there, but the city we were offering was strictly our plan.
- Miccofl Surprised at the Luck of GWT/GCA, but part of that (IMHO) is just their inept Military planning and executiion.

quote: [19:44] [miccofl> I must go, the turn must go on and they need a third [19:44] [E_T> You playing now? [19:45] [miccofl> I think so [19:46] [E_T> good, just smacked a sleeping Consul in our Private room, so he knows that we might get it soon [19:46] [E_T> any word on Perris? [19:47] [miccofl> fell [19:49] [miccofl> there was talk about upgrading some horsemen to knights, but I think we are about 280 short [19:54] * conmcb25 has joined #isdg-Embassy1 [19:54] [E_T> and our Ambassidor to CGN has arrived [19:55] hey micco sorry to here about Perris [19:56] [@miccofl> $hit happens [19:57] [E_T> No, feces occurs [19:58] [conmcb25> that too [19:58] [E_T> [20:01] [@miccofl> Really sucks that the member who's city that is has gone to the Gulf for a second tour,,, [20:01] [conmcb25> Is there anyway to get a Fort up on that hill between Perris and Columbus? [20:01] [conmcb25> Sorry to hear about that [20:02] [@miccofl> slim to noe on the fort [20:02] [@miccofl> none [20:02] [conmcb25> Dam [20:02] [conmcb25> Have you guys considered selling off some improvements? [20:02] [conmcb25> Like libraries? [20:02] [@miccofl> Hoovers would be nice about now [20:03] [conmcb25> So would the Manhatten project [20:04] [E_T> Yah, a nuke would take care of that SoD [20:04] [conmcb25> If a city is aways away from a culture increase you might as well sell em. [20:04] [@miccofl> You know, I am really glad Trip chose to be on our team in the C3C. Now he has an idea of what I am up against and I have an ally to say NOOOOOOOoooooooo [20:04] [conmcb25> They aren't doing any good for research right now anyway. [20:04] [conmcb25> Good [20:05] [E_T> what do you mean by that? say no to what? [20:05] [@miccofl> some of the things that just don't work [20:06] [E_T> Hmmm [20:06] [@miccofl> Cutting Iron was shot down many turns ago [20:06] [@miccofl> and now we pay for it [20:07] [conmcb25> Unfortunately yes. [20:07] [conmcb25> Its too bad they dont see it. [20:07] [conmcb25> Someone told me about that last fall and the light bulb went off. [20:07] [conmcb25> I was like: "hey thats a great idea!" [20:09] [conmcb25> Did you look at or suggest selling improvements? [20:09] [conmcb25> Like libraries? [20:10] [@miccofl> will do [20:10] [conmcb25> Like I said they aint doing you any good right now. [20:10] [conmcb25> Its SURVIVAL time [20:10] [conmcb25> [20:11] [E_T> unless they are about to increase cultural borders, it's time to scrimp and save as much as you can [20:11] [conmcb25> I concur [20:11] [conmcb25> We aren't trying to tell you guys what to do, just offerring suggestions. [20:12] [conmcb25> And not only do you get some cash now for libraries but you also gain that GPT for the maintenance [20:13] [conmcb25> So you get 10 gold now for each library and then gain back the one GPT for each one. [20:14] [conmcb25> Sell off ten and you get a hundred gold and gain 10 GPT every turn. [20:14] [conmcb25> It adds up [20:14] [E_T> but again, if a city is close to increasing it's cultural border, hold off on selling it, because that can help you too [20:15] [conmcb25> Yes [20:15] [conmcb25> because they dont heal in your culture [20:15] [@miccofl> we have 15 libraries [20:15] [conmcb25> Are any close to a culture pop? [20:17] [@miccofl> not sure, they want to move the units first [20:17] [conmcb25> OK [20:17] [conmcb25> But if you get that gold now you can upgrade horses [20:17] [conmcb25> Keep that in mind [20:40] [@miccofl> I was just dared to draw up a strategy for a 4 ship, 4 settler suicide transit to your continent - do you have anyone who could provide a statistical analysis on the feasability of that? [20:40] [conmcb25> doesn't [20:41] [conmcb25> Yes we can [20:41] [conmcb25> actually E_T mybe able to do that [20:41] [E_T> 50% per turn away from coast [20:41] [E_T> confirmed by myself in a sim [20:42] [conmcb25> So it should be a 50% survial rate [20:42] [E_T> so, 2 turns to cross in treacherous waters, it would be 25% per ship [20:43] [conmcb25> Is it two turns ET? [20:43] [conmcb25> There is no better place? [20:43] [E_T> because the probibilites are cumulative [20:43] [E_T> 2 turns at the shortest points [20:43] [conmcb25> OK [20:45] [E_T> 25% survival rate for those 2 turns, figure this, 0.5^number of turns in open water and that is your approx survival rate [20:51] [@miccofl> I have authorization to create a plan to make this happen, if I pull it off the city will be named Heywood J'ablome [20:51] [@miccofl> how many ships and how many settlers will I need [20:51] [@miccofl> the city should be buiried deep [20:52] [E_T> If anything, we will have a city ready for you on 600ADm all you have to do, is have that settler live until then [20:52] [@miccofl> and should we coordinate with CFC on this? [20:53] [conmcb25> I dont think you NEED to [20:53] [conmcb25> But if you WANT to thats OK [20:53] [conmcb25> Its part of our AOR you are getting [20:53] [E_T> well, if they are working with you on that respect, and it's before that date, then that is good [20:53] [@miccofl> would you elaborate on that? [20:53] [conmcb25> elaborate on what exactly? [20:54] [E_T> we have a settler in the works, to build a city that will be our refuge, if it comes to that, but it's not quite finished (and then it needs to move into place and build that city) [20:54] [@miccofl> why we wouldn't NEED or WANT to have a consultation with CFC [20:55] [E_T> *will be your [20:55] [conmcb25> All Im saying about CFC is it does not affect the land THEY have. [20:55] [conmcb25> So you dont NEED to tell them. [20:56] [@miccofl> I would rather, if possible, not to have a city gifted, but one that was made from a settler that arrived and did his own thing [20:56] [conmcb25> But if you want to thats fine [20:56] [E_T> we had a summit schedualed with CFC last week, but are not aware of any plans along this line that you might have discussed with them about this [20:56] [E_T> but we are telling you what WE have in the works [20:56] [@miccofl> don't take this wrong, we are not refusing the safety valve, but we would rather do it honest [20:57] [conmcb25> We are offering you a city [20:57] [conmcb25> If you guys want to do it he old fashioned way thats fine [20:57] [E_T> there will be no unit warping, they have to slogg across the old fashion way [20:57] [E_T> but you will have a home [20:57] [conmcb25> BUT, incase NONE of your settlers make you may want to consider it. [20:58] * conmcb25 is now known as conmcb25_BRB [20:58] [@miccofl> we would rather try to "slog it accross the old fasoned way", but we will not turn down help from our friends when it is offered [20:59] [E_T> Plus, we have a possibility that we still have to check out, but really is still to early to go into further [20:59] * @miccofl likes to think that there are always possibilities [21:00] * E_T just doesn't want to get your hopes up too much, is all [21:01] * @miccofl has to laugh at the irony (implied and unknown) in that thought [21:02] [E_T> but, when we get that city built, we are prepaired to gift it to you at that time [22:00] [conmcb25> How is the turn coming? [22:03] * conmcb25 is now known as conmcb25_awayDemoGaming [22:05] [@miccofl> hour maybe? [22:09] [conmcb25_awayDemoGaming> OK [22:09] [conmcb25_awayDemoGaming> I meant how is it going in the sense of what do you guys think vice timeline [22:11] [@miccofl> keep that city in mind [22:11] [conmcb25_awayDemoGaming> OK [22:11] [conmcb25_awayDemoGaming> I go it [22:13] [miccofl> I will say I have never run into luck like GCA's and GWT's... [22:14] [conmcb25_awayDemoGaming> What is it about the Germans anyway? [22:15] [miccofl> I am half German, and I feel embarrassed [22:15] [conmcb25_awayDemoGaming> ha ha

	07-04-2004 08:36									#310
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Chat with CGN tonight mostly about war strategy:

quote: [21:19] Trip> [20:18] they can get from Otternasenhausen to Agincourt in 2 turns [21:19] Trip> [20:18] with Ansar [21:19] Trip> [20:19] same with waterloo [21:19] Trip> [20:19] plus they will see if we move any units out of waterloo [21:19] Trip> [20:19] and than attack waterloo [21:20] Trip> how will they see you moving units out of Waterloo? [21:20] Trip> you could leave 1 Musket to decieve them [21:20] Trip> or simply abandon the entire peninsula [21:20] Trip> [20:19] and than we are really screwed fighting 2 fronts [21:20] Trip> you're already fighting on 3 fronts... [21:20] Trip> Waterloo, Arlington and now Sevenoaks [21:20] @SL3> if they get past waterloo the game is over [21:21] Trip> if you withdraw from Waterloo then you only have to worry about the other two [21:21] @SL3> no [21:21] @SL3> how about saxton, FP and arlington [21:21] @SL3> all grassland cities with no good defense [21:22] Trip> you can place units at a place where they can go to Arlington or Saxton in a single turn, depending on where they head [21:22] Trip> Walls in Saxton [21:22] Trip> reduce to 2 fronts [21:22] Trip> right now half your Muskets are sitting in Waterloo [21:23] Trip> while the other half has to cover Sevenoaks and Arlington, on fronts that really matter [21:23] SL3> and it covers the whole area [21:23] SL3> with very good defense [21:23] SL3> dont see how moving them out helps by givng us less fronts [21:24] Trip> right now Sevenoaks, Arlington and Waterloo are all on the front lines... that's 3 cities you have to cover sufficiently [21:24] SL3> because it doesnt [21:24] Trip> if you withdraw from Waterloo that cuts it down to just Arlington and Sevenoaks [21:24] SL3> and if we move out we have exchange saxton for waterloo [21:24] SL3> still have 3 [21:24] SL3> and less defendable [21:25] Trip> you can concentrate units on that front in a location that can get to both Arlington and Saxton in a single turn [21:25] Trip> which effectively only counts as one front [21:25] conmcb25_busy> He has a point SL3 [21:25] conmcb25_busy> You only have so many units [21:26] SL3> and when they have units that can attack both cities from both direction and our units get caught in the middle defending neither city [21:26] conmcb25_busy> And I agree neither option is optimal at this point. [21:26] SL3> waterloo is straight forward [21:26] SL3> only one way they can go [21:26] Trip> WHY would they attack it though? [21:27] Trip> they know that YOU aren't going to be attacking them there [21:27] SL3> I hope they dont [21:27] Trip> they can simply hit Sevenoaks or Arlington instead and completely ignore Waterloo until Arhus is taken [21:27] SL3> all our reserves go else where [21:27] Trip> what reasoning do they have to even attack the city any time in the near future? [21:28] SL3> because once waterloo is gone we are finished and yes they have already scouted our territroy and know the layout [21:29] Trip> why are you finished when it's gone? [21:29] Trip> they can simply go around it and kill you easier that way [21:29] Trip> Sevenoaks is more important than Waterloo [21:30] Trip> if they take that city then they're only a few tiles away from both Floral Park and Arhus [21:30] Trip> and you'll have a HUGE amount of territory to cover [21:30] conmcb25_busy> What if Waterloo holds and they go thru Coloumbus and eventually take Arhus? [21:30] Trip> they can attack from many angles [21:30] @SL3> or they can even go around and not attack 7oaks at all [21:32] Trip> they can more easily ignore Waterloo than Sevenoaks [21:32] @SL3> without gold to upgrade our pikes and horses we have no chance of holding out, it is a game of making it hard for them and tohold out as long as possible [21:32] conmcb25_busy> Did you guys talk about selling your libraries? [21:32] @SL3> slow them down and make them go 1 tile at a time [21:32] @SL3> done [21:33] conmcb25_busy> OK [21:33] @SL3> didnt even give me enough gold for 1 upgrade so I dont know why we did it [21:33] Trip> what if they leave Waterloo as the very last city? [21:33] Trip> it's not as though it produces anything [21:33] Trip> just hold up a bunch of units there until everything else is gone [21:33] Trip> meanwhile those 7 Muskets could have been used elsewhere [21:34] @SL3> whats the differrence as to what our last city is? [21:34] @SL3> so we move them to arthus [21:34] @SL3> waterloo will kill more attackers [21:35] Trip> the longer you hold out the more it costs them in WW [21:35] Trip> the more concentrated you are the more losses they'll take [21:35] Trip> units spread out can be ganged up on [21:35] Trip> Ansar retreat, a new one comes in and cleans up [21:35] @SL3> I have 3 units left to move and need to destroy 6 roads this turn [21:35] @SL3> grr brb [21:37] Trip> what is easier to kill, 8 units scattered over 8 tiles or 6 units in one tile? [21:45] @SL3> that is exactly why those 8 should stay in waterloo [21:46] rip> no [21:46] @SL3> we dont have anymore [21:46] Trip> you'll have a stack near Sevenoaks, a stack by Arlington and a stack by Waterloo [21:46] @SL3> wow [21:46] Trip> as opposed to a stack by Sevenoaks and another stack by Arlington [21:46] @SL3> you must know about uniots that I do not [21:47] @SL3> so you think 4-4-4 stacks of muskets is better than 8-8 [21:47] @SL3> grr I did that wron [21:47] Trip> what about Sevenoaks? what if they attack over there? [21:48] Trip> no, it would be 8 and 8... one of 8 by Sevenoaks, another of 8 between Arlingtonand Saxton [21:48] @SL3> we do not have any near 7oaks [21:48] Trip> which is something you need to address :P [21:48] Trip> and this would be a good way to do that [21:49] Trip> what happens if they go for Sevenoaks next? [21:49] Trip> and those 12 Ansar are within attack range? [21:49] @SL3> yes [21:49] @SL3> they can take 7oaks in 2 turns if they want [21:50] Trip> why not transfer some forces by Floral Park/Arlington that direction instead? [21:50] @SL3> and can take arthus before our units from waterloo ever make it there [21:50] Trip> and transfer the Waterloo defense back towards Arlington [21:50] you shift things incrementally [21:50] <@SL3> there are no forces at FP [21:50] Trip> Arlington forces move to Sevenoaks [21:50] Trip> Waterloo forces to Arlington [21:50] SL3> I havent shifted anything [21:51] Trip> you must have had some units in the area that you could move from the Arlington area to get to Sevenoaks in 2 turns [21:51] @SL3> I was the one saying they would by pass arlington but no one listen [21:51] @SL3> 1 musket [21:51] Trip> what did you do with the units that were in Columbus? [21:52] @SL3> they have not moved, they need to destroy the roads and sacrafice themselves so they cannot attack 7oaks this turn [21:52] @SL3> settler is on a galley [21:52] Trip> is there any chance that you can replay the military part of the turn? [21:53] @SL3> I moved all availuable units to 7oaks so what is there to replay [21:53] Trip> Renewed Castle and Waterloo are costing you [21:54] Trip> I strongly recommend you shift forces away from those areas [21:54] @SL3> whats the difference of having units at RC vs Arlington [21:54] Trip> it allows you to withdraw from Waterloo [21:54] Trip> as I mentioned before, you can have a stack between Arlington and Saxton to be able to defend both cities [21:54] @SL3> losing 20+ knights and never getting to attack is what cost us[21:55] if you hold on to RC and withdraw from Waterloo you still have to have a stack in RC and another protecting Arlington/Saxton from the east [21:55] Trip> it helps you consolidate the front down to only the Sevenoaks and Arlington regions [21:55] @SL3> you are missing the main point [21:55] @SL3> NO UNITS CAN MAKE IT TO 7Oaks IN TIME [21:56] @SL3> so why weaken ourselves [21:56] Trip> you can get them there in a few turns [21:56] @SL3> in the cities we can defend best when we are going to lose [21:56] Trip> you can abandon Columbus, pillage those roads and start heading units that direction [21:56] @SL3> I Did [21:56] Trip> in addition to the other things to help slow them down [21:56] @SL3> yes [21:56] Trip> the fact is that you have 12 Ansar on the side of the continent and very few units over there to deal with them, including 0 Muskets [21:56] Trip> you NEED to get some Muskets over there [21:57] @SL3> we need a lot of thimgs [21:57] @SL3> but we do not have them [21:57] Trip> if you don't then they can easily sweep through your west [21:58] Trip> and all those units around Waterloo and RC won't be doing anything [21:58] @SL3> I could always replay and just destroy 5-6 cities and move all units towards arthus and destroy all raods as they go because that is basically what you are saying [21:58] Trip> no I'm not [21:58] Trip> your final line of defense ought to be Sevenoaks-Arlington [21:58] Trip> that is your best shot to stop them [21:58] @SL3> 7oaks? [21:59] @SL3> They can go right by it [21:59] @SL3> and we cannot defend it this turn or next turn if they attack [21:59] Trip> in order to go around it they will have to send a bunch of Ansar alone [21:59] Trip> that's the majority of their Ansar [22:00] Trip> you will soon have a good number of Knights upgraded [22:00] @SL3> once again I ask how you know that[22:00] @SL3> they have had 10+ turns to bring down nore units [22:00] @SL3> that we do not know about [22:00] Trip> so where are they then? [22:00] @SL3> got me [22:01] Trip> if they had them they would be next to Columbus right now [22:01] Trip> where they are is in that stack and the graves at the battlefields of Agincourt and Perris [22:01] Trip> all we can go on is what we see [22:01] Trip> this is the best way to delay them [22:01] Trip> please, I strongly encourage you to see what I'm saying here [22:02] Trip> your best shot at stopping them is a conslidated line at Sevenoaks and Arlington [22:02] @SL3> just like agincourt [22:02] Trip> I never said anything about Agincourt [22:02] @SL3> I'm still mad about agincourt [22:02] Trip> BF was the one that told you to stand [22:02] Trip> BF was the one that gave you the % chances [22:02] @SL3> not me I was the one that argued against it [22:03] @SL3> I could have delayed them a minimal of 6 turns with no risk [22:03] @SL3> with WHAT we could see [22:04] Trip> the point is that if you withdraw from RC and Waterloo they only have TWO main routes of advance... through Sevenoaks and through Arlington... if they don't send their Ansar alone for quite a few turns then they won't be able to outflank Sevenoaks before you're able to upgrade more Knights [22:04] @SL3> and had knighst to attack first when they were in the open unfortified [22:05] @SL3> upgrade to knights? [22:05] @SL3> now you sound like other on my team [22:05] @SL3> not sure how everyone keeps thinking we can upgrade all our horses to knights [22:05] @SL3> that takes gold [22:05] Trip> how much gold do you have available at the start of this turn? [22:06] * Furloaf has joined #isdg-embassy1 [22:07] Trip> Furloaf: [22:07] Trip> the point is that if you withdraw from RC and Waterloo they only have TWO main routes of advance... through Sevenoaks and through Arlington... if they don't send their Ansar alone for quite a few turns then they won't be able to outflank Sevenoaks before you're able to upgrade more Knights [22:07] <@SL3> 161 [22:07] SL3> I disagree [22:08] Trip> so you think it's a better idea to leave Sevenoaks completely undefended while RC and Waterloo keep their 15 Musket? [22:09] @SL3> and you are saying that the units from RC and waterloo can make it to 7oaks before we lose 7oaks? [22:11] Trip> I believe there's a chance, and that's the best chance you have at saving Sevenoaks and your entire western front [22:11] Trip> if they get there before you, then what does it matter? You'll lose Tampere, Washington, Saugus, Sevenoaks and your saltpeter [22:11] Trip> and they'll be in range of Micco, Arhus and Floral Park [22:11] Trip> that's about the most disastrous thing I can imagine [22:11] Trip> moreso than them getting Waterloo or RC or even both [22:11] @SL3> give a sec [22:12] @SL3> trying to get furloaf caught up with the turn [22:12] Trip> ok [22:13] Trip> at this point, they can easily pick and choose which city they want to attack on any front; your best chance at stopping them or delaying them significantly is to cut down on the number of possibilities for them to be able to attack [22:14] Trip> withdrawing to a Sevenoaks-Arlington line can do that for you [22:15] Trip> if they want to march west the only way they'll be able to do so SAFELY is one tile at a time... they may, they may not [22:15] Trip> but you have more to gain assuming they won't and acting upon than than assuming they will and losing your entire west [22:15] so far they have attacked from 2 tiles away, but IIRC they have not MOVED 2+ tiles with their Ansar alone [22:16] are almost all of your units in RC and Waterloo? [22:23] brb [22:23] Trip> restarting [22:23] * Trip has quit IRC (Quit: ) [22:28] * Trip has joined #isdg-embassy1

	07-04-2004 10:07									#311
	Suffering from ads?

And the end of the conversation.

quote: [22:38] SL, you there? [22:44] Furloaf> I'm here [22:44] Trip> what do you think of what I've suggested [22:47] Furloaf> Waterloo is a strong defensive position [22:47] Trip> yes, which is a good reason for them not to attack there [22:47] Furloaf> Defending at Arlington-Sevenoaks is still a wide front [22:47] Trip> defending Sevenoaks-Arlington-Waterloo is even wider [22:47] Furloaf> Waterloo is just about a lock-down on them though [22:47] Furloaf> they don't have reason to attack it [22:48] @SL3> I'm still here [22:48] Trip> so they'll attack elsewhere [22:48] Trip> cities that are significant, like Sevenoaks [22:48] @SL3> I need to get to bed so I'm trying to finish the turn [22:48] Trip> Waterloo, on the other hand, is quite corrupt [22:48] Furloaf> we can't control where they'll attack [22:49] Trip> which is why you have to cover all the bases the best you can [22:49] Trip> and protect the important parts of your empire [22:50] Trip> Waterloo may be a strong defensive position, but it doesn't produce hardly anything [22:50] Trip> meanwhile, GWT can keep 3 or 4 Pikes in their chokepoint city nearby and completely ignore all of those Muskets [22:50] Trip> if they get past Waterloo, they'll come to Arlington next [22:50] Trip> if you simply abandon Waterloo, you'll cut the front down quite a bit [22:50] Trip> since Arlington is already basically on the front line [22:52] Trip> if you abandon Renewed Castle and Waterloo, all you need are 2 stacks to defend the whole front... 1 for Sevenoaks and the west, and another between Arlington and Saxton [22:52] Trip> instead of Sevenoaks, RC and Waterloo, as you have now [22:59] Furloaf> I don't think leaving Waterloo benefits [22:59] Furloaf> it gives them another split to attack two cities with Arlington and Saxton [22:59] Furloaf> and it takes too long for the units in Waterloo to move, and they'll be spotted when moving [23:00] Furloaf> they've shown that they are moving along a nothern attack the whole time [23:00] Furloaf> I'm not sure on the significance of statying at RC though [23:00] Trip> that being the case, wouldn't it make more sense to transfer resources from a front where they AREN'T attacking? [23:00] Trip> otherwise those 7 Muskets and 2 Catapults are simply sitting doing nothing [23:01] Trip> while they tear up your west [23:01] Furloaf> I think it may be better to move the RC units to Arlington and have Arlington units go to Severnoaks [23:01] Trip> it's too thin [23:02] Trip> they may fork you at Arlington and Saxton, but that will take some time [23:02] Trip> their main force is in the north, as you pointed out [23:02] Trip> if they wanted to switch all the way to the east front it would take time [23:02] Furloaf> they could send reinforcements along the south [23:02] Trip> and then they would be split, and wouldn't concentrate [23:03] Furloaf> right now Waterloo is preventing that from happening [23:03] Trip> your biggest threat is them concentrating on a weak point in your line [23:03] Trip> which they can easily do [23:03] Trip> with you defending Sevenoaks, RC and Waterloo [23:03] Trip> they can simply pick any point and crush it [23:03] Furloaf> Theres always going to be a week point in our line [23:03] Trip> since they know they have no offensive from you to fear [23:03] Trip> you can strengthen all points in the line by making it shorter [23:03] Furloaf> abandoning Waterloo just moves it back and prevents a fork [23:03] Furloaf> not prevent, presents a fork [23:04] Trip> yes, but it gives you a shorter front and time to work with [23:04] Trip> time is something you REALLY need [23:04] Trip> considering they've already outflanked you in the west [23:04] Trip> frankly [23:04] Furloaf> how does it give more time? [23:04] Trip> you have more to worry about them simply crushing a stack at Sevenoaks than you do them forking Arlington and Saxton [23:04] Trip> because if they do decide to come from the east as well they need time to transfer forces there in order to concentrate and deliver a strong blow [23:04] Trip> otherwise they're split, just like you [23:05] Trip> and that's not sound doctrine [23:06] Trip> them forking Arlington and Saxton is not as crippling as losing a small force at Sevenoaks and having nothing to stop them from taking Arhus, Micco and your entire south [23:06] Trip> which they can easily do [23:06] Trip> unless you're able to stop them by concentrating your forces better [23:06] Trip> don't you agree with that? [23:07] Trip> Sevenoaks and Arlington are the crux of your defense [23:07] Trip> when THEY go YOU go [23:07] Trip> that doesn't go for cities like RC or Waterloo [23:07] Furloaf> The units in Waterloo can't make it to Sevenoaks in time [23:07] Trip> I know [23:07] Trip> but you can shuffle things [23:08] Trip> RC and Arlington go to Sevenoaks [23:08] Trip> the Waterloo defense goes to Arlington [23:08] Trip> it's the best shot you have [23:08] Trip> otherwise you'll only have a handful of scattered units to defend Sevenoaks and Arlington, the two most important cities to hold onto right now [23:08] Trip> IIRC SL said you had 13 or 15 Muskets right now [23:08] Trip> 7 are in Waterloo [23:09] Trip> that means only ~HALF of your Muskets are defending 90% of your front [23:09] Furloaf> Even from Arlington it is slim [23:09] Trip> slim is better than none [23:09] Trip> if they are delayed just a bit you'll be much better off [23:09] Trip> if you don't, then you'll have Waterloo and lose Sevenoaks no matter what [23:09] Furloaf> what would delay them? [23:09] Trip> well, you have some Horses [23:10] Trip> you could use those to attack a stack that comes towards Sevenoaks without Pikes [23:10] Trip> and cross your fingers [23:10] Trip> there's really not much else you can do [23:11] Trip> but not doing anything different is worse [23:11] Trip> then you just kind of have to hope they never attack, or they attack Waterloo :P [23:11] Trip> both of which are chances much slimmer than them delaying enough for you to reshuffle your forces [23:12] Furloaf> sorry its hard to keep up with many conversations going at once [23:21] E_T> hey, try it with more than one team chat going on at once.... [23:26] conmcb25_busy> And several games [23:27] Trip> over several hours :P [23:43] Furloaf> turn incoming [23:44] * E_T ducks [23:46] SL3> turn sent, good night all [23:47] * @SL3 has left #isdg-embassy1

	08-04-2004 06:30									#312
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Vexing chat mk. I

quote: [18:17] [Trip] What did you guys have at Perris before they attacked? [18:18] [miccofl] don't recall, a shitload [18:18] [miccofl] or was that agincourt [18:20] [Trip] I heard something like 18 [18:20] [Trip] maybe you or SL could check [18:28] [miccofl] 12 Muskets, 7 Pikes, 3 MI and a Warrior [18:28] [Trip] I see [18:29] [Trip] any way of telling what GWT units are there? [18:29] [Trip] how many Muskets do you have left? [18:29] [miccofl] there was before I exited [18:31] [miccofl] we currently have 15 muskets [18:31] [Trip] well, that's not bad [18:31] [Trip] your best bet is to try and force them into a finale at Arlington [18:31] [miccofl] 9 horses ready to upgrade but no where near enough gold for that [18:31] [Trip] is this the turn you currently have? [18:32] [miccofl] They are heading for Columbus [18:33] [Trip] with what? [18:33] [miccofl] 12 Ansar and 4 Pikes [18:33] [miccofl] too slow [18:35] [Trip] all full health? [18:35] [miccofl] yes [18:35] [Trip] what do you have in/near Columbus now? [18:36] [miccofl] A Musket, a Horse and a Settler [18:37] * Trip sighs [18:37] [Trip] time to disband [18:38] [miccofl] that will send them to Sevenoaks - 2 horses [18:38] [Trip] they may not have seen Sevenoaks yet [18:38] [Trip] and they'll only go one tile at a time with those Pikes [18:38] [Trip] but they can attack 2 tiles away [18:38] [miccofl] won't take them long [18:39] [Trip] which means they can and will take Columbus this coming turn [19:34] [SL3] btb said the samething about them going only 1 tile at a time and he was WRONG [19:34] [SL3] This turn Sucks [19:51] [Trip] going 1 turn at a time where? [19:53] [SL3] "and they'll only go one tile at a time with those Pike" [19:53] [SL3] I disagree [19:53] [Trip] when did BtB say that though? [19:54] [SL3] they will move their ansars more than 1 tile if needed [19:54] [SL3] a few turns back [19:54] [Trip] when they attacked Agincourt? [19:54] [SL3] sometime around than [19:55] [SL3] dont get me wrong, I hope they do only move 1 tile [19:55] [SL3] but that would be a big mistake on their part [19:55] [Trip] I don't disagree that they will ATTACK from more than 1 tile away [19:55] [Trip] however, they have no where to attack this turn besides Columbus [19:56] [Trip] the only other target is Sevenoaks [19:56] [Trip] which they may not even know is there [19:56] [Trip] which means if they sent any significant number of Ansar out they'd be going into unknown territory with no Pikes [19:56] [Trip] if you muster all of your Horsemen in Floral Park, you'll be able to destroy their Ansar that go alone [19:56] [Trip] they can get 1 tile away from Sevenoaks [19:56] [Trip] if they do though, they'll be undefended [19:56] [Trip] and you WILL be able to attack them this time [19:57] [SL3] I have moved all but 3 units [19:57] [Trip] :\ [19:57] [Trip] to where? [19:57] [SL3] I have 6 horses near 7oaks that could be upgraded next turn [19:59] [Trip] what about Columbus? [20:00] [SL3] gone [20:03] [Trip] any plans on abandoning Waterloo? [20:04] [SL3] no [20:04] [SL3] let them take it by force [20:05] [SL3] it has good defense [20:05] [SL3] we have to stand and fight some time [20:06] [Trip] what does it have? [20:07] [SL3] 7 muskets and 2 cats [20:08] [Trip] it's a liability [20:08] [Trip] their entire army is elsewhere [20:08] [Trip] they'll simply hold you at that chokepoint and pin those 9 units until they take Arhus [20:11] [Trip] the real threat will either be towards Sevenoaks or Arlington [20:11] [Trip] they're far enough apart that you'll see their real offensive a couple turns in advance [20:11] [Trip] and you can station your main reserves around Floral Park to deal with them [20:11] [SL3] [20:12] [Trip] do you disagree? [20:13] [Trip] they moved their entire offensive army towards Perris [20:13] [Trip] along with all of their Pikes [20:13] [Trip] all they have in their other chokepoint city is a few Pikes [20:13] [Trip] meanwhile those 7 Muskets and 2 Cats could be better used elsewhere [20:13] [Trip] especially after losing a bunch at Perris [20:14] [SL3] how do you know all of this [20:14] [Trip] SL, can you go to the embassy room [20:14] [Trip] going to bring some other guys [20:16] [Trip] well, you guys told us they advanced on Perris with all those units, including all those MIs and Pikes [20:16] [Trip] now their Ansar are by Columbus [20:16] [Trip] when they built that chokepoint city they had 3 or 4 Pikes there [20:16] [Trip] it's pretty clear they're just pinning you down there now [20:16] [Trip] it's not worth keeping half your Muskets over there [20:17] [SL3] so you are saying they have no reservers and have not built anymore ansars? [20:18] [Trip] they may, but we haven't seen any so far... [20:18] [SL3] and they have had more than 10 turns.... [20:18] [Trip] they can get from Otternasenhausen to Agincourt in 2 turns [20:18] [Trip] with Ansar [20:19] [SL3] same with waterloo [20:19] [SL3] plus they will see if we move any units out of waterloo [20:19] [SL3] and than attack waterloo [20:19] [SL3] and than we are really screwed fighting 2 fronts Session Close: Tue Apr 06 21:23:21 2004

	08-04-2004 06:32									#313
	Inflate your Upload Space

I then moved the chat over to the embassy room where con was:

quote: [20:20] [Trip] you're already fighting on 3 fronts... [20:20] [Trip] Waterloo, Arlington and now Sevenoaks [20:20] [SL3] if they get past waterloo the game is over [20:21] [Trip] if you withdraw from Waterloo then you only have to worry about the other two [20:21] [SL3] no [20:21] [SL3] how about saxton, FP and arlington [20:21] [SL3] all grassland cities with no good defense [20:22] [Trip] you can place units at a place where they can go to Arlington or Saxton in a single turn, depending on where they head [20:22] [Trip] Walls in Saxton [20:22] [Trip] reduce to 2 fronts [20:22] [Trip] right now half your Muskets are sitting in Waterloo [20:23] [Trip] while the other half has to cover Sevenoaks and Arlington, on fronts that really matter [20:23] [SL3] and it covers the whole area [20:23] [SL3] with very good defense [20:23] [SL3] dont see how moving them out helps by givng us less fronts [20:24] [Trip] right now Sevenoaks, Arlington and Waterloo are all on the front lines... that's 3 cities you have to cover sufficiently [20:24] [SL3] because it doesnt [20:24] [Trip] if you withdraw from Waterloo that cuts it down to just Arlington and Sevenoaks [20:24] [SL3] and if we move out we have exchange saxton for waterloo [20:24] [SL3] still have 3 [20:24] [Trip] no [20:24] [SL3] and less defendable [20:25] [Trip] you can concentrate units on that front in a location that can get to both Arlington and Saxton in a single turn [20:25] [Trip] which effectively only counts as one front [20:25] [conmcb25_busy] He has a point SL3 [20:26] [conmcb25_busy] You only have so many units [20:26] [SL3] and when they have units that can attack both cities from both direction and our units get caught in the middle defending neither city [20:26] [conmcb25_busy] And I agree neither option is optimal at this point. [20:26] [SL3] waterloo is straight forward [20:26] [SL3] only one way they can go [20:27] [Trip] WHY would they attack it though? [20:27] [Trip] they know that YOU aren't going to be attacking them there [20:27] [SL3] I hope they dont [20:27] [Trip] they can simply hit Sevenoaks or Arlington instead and completely ignore Waterloo until Arhus is taken [20:27] [SL3] all our reserves go else where [20:27] [Trip] what reasoning do they have to even attack the city any time in the near future? [20:28] [SL3] because once waterloo is gone we are finished and yes they have already scouted our territroy and know the layout [20:29] [Trip] why are you finished when it's gone? [20:29] [Trip] they can simply go around it and kill you easier that way [20:29] [Trip] Sevenoaks is more important than Waterloo [20:30] [Trip] if they take that city then they're only a few tiles away from both Floral Park and Arhus [20:30] [Trip] and you'll have a HUGE amount of territory to cover [20:30] [conmcb25_busy] What if Waterloo holds and they go thru Coloumbus and eventually take Arhus? [20:30] [Trip] they can attack from many angles [20:30] [SL3] or they can even go around and not attack 7oaks at all [20:32] [Trip] they can more easily ignore Waterloo than Sevenoaks [20:32] [SL3] without gold to upgrade our pikes and horses we have no chance of holding out, it is a game of making it hard for them and to hold out as long as possible [20:32] [SL3] slow them down and make them go 1 tile at a time [20:32] [conmcb25_busy] Did you guys talk about selling your libraries? [20:32] [SL3] done [20:33] [conmcb25_busy] OK [20:33] [SL3] didnt even give me enough gold for 1 upgrade so I dont know why we did it [20:33] [Trip] what if they leave Waterloo as the very last city? [20:33] [Trip] it's not as though it produces anything [20:33] [Trip] just hold up a bunch of units there until everything else is gone [20:33] [Trip] meanwhile those 7 Muskets could have been used elsewhere [20:34] [SL3] whats the differrence as to what our last city is? [20:34] [SL3] so we move them to arthus [20:34] [SL3] waterloo will kill more attackers [20:35] [Trip] the longer you hold out the more it costs them in WW [20:35] [Trip] the more concentrated you are the more losses they'll take [20:35] [Trip] units spread out can be ganged up on [20:35] [Trip] Ansar retreat, a new one comes in and cleans up [20:35] [SL3] I have 3 units left to move and need to destroy 6 roads this turn [20:35] [SL3] grr brb [20:37] [Trip] what is easier to kill, 8 units scattered over 8 tiles or 6 units in one tile? [20:45] [SL3] that is exactly why those 8 should stay in waterloo [20:46] [Trip] no [20:46] [Trip] you'll have a stack near Sevenoaks, a stack by Arlington and a stack by Waterloo [20:46] [SL3] we dont have anymore [20:46] [SL3] wow [20:46] [Trip] as opposed to a stack by Sevenoaks and another stack by Arlington [20:46] [SL3] you must know about uniots that I do not [20:47] [SL3] so you think 4-4-4 stacks of muskets is better than 8-8 [20:47] [SL3] grr I did that wron [20:47] [Trip] what about Sevenoaks? what if they attack over there? [20:48] [Trip] no, it would be 8 and 8... one of 8 by Sevenoaks, another of 8 between Arlington and Saxton [20:48] [SL3] we do not have any near 7oaks [20:48] [Trip] which is something you need to address :P [20:49] [Trip] and this would be a good way to do that [20:49] [Trip] what happens if they go for Sevenoaks next? [20:49] [Trip] and those 12 Ansar are within attack range? [20:49] [SL3] yes [20:49] [SL3] they can take 7oaks in 2 turns if they want [20:50] [Trip] why not transfer some forces by Floral Park/Arlington that direction instead? [20:50] [SL3] and can take arthus before our units from waterloo ever make it there [20:50] [Trip] and transfer the Waterloo defense back towards Arlington [20:50] [Trip] you shift things incrementally [20:50] [SL3] there are no forces at FP [20:50] [Trip] Arlington forces move to Sevenoaks [20:50] [Trip] Waterloo forces to Arlington [20:50] [SL3] I havent shifted anything [20:51] [Trip] you must have had some units in the area that you could move from the Arlington area to get to Sevenoaks in 2 turns [20:51] [SL3] I was the one saying they would by pass arlington but no one listen [20:51] [SL3] 1 musket [20:51] [Trip] what did you do with the units that were in Columbus? [20:52] [SL3] they have not moved, they need to destroy the roads and sacrafice themselves so they cannot attack 7oaks this turn [20:52] [SL3] settler is on a galley [20:52] [Trip] is there any chance that you can replay the military part of the turn? [20:53] [SL3] I moved all availuable units to 7oaks so what is there to replay [20:53] [Trip] Renewed Castle and Waterloo are costing you [20:54] [Trip] I strongly recommend you shift forces away from those areas [20:54] [SL3] whats the difference of having units at RC vs Arlington [20:54] [Trip] it allows you to withdraw from Waterloo [20:54] [Trip] as I mentioned before, you can have a stack between Arlington and Saxton to be able to defend both cities [20:54] [SL3] losing 20+ knights and never getting to attack is what cost us [20:55] [Trip] if you hold on to RC and withdraw from Waterloo you still have to have a stack in RC and another protecting Arlington/Saxton from the east [20:55] [Trip] it helps you consolidate the front down to only the Sevenoaks and Arlington regions [20:55] [SL3] you are missing the main point [20:55] [SL3] NO UNITS CAN MAKE IT TO 7Oaks IN TIME [20:56] [SL3] so why weaken ourselves [20:56] [Trip] you can get them there in a few turns [20:56] [SL3] in the cities we can defend best when we are going to lose [20:56] [Trip] you can abandon Columbus, pillage those roads and start heading units that direction [20:56] [SL3] I Did [20:56] [Trip] in addition to the other things to help slow them down [20:56] [SL3] yes [20:56] [Trip] the fact is that you have 12 Ansar on the side of the continent and very few units over there to deal with them, including 0 Muskets [20:56] [Trip] you NEED to get some Muskets over there [20:57] [SL3] we need a lot of thimgs [20:57] [SL3] but we do not have them [20:57] [Trip] if you don't then they can easily sweep through your west [20:58] [Trip] and all those units around Waterloo and RC won't be doing anything [20:58] [SL3] I could always replay and just destroy 5-6 cities and move all units towards arthus and destroy all raods as they go because that is basically what you are saying [20:58] [Trip] no I'm not [20:58] [Trip] your final line of defense ought to be Sevenoaks-Arlington [20:58] [Trip] that is your best shot to stop them [20:58] [SL3] 7oaks? [20:59] [SL3] They can go right by it [20:59] [SL3] and we cannot defend it this turn or next turn if they attack [20:59] [Trip] in order to go around it they will have to send a bunch of Ansar alone [20:59] [Trip] that's the majority of their Ansar [21:00] [Trip] you will soon have a good number of Knights upgraded [21:00] [SL3] once again I ask how you know that [21:00] [SL3] they have had 10+ turns to bring down nore units [21:00] [SL3] that we do not know about [21:00] [Trip] so where are they then? [21:00] [SL3] got me [21:01] [Trip] if they had them they would be next to Columbus right now [21:01] [Trip] where they are is in that stack and the graves at the battlefields of Agincourt and Perris [21:01] [Trip] all we can go on is what we see [21:01] [Trip] this is the best way to delay them [21:01] [Trip] please, I strongly encourage you to see what I'm saying here [21:02] [Trip] your best shot at stopping them is a conslidated line at Sevenoaks and Arlington [21:02] [SL3] just like agincourt [21:02] [Trip] I never said anything about Agincourt [21:02] [SL3] I'm still mad about agincourt [21:02] [Trip] BF was the one that told you to stand [21:02] [Trip] BF was the one that gave you the % chances [21:02] [SL3] not me I was the one that argued against it [21:03] [SL3] I could have delayed them a minimal of 6 turns with no risk [21:03] [SL3] with WHAT we could see [21:04] [Trip] the point is that if you withdraw from RC and Waterloo they only have TWO main routes of advance... through Sevenoaks and through Arlington... if they don't send their Ansar alone for quite a few turns then they won't be able to outflank Sevenoaks before you're able to upgrade more Knights [21:04] [SL3] and had knighst to attack first when they were in the open unfortified [21:05] [SL3] upgrade to knights? [21:05] [SL3] now you sound like other on my team [21:05] [SL3] not sure how everyone keeps thinking we can upgrade all our horses to knights [21:05] [SL3] that takes gold [21:05] [Trip] how much gold do you have available at the start of this turn? [21:06] * Furloaf has joined #isdg-embassy1 [21:07] [Trip] Furloaf: [21:07] [Trip] [Trip] the point is that if you withdraw from RC and Waterloo they only have TWO main routes of advance... through Sevenoaks and through Arlington... if they don't send their Ansar alone for quite a few turns then they won't be able to outflank Sevenoaks before you're able to upgrade more Knights [21:07] [SL3] 161 [21:07] [SL3] I disagree [21:08] [Trip] so you think it's a better idea to leave Sevenoaks completely undefended while RC and Waterloo keep their 15 Musket? [21:09] [SL3] and you are saying that the units from RC and waterloo can make it to 7oaks before we lose 7oaks? [21:11] [Trip] I believe there's a chance, and that's the best chance you have at saving Sevenoaks and your entire western front [21:11] [Trip] if they get there before you, then what does it matter? You'll lose Tampere, Washington, Saugus, Sevenoaks and your saltpeter [21:11] [Trip] and they'll be in range of Micco, Arhus and Floral Park [21:11] [Trip] that's about the most disastrous thing I can imagine [21:11] [Trip] moreso than them getting Waterloo or RC or even both [21:11] [SL3] give a sec [21:12] [SL3] trying to get furloaf caught up with the turn [21:12] [Trip] ok [21:14] [Trip] at this point, they can easily pick and choose which city they want to attack on any front; your best chance at stopping them or delaying them significantly is to cut down on the number of possibilities for them to be able to attack [21:14] [Trip] withdrawing to a Sevenoaks-Arlington line can do that for you [21:15] [Trip] if they want to march west the only way they'll be able to do so SAFELY is one tile at a time... they may, they may not [21:15] [Trip] but you have more to gain assuming they won't and acting upon than than assuming they will and losing your entire west [21:15] [Trip] so far they have attacked from 2 tiles away, but IIRC they have not MOVED 2+ tiles with their Ansar alone [21:16] [Trip] are almost all of your units in RC and Waterloo? [21:23] [Trip] brb [21:23] [Trip] restarting [21:23] * Disconnected Session Close: Tue Apr 06 21:23:36 2004 Session Start: Tue Apr 06 21:28:37 2004 Session Ident: #isdg-embassy1 [21:28] * Now talking in #isdg-embassy1 [21:28] * Topic is 'Welcome ' [21:28] * Set by ChanServ on Wed Jan 21 13:02:31 [21:38] [Trip] SL, you there? [21:44] [Furloaf] I'm here [21:44] [Trip] what do you think of what I've suggested [21:47] [Furloaf] Waterloo is a strong defensive position [21:47] [Trip] yes, which is a good reason for them not to attack there [21:47] [Furloaf] Defending at Arlington-Sevenoaks is still a wide front [21:47] [Trip] defending Sevenoaks-Arlington-Waterloo is even wider [21:47] [Furloaf] Waterloo is just about a lock-down on them though [21:48] [Furloaf] they don't have reason to attack it [21:48] [Trip] so they'll attack elsewhere [21:48] [SL3] I'm still here [21:48] [Trip] cities that are significant, like Sevenoaks [21:48] [SL3] I need to get to bed so I'm trying to finish the turn [21:48] [Trip] Waterloo, on the other hand, is quite corrupt [21:48] [Furloaf] we can't control where they'll attack [21:49] [Trip] which is why you have to cover all the bases the best you can [21:49] [Trip] and protect the important parts of your empire [21:50] [Trip] Waterloo may be a strong defensive position, but it doesn't produce hardly anything [21:50] [Trip] meanwhile, GWT can keep 3 or 4 Pikes in their chokepoint city nearby and completely ignore all of those Muskets [21:50] [Trip] if they get past Waterloo, they'll come to Arlington next [21:50] [Trip] if you simply abandon Waterloo, you'll cut the front down quite a bit [21:50] [Trip] since Arlington is already basically on the front line [21:52] [Trip] if you abandon Renewed Castle and Waterloo, all you need are 2 stacks to defend the whole front... 1 for Sevenoaks and the west, and another between Arlington and Saxton [21:52] [Trip] instead of Sevenoaks, RC and Waterloo, as you have now [21:59] [Furloaf] I don't think leaving Waterloo benefits [21:59] [Furloaf] it gives them another split to attack two cities with Arlington and Saxton [21:59] [Furloaf] and it takes too long for the units in Waterloo to move, and they'll be spotted when moving [22:00] [Furloaf] they've shown that they are moving along a nothern attack the whole time [22:00] [Furloaf] I'm not sure on the significance of statying at RC though [22:00] [Trip] that being the case, wouldn't it make more sense to transfer resources from a front where they AREN'T attacking? [22:01] [Trip] otherwise those 7 Muskets and 2 Catapults are simply sitting doing nothing [22:01] [Trip] while they tear up your west [22:01] [Furloaf] I think it may be better to move the RC units to Arlington and have Arlington units go to Severnoaks [22:01] [Trip] it's too thin [22:02] [Trip] they may fork you at Arlington and Saxton, but that will take some time [22:02] [Trip] their main force is in the north, as you pointed out [22:02] [Trip] if they wanted to switch all the way to the east front it would take time [22:02] [Furloaf] they could send reinforcements along the south [22:03] [Trip] and then they would be split, and wouldn't concentrate [22:03] [Furloaf] right now Waterloo is preventing that from happening [22:03] [Trip] your biggest threat is them concentrating on a weak point in your line [22:03] [Trip] which they can easily do [22:03] [Trip] with you defending Sevenoaks, RC and Waterloo [22:03] [Trip] they can simply pick any point and crush it [22:03] [Furloaf] Theres always going to be a week point in our line [22:03] [Trip] since they know they have no offensive from you to fear [22:03] [Trip] you can strengthen all points in the line by making it shorter [22:03] [Furloaf] abandoning Waterloo just moves it back and prevents a fork [22:03] [Furloaf] not prevent, presents a fork [22:04] [Trip] yes, but it gives you a shorter front and time to work with [22:04] [Trip] time is something you REALLY need [22:04] [Trip] considering they've already outflanked you in the west [22:04] [Trip] frankly [22:04] [Furloaf] how does it give more time? [22:04] [Trip] you have more to worry about them simply crushing a stack at Sevenoaks than you do them forking Arlington and Saxton [22:04] [Trip] because if they do decide to come from the east as well they need time to transfer forces there in order to concentrate and deliver a strong blow [22:05] [Trip] otherwise they're split, just like you [22:05] [Trip] and that's not sound doctrine [22:06] [Trip] them forking Arlington and Saxton is not as crippling as losing a small force at Sevenoaks and having nothing to stop them from taking Arhus, Micco and your entire south [22:06] [Trip] which they can easily do [22:06] [Trip] unless you're able to stop them by concentrating your forces better [22:07] [Trip] don't you agree with that? [22:07] [Trip] Sevenoaks and Arlington are the crux of your defense [22:07] [Trip] when THEY go YOU go [22:07] [Trip] that doesn't go for cities like RC or Waterloo [22:07] [Furloaf] The units in Waterloo can't make it to Sevenoaks in time [22:07] [Trip] I know [22:07] [Trip] but you can shuffle things [22:08] [Trip] RC and Arlington go to Sevenoaks [22:08] [Trip] the Waterloo defense goes to Arlington [22:08] [Trip] it's the best shot you have [22:08] [Trip] otherwise you'll only have a handful of scattered units to defend Sevenoaks and Arlington, the two most important cities to hold onto right now [22:08] [Trip] IIRC SL said you had 13 or 15 Muskets right now [22:08] [Trip] 7 are in Waterloo [22:09] [Trip] that means only ~HALF of your Muskets are defending 90% of your front [22:09] [Furloaf] Even from Arlington it is slim [22:09] [Trip] slim is better than none [22:09] [Trip] if they are delayed just a bit you'll be much better off [22:09] [Trip] if you don't, then you'll have Waterloo and lose Sevenoaks no matter what [22:09] [Furloaf] what would delay them? [22:10] [Trip] well, you have some Horses [22:10] [Trip] you could use those to attack a stack that comes towards Sevenoaks without Pikes [22:10] [Trip] and cross your fingers [22:10] [Trip] there's really not much else you can do [22:11] [Trip] but not doing anything different is worse [22:11] [Trip] then you just kind of have to hope they never attack, or they attack Waterloo :P [22:11] [Trip] both of which are chances much slimmer than them delaying enough for you to reshuffle your forces

Down, down they go...

	09-04-2004 00:24									#314
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Brian the Bolds (CGN) request for a Grand chat on 7 april:

quote: Would it be posible to get a grand chat wioth us and poly and cfc again? Unless we can get some more cash imidiatly things look very grim for us. and even if we can get some cash im not shur it will help as even there mi and ansanars and swords always win even agaist our muskets...

My reply on 7 April:

quote: You guys can have a chat with us anytime we schedule it, and usually someone is in your chat room every evening USA time. If you want a SL3 to our consels chat I can set that up as well. CFC is a little harder to nail down, we tried to have a chat with them about 10 days ago and no one showed (from CFC), and we have not heard back from them yet on when they would like to get together for a chat. My wife is out of town for a week beginning this friday so this weekend would be great for me and Ill be able to idle in chat a lot more in the evenings for the next week starting friday (When the ***** is away, the slaves will play ) So yes you can count on Apoly and I can usually find at least one consel to sit in, just let me know, Ill bring it up in our forum.

We then discussed setting up this chat in the FAM channel last night. Nothing to interesting so I wont post it.

Another reply from Muk14 (CGN) on 8 april

quote: Most importantly we need support of Poly more than ever before. What would you think in terms of a loan. With a decent loan we will be able to repel the current attack & be more prepared for second wave.

and my reply to him on 8 april:

quote: I think this should be a topic of discussion for our "Grand Chat". Which BTW I have scheduled for friday evening at 9:00PM Central Standard Time. The agenda should be 1, Further loans 2. Apoly expectations if CGN has to evac to our continent 3. Anything else you gentlemen would like to discuss. Hopefully this is a time that will work, it looks like right now, I have at least on of our counsels attending and maybe more. We have also invited CFC. So hopefully we can all get together and chat about the current relevant issues. We will probably meet in the Apoly Foriegn affairs channel since CFC already knows how to get there, Ill post directions for logging on there later today

NOTE ANOTHER GOLD LOAN CAME UP TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I then conformed the time and channel with directions on how to log into the apoly chat room.

	09-04-2004 00:32									#315
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

My Pm contact with Donovan Zoi from CFC:

This occured last weekend:\

Re: PtW ISDG-GCA SPEARMAN LOATION

quote: : conmcb25 wrote on Apr 02, 2004 12:28 PM: Hello Im on the Foreign affairs staff for Apolyton. Im just forwarding you a screene shot of where the GCA spearman is, just in case you guys want to know. We still need to have a summit meeting sometime since last sunday did not work. Thanks Here is the screenie with the GCA spear location: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7...an_Location.jpg

His reply:

quote: Thanks for the update and pic. We actually caught a glimpse of him last turn(after Octavian told us you had mentioned it). As far as our summit is concerned, please give me some available times that would work for you. My best available times are weekdays between 430-7pm EST or 10pm-12 midnite EST. Weekends are pretty hit or miss. Let me know, and let's be sure to talk sometime this week. DZ

And my reply back on 8 april:

quote: Funny you should ask I think OCT_X posted a notice in your forum last might but we are trying to have a "Grand Chat" with you and CGN at 9:00PM Central Standard time this friday the 9th in the Apoly chat room. Hopefully you can make it. Sorry for not answering earlier, I only check CFC every once in a while now that all my CIV2 PBEMs have died

	09-04-2004 00:55									#316
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I sent this message to CFC and CGN today so we know who is who before the Grand Chat tomorrow:

quote: BTW DZ could you provide us with the latest breakdown of your government? So we know who is who? Currently at Apoly we have three consels: (They share executive power and play the turns) Arnelos Master Zen Trip Foriegn Affairs is: Togas Interior Minister is E_T Minister of War is: Trip (acting) BTW Im Deputy Foriegn Affairs Minister and Ambassador to CGN Thanks alot look forward to hearing from you guys tomorrow

	10-04-2004 10:51									#317
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

WB will be posting 3 chatlogs concerning our big chat with CGN and CFC soon.

Here is the log of my private chat with SL3 (the new leader of CGN) that was ongoing during the rest of the chat with the other teams.

Here ya are:

quote: [APO]Arnelos> you there? [CGN]SL3> wait [CGN]SL3> does that help [APO]Arnelos> yes [APO]Arnelos> it mirrors of the conclusion of much of Apolyton, frankly [CGN]SL3> unforunately I'm in the minority at CGN [APO]Arnelos> We need to be realistic about the potential outcomes and their prices... and what to do based upon that. [CGN]SL3> I havent figured out what half my members are talking about when they tell me to attack [APO]Arnelos> The problem is that if we continue to delude ourselves about the actual price of doing what we're doing, it'll cost far more than if we'd changed strategies when it was best to do so. [CGN]SL3> muk14 wants me to build warriors at my main cities [CGN]SL3> yes I agree [APO]Arnelos> heh... suffice it to be said that we are EXTREMELY doubtful of the wisdom of the warrior gambit [CGN]SL3> 1000 gold could be enough but it is crucial to get 400 every 2 turns [APO]Arnelos> there's no way we can find 1000 gold right now [APO]Arnelos> I think we have about 200 gold in the bank at the moment [CGN]SL3> without knighst I can not couter attack when they after they attack and are week [APO]Arnelos> point is... if this is an unwinnable war, then the military objectives of our alliance need to change. That change in perspective opens up military strategies and tactics that we would not otherwise consider that might be far more useful 10, 20, 30, 100 turns down the road in terms of their consequences to GWT. [APO]Arnelos> of course, if the war is still "winnable" along its CURRENT military objectives, then it would be unwise to give up on it. [APO]Arnelos> point is... we really really really need to be realistic about that assessment. [CGN]SL3> well you can count on the numbers I just gave you because if I have to I will take control of all military matters if I have the gold and can win. [CGN]SL3> than consider us lost [CGN]SL3> and plan on us sending settlers your way [APO]Arnelos> here's a question... Trip has suggested that we could still give you guys some money for this loan even if you are ultimately to lose... the reasoning is that damaging the GWT Ansar force, if it stays out in the open, would still be worth the expense [APO]Arnelos> do you think that 600g could accomplish that? [APO]Arnelos> at the very LEAST? [APO]Arnelos> if your survival is still possible, we're willing to shell out a lot of money to secure it. The problem is that we may not have enough money [CGN]SL3> I agree and the big problem I see is that they have gotten to attack, heal and attack about 5 times without us ever counter attacking because we killed about 30 knights without ever getting to attack with them. Give me a few turns to build up about 10 kights and when they attack arthus or micco I will counter attack and knockout the current ansar force [APO]Arnelos> the problem we're discussing is that you may very well still lose the war. 1) They probably have more Ansars in either April 1st or the chokepoint healing or in reserve. 2) They are quite certainly bringing in Ansar reinforcements from teh core to replace losses. 3) if bongo backs up the ansars, you're screwed. [APO]Arnelos> however, killing those Ansars, if bongo doesn't back them up, would be worth the expense regardless of the longterm outcome [CGN]SL3> I personally think we are finished and that is how we should plan the future [APO]Arnelos> Let's say that you're right (which much of Apolyton agrees with you on, but is afraid to talk openly about that). If so, what would you propose doing? [CGN]SL3> sending as many settlers and galleys your way and attempting to destroy as much as possible while attempting to fight a retreating battle [CGN]SL3> that is why I didnt like trips strategy [APO]Arnelos> btw... we think we may have an island to our Northwest... there is a sea channel [APO]Arnelos> we have been discussing, at length, the possibility of making that island your new home should you lose [CGN]SL3> because our units in waterloo can do more damage by staying there if we cannot win by moving them to arthus [APO]Arnelos> we do not know how large such a landmass may be. [APO]Arnelos> or even if it exists for sure [APO]Arnelos> but we're looking to scout it soon if we can [CGN]SL3> okay [APO]Arnelos> GWT does not know about it [APO]Arnelos> their map does not extend that far [APO]Arnelos> hmm... [APO]Arnelos> the big question I think is what would be your military strategy on your continent if it were to change into a "maximum damage on GWT while trying to escape with as many settlers as possible" strategy [CGN]SL3> with 400 gold every 2 turns we get 5 knights [APO]Arnelos> From our perspective, we want to explore both the "if CGN can win" and the "if CGN cannot win" strategies. That way we have developed plans under both cases, we know what they entail and what their costs are. CGN can then go for one or the other and we can support you on it when a determination is made for which way to go. [CGN]SL3> it takes them time to move so I was hoping for about 15 nights to counter attack when they go after Arthus [APO]Arnelos> hmm... [APO]Arnelos> Well, what would you say about your team? how many are of the opinoin of muk versus the opinion of yourself? [APO]Arnelos> Knowing when and if the opinion of your team moves from one or the other seems rather critical. [CGN]SL3> it doesnt really matter because I play the turns and lately no one else shows up unless I wait all freakin day [APO]Arnelos> ah [CGN]SL3> if we have an agreement than I play the turn and send it [CGN]SL3> if we do not have an agreement I will wait and let them ..... [APO]Arnelos> While the alliance as a whole is affected by what CGN does more than anything else right now, these decisions really come down to you guys, not us. Only you can decide whether to switch strategies from hoping to hold on to your remaining landmass to trying to get away settlers and go for maximum damage on GWT instead. [APO]Arnelos> If your team decides to fight it out, we'll still support you. [CGN]SL3> well actually we can do both [CGN]SL3> we have cities that will do nothing but produce miliatry and fight to the end [CGN]SL3> and the rest of the cities will start the evacuation [APO]Arnelos> We want to help as much as we can. The problem is determing what is the *optimal* way to further the alliance as a whole. If we pour out too much money to you guys and you end up losing, then the alliance will be worse off than if we'd used the money to get ahead in tech while preparing a new homeland for CGN over here. [CGN]SL3> I totally understand and agree [APO]Arnelos> this is the main concern of Apolyton and CFC. [APO]Arnelos> if we pour out too much money and it goes down the tubes, it'll actualy leave Apolyton, CFC, and CGN collectively worse off if things go badly [APO]Arnelos> however, we still want to send money if it can help. [APO]Arnelos> Hell, we want to do just about ANYTHING we can do to help [APO]Arnelos> there have been so many possible invasion plans and technology plans discussed in our forum it's just nutty [CGN]SL3> the minimal we need is about 400 next turn and than 160 every 2 turns for a fighting chance [APO]Arnelos> fighting chance of [APO]Arnelos> ? [CGN]SL3> causing enough of a hassle, delaying the loss of Arthus and helping with the withdraw kind of a middle between an all out fight to win or an all out withdraw [APO]Arnelos> ah [CGN]SL3> which would be my vote [CGN]SL3> but I'm not sure if that is best for apolyton [CGN]SL3> I hate to retraet without a fight [APO]Arnelos> hmm - I'll try to see if I can get at least that much money, but the team seems rather skeptical. [APO]Arnelos> fighting helps [APO]Arnelos> Afterall, GWT wants to give your lands to GCA [APO]Arnelos> the further that can be delayed... the harder that is, the better [CGN]SL3> if we can get that amount for about 6 turns and we get lucky than we can reevaluate for more or if things go bad we can stop [APO]Arnelos> the problem we have is that you've asked for a second loan when we're very short on cash [CGN]SL3> yes [APO]Arnelos> We ran deficit research for quite a while, wearing down our reserves. We spent what reserves we had left on the first loan. [APO]Arnelos> Pretty much all of the money we had built up from our 40-turn research of Invention is gone [CGN]SL3> and we lost all 8 musketman right after upgrading them, wish I knew how many units they lost [APO]Arnelos> Togas is bringing up a related subject in #isdgfamtalks [APO]Arnelos> we should probably head back in there [CGN]SL3> okay [APO]Arnelos> SL3 - here's a concern (primarily Trip's). Would it be possible for you guys to send us screenshots every turn if we were to send another loan (as part of the loan agreement)? [CGN]SL3> my screen shots are not like miccos and some may be disappointed [CGN]SL3> but I could give you the same shots I give our members [APO]Arnelos> that would help [APO]Arnelos> hmm... another idea. On this one, I speak as one of the two people (Togas and I) who conducted the RP Team's military campaign against GWT in the PTWDG... our ally, GS, we held joint warchats with during the war. We did so, primarily, because Togas and I wanted their input on military matters. [APO]Arnelos> would it be possible for you to do that with perhaps one or two members of Apolyton? [CGN]SL3> yes [APO]Arnelos> that's awesome [APO]Arnelos> It's been brought up that what's being looked for is shots when you receive the save as well as when you play it. Is that ok? [CGN]SL3> that is to much work and I could not make any promises [CGN]SL3> it is bad enough that I have to argue every move with our members if I give poly shots before the turn is play I would have to argue with them too [APO]Arnelos> yeah [CGN]SL3> agincourt [CGN]SL3> is a very good example [APO]Arnelos> I'll be frank and please don't share this with your team: Many on Apolyton believe that your team would be FAR FAR FAR better off if someone such as yourself or miccofl or Furloaf had more direct control over your military rather being at the whims of others who do not understand the issues as well. But oh well. [CGN]SL3> you are totally correct [APO]Arnelos> in truth, that is a rather large concern of the team in sending money [CGN]SL3> but it goes the other way to [APO]Arnelos> there are a few people, in particular, who do not believe it worth sending money unless they can be assured of competent military hands (such as your own) being the ones handling it without much interference. [CGN]SL3> it is because we didnt get the money when I was told we would that I allowed the turn to be played wrong [CGN]SL3> but once again this was our fault and not poly falt [APO]Arnelos> if we're going to send a loan, we'll have to overcome their votes I think [CGN]SL3> agree with furloaf [APO]Arnelos> huh? [CGN]SL3> wrong window [APO]Arnelos> ah [APO]Arnelos> hmm.... a significant portion of the team (more than I would have guessed) seems rather insistent upon screenshots before turns are played being part of any loan agreement. [APO]Arnelos> is it even possible? [CGN]SL3> what does giving screen shots before and after the turn acomplish? [APO]Arnelos> I think these members want to be able to view your military situation so that they can assess the situation and send their input. Admitedly, that may be an issue. [APO]Arnelos> hmm... perhaps we could use the embassy forum [APO]Arnelos> that wouldn't be as much trouble [CGN]SL3> yeah that is where trip and I argued last turn [APO]Arnelos> if you could post shots of turns in the embassy forum, conmcb25 could be responsible for reposting at Apolyton. That takes it off your hands for sending them. [APO]Arnelos> then people can offer whatever they want to offer. You can then take whatever advice is given both by your own team and any of our members and do what is best, I'd think. [CGN]SL3> My biggest problem right now is the last 2 turns have taken up about 19 hours of my time and the wife is pissed [APO]Arnelos> heh... I know about that [CGN]SL3> so if I add even more discussions and arguement it will take even longer [APO]Arnelos> <---- played warturns for Apolyton when fighting GCA [APO]Arnelos> it's a ***** [APO]Arnelos> well, on the upside, at least Apolyton members would be sending you advice that could be useful, but would not actually tie you do to more discussion time as with the polls on your own forum. I think hte issue is that members of the team want to at least be albe to provide advice. [CGN]SL3> okay [APO]Arnelos> good. I sure as hell hope that gets some votes on this. [CGN]SL3> as long as we get a min of 80 gold I will do shots before and after but once agin I dont think they are going to like my screen shots because many are complaining at cgn that I dont give enough info [APO]Arnelos> heh [APO]Arnelos> well, whatever you have [APO]Arnelos> some are insisting on the workers for money idea... [CGN]SL3> okay I will give apolyton the same shots I give CGN [APO]Arnelos> Does that work? the workers for money? [CGN]SL3> we have 20 workers I can try to give you 1 worker a turn [CGN]SL3> but workers and screen shots? [APO]Arnelos> heh. tell me about it [APO]Arnelos> the problem I have right now for getting a loan agreement passed *at all* is several different camps in the chatroom all wanting something that is part of the agreement. [APO]Arnelos> then again, the workers have another use [APO]Arnelos> one that I've been arguing with my team on for a while now [APO]Arnelos> the idea is that we give the workers back at war's end [APO]Arnelos> since they are your native pop, you can use them for a population boom [APO]Arnelos> and they can also be used for workers, of course, as native pop [CGN]SL3> and we dont have to risk transporting them [APO]Arnelos> precisely [APO]Arnelos> that was my idea, anyhow [CGN]SL3> but screen shots and workers? [APO]Arnelos> yeah, I know, it's a lot [APO]Arnelos> thing is, the team is mostly against the loan. [CGN]SL3> that is fine by me too [APO]Arnelos> what is fine by you? [CGN]SL3> not getting any loans [CGN]SL3> at least than I know how to plan my strategies [APO]Arnelos> heh [CGN]SL3> and I can tell everyone at cgn who keeps telling me we can still win but not telling me how that it is over [APO]Arnelos> true [CGN]SL3> I have to go, let me know what apolyton decides you can also tell micco or furloaf [APO]Arnelos> ok [CGN]SL3> they are both good at letting me know [APO]Arnelos> this is likely going to be quite a debate in our internal forum [CGN]SL3> yep [APO]Arnelos> we don't exactly have a lot of money to burn [CGN]SL3> bye [APO]Arnelos> cya

	10-04-2004 10:52									#318
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Alright, I am just straight up posting the test files for the chats that happened tonight. These are so huge it's pointless to even break down and summarize at the moment. (For those that were there, feel free to edit the appropriate sections of this post if you want to).

I will post 3 chat logs that all happened concurrently. If you are quite ambitious, you can read them all to see what was going on.


NOTE: YOU MAY WANT TO OPEN THESE IN WORDPAD
Since wordpad recognized line-breaks and notepad does not. It will look like a complete MESS in notepad. Sorry!

The meat and potatoes right here.
Joint CFC-CGN-APO Chat
CFC-CGN-APO Joint Chat

After awhile, things became a little cluttered, so we split things up into a separate chat with CFC to address some of their questions.
Separate CFC only chat

Lastly, here is the internal #ApolytonISDG chat so you can see what was happening behind the scenes.
Internal Apolyton Chat/Debate


*Note: All my time logs are denoted in HH:MM:SS, so you can get that super accurate feeling of what happened and when!

	11-04-2004 08:19									#319
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Short chat with miccofl as I attempted to figure out what the devil was going on with the loan agreement. Frankly, I'm not happy if what I've heard is true (apologies if it is not) about Trip going and trying to make an agreement with CGN on his own without consulting the other Consuls or the FAM and not posting the chatlog of whatever chatting he did with miccofl regarding it before playing the turn. This rushing to play the turn when there is a major outstanding issue is just something which should NOT be done. If there's a major issue, HOLD THE TURN! This should be common sense.

quote: Arnelos> miccofl - ok... what is this with what you guys agree to and what you do not? conmcb25_In_and_Out> Welcome Arny Arnelos> I need to know what CGN, *as a team* officially agrees to or, if we submit an agreement, what process you have to go through to get such an agreement then agreed to by your team. miccofl> it's not really a matter of agreement, but clarification Arnelos> ok, please explain Arnelos> I was under the impression that each team was taking the issues back for discussion and that we'd hold the save until we could come to an agreement. miccofl> SL was under the impression that it could be as high as 80 gold per worker (I found that a bit high but he said there was a discussion where it may be possible) miccofl> the offer of 20 per was not ruled out either Arnelos> hmm... that didn't come up in my chat with SL3... perhaps he chatted with someone else about that or it was part of the #isdgfamtalks discussion that I missed. con? E_T> not that I remember, but I can look up the loggs if you want? Arnelos> go for it conmcb25_In_and_Out> Ill look too but I dont remember that conmcb25_In_and_Out> wait one * E_T goes to dig them up Arnelos> I remember 20g being suggested by Togas. I remember that being batted about, it may have been mentioned that that was negoatiable (almost certainly), but I don't remember any other particular figures. miccofl> I didn't either Arnelos> Frankly, exact numbers are secondary to me in comparison to the larger issues, but we need the exact numbers nailed down as well to play the turn. Arnelos> Here's a question. If, you, the ambassador, agree to a "deal" with Apolyton, what is CGN's ratification mechanism? miccofl> everyone has gone for the evening, I would suggest you make the offer, I have posted the terms, if we agree to the terms we accept and will send at least 1 or 2 workers, if not we won't accept Arnelos> hmm... that seems rather dangerous. What if you don't accept the terms but a loan for slightly different (and mutually acceptable) terms would be workable? We'd be delaying an entire turn (potentially a rather critical one) over a minor difference, wouldn't we? miccofl> well it will be tomorrow sometime before anyone will notice and comment, so either way there is a delay conmcb25_In_and_Out> I scaned the whole chat nothing about 80 gold per worker conmcb25_In_and_Out> 20 gold per worker came up thats it. miccofl> would have been in a private window E_T> even in things muk14 was talking about? Arnelos> I think a delay of a day of realtime may not be as critical for you right now as a delay of a turn. no? miccofl> a delay of a day of realtime is of little consequence to us, you are the ones holding the turn though Arnelos> how much would a delay of a turn cost you? Arnelos> and would you expect your team to ratify what we send you? E_T> I think Arnie's Problem, is that we don't want to hold the save for too long and was counting on a delay from both teams (smaller for each, but longer overall) for further ratifications and stuff miccofl> you are speaking to a man who was espousing revoulution from within the Netatolian government earlier Arnelos> yes... I'm rather... surprised... that your team sent on the save so quickly Arnelos> holding the save in order to nail down the loan agreement was the impression I got from SL3 as to that you were planning for the turn miccofl> that was my doing miccofl> moving the game along with a cohesive plan was my intent miccofl> had we waited for more to show, cohesion would have turned into a cluster**** miccofl> and we might be building a shitload of warriors Arnelos> that much is true Arnelos> well, if need be, Apolyton can hold the save until a loan agreement is finalized E_T> how many of your people think that that is a sound strategy? miccofl> I just don't think a warrior rush against Ansars is going to be effective Arnelos> it won't Arnelos> on that, we fully agree Arnelos> we think it's absolutely insane, to be honest E_T> micco, :chuckle:, where did you find your those team members? miccofl> Happy Valley Sanatorium E_T> lol * conmcb25_In_and_Out wonders were they found muk14 miccofl> mongoose201 miccofl> muk is a russian living in Orlando Arnelos> anyhow.... I'm hesitant for Apolyton to send you guys an agreement that is not agreed to... an agreement which is rather turn-time critical, no? E_T> ah miccofl> yeah, pretty much Arnelos> I sorta want this *officially agreed to* before we go sending it. Arnelos> What is the fastest method your team is permitted to do that? miccofl> I work tomorrow but will make the appropriate notices and have someone get back to you ASAP Arnelos> ok, that would work Arnelos> any idea on how long? Arnelos> and, of course, we need to actually give you guys a finalized agreement ourselves Arnelos> to my knowledge, no such finalized agreement has even been agreed to by our government Arnelos> I think Trip made an offer Arnelos> but that's it Arnelos> we do have time on our side in some ways, though... tomorrow *is* Easter Arnelos> a delay would be understandable miccofl> Sorry folks, we will be holding the turn for our anual easter bunny hunt conmcb25_In_and_Out> Its a banana hunt miccofl> you don't hunt for bananas with a shotgun E_T> yp don't know our bananas Arnelos> miccofl - Apolyton will get you a finalized agreement as soon as we can Arnelos> time is of the essence for keeping th game moving, so we'll try to make it quick if we can

	11-04-2004 08:23									#320
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Another thing... there is all the world of difference between poking fun at an idea/plan and making fun of actual members of another team. I do not believe it to be prudent for us to be making fun of members of another team, no matter how inane their suggestions. We do not wish for members of our team to be viewed by other teams in the manner that most of us look at Goonie on CFC or similar characters. If we have disparaging things to say about members of other teams, let's keep that in here.

If you want to bash stupid plans, that's fair game. Just try to at least be reasonably tactful while still getting your point across (I said "we think it's absolutely insane, to be honest").

	11-04-2004 19:15									#321
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

SL3 will be around to chat later today

quote: [09:57] * SL3 has joined #isdg-embassy1 [09:57] * ChanServ sets mode: +o SL3 [09:57] [SL3> hello anyone here [09:58] [E_T_just_waking_up> I am [09:59] [SL3> can you give me the details on the trade [09:59] [E_T_just_waking_up> how are you this fine Easter AM [09:59] [E_T_just_waking_up> I'll see if I can try to get someone in here [09:59] [SL3> busy day [09:59] * E_T_just_waking_up smacks conmcb25_sleeping around a bit with Conmcb25's wife [10:00] [E_T_just_waking_up> [Arnelos> ok, heading to sleep.. I have a very early morning tomorrow [10:00] [E_T_just_waking_up> [Arnelos> I'll be online hopefully by early tomorrow afternoon [10:01] [SL3> okay [10:01] [E_T_just_waking_up> [Arnelos> MZ says he can be online then as well... apparently SL3 will be online [10:01] [E_T_just_waking_up> [Arnelos> hopefully Trip and Togas as well [10:01] [E_T_just_waking_up> [Arnelos> con, will you be around? [10:01] [E_T_just_waking_up> [conmcb25_sleeping> Yes [10:01] [E_T_just_waking_up> [Arnelos> good [10:01] [E_T_just_waking_up> [conmcb25_sleeping> any particular time? [10:01] [E_T_just_waking_up> [Arnelos> I'm guessing at some point between 1 p.m. EDT and 3 p.m. EDT or so [10:01] [E_T_just_waking_up> [Arnelos> hard to know for sure [10:01] [SL3> unfortunately I will be leaving in about 15 minutes and gone all day [10:02] [E_T_just_waking_up> when will you be back [10:02] [SL3> my best guess is no later than 8pm edt [10:02] * E_T_just_waking_up is now known as E_T_coffe_quest [10:02] * E_T_coffe_quest is now known as E_T_coffee_quest [10:03] [E_T_coffee_quest> K. I'll let them know [10:08] [E_T_coffee_quest> anything else? [10:09] [E_T_coffee_quest> posted in our forum, thanks for the heads up [10:16] [SL3> Well I'm leaving now, you can tell them yes for the trade but I was very thrilled about it. I see no reason to hold the turn. [10:17] [SL3> thanks E_T and I will be back later tonight

[EDIT] added in the last 2 lines [/edit]

E_T

	12-04-2004 01:36									#322
	Remove this text

After we finally worked out what to offer in internal chat (Togas, Trip, MZ, and myself all agreed on the offer. E_T and conmcb25 wanted a *slightly* different plan of 300g for 10 workers), the following took place in CGN's embassy channel just now:

quote: Arnelos> hey Arnelos> SL3? miccofl? Arnelos> anyone around? * miccofl is to skinny to be round or around Arnelos> lol Arnelos> heh Arnelos> anyhow, we're offering you guys 320g for 12 workers if you'll take it Arnelos> that is official Arnelos> that clears out our entire treasury Arnelos> short of a few spare coins miccofl> I just got in, have been arguing with SL over the logs since last eve, were it up to me I would accept - but it is not my decision Arnelos> now I'm wondering whether we should wait for you guys to accept or not to send the turn Arnelos> we should probably at least wait to see what SL3 says Arnelos> he said he'd be around this evening, right? miccofl> offer the deal, if it proves to be unacceptable, we will not accept it - that would be disshonorable Arnelos> true, I suppose my concern is (as stated before) what happens if you'd rather only take 240g with less workers or something like that miccofl> If he doesn't like the deal, we clear table and move on Arnelos> timing, I thought, was critical on your end miccofl> it is miccofl> problem is, wants exceed available options Arnelos> true... 320g is pretty much our entire treasury... we CAN'T give more than that miccofl> it is difficult sometimes to tell someone they must settle for less Arnelos> we spent our entire treasury on the last 600g loan and on deficit research miccofl> I know this, and you know this; trying to get that point sunk home to others is difficult miccofl> I thought my 3 lb hammer would do the job but perhaps I should break out the 8 miccofl> Fortunately SL and I alternate stress days miccofl> On the days he is stressed, I am usually ok, when I am stressed, he is the calming influence Arnelos> well, that's fortunate miccofl> but then there are the days when we are both stressed miccofl> but now I have vallium miccofl> just need the presence of mind to take one when needed miccofl> unfortunately the game stresses us both miccofl> him, because he is stuck with it and me, because I think GCA should have died long ago and I see them on the map interferring etc Arnelos> heh miccofl> takes 10 mg for me just to look at the turn Arnelos> well, GCA has been a source for a good deal of animosity over here, too... miccofl> I never should have shut my mouth when they first teleported Arnelos> anyhow... can you post about the offer? 320g for 12 workers. miccofl> SL3 and Dauphin both told me to accept mongoose201's decision miccofl> never should have done it Trip> :P miccofl> should have screamed bloody murder and stopped the game there Trip> what you should have done is never teleported from Boston :P miccofl> too friggin late now Trip> but what's done is done Trip> that was the biggest factor in what's happened the entire war Arnelos> 4Arnelos> anyhow... can you post about the offer? 320g for 12 workers. Trip> with no teleportation you could have withdrawn to the chokepoints with all your Pikes/Muskets and they couldn't have raced forward with their Ansar because you'd still have ~15 Knights Trip> but oh well miccofl> yeah well you deal with 5 different ideas supported by an equal number of people and make it work miccofl> and remember, those ideas change every turn miccofl> and yes I will post Arnelos> thanks E_T_coffee_quest> you learn to plot a course and tell them the realities and then let them choose, if they choose badly, then so be it E_T_coffee_quest> I did the same thing in our first SPDG, had different things going on, different directions wanting to be done with and I put a stop to that E_T_coffee_quest> basically, I showed them what could be done in relation to their wants, then I put it to a confidence poll, and got 83% (IIRC), confidence in what I was doing and where I was taking things to E_T_coffee_quest> that shut up most but a few detractors, but we succeeded beyond everyones wildest dreams Trip> all democracy is good for is making everyone feel special :P Arnelos> lol miccofl> This is how I am wording the poll: miccofl> quote: [16:01:55] Arnelos> anyhow, we're offering you guys 320g for 12 workers if you'll take it [16:02:00] Arnelos> that is official [16:02:09] Arnelos> that clears out our entire treasury [16:02:20] Arnelos> short of a few spare coins miccofl> miccofl> They will offer this on the current turn, if we agree, we accept and deliver 12 workers as soon as we are able to. If we do not, we clear table on the deal and refuse. E_T_coffee_quest> hey, you have just GOT to know how to lead people Trip> when you give everyone a tangible say in what goes on it is chaos * Arnelos wonders if Trip realizes he's logging this chat miccofl> I know how to lead from a point of absolute power, the trick is in the democracy E_T_coffee_quest> you give them what YOU want them to hear, then let them think that they are making the right desisions Trip> I'm fully aware of that Arne * Arnelos considers censoring the log Trip> LoL Trip> the best possibility is to have things planned out in advance Trip> so that people can see where you're leading them Trip> when you have to make split-second democratic decisions that's when things fall apart Trip> however, letting people determine what to do collectively beforehand works fine miccofl> You have a marvelous flair for the obvious E_T_coffee_quest> but you give them as much imformation as is possible, so that it blows away all of the clouds of smoke from those funny cigarettes.... miccofl> our original MoD was struck down by ***** Trip> position of MOW is best of them all, IMO Trip> well, when there's wars anyways miccofl> MoD=MoW Trip> right Trip> the original name was MoD at Apolytonia too :P Trip> but I changed that miccofl> So anyhow, if you offer the deal pre-accepted - I will personally guarantee that we will either accept the deal in good faith, or refuse it outright depending on the outcome of the poll I am about to create. miccofl> As a forum admin I will uphold our honor miccofl> I don't often brandish the mod rod, but I will in this case miccofl> poll is up Arnelos> miccofl - just so you know, we're going to go ahead and send the save, having sent 320g to you guys accepted. You can accept or deny as you said. Arnelos> Trip wanted to play on and I've given in on that. So here's hoping you guys accept the deal. E_T_coffee_quest> If you guys do accept it, how are we going to get the workers to us? miccofl> Understood with our thanks, however it turns out Arnelos> they send the workers as they become available in Arhus as ACCEPTED diplomatic deal Arnelos> *deals miccofl> we will have to give you a city miccofl> or has the city thing been confirmed absolutely Arnelos> we need to check that E_T_coffee_quest> or they can wait until 600AD, when we will have that one city ready for you Trip> if CGN gifts us a city (Orlando, probably) then we can do the deal as soon as they can get Workers to Arhus miccofl> Orlando would flip like a live frog on a flattop grill E_T_coffee_quest> only need it for 1 turn miccofl> we cannot give you 12 workers on one turn miccofl> it is not logistically possible Trip> yeah Trip> you don't have to accept the Orlando flip though E_T_coffee_quest> ah Trip> it's not automatic you know, you have to accept it :P E_T_coffee_quest> just realised that while I was tying miccofl> this is true, I always forget that as I always take the little flipper \ Trip> yeah Trip> we discussed that back when GCA moved miccofl> can someone get ahold of coracle and get a confirmation on this?

	12-04-2004 08:28									#323
	CGN in Palace Revolt and discussion on Military matters Got spare money?

Summery
- Miccofl has initiated a Palace Revolt in CGN's ranks
- Discussion on CGN gifting us a city for the worker transfer
- Trip attempting to advise them on Military matters

Note: I was cut off and had to reboot my DSL connection twice, so I don't know if those last 2 lines that I had typed in had made it through.

quote: [16:38] [miccofl> and I must kill democracy [16:38] [miccofl> at least the monster passing itself off as democracy that I have created [16:38] * Arnelos is now known as Arnelos_AWAY [16:40] * E_T_coffee_quest goes to pet the cute little Monster [16:40] [E_T_coffee_quest> Ah, he's nopt so bad.... [16:46] * miccofl dials 911 and put's E_T_coffee_quest's hand in a bag for later reattachment [16:46] [miccofl> so many accidents at holiday time [16:54] [E_T_coffee_quest> Ah, it's only a scratch [16:55] * E_T_coffee_quest says that while his blood is pumping out of the open wound... [16:55] * E_T_coffee_quest is now known as E_T[hanging_out] [16:55] [miccofl> just a scratch, eh? [16:55] * miccofl hands E_T the mop [17:23] * miccofl just lit the Netatolian Constitution on fire [17:24] [Trip> woo hoo! [17:31] [miccofl> should be an interesting poll [17:32] [E_T[hanging_out]> I think you'll need the mop back [17:32] * E_T[hanging_out] would love to be a fly on the wall for that one [17:33] [miccofl> One of my usual inspiring speeches with the following choices [17:33] [miccofl> Choice 1: Everything stays as it is stop the constitution from burning. [17:33] [miccofl> [17:33] [miccofl> Choice 2: Declare shadowlord3 Emperor and give him absolute authority in all matters, he may appoint whatever staff he feels necessary to do the job, but his plan is the plan. [17:33] [miccofl> [17:33] [miccofl> Choice 3: Declare muk14 Emperor and give him absolute authority in all matters, he may appoint whatever staff he feels necessary to do the job, but his plan is the plan. [17:33] [miccofl> [17:33] [miccofl> Choice 4: Declare Furloaf Emperor and give him absolute authority in all matters, he may appoint whatever staff he feels necessary to do the job, but his plan is the plan. [17:33] [miccofl> [17:33] [miccofl> Choice 5: Declare brian_the_bold Emperor and give him absolute authority in all matters, he may appoint whatever staff he feels necessary to do the job, but his plan is the plan. [17:33] [miccofl> [17:33] [miccofl> Choice 6: Declare miccofl Emperor and give him absolute authority in all matters, he may appoint whatever staff he feels necessary to do the job, but his plan is the plan. [17:33] [miccofl> [17:33] [miccofl> Choice 7: Abandon the game (you can vote for this but it’s not happening.) [17:33] [Trip> haha [17:33] [Trip> any chance of those passing? :P [17:33] [miccofl> they get to choose 1 [17:34] * E_T[hanging_out] see them voting you back [17:34] [miccofl> most votes wins [17:34] [miccofl> it's ok, I have a good supply of vallium [17:34] [E_T[hanging_out]> It would be interesting to read teh text of that speech [17:35] [miccofl> Here is the message that has just been posted: [17:35] [miccofl> *************** [17:35] [miccofl> Back when this thing started, we all had this grand vision of our civilization rising to power and dominating the world. We had our government, with its elected officials, selected by the people to do their jobs and further our aims and goals. And we had aims and goals; our ministers put forth plans and the chief executive implemented them. Then the first minister dropped out, replaced by someone who was really not up to the task; t [17:35] [miccofl> [17:35] [miccofl> Then we lost another minister, and another – some were replaced but the MoD was not, and we were at war. Our only recourse it seemed was to rely on democracy to prevail. As you all can see, this has failed us miserably and I must accept full responsibility for that, as I allowed it to happen. What we have is anarchy on the battlefield. Every turn the plan changes, every group that participates in chat changes the plan. [17:35] [Trip> well [17:35] [miccofl> [17:35] [miccofl> Don’t get me wrong, everyone’s participation in this is welcomed and appreciated, but when the very democracy we are trying to protect is killing us by its very nature, we have a problem. [17:35] [miccofl> [17:35] [miccofl> There is only one copy of the Netatolian constitution. It is inside my head and I just flicked my bic underneath it (for a visual see Furloaf’s avatar.) We need a dictatorship, or at least a monarch to rule and direct. One plan, to be implemented by one man to save our asses (or at least kill as many of them as possible before we all die.) [17:35] [miccofl> [17:35] [miccofl> I therefore move for the immediate dissolution of the Neatolian government. All positions are vacant and only one is available. All pending agreements with other civilizations will be honored (this is administrative – our honor above all.) [17:35] [miccofl> [17:35] [miccofl> This poll will have 7 choices, you may vote for only one. [17:36] [Trip> any chance of things changing? :P [17:36] [Trip> how discontented are people with the current system? [17:36] [miccofl> we shall see [17:36] [miccofl> easy to confuse discontent with apathy and confusion [17:37] [E_T[hanging_out]> what kind of support does muk14 have? [17:37] [miccofl> not quite a Ralph Nader [17:38] [E_T[hanging_out]> none practically [17:38] * miccofl actually thinks btb will get more votes [17:38] [Trip> haha [17:39] [E_T[hanging_out]> I'm wondering, why you all let him take the floor so much at that chat, does he have a government position or is he just a citizen? [17:39] * miccofl still gets red faced when he thinks about muk14 in the Grand Chat II [17:39] [miccofl> Sl3 appointed him MoD [17:39] [miccofl> although I think he regrets that [17:40] [E_T[hanging_out]> Ah, so what you have basically done, is have him fired without actually saying it to his face [17:40] [miccofl> If I am elected, I might be inclined to hire mercenaries [17:40] [Trip> hehe [17:41] [E_T[hanging_out]> when he has taken the lead in the conferance, we all were under the impression that he was completely speaking for Netolia [17:41] [miccofl> ooops [17:41] [E_T[hanging_out]> ohhh, softserve icecream truck coming by, brb [17:42] [miccofl> perhaps my fault, chat was late for me and when i saw SL posting i just sat back [17:44] [miccofl> honestly we were all shocked by his "strategy" [17:45] [miccofl> I think it was one of the reasons the last turn's chat wasn't posted [17:45] [Trip> frankly [17:46] [Trip> Horses against Ansar aren't much worse than Knights against Ansar [17:46] [miccofl> yeah, but a warrior rush against ansar is like ants vs the anteater [17:48] [miccofl> hopefully GWT will hold for their usual 36-48 [17:49] [E_T[hanging_out]> can never tell [17:49] [miccofl> yeah, that Murphy is an sob [17:50] [Trip> just don't attack anything unless there's no Pikes :P [17:53] [miccofl> I will take that as situational [17:54] [miccofl> Say, if they were to leave that stack of cats with only one pike defending and I have 5 horses, those cats are mine [17:55] [Trip> well, yeah [17:55] [Trip> just don't expect to be able to take down their main stack with what you have [17:56] * miccofl bows to Trip's flair for the obvious [17:56] [miccofl> but then remembers muk14 and btb in chat [17:58] [miccofl> but at least they are not like that [insert long string of **** words] that PAL had on their team in C3CIDG [17:59] * E_T[hanging_out] takes it that they are a disrupting influance [17:59] [miccofl> yeah, but they are interested, dedicated and mean well [17:59] [E_T[hanging_out]> that can cut both ways [18:00] [miccofl> of course that and $1.37 gets you a big coffee at the cumby [18:00] [Trip> miccofl: well, you are busy defending Waterloo with half your Muskets [18:00] [miccofl> couldn't budge him on that one last turn [18:00] [miccofl> only point I chose to argue too [18:00] * Trip shakes his head [18:01] [Trip> their entire army is carving up your west [18:01] [Trip> while half your defenses are covering a useless point that they can completely ignore [18:01] [Trip> if I were GWT and knew this, I would be excited beyond words [18:01] [E_T[hanging_out]> they are likely looking across and waiting for the main stack to come up from the other side, to finish you off [18:01] [miccofl> the word you are looking for is orgasmic [18:02] [E_T[hanging_out]> Hmmm, to really think about it, they will take everthing else and leave waterloo for last [18:02] [miccofl> I had a way around that, cost two turns, but they would have been unseen [18:03] [Trip> E_T: that's been my point the last week :P [18:03] [Trip> they have no reason to attack that point [18:04] * miccofl reaches for the vallium [18:04] [Trip> they'll just keep 4 Pikes in their own chokepoint, pinning all those units in Waterloo until there's nothing left [18:04] [E_T[hanging_out]> you and I see that [18:04] [Trip> it's fundamental strategic doctrine :P [18:05] [Trip> pin on one flank, hit hard on the other [18:11] [miccofl> how's that commercial go? "Rub it in - rub it in..." [18:11] [Trip> hey, it's your team [18:12] [miccofl> you also must understand that this was our first venture into democracy games - none of us had ever been in one before this [18:13] [E_T[hanging_out]> should have been doing a SP game at the same time [18:13] [E_T[hanging_out]> if anything, you learn what works and what doesn;t in that [18:14] [Trip> you learn over the progression of the game [18:14] [Trip> teams in the Apolyton PTWDG are doing infinitely better than when they started [18:14] [miccofl> with a team roster of 22 and active participation between 7-12... [18:15] [E_T[hanging_out]> Oh, the fights we would have in the public forum [18:15] [Trip> thinking about GOW's buildup early on in the game still makes me giggle [18:15] [Trip> they had like 2 Horsemen and 2 Workers for the looooooongest time [18:15] [E_T[hanging_out]> one thing that a lot of us liked about this game, no real central place that you could start something like that [18:15] [miccofl> that's just it, the forum has no real argument but our trun chats can top 60K [18:16] [Trip> you need things outlined better in the forum [18:16] [Trip> plans to be agreed to by the populace then [18:16] [E_T[hanging_out]> this was between the different teams [18:16] [Trip> so that the issues aren't argued about later on [18:17] [miccofl> well you have seen my declaration of war against the frogs right? [18:17] [E_T[hanging_out]> yeah, when you go into chat to play the turn, you should have a fairly clear idea what your going to do [18:17] [Trip> yeah, a few months back [18:17] [miccofl> yeah, well the thinking doesn't start until the topic changes [18:17] [E_T[hanging_out]> and then you react to things that might be different, but that is what contingancy planning is all about, too [18:18] [miccofl> at least for some [18:18] [miccofl> they are the problem [18:19] [E_T[hanging_out]> for us, we have a large lurker community of members and we have to try to make sure that they are included in as much of the desision making as is possible [18:19] [miccofl> but how far do you let it go? [18:20] [miccofl> we have carried it into unit orders [18:20] [miccofl> a unit may not attack with out a mjority vote (in turn chat) [18:20] [miccofl> or move for that matter [18:20] [E_T[hanging_out]> that where we are different, we have the consuls to make the final desisions, to weigh all of the discussions and then to chart the course [18:21] [E_T[hanging_out]> but then, we also follow a broad outline of what we want to accomplish and that is debated and voted on by everyone [18:21] [miccofl> to me, the Premier was more a manager, someone who brought all the peices together and made it work [18:21] [miccofl> but then the pieces dissapearedd [18:25] [miccofl> my two german members haven't been seen other than a vote here and there since the war with GWT, unfortunate as one is an excellent tactician [18:28] [miccofl> interesting: muk14 intends to campaign [18:29] [miccofl> I guess I better vote for me or people will get the wrong idea [18:30] [conmcb25> campaign for what? [18:31] [miccofl> now that I look, I'm not sure - he voted to keep the constitution [18:33] [miccofl> btb votes for SL3 [18:34] [miccofl> VB3 has some interesting features [18:36] [miccofl> if you select the right box everyone can see who voted for what [18:42] [miccofl> A question has been raised regarding the return of the sold workers; how and under what conditions is that going to work? [18:59] [conmcb25> We are checking right now Miccofl [19:00] [miccofl> cool, I'm debating - let me know when you have an answer [19:00] [E_T[hanging_out]> actually, we are trying to wake everyone up [19:01] [miccofl> Ham stupor? [19:01] [SL3_GoneForTheDay> hello [19:01] * SL3_GoneForTheDay is now known as SL3 [19:01] [conmcb25> Must be [19:01] [conmcb25> [19:01] [conmcb25> HI SL3 [19:02] [SL3> I had a question about the city [19:02] [SL3> did you plan to give the city back or did you want to keep it [19:02] [SL3> also does it have to be orlnado or could it be RC or Waterloo? [19:05] [E_T[hanging_out]> [19:01] [miccofl> Ham stupor? [19:05] [E_T[hanging_out]> well, without the ham.... [19:06] [Trip> it can be any city [19:06] [Trip> but we have to have it in order for you to send the Workers to us :P [19:07] [Trip> we don't need to keep it [19:07] [Trip> why RC or Waterloo? [19:08] [miccofl> can't do waterloo, full of units [19:08] [E_T[hanging_out]> and it would be defenceless when we get it [19:08] [Trip> which is a problem in itself [19:08] [Trip> but they're your units :P [19:09] [miccofl> yes and they would teleport and that is now illegal [19:09] [Trip> could move them out first :P [19:09] [Trip> but that wouldn't really work [19:10] [Trip> you have to gift us a city one turn, we accept on ours, and then you can send the Workers to us the following turn [19:10] [Trip> that would leave RC or Waterloo open for at least 1 turn [19:10] [Trip> and you said that you can't deliver the Workers all at once [19:10] [Trip> so we'll have to have the city for multiple turns [19:11] [E_T[hanging_out]> what are you currently building in Orlando? [19:11] [SL3> having units in the city isnt a problem we would just move them out before gifting [19:11] [SL3> why waterloo, because every one says we dont need it so why not give it to you. [19:12] [Trip> well, yes [19:12] [Trip> but GWT would capture it [19:12] [E_T[hanging_out]> yep, just walk right in there, could take it with a worker [19:12] [SL3> and they would capture it if we move the units out anyways [19:13] [Trip> you could withdraw and raze it [19:13] [miccofl> but if you wer going to do that, the units should have moved last turn [19:13] [SL3> why [19:14] [SL3> gifting a city with no units inside is not illegal [19:14] [miccofl> to be a turn ahead of where they are now [19:15] [E_T[hanging_out]> do you have a crappy city that does nothing really for teh war effort, something away from the front? [19:15] [SL3> and we would have lost waterloo and not been able to gift it this turn [19:16] [SL3> yes E_T [19:16] [E_T[hanging_out]> what city is that? [19:16] [SL3> but Orlando or RC would be my choices [19:16] [Trip> Orlando would be best [19:16] [Trip> as this will be a multi-turn deal [19:16] [Trip> and they will capture RC in one turn [19:18] [miccofl> I have to agree, Orlando is the best choice at this time [19:19] * conmcb25 is now known as conmcb25_away [19:20] [Trip> I know I'm a broken record, but RC and especially Waterloo are really hurting you [19:20] [Trip> as their main army heads west those units are needed more and more [19:21] [SL3> how is RC hurting us? [19:22] [miccofl> gonna defend Waterloo to the death, right SL? [19:22] [Trip> Arlington can protect your northern and eastern front... trying to hold RC in the north and Arlington in the east still ends up being 2 fronts [19:23] [SL3> arlington can not defend the east [19:23] [SL3> and yes Micco [19:24] [Trip> like I said before, a stack between Arlington and Saxton can defend both the north and the east [19:24] [SL3> and RC is not defending the north [19:24] [miccofl> sorry, that is the one point that made me make the second poll the way I did (and the reason I voted for myself) [19:24] [SL3> that is fine and I hope you win [19:24] [miccofl> gonna vote for me [19:24] [SL3> yep [19:25] [miccofl> [19:25] [Trip> currently they have three routes of advance... one through Waterloo westwards, one south from April 1st, and another south from Columbus towards Sevenoaks and Washington [19:25] [Trip> withdrawing from RC and Waterloo consolidate the April 1st and Waterloo advance routes [19:25] [SL3> after losing my 4th war arguement in a row at agibcourt and getting our butts kicked 4 times in a row I dont care anymore [19:25] [Trip> since you can place a single army between Arlington and Saxton [19:25] * E_T[hanging_out] hands Miccofl a years supply of Valium, you'll need it chum... [19:26] * miccofl hopes those are the 20 mg imports he's been getting... [19:26] [SL3> trip there is no sense in you and I to continue to argue about waterloo and arlington/saxton [19:26] [SL3> you have you opinion and I have mine [19:27] [miccofl> has an irresistable force stricken an immovable object? [19:29] [Trip> :P [19:29] [SL3> the point is everyone says to move the units from waterloo to the front and that leaves no units to defend the arlington/saxton [19:29] [Trip> I disagree, you just have to split the units you have accordingly [19:30] [Trip> you still have quite a few [19:30] [Trip> half for Sevenoaks-Washington front, the other half for Arlington-Saxton [19:30] [SL3> yeah maybe we can use our knights as defenders again [19:30] [Trip> right now you have 3 areas to defend, I don't see how withdrawing and reducing that to 2 can be bad [19:30] [E_T[hanging_out]> Trip, lets stick to advice and let them make their own desisions [19:30] [SL3> because it is still 3 areas [19:30] [SL3> and soon to be 4 [19:31] [E_T[hanging_out]> I know your motivation is to protect the money that we have already invested, but lets just keep it to advice and not argue about it [19:31] * Trip shrugs [19:32] [Trip> not my army, not my cities [19:32] * Trip goes on to other things [19:33] [E_T[hanging_out]> that's right, unfortunately, I know you want to give the GWT/GCA all that you can give them, but that will have to wait for when we work on reinvading this contenent [19:40] [miccofl> would it be possible to get a location on the city that you are graciously preparing for us, it would be of help in determining "contingency" plans [19:41] [Trip> we are currently debating that [19:42] [Trip> trying to balance a location with security and productive capability [19:45] [miccofl> we are grateful that you are treating our welfare with such careful consideration [19:47] [Trip> crossing over from Tampere to Memoria Firaxia is the best location, in any case [19:47] [miccofl> Tampere was destroyed last turn [19:50] [Trip> right, but you can still cross over [19:50] [E_T[hanging_out]> one plan was to give you a city on our far north coast, with you keeping a settler in our interior, incase an invasion from other contenent goes badly at first [19:50] [E_T[hanging_out]> but as trip stated, it's still being debated [19:50] * Disconnected

E_T

	23-04-2004 19:38									#324
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Chat with CFC last night (about 12 hours ago)

quote: * Trip has joined #demogame_cfc_embassy * DX_Zoi has joined #demogame_cfc_embassy Trip> hello DX_Zoi> hi, whats up Trip> I believe MZ sent you the save last? (twice, actually) DX_Zoi> yeah, I got that save and sent *** on DX_Zoi> was asking you about the C3C save DX_Zoi> received 2 shipmets of Dyes BTW.... Chieftess> must be a resource to dye for.. Trip> hmm Trip> ohhh Chieftess> IT's one of the bugs/exploits in the game Trip> one sec Trip> did you go into disorder this timw? DX_Zoi> yes, still did Trip> DX_Zoi> no biggie...only 4 cities DX_Zoi> I will have to work around it in two turns when Silks need to renew DX_Zoi> actually will need to prepare next turn Trip> yeah Trip> even when you resend the deal on the right turn it doesn't take effect right away Trip> C3C save resent DX_Zoi> thanks :0 DX_Zoi> regarding tech, I was thinking............ DX_Zoi> we would like to be in a position to research our own tech once we finish PPress in 29 turns Trip> okay Trip> that would be good DX_Zoi> I think that could come in handy once we hit Industrial DX_Zoi> also, we will not be able to sdisconnect Iron DX_Zoi> as we have a productive city founded on Iron DX_Zoi> But even with Riders, I still project 40-50 in a 50 turn span....prhaps more Trip> that's a lot Trip> you may want to focus more on infrastructure for the time being DX_Zoi> we can still work to upgrade pikes and cats though Trip> we want to be able to invade with Cavalry Trip> will need some cash to upgrade that Trip> as well as build a navy DX_Zoi> I am aware of all these things DX_Zoi> we will be making a settlement push over the next 30 turns as well DX_Zoi> so, basically, the 30-turn mark is an important one for us conmcb25[APO_OnCallDiplomat]> Good I was wondring why you were not rex ing more DX_Zoi> We wanted to solidify oiur core cities for production and commerce, as well as designate two worker/settler factories DX_Zoi> now that we have maxed most of our cities for allowable happiness, we can move to stage 2 DX_Zoi> was there anything else that needed discussion? Trip> not that I can think of Trip> things not moving so fast these days DX_Zoi> no kiddin..... DX_Zoi> hey, if I attached the 40gpt to the Silks deal, would it still expire after 20 turns in PBEM? DX_Zoi> If not, then I can send you 40gpt unaccepted next turn, you should be able to attache the Silks and accept the deal the next turn DX_Zoi> sound like a plan? Trip> yeah Trip> sounds good Trip> it may skip a turn though Trip> we'll have to see DX_Zoi> I can send the 40g as well, then DX_Zoi> or we can clear it up afterward DX_Zoi> I am good for it.... Trip> hehe

	24-04-2004 17:17									#325
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Chat with CFC last night about 7 hours ago.

Can someone clean up the chat, I dont have time to do it this morning, Thanks:

quote: [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Soory I was PBEMing [@Bootstoots] wb * E_T[APO-MoI] is releaved.... [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Hey how is everyone? [!CivGeneral] good [@Bootstoots] just fine [E_T[APO-MoI]] you need to turn your highlight on.... [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Good [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] We were wondering what is going on with the 40 gold per turn [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Its helps us both with research [E_T[APO-MoI]] it wouldn't be too much of a problem, but with the money that we recently sent CGN, we are just about broke [E_T[APO-MoI]] it's good that we left a slight buffer to work from, incase of this [@Bootstoots] i'll check to see what our financial situation is like [E_T[APO-MoI]] from what DZ has told us, it's just been oversights [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Thanks [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] There may have been something with the silks as well, Trip and DZ had a conversation last night about that [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] But I did n't follow it very well [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Can you guys verify it will start again? [@Bootstoots] yes, we will need the silks deal renewed [@Bootstoots] I will see [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Yes we know [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] I think the gold may have been part of that Im not sure [@Bootstoots] I'll make a post in the forum about that, to see if this was just an oversight [E_T[APO-MoI]] I don't know why the dye deal didn't go through [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] And the easy thing to do is set it up for 20 turns then we dont have to worry about it [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] you get the dyes [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] we get the gold [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] then we worry about it again in twenty turns [E_T[APO-MoI]] maybe we need to get fully into the turn and send it instead of the preturn diplo stuff when we get the map trades [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Thats possible [E_T[APO-MoI]] but we already have the silk part set up in our turn orders for this turn [@Bootstoots] ok [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] what about this we send silk unaccepted [@Bootstoots] posted, I'll let people from our team who know more about the current state of the game deal with it from here [E_T[APO-MoI]] K [@Bootstoots] I think that would work [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] They send 40 gold as the counter offer [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Then we accept next turn and its set for 20 [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] turns [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] How is your happiness? [E_T[APO-MoI]] Or accept, then exit and then reenter and do the other deal [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Is that anissue? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] I thought DZaid something about cities in disorder? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] DZ said [@Bootstoots] yes, the dyes deal caused several cities to fall into disorder [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Hmm then maybe you need to accept this turn [@Bootstoots] oddly enough, the citizens were happy in those cities...apparently a quirk of the game [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] E_T ideas on this? [E_T[APO-MoI]] the thing that you have to watch out for, is that they sneak up on you at times [E_T[APO-MoI]] it's best to change the Slider sometimes, just to see your "ACTUAL" things going in in the cities [E_T[APO-MoI]] and the diplo thing, you should have had us retry it again [E_T[APO-MoI]] especailly, as we are right before you all [@Bootstoots] yeah [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Yes but I think we need to send accepted this turn [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] the dyes [E_T[APO-MoI]] IIRC, we had something similar with CGN, and the money that we had sent them [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and do it mid game not at the beginning [E_T[APO-MoI]] I think, that they had sent us something and we had turned around and sent them that money at the same time [E_T[APO-MoI]] what Arnelos had done. to fix it was to finish the one thing, exit and reenter and send that other deal [E_T[APO-MoI]] and it worked.... [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Ok we need to do that then [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and so does the CFC turn player [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] accept the dyes [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] exit the diplo screen [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] reenter and send the 40 gold per turn [E_T[APO-MoI]] but the thing is, if this happens again, please don't play through and let us know and we can try severl different things to get it to work right [@Bootstoots] ok [E_T[APO-MoI]] we can even try and just send a dummy save, while in chat with you guys, see if it works, then repeat with our real turn and recheck that [E_T[APO-MoI]] the thing is, that we both keep on the same page and work as much together as is possible, even with this little game bug ****... [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Very true [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Losing 4 cities to disorder SUCKS over a little game quirk * conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall} shudders to think of the lost sheilds commerce and science [E_T[APO-MoI]] shoot, loosing one for me would be a scheadualling nightmare [@Bootstoots] yeah...we'll get over it though [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Ok so are we agreed? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Let me sum up: [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] We send dyes accepted to you midgame. [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] You accept the dyes (mid game) * Chieftess is now known as CT_Away * %CT_Away is away: auto-away after 30m idle [E_T[APO-MoI]] and renegote the silks, too [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Back out of diplo screen [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] reeenter and send us 40 GPT [@Bootstoots] I believe so [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Sond right boots? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and lets make it a point for someone from Apoly to be here when you get ready to play [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Or someone from CFC be in our chat room. [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] We need to make sure this works [E_T[APO-MoI]] I try to be, but if anything, they do have our e-mail addy [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Sound like a plan? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] email as back up [E_T[APO-MoI]] and they can also go to our embassey channel on 'Poly, if push comes to shove * conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall} thinks he just said that [@Bootstoots] I'm going to have to confirm this with people on CFC who actually know much about what's going on in the game though [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] OK [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Cn you check and then send us an email or a PM? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Can [E_T[APO-MoI]] Oh, have any of you guys seen the Reality-PBEM over at MZO, it's funny as hell, especially Whitebandit's reports * DX_Zoi has joined #demogame_cfc_embassy [E_T[APO-MoI]] Hey, it's CFC's leader.... Hey DZ [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] hey DZ [@Bootstoots] hey DZ [DX_Zoi] Just got the message....thanks Boots [@Bootstoots] I'll let DZ take over from here [DX_Zoi] hi guys...so what happened? [E_T[APO-MoI]] thanks Boots [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] lemme repost the wrap up [E_T[APO-MoI]] k [DX_Zoi] thanks [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] here comes!!!! [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Ok so are we agreed? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Let me sum up: [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] We send dyes accepted to you midgame. [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] You accept the dyes (mid game) [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] * Chieftess is now known as CT_Away [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] * %CT_Away is away: auto-away after 30m idle [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [E_T[APO-MoI]] and renegote the silks, too [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Back out of diplo screen [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] reeenter and send us 40 GPT [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [@Bootstoots] I believe so [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Sond right boots? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and lets make it a point for someone from Apoly to be here when you get ready to play [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Or someone from CFC be in our chat room. [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] We need to make sure this works [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [E_T[APO-MoI]] I try to be, but if anything, they do have our e-mail addy [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Sound like a plan? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] email as back up [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [E_T[APO-MoI]] and they can also go to our embassey channel on 'Poly, if push comes to shove [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] * conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall} thinks he just said that [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [@Bootstoots] I'm going to have to confirm this with people on CFC who actually know much about what's going on in the game though [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] OK [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Cn you check and then send us an email or a PM? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Can [E_T[APO-MoI]] Basically, DZ, if you had let us know that you all still didn't get the Dyes, then we could have tried something else to get it to work right [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Yes [E_T[APO-MoI]] especially with you all right after us [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and we need to get religion again on the gold per turn for research [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] especially after the CGN assistanc sucked us dry [E_T[APO-MoI]] because, we didn't get it again this turn [DX_Zoi] we got the Dyes, but it was a split second too late [DX_Zoi] you didn't? [DX_Zoi] I will have to check [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] OK [E_T[APO-MoI]] Hmmm, then the civil disorder comes BEFORE the diplo screen [DX_Zoi] one ogf the reasons I suggested attaching the 40gpt to the Silks deal [DX_Zoi] Can you renegote an existing Trade deal? aka Dyes? [DX_Zoi] yep [DX_Zoi] I won't be able to tell until I see the treasury from next turn [E_T[APO-MoI]] hey, if it made thing easier for you, you can just send us the standard 20 turn, 40 GPT deal [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] That would work [!CivGeneral] Hi DZ [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and then we wouldn't have to worry for 20 turns [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] hey civgen [DX_Zoi] But will attaching the gpt to the trade deal allow it to extend past the 20 turns, or will it expire automatically no matter hwat? [DX_Zoi] hey CG [E_T[APO-MoI]] and if thing go to where more is being sent, that can always be done as a separate one time deal [DX_Zoi] exactly [E_T[APO-MoI]] you do them separate [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] HMMMMMMMMMMMM [E_T[APO-MoI]] it should work like this [DX_Zoi] I think the gpt deal will offset my, um, memory issues [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] I think you have to renogotiate [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] he he [E_T[APO-MoI]] we send you silks, accepted, you accept at begining of turn [DX_Zoi] ok [DX_Zoi] got that [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] i didn't exactly want to say that DZ but now that you mention it [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [E_T[APO-MoI]] then, after you have gotten into the turn, you go and send us the 40 GPT, accepted and we get that next turn [DX_Zoi] sounds like a plan [E_T[APO-MoI]] you're using those Incenses that you all have a little too much..... [DX_Zoi] Is Silks up for renewal this turn? or next? [E_T[APO-MoI]] this turn [E_T[APO-MoI]] but you DID get the dyes, it was just too later for the civil disorder, right? [DX_Zoi] right....actually, we got 2 shipments of Dyes [DX_Zoi] Dyes/World map/ Dyes [E_T[APO-MoI]] well, "there can only be one...." [E_T[APO-MoI]] hehe [DX_Zoi] so if you ever trade with someone, we can broker the deal free of charge [DX_Zoi] Oh yeah, no to change the subject but in other news............ [DX_Zoi] we got a trade offer from GWT. they now have GP [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] well before we go on do we all agree? [E_T[APO-MoI]] Oh, and what did you tell them? [DX_Zoi] In case you are wondering, e are trying to appear cordial for the eventual sneak attack [DX_Zoi] yes, it works for me...if I can remember all that o_O [DX_Zoi] [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] OK [E_T[APO-MoI]] Shoot, that spoiled the surprise..... [DX_Zoi] I did not respond yet [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] just have someone in chat with us when you play [E_T[APO-MoI]] or let us know immediately, and we will replay as many times to make sure that we get it right [DX_Zoi] problem is, I cannot access your chat room anymore [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] then send us an email or a PM [DX_Zoi] java tells me its "not initized" [E_T[APO-MoI]] Well, I'm trying to be here as much as possible [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and we will come here [DX_Zoi] np [DX_Zoi] when will you have the save ready? [E_T[APO-MoI]] We actually got a dummy save from CGN, as they still haven;t played yet [E_T[APO-MoI]] because of the GWT news with GP [DX_Zoi] so probably tomorrow or Sunday note? [DX_Zoi] right [E_T[APO-MoI]] we were going to let it be a surprise and have you open your save and see GP, accepted, all ready for you [E_T[APO-MoI]] and GCA has taken Waterloo [DX_Zoi] how much are Musketmen again? [DX_Zoi] shields? [DX_Zoi] and how much to upgrade Pike to Musket] [E_T[APO-MoI]] I can't remember, you guys do have 2 sources, but both are not connected yet [DX_Zoi] cool, all I need to know [DX_Zoi] [DX_Zoi] just wanted to make sure I can do the Pike upgrade thing [E_T[APO-MoI]] one is right where GCA had that city on the inland sea coast [DX_Zoi] Will not be able to build horsemen though [E_T[APO-MoI]] yes, I know [E_T[APO-MoI]] that's what happens to make sure you keep the Iron during a war.... [DX_Zoi] will be better for us anyway, I think [E_T[APO-MoI]] I think so, too [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] whats thi about horses? [DX_Zoi] more g to upgrade galleys, pikes and cats [E_T[APO-MoI]] cutting Iron and building just horses and then upgrading to riders [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] ah ok [DX_Zoi] We have a city founded on Iron, that would be almost impossible to disconnect [E_T[APO-MoI]] yes, not without messing it completely up [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] well you could disconnect all the roads to it [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] leave it isolated [DX_Zoi] but it will work, and save us 5000g [DX_Zoi] no, we have sevral 10 spt cities. we will be okay [E_T[APO-MoI]] thing is, you can't selectivly pillage... [DX_Zoi] right, so we will just be building Riders [DX_Zoi] to upgrade for 20 g later [E_T[APO-MoI]] to Cav, right [DX_Zoi] It's what we have to do, and I still estimate 40+ riders in 50 turns [DX_Zoi] yep [E_T[APO-MoI]] and a few Riders to get your GA... [DX_Zoi] hopefully more [DX_Zoi] yep, we will be crawling out of the Third World shortly, gentlemen. [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Good [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Im looking forward to seeing your ex the next 30 turns [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] rex [E_T[APO-MoI]] I was reading that your all planning to start your own research efforts after you get Printing Press, in about 29 turns? [DX_Zoi] It's timed perfectly, because our FP comes at about the same time as we discover PPress [DX_Zoi] great minds, E_T, great minds [DX_Zoi] [E_T[APO-MoI]] that happened with us and Invention, worked out great [DX_Zoi] yes, 28-29 turns now [E_T[APO-MoI]] thing is, we have been gearing ourselves towards really cranking out the techs, very soon, which is all being hinged on the research funding from you [DX_Zoi] well, let's see where we are at in 25 turns. If we have to extend it, we gladly will. But if we can research almost as quickly, it may be worth it to double our research lead [E_T[APO-MoI]] as a matter of fact, from the dummy save, we are now #1 in Literacy, which is gauged mostly by Number of libs [DX_Zoi] Of course, I may be a bit naive..........stay tuned. [DX_Zoi] well, we are beating GCA [DX_Zoi] [E_T[APO-MoI]] hehe [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Yes lets see what happens in 25 turns [DX_Zoi] my 30 turn plan includes Libraries in our key cities [E_T[APO-MoI]] the thing is, we wouldn't have gotten as far without yur help and won't likely if you do go that route [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] We would LOVE it if you could research as fast [E_T[APO-MoI]] do you have Markets yet? [DX_Zoi] oh yes [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] But if not we can always extend the deal. [DX_Zoi] about 5-6 [DX_Zoi] with plans for the FP ring cities [DX_Zoi] Of course [DX_Zoi] I am a realist, and as much as I would like parity, I still want the optimum results [DX_Zoi] so if the got deal needs to be extended, so be it [DX_Zoi] *gpt [E_T[APO-MoI]] because, if we go the tech route that I have been planning out, we can be in Industrial in 70 turns (or less) and be invading GWT around the same time [DX_Zoi] we will be reverting to manual gpt transfer after 20 turns just in case(bad news for you............) [E_T[APO-MoI]] especailly, when we get our GA, the worst of the techs will be handled in 4 turns each, for us that is

	24-04-2004 17:18									#326
	Remove this text

Second half of the previous chat::::

Can someone please clean this as well?

Thanks

quote: [DX_Zoi] regarding that, do you really think that GWT won't be headed our way by then? [DX_Zoi] 70 turns seems a bit long, although our tech lead will help [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] My opinion is no [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] They will need a breather [DX_Zoi] I am not convinced the element of surprise would work though [E_T[APO-MoI]] that is the thing, they have also recently cut their Iron again, and likely don;t have much cash, and then, they are going to be resettling CGN lands for GCA [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and they will wait some for a GCA build up in the old cgn lands [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] thats my guess [DX_Zoi] breather = recovery [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] BINGO [DX_Zoi] are we planning on focusing more on GWT, then GCA? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] I would say so [E_T[APO-MoI]] Trip is expecting them sooner, and yes, it is a real possibility, but we will be ready, atleast to repulse and then to take the inititive from them [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] They ARE the threat for the next couple hunddred years [DX_Zoi] undisputed [E_T[APO-MoI]] thing is, when it comes to them ,we actually have to go for both [E_T[APO-MoI]] because, we know that GCA won;t sit back while we attack GWT and they difinately won;'t sit out a chance to try to re-invade us [E_T[APO-MoI]] too much bad blood [DX_Zoi] ya think? [E_T[APO-MoI]] so, IMHO, it has to be several strikes on both at same time [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] you see in my opinion anyway: [E_T[APO-MoI]] AND, we don;t need them to get a GA and be able to take advantage of it, with Elephants and such [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] GWT will have to balance how much GCA cn build up and help vs us continueing to pull ahead [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] They will try and find the balance point [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and attack' [DX_Zoi] but if GWT is going for a Domination Voctory, wouldn't they want the land for them selves? [E_T[APO-MoI]] and the thing is, if we can keep it from getting to them, we can build up as much as possible and still say under them until it's too late [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] NO [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] I dont think so [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Too much corruption [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and even th whole continent over there wont get them 66% [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Thats my guess [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Its just like us with CFC [E_T[APO-MoI]] no, they are going to do the same thing that we have been doing, having GCA fund their own research [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] It makes NO sense to attack you [DX_Zoi] right. Do you think they have an agreement with GCA to re-release the cities should that possiblity present itself? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] You as a non corrupt partner is a much better deal [E_T[APO-MoI]] BUT, GWT had the settler resourses and will build and then gift to GCA [E_T[APO-MoI]] and THAT will have an effect on their economy [DX_Zoi] gee, thanks [DX_Zoi] I understand your point though [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Dont take what I said the wrong way [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Thanks [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] xpost [DX_Zoi] I'm not, but it's true..... [E_T[APO-MoI]] sometimes Con lets his Navy seal Image get out too much, especially when his wife has been hounding him... [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Sure its true [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] But I did say partner and thats how we veiw you guys [E_T[APO-MoI]] no, that's SeeBee, not seal.... [E_T[APO-MoI]] even worst... [E_T[APO-MoI]] hehe [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] We want you to REX out and get strong [DX_Zoi] and we will * @Bootstoots has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] So we can both kick GWT's ass [DX_Zoi] like I said: status report in 30 turns [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Great [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [E_T[APO-MoI]] and we will get the techs going faster and faster, with your help [DX_Zoi] with a few talks in between, to be sure. [E_T[APO-MoI]] fantastic [E_T[APO-MoI]] yes, we definately need to have more talks [E_T[APO-MoI]] our Consuls are always on Zargon and WB about getting more contact with you guys * conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall} thinks he just *****ed at our FAM about that [E_T[APO-MoI]] and I've started hanging out here, although, most of the time, I can go days without someone even saying BOO... [DX_Zoi] yes, we can do better as well [DX_Zoi] we don't man the chat room all too often, but I can start [DX_Zoi] your being here will help in most instances, and i can usually find Trip around here too [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] well we both can [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and lets start by making sure you guys give us some notice when you are going to play [DX_Zoi] until my PC-imposed exile from your room is lifted, at least [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] and we will have someone hang out here [E_T[APO-MoI]] I know people DO have Real Lifes, but hey, if anything, they can slap me around and leave me a message to be relayed to someone else, if I'm not here.... [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Just to make sure those deals go thru [DX_Zoi] yes, and that brings me to an apology for never responding to your CFC PM [DX_Zoi] a few weeks ago [DX_Zoi] big RL week for me [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] well it wasn't exactly never [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] You did eventually respond [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [E_T[APO-MoI]] hehe, I'm curious what GWT had to say in that message that they had sent you, about Gunpowder [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] No problem though [DX_Zoi] hold on...short and sweet. [E_T[APO-MoI]] If anything has more than alienated GWT, is their huge lack of communication with everyone else, excepting GCA [DX_Zoi] Hi Donovan Zoi, [E_T[APO-MoI]] but then, Lucky IS german, too [DX_Zoi] we have gunpowder, are you interesting in this tech? [DX_Zoi] regards zeri [DX_Zoi] ----] thats it [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] sned them back a note: [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Zeri, [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Sure [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] reguards [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] DZ [E_T[APO-MoI]] hehe [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [DX_Zoi] hehe [DX_Zoi] I don't know if I can keep up this "neutral" act for another 50 turns with them [DX_Zoi] but I will still try [E_T[APO-MoI]] Sure, if you don't sprechen sie deutch, you don;t matter.... [DX_Zoi] If you don't what now? [DX_Zoi] J/K [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Better yet send hem a note saying you just finished researching it this turn [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] That would confuse the hell out of them [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] [DX_Zoi] hehehehe....I already did that with Invention awhile back [DX_Zoi] did I tell you about that? [E_T[APO-MoI]] hey, you can tell them the true, that someone else already has offered to give you Gunpowder, and if they can come up with a better offer, that your willing to listen [DX_Zoi] they are going to get suspicious [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] about what? [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] The reasearch? [DX_Zoi] if I tell them the same thing(rsearching this turn) [DX_Zoi] yep [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] True [DX_Zoi] so they would basically have to pay me to take the tech.......I like it! :O [E_T[APO-MoI]] we gave CFC Invention when we had seen GWT had gotten it, and GWT had conteacted them to try to make a deal about it [E_T[APO-MoI]] but after they already had the tech to deal, not even bevore [DX_Zoi] they wouldnt have known before though [E_T[APO-MoI]] the thing is, in this game, you have to plan your tech trades several turns in advance, to try to get the best in the way of trades [DX_Zoi] not defending them BTW ; ) [E_T[APO-MoI]] especailly for everyone [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Guys I have to sleep [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] Getting up in 5 hours [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] kids feild trip [E_T[APO-MoI]] DZ, yes, if they want to pay you for the tech, they certainly can, we can;t stop them [DX_Zoi] was just thinkin g that myself.........6.5 hours work [DX_Zoi] hey, Id throw a 10-spot your way :P [E_T[APO-MoI]] well, I'll go into hangout mode and see you all whenever [E_T[APO-MoI]] Oh, any more new on Strider? [DX_Zoi] thanks for the surprise chat guys. This was cool [DX_Zoi] GF hasnt posted for days [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] No problem [DX_Zoi] and now there is a backlash by some who think this may be a prank :O * E_T has joined #demogame_cfc_embassy * E_T is now known as E_T[APO-hangingout] [DX_Zoi] 350+ posts in the thread [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] wow [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] I hope not BTW * E_T[APO-MoI] has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [conmcb25{APO_DiplomatOnCall}] on the prank that is [DX_Zoi] first 200 were sympathy, then some investigation by 1-2 members, then the doubt [E_T[APO-hangingout]] well, atleast you don't have a Ming, who closes a thread after 500 posts, no matter what [DX_Zoi] we do that with the silly OT threads, but if it is substantial, I agree it should stay open [E_T[APO-hangingout]] what, it could be a hoax? * Logging #demogame_cfc_embassy to 'logs\#demogame_cfc_embassy.irc-chat.log' [DX_Zoi] I dunno. I have my suspicions, but have not publicized them [DX_Zoi] Strider really seems to have a life of adversity [DX_Zoi] by what he posts [DX_Zoi] that's all I am going to say [DX_Zoi] In one respect, I hope that it is a hoax, because he would be okay [DX_Zoi] but then there are other issues to deal with [DX_Zoi] The CFC community wouldn't like it too much if they were played [!CivGeneral] yeah [DX_Zoi] hey there, lurkin CG [!CivGeneral] DZ - Just poped in after hunting down some graphic mods for my C3C [DX_Zoi] anyway, guys, thanks again [DX_Zoi] thats cool, CG [E_T[APO-hangingout]] laters * E_T[APO-hangingout] . [DX_Zoi] dont take this wrong, CG, but I do gotta run. way past my bedtime [!CivGeneral] hehe [!CivGeneral] Night DZ, its close to nap time to me too [DX_Zoi] cya

	26-04-2004 09:38									#327
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Chat with miccofl of CGN this evening at about 2400 GMT on 25 April:

quote: [19:45] miccofl> only one settler [19:45] conmcb25> Only one settler what? [19:45] Trip> is coming [19:45] E_T[APO-hangingout]> Oh [19:45] miccofl> not sure when it will cross or which side yet [19:45] conmcb25> What happened? [19:46] E_T[APO-hangingout]> I had thought you were sending multiple settlers/galleys [19:46] miccofl> only had one settler [19:46] E_T[APO-hangingout]> ah [19:46] miccofl> well there were two but one got sunk [19:46] conmcb25> Well we have decided where we are going to settle you [19:47] conmcb25> And there is talk about building you cities again [19:47] E_T[APO-hangingout]> just get here and we'll direct you,... [19:47] E_T[APO-hangingout]> I already have the settler currently on the way [19:47] conmcb25> So I will ask again your feelings on that issue since I knew you were fairly adament about it earlier [19:47] E_T[APO-hangingout]> plural [19:48] miccofl> SL3 was being stubborn about it, I had no reservations about it [19:50] Trip> we'll have our continent settled in the next 4 or 5 turns [19:51] conmcb25> Really micco? [19:51] conmcb25> Do you have to check with the team or can we build the cities and start gifting them? [19:52] E_T[APO-hangingout]> well, he isn't named "Dick Tator" for nothing... [19:52] miccofl> I have to check with no one (surprised that isn't pissing them off more) [19:52] conmcb25> Im just being sure E_T [19:52] Trip> we should only send CGN the northermost one first [19:52] Trip> so that their capital ends up in the right spot [19:53] conmcb25> OK. [19:53] conmcb25> We can work the details but Im glad we can agree on this. [19:53] conmcb25> Because E_T HATES it when you change his plan [19:54] E_T[APO-hangingout]> That's what I was saying, we send them Rememberance, accepted every turn, they just refuse it until they can't hold out any more [19:54] conmcb25> OK let me post a shot in your forums of the spot. [19:55] conmcb25> There was a lot of debate in our forums over the final location but this one was the chosen one because we are pretty dam sure there is undiscovered lands to our north. [19:55] E_T[APO-hangingout]> It has Game and forrest and Plains, but unfortunately, no water until electricity [19:55] conmcb25> Which we will no for sure soon, correct E_T? [19:55] E_T[APO-hangingout]> and it would be closer for your palace influance [19:56] E_T[APO-hangingout]> Astro in 7 turns, we have a galley already heading up there and will be ready to sail as soon as we get it [20:05] conmcb25> miccofl? [20:05] miccofl> yes [20:05] conmcb25> I posted the screenie at the diplo forum [20:06] miccofl> and I need to reboot before I can look brb [20:06] * miccofl has quit IRC (Quit: Farofa!) [20:08] * miccofl has joined #isdg-embassy1 [20:08] * ChanServ sets mode: +o miccofl [20:09] conmcb25> E_T can you share where we got the intell on the northern lands? [20:09] conmcb25> And what was said? [20:10] E_T[APO-hangingout]> Intel? [20:11] E_T[APO-hangingout]> Oh, When I was setting up a sim, long ago, I was looking at what could possibly fit into the northern dark area, with the rules for ocean,sea,coastal area before actual land [20:13] E_T[APO-hangingout]> the area is significant, especially, after some other analysis of the game, by NYE, IIRC, that there is definately some more land out there that hasn;t been acounted for, because of the map size and water %'s [20:14] conmcb25> Yep thats what I was looking for [20:14] conmcb25> So the bottomline line is we are fairly certain there are other lnads to the north. [20:14] E_T[APO-hangingout]> and also, things like resource counts and such, it was figured that it was there [20:14] conmcb25> So that p[ennisula will hopefully just be a jumping off point. [20:14] E_T[APO-hangingout]> AND something that Mongoose had said to us, before we had even made our first crossing [20:17] E_T[APO-hangingout]> AND, looking at where it could very well be at, it could be fairly close to where Parth is located, so, it could very well be also used as a northern strike route when we plan the Invasion [20:19] E_T[APO-hangingout]> Hey, it might just end up to be a very small strip of land and then again a lot of islands, but we will find out soon [20:26] conmcb25> Ok well we got two settlers very close to there right now miccofl so we are going to build the cities. [20:26] conmcb25> We will get whatever we can out of them until the time when you need them. [20:26] conmcb25> If you need them [20:27] conmcb25> We are still hopefull you can pull this out [20:27] conmcb25> But also need to plan for the worst. [20:27] E_T[APO-hangingout]> Plan for the worst, hope for the best, that's my motto [20:27] conmcb25> Yep [20:28] miccofl> like a typical day at work [20:28] conmcb25> [20:28] conmcb25> I guess we can launch the exploration galley in 7 turns so we will know more then.

	29-04-2004 10:19									#328
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A productive chat with DZ from CFC.

quote: Session Start: Wed Apr 28 21:07:35 2004 Session Ident: DX_Zoi Session Ident: DX_Zoi (~jirc@2850d5e8.3f9d3b60.client.comcast.net) [21:07] [DX_Zoi] hey, coupla quick questions [21:08] [DX_Zoi] what is the significance of Orlando? [21:08] [Trip] hey [21:08] [DX_Zoi] [21:08] [Trip] it's so that CGN can transfer Workers to us [21:08] [Trip] you have to have a city on the continent in order to do a Worker trade [21:09] [DX_Zoi] aha...so that deal is working for you? [21:09] [Trip] yes [21:10] [DX_Zoi] did you get the latest save yet? [21:11] [Trip] yes [21:11] [DX_Zoi] what is the deal with CGN's boycotts of the UN Forum? [21:11] [Trip] we are waiting on our Minister of the Interior to finish up some stuff [21:11] [Trip] personally, I don't really care [21:11] [DX_Zoi] did you get our 120g? [21:11] [Trip] the UN doesn't really do much, so I can't blame them for that [21:11] [Trip] we got 80 [21:11] [Trip] but no World Map [21:11] [DX_Zoi] you got 80? [21:12] [Trip] yes, IIRC [21:12] [DX_Zoi] we sent 120. I have the screenshot [21:12] [Trip] one sec [21:12] [Trip] let me look it up [21:12] [DX_Zoi] thanks [21:13] [Trip] anything else to discuss? [21:14] [DX_Zoi] I thnk that was about it. We will be sending a settler to Equilibrium shortly [21:15] [DX_Zoi] IIRC, you would prefer that we settle just west of the old locale? [21:15] [Trip] okay, great [21:15] [Trip] right [21:15] [DX_Zoi] so, was it 120 or 80? just want to make sure its not a bug or something [21:16] [Trip] still checking [21:16] [Trip] doing a few things at once [21:16] [DX_Zoi] cool, sorry [21:16] [Trip] quite alright [21:16] [DX_Zoi] just have a list of things that had slipped my mind in past talks [21:21] [Trip] 80g [21:21] [Trip] 80g and no WM [21:22] [Trip] I have the turn in front of me now [21:22] [DX_Zoi] wtf [21:22] [DX_Zoi] I know we didn't send the map [21:22] [DX_Zoi] at least I don't think [21:22] [DX_Zoi] lemme check [21:23] [DX_Zoi] no, we only sent the gold, but it was 120 [21:23] * Trip shrugs [21:24] [DX_Zoi] well, our intentions were good......do you know what may have causeed that? [21:24] [Trip] no idea [21:24] [Trip] that's odd [21:24] [Trip] I've known cases where gold disappears [21:24] [Trip] but not changes amount... [21:25] [DX_Zoi] very [21:25] [DX_Zoi] I can show you the screen [21:25] [Trip] no, it's okay [21:25] [Trip] you can just send more next turn [21:25] [Trip] backlogging [21:25] [Trip] hehe [21:25] [DX_Zoi] hehe [21:25] [DX_Zoi] sure, and then it will show up and we'll be broke [21:26] [DX_Zoi] that 80 is robably from the ones you missed earlier :LOL: [21:26] [Trip] haha [21:27] [Trip] I can imagine opening it up and seeing like "Fanatikou offers 760,000g" [21:27] [Trip] [21:27] [DX_Zoi] we haven't built *that* many Markets yet.......... :P [21:27] [DX_Zoi] [21:28] [DX_Zoi] so, when are we going to start laying out battle plans? [21:29] [DX_Zoi] once GWT removes CGN from the continent? [21:30] [Trip] hehe [21:30] [Trip] not for a while yet [21:30] [Trip] there's plenty of time for Markets, I assure you [21:31] [Trip] we're finishing settling our side of the continent, and then preparing our cities for the big buildup [21:31] [DX_Zoi] Oh, I know what my other question was! [21:31] [Trip] a lot of our coastal cities are shield-poor, so we need to improve that so we can build boats [21:31] [Trip] since we are going to need a lot of boats :P [21:31] [DX_Zoi] us as well [21:32] [DX_Zoi] we have 27 turns until Printing Press, but it just occurred to me.......why should we bother? [21:32] [DX_Zoi] if we plan to be at war, we won't need Democracy [21:32] [Trip] that's a good question [21:32] [Trip] do you need PP for anything besides Demo? [21:32] [DX_Zoi] At the time, it seemed sound [21:33] [DX_Zoi] not really....Shakespeare ain't gonna happen [21:33] [Trip] how much gold are you spending on science right now? [21:34] [DX_Zoi] but if we were to research something else, we would need Education [21:34] [DX_Zoi] 1 sientist [21:34] [DX_Zoi] scientist [21:34] [Trip] ah [21:34] [DX_Zoi] the rest is pure gold [21:34] [Trip] well, at least that's efficient [21:34] [Trip] what city are you using that scientist in, if I may ask [21:35] [DX_Zoi] it's been changing as our needs change [21:35] [Trip] ahh [21:35] [DX_Zoi] think I have it in one of the island cities now....why? [21:35] [Trip] making sure you're not stagnating growth in a single city [21:35] [Trip] or something silly like that [21:35] [Trip] are you building any units right now? [21:35] [DX_Zoi] yes, have just started [21:36] [DX_Zoi] I figured I would load up on riders first to keep support costs dwn, and then we will have the gold to build and upgrade the samaller units [21:37] [DX_Zoi] galeeys will be starting shortly as well [21:37] [Trip] hmmm [21:37] [Trip] I would say no units right now [21:37] [Trip] Markets, maybe a Library or two eventually [21:37] [Trip] Granaries for growth [21:37] [Trip] and lots of Settlers [21:37] [Trip] no units [21:37] [Trip] we're talking... 60+ turns before we invade [21:38] [Trip] Riders are almost as expensive as Markets [21:38] [DX_Zoi] Trust me, I want to be ready [21:38] [Trip] and Markets will be much more useful [21:38] [Trip] once you get those up then I would do Aquaducts [21:38] [DX_Zoi] I am building them in cities that already have markets [21:38] [Trip] I know it's not a lot of fun but in order to produce those expensive Riders you're going to need bigger cities and more gold [21:38] [Trip] ahh [21:38] [Trip] that's better then [21:39] [DX_Zoi] I geared up all of our river cities for production [21:39] [Trip] do they already have Aquaducts (or on fresh water) and Granaries yet? [21:39] [DX_Zoi] those are the ones that are 7+ [21:39] [Trip] ahh [21:39] [Trip] good [21:39] [Trip] one thing I might do differently though is use Shen Ling for Settlers [21:39] [DX_Zoi] I have been considering aqueducts, but happiness is an issue [21:40] [Trip] with those 2 game tiles you can build Setters really quick [21:40] [Trip] one of the things that will help you out lots is a LOT more Settlers [21:40] [Trip] we were building Settlers from ALL of our cites before we got most of our cities up [21:40] [DX_Zoi] have one coming from there next turn or two [21:40] [Trip] excellent [21:40] [Trip] the thing that will help you most is having the rest of your land settled [21:41] [DX_Zoi] yes, I am starting that now [21:41] [DX_Zoi] I just wanted to time it so I wasnt just founding corrupt cities....waste of time IMHO [21:41] [DX_Zoi] but now that the FP is in sight, the buildup will begin [21:41] [Trip] meh... [21:42] [Trip] even if they are corrupt they'll still be GROWING [21:42] [Trip] and you need cities that are large to produce anything [21:42] [Trip] even if your FP is built [21:42] [DX_Zoi] well, thats what I am doing npow [21:42] [Trip] do you already have a Granary in Jiang Mapi? [21:43] [DX_Zoi] No, I am planning on worker joining it to Size 6 and then considering it [21:43] [Trip] I understand that happiness is a concern for you guys, but with Markets and 4 luxuries and the luxury slider you ought to be able to get cities pretty darn big [21:43] [Trip] isn't Jiang size 7? [21:43] [DX_Zoi] yu would think. we can yield Size 8 with 0% lux [21:44] [Trip] with 10% lux you should be able to get size 10 or 11 [21:44] [DX_Zoi] you are right, i was thinking of Ju yaosai [21:44] [Trip] after you get more Settlers [21:44] [Trip] yeah [21:44] [DX_Zoi] Size 10, I have already looked into this, but it will waste 16 gpt [21:44] [Trip] yes [21:44] [DX_Zoi] not quite ready for that yet [21:44] [Trip] you want to get all the cities up to that size at the same time [21:44] [Trip] that's the key [21:44] [Trip] I'd definitely get a Granary built in Jiang Mapi before it reaches size 8 [21:44] [Trip] that'll help growth there a lot [21:44] [DX_Zoi] right and since they are not there yet, i am waiting [21:45] [Trip] good [21:45] [Trip] and I wouldn't burn off TOO many Workers on adding to cities [21:45] [Trip] the things you need most right now are Settlers and Workers [21:45] [Trip] more than Riders and even Markets [21:45] [Trip] I apologize if I sound commanding at all [21:45] [Trip] just trying to help out [21:45] [DX_Zoi] I realize that, and am hoping to feed those from the new cities [21:46] [DX_Zoi] not at all, we seem to agree on most of it [21:46] [Trip] great [21:46] [Trip] I don't want to come across wrong [21:46] [DX_Zoi] not at all, in fact I appreciate the feedback [21:46] [Trip] I think your priorities should be Aquaducts in cities that aren't along fresh water, Settlers and Workers from cities that already have Granaries (except Ju, which needs a Granary now) [21:47] [Trip] the most important thing is to get your POSSIBLE future production base up higher [21:47] [Trip] Markets aren't as important [21:47] [Trip] Settlers found new cities ASAP [21:47] [Trip] Workers help to prepare sites [21:47] [Trip] from the looks of things you guys need a LOT more Workers [21:47] [Trip] right now Apolyton has a WHOLE lot [21:48] [DX_Zoi] I had maxed out our core cities to get optimum gold and production [21:48] [Trip] I disagree with that move right now [21:48] [DX_Zoi] and burned a few workers in the process [21:48] [Trip] Settlers and Workers should be top priority [21:48] [Trip] they give you a greater POTENTIAL output later on [21:48] [Trip] which is what we're trying to achieve [21:48] [DX_Zoi] whats done is done....the settlers are coming now [21:48] [Trip] yes [21:49] [DX_Zoi] when our FP is built in 25 turns or so, we will have all ring cities in place [21:49] [DX_Zoi] we have 3 settlers on the way in the next 4 turns [21:49] [Trip] this is the ideal build queues for you guys right now I think... Granary (in cities that have good shield production), Settlers, Workers, Aquaducts, Markets... etc. [21:49] [Trip] great [21:50] [Trip] getting that Granary in Jiang before size 8 will help you out loads in growing above that [21:50] [Trip] since you'll only need 20 food to grow after that instead of 40 [21:50] [DX_Zoi] I think we have 2-3 granaries, one in Shen Ling [21:50] [Trip] yes, you probably need more [21:51] [Trip] Apolyton has, uh... 10 or so I think [21:51] [DX_Zoi] so we will see some big numbers from you pretty soon? [21:51] [DX_Zoi] all your cities are like 5-6 [21:52] [DX_Zoi] excepy Poly Prime [21:52] [DX_Zoi] ; ) [21:53] [Trip] you bet [21:53] [Trip] we're going into growth mode now that our cities are down [21:53] [DX_Zoi] good [21:55] [DX_Zoi] I'll have to run some numbers. Still gonna build some Riders, though. 60 turns will be here before you know it [21:55] [Trip] haha [21:56] [Trip] with an average of 2 or 3 days per turn that rounds out to only 6 months [21:57] [DX_Zoi] right, but summer always goes by fast.............mark me words [21:58] [DX_Zoi] well, definite food for thought..........thanks for the talk [21:59] [Trip] hehe [21:59] [Trip] sure thing [21:59] [Trip] remember, think Granaries [22:00] [DX_Zoi] I will consider the possibility [22:00] [DX_Zoi] we'll just go take Parthemunde [22:00] [DX_Zoi] problem solved [22:01] [Trip] haha [22:02] [Trip] you and your 10 Riders built over the next 40 turns against 80 German Ansar [22:03] [DX_Zoi] you underestimate me, my good friend [22:03] [DX_Zoi] um, maybe I'll wait after all [22:04] [DX_Zoi] I am still concerned that GWT will be headed this way withing 60 turns [22:04] [Trip] hehe [22:05] [Trip] I agree [22:05] [Trip] but, I'm not 100% in charge :P [22:05] [DX_Zoi] I know..if we maintain superior naval tech, it will help [22:06] [Trip] yes [22:06] [Trip] that is part of the plan [22:06] [Trip] but, we won't be able to build enough boats to stop them [22:07] [Trip] Caravels attack only as well as Galleys [22:07] [DX_Zoi] another reason we are building some Riders now. [22:08] [Trip] they don't even have Theology yet :P [22:09] * Trip whaps DZ [22:09] [Trip] bad boy, no Riders! ;p [22:09] [Trip] Graaaanaries [22:09] [Trip] Seeeeetlers [22:09] [Trip] Woooooooorkers [22:09] [Trip] ;D [22:09] [DX_Zoi] notice I said "some" [22:09] [Trip] yeah yeah [22:10] [Trip] Granary in Jiang Mapi pronto! [22:10] [Trip] then you can have your Riders [22:10] [DX_Zoi] ok, now you are ticking me off.................. [22:10] [DX_Zoi] not [22:10] [Trip] haha [22:10] [Trip] I was about to say... [22:10] [Trip] we have enough Workers to crush you [22:11] [DX_Zoi] Yes, and I have just disclosed my relative lack of workers.........a fatal mistake :O [22:11] [Trip] hehe [22:11] [Trip] too bad this ain't a RTS game [22:11] [Trip] or we probably could [22:11] [Trip] "Worker Rush" [22:11] [Trip] mwahahahaaa [22:11] [DX_Zoi] hehehe [22:13] [DX_Zoi] well, I gotta run. This has been, um, enlightening [22:13] [DX_Zoi] [22:13] [Trip] mwahaaha [22:13] [Trip] hopefully it was a little bit [22:13] [DX_Zoi] seriously, I will see how granaries fit into the big plan [22:13] [DX_Zoi] and am already sold on settlers/workers

	30-04-2004 19:19									#329
	Support Apolyton

I'm afraid I've missed something. Things have been so silent at the embassy in Webringia that I have overlooked a letter of a week ago:

quote: Just noticed that 6 netatolian workers are in Apolytons service. How did that happen? Normally, workers cannot be gifted to a civ on another continent pre-navigation/magnetism(we have tried). Unless said workers are still on CGNs territory or in the orlando area, I would say you have employed some sort of exploit to get them home. 6 workers are no big deal, but I don't like that you try to circumvent the ban on unit-jumping. Bongo, Krigsminister, GWT

It wasn't an exploit, was it? Can anyone explain this so I can get it back to GWT. As far as I know trading workers was always possible in PTW.

Aidun

	03-05-2004 11:44									#330
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It is impossible pre-nav unless you have a city on the other continent (at least thats what I have been told).

Edit by con: Please open a thread to discuss this, we are just supposed to post corrospondence here. Thanks

Last edited by conmcb25 on 03-05-2004 at 17:53