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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Miccofl has filled me in what's going on.
First, I think it's obvious what my (and Poly's) opinion on the whole teleportation deal. We too wish the thing had been ruled invalid in the first place, and we wouldn't be dealing with this situation now.
The only reason CGN pillaged their own roads, creating a "Stalingrad" was because they knew they could teleport back. If GWT wants to replay, then we should replay the last few turns so that won't be a factor in CGN's decision.
Perhaps we can all come to an agreement to ban unit teleportation from here on out, now that both parties have had to deal with the ill effects of it.
Also, as far as GWT's domestic advisor bug, it's actually a bug with the REPRESENTATION of WW. The WW they suffer (causing them to have to turn up the slider) is actually legit WW that SHOULD be calculated at the beginning of the turn, but because of a bug it's not in effect until you go to the domestic advisor screen. You should let them know that so they can turn up the slider accordingly, and play their turn.
Also, we should be sinking GCA's last Galley in the lake this turn. Maybe we can get peace one day?
~Trip |
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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Fist message sent to Lucky by myself (note, some things were exaggerated purposefully to make it sound more attractive to him, especially playing off some of the other comments as the "bad cop"  ):
quote:
For the purpose of bringing this so far positive (but lengthy) discussion to a close (and the caging of the rabid Apolyton masses), I will offer you this compromise.
If your team agrees to make peace in the turn we begin replaying from (390 AD, it looks like) and disbands the units in the inner lake, I assure you that Apolyton will accept the remainder of the agreement which you outlined in your last post. That is, 50% of the units disbanded (which would include the units in the inner lake), chosen by you and approved by mongoose with no meddling from us.
If you agree to this then on behalf of Apolyton we have reached a compromise which needs to be debated no more and that Apolyton will accept.
I await your response.  |
Response from Lucky
quote:
Hi Trip,
finally someone that is willing to compromise as we are.
Since this is in effect our own offer, we will most likely accept that compromise. (I´ll say yes for now as I´m sure my team will accept, but I do have to ask them of course.)
However, we will only accept peace offers, not make them ourselves as we repeatedly outlined. If you want a real peace treaty, i.e. one that we would respect as such (after all, we are the ones that never broke any treaty), you know what to do. 
Lucky |
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:34
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Well since no one else thought it was important, I took it upon myself to talk to miccofl and SL3 from CGN today.
See CGN Diplo Thread for comments:
quote:
* Now talking in #isdg-Embassy1
* Topic is 'Welcome'
* Set by ChanServ on Wed Jan 21 15:02:31
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] Im here
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] Dont kno how I did it but I did
[@miccofl] hello
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] Howdy
[SL3] I dont know you but hello
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] Glad to meet you
[SL3] ditto
[BigFree] He's a POLY dude
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] Yep
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] Just here to listen
* BigFree|Away has joined #isdg-Embassy1
[BigFree|Away] hey, kill "BigFree" in the ISDG channel, will you con?
* BigFree|Away has left #isdg-Embassy1
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] OK
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] You are gone already
[BigFree] ok
* BigFree has quit IRC (Quit: You know you miss me already!  )
* BigFree has joined #isdg-Embassy1
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] Welcome back BF
[SL3] AFK
[@miccofl] sure, leave now that I have your post fixed
[BigFree] HAHA
[@miccofl] it's a ***** quoting between forums
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] Yep
[BigFree] You know, for fun, this game sure is a lot of work!
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] Especially for the info age challenged like me
[@miccofl] ok, those with embassy forum access can read his post here http://www.civgaming.net/forums/sho...7086#post107086
[@miccofl] needs a little tweaking
[BigFree] "The point is, that CGN made some mistakes in the time after planning their teleportation. Thus, simply going back to this point wouldn't be fair, because it would give them the chance to change these decissions.
[BigFree] Thats sort of funny
[BigFree] They assume that CGN made "mistakes"
[BigFree] but they admit it was " in the time after planning their teleportation"
[@miccofl] they assume that tactics they do not understand were mistakes
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] Hmmmmmmmmmmm, how would they know that?
[BigFree] so, they admit that CGN did some things in plannign the telportation that they wouldn't have done if a teleportation was not planned.
[BigFree] they are just assuming too much
[BigFree] I have to take off guys
[@miccofl] later
[conmcb25_feelingbetter] Later
* conmcb25_feelingbetter is now known as conmcb25
* BigFree is away: Don't worry about why I'm away punk!
* BigFree is now known as BigFree|Away
* @miccofl wonders how you pronounce conmcb...
[conmcb25] When did you guys start pillaging roads around Boston, ws it 390?
[conmcb25] Is that why you want to go back to then?
[@miccofl] one of the reasons
[@miccofl] our entire strategy would have been different
[@miccofl] we had a plan to go either way
[@miccofl] 390 was when we had our official decision on what we were going to do
[conmcb25] OK
[conmcb25] So how bad would it be if we went back to say 400?
[conmcb25] Im asking this because if we dont bend on this issue we lose the GCA disbanding units
[conmcb25] Thats something to consider as well
[conmcb25] What is the lessor or greater evil?
[conmcb25] GCA losing half there units could also help you in the long run as well
[conmcb25] So whats better?
[@miccofl] we are reviewing the turns - again
[conmcb25] OK
[conmcb25] Im just trying to find some sort of comprimise that would get us an agreement and benefit us all (CGN, CFC and Apolymost of all)
[@miccofl] on turn 390 we did to rush builds that we would have done differently were we not teleporting
[@miccofl] two, not to
[@miccofl] 390 AD was the commit turn
[SL3] yeah 0390ad is the turn
[SL3] and I will not accept anything else
[SL3] and it doesnt effect gwt at all
[conmcb25] OK well thanks for double checking
[conmcb25] Now how do we convince GWT?
[@miccofl] that is the trick, isn't it
[@miccofl] perhaps we could bring in CFC as mediators...
[@miccofl] no-one has to know that they were the back-up if apolyton refused the gift
[conmcb25] ha ha
[conmcb25] Is anyone over there any good at this sort of thing?
[@miccofl] I don't know, communications between us are usually a 24 hour affair - via chat
[conmcb25] Hmmm, can you chat them up and find out of they have someone who can intervene?
[conmcb25] Also one last question:
[conmcb25] What is better for CGN:
[conmcb25] 1. Going back 5 turns and getting rid of some GCA units?
[conmcb25] or 2. Do the magic carpet ride and just keep playing?
[conmcb25] Take your time because I will be away for a few feeding the kids
* BigFree|Away has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
* BigFree has joined #isdg-Embassy1
[@miccofl] What would y'all think if we backed up to 400 BC, moved our troops out of the cities and donated the empty cities to you with the population intact and you could rush the settlers
[SL3] And than make more cities placing them in the way of the advancing Webs or one good city and we can team up against them
[conmcb25] Hmmm, well I dont have the authority to answer that but I can take it to the team.
[conmcb25] And that will get us closer to a comprimise date with the Germans
[conmcb25] But let me ask this:
[conmcb25] We have been taking the moral high ground on things that could be construed as "exploitive".
[conmcb25] Where does this fall?
[conmcb25] And Im just being the devils advocate here
[@miccofl]
[@miccofl] it falls into the realm of **** you, it's not an imperitive but it is a thought
[SL3] they have said gifting cities is okay all along
[conmcb25] Yes, lucky made a special point of that
[SL3] they even say teleporting is okay if you read the 1st page of the thread
[SL3] only teleporting our MI's was not okay
[conmcb25] Well that was a Looooong time ago now, relatively speaking
[SL3] only page 1 of 7 and I have rread all of them today so it is very long ago for me
[conmcb25] Ya, the winds have shifting numerous times on this one
[conmcb25] I share your frustration though
[conmcb25] I REALLY do
[SL3] thanks
[SL3] re-read
[SL3] and isnt very long ago
[SL3] you would think after a year of chat I could type better
[conmcb25] relative terms meaning not litteral time but in how this thing has shifted back and forth.
[SL3] very true
[conmcb25] Well the thing Im worried aboutis that they are going to push for the duble jump and then just play on.
[conmcb25] We (at least) would prefer making this thing right by doing the 5 turns back and disband units.
[@miccofl] I would like to see GCA's units disbanded as well
[conmcb25] Making right meaning "a lot less tainted by exploits".
[conmcb25] I dont think we are going to get that if we do the double jump and play on.
[conmcb25] Thats why Im trying to find some way to comprimise on the 5 turns.
[conmcb25] And not hurt you guys at the same time.
[conmcb25] Im not sure if we can do it.
[conmcb25] Only you guys caan make that judgement
[SL3] 0390ad is a very key turn, we did a lot that turn that we would do different if we are not to teleport
[conmcb25] OK on the last statement
[SL3] we may be able to work out turn 400 but I do not wish to see a pop 2 city or a pop 4 city fall into the hands of the webs
[conmcb25] "if we were not to teleport"
[conmcb25] Is that solid, what if it was gave us the cities?
[SL3] than turn 400 has possibilities
[conmcb25] See hat I mean does that change the equation?
[conmcb25] OK Xpost
[SL3] believe me we I say that our team had a very heated debate on turn 0390ad
[SL3] and turn 400 is to late and turn 410 is a NO
[conmcb25] OH I can believe it, a lot of Apoly guys were leary about the idea to begin with.
[conmcb25] Not because we dont want to help, but because well its exploitive in a lot of eyes.
[conmcb25] And we have been trying to maintain the high moral ground
[conmcb25] For whats that worth
[@miccofl] which is why we need to back up
[@miccofl] that "high" moral ground
[conmcb25] Ya
[@miccofl] we did not cheat, we used an option that was allowed
[conmcb25] Ya no ****
[conmcb25] I agree 1000%
[@miccofl] such options are grave actions and require time to implament
[SL3] Personally I would prefer to start over from 23 turns ago and play the game correctly
* @miccofl sees his spelling is shot
* conmcb25 says his spelling SUCKS all he time
* @miccofl has been pounding Heinekens since 4:30 EST
[SL3] SL3 cannot spell
[conmcb25] Shoulda, coulda woulda
[conmcb25] If only GCA would have brough this up to the UN first
[@miccofl] yep
[conmcb25] Instead of backroom dealing mongoose.
[@miccofl] mongoose201 has full access to our private areas, we have nothing to hide - from him anyway
[conmcb25] We either
[@miccofl] we used to have another GA, bolan_longpants - I remember because I gave him access, I wonder what happened to him...
[conmcb25] GA?
[conmcb25] Game admin, duh
[@miccofl] game administrator
[@miccofl] yep
[conmcb25] Well Ill take the turn 400 and still gift empty cities back to the team.
[conmcb25] In the mean time I think we have to put pressure on the germans to go back 5 turns
[conmcb25] Use the it will be the best way to eliminate the use of exploits reason on them.
[@miccofl] we can't put much more pressure than we have without getting obnoxious, anything you guys can do?
[conmcb25] I cant think of any other reason
[conmcb25] We can try and apply the same pressure as well hopefully without getting obnoxious.
[conmcb25] And are you guys going to talk to CFC?
[conmcb25] We will as well.
[conmcb25] But I think the three of us should push for the same thing
[conmcb25] If we speak with one voice it is just going to sound better.
[@miccofl] I agree, I work tomorrow though
[conmcb25] OK Ill try and get MZ to post tonight
[@miccofl] GWT is asleep not
[@miccofl] *now
[conmcb25] Ya 0100 there
[conmcb25] or 0200
[conmcb25] Well Ill idle here for a while if anything else pops into your head.
[conmcb25] Im just looking for any angles I can get.
[conmcb25]
* @miccofl wonders why he is watching Mars Attacks...
* conmcb25 says because its mindless entertainment and we need that sometimes
[conmcb25]
[@miccofl] good rationalization 
[conmcb25] Maybe you will have a brilliant idea right after congress gets zapped.
[@miccofl] I think it's past that
[@miccofl] boxing match?
[conmcb25] Hmmm I dont remember that part
[conmcb25] I hve only seen it once
[@miccofl] this will be it for me too
[@miccofl] and to think I pay for this....
[conmcb25] Pay?
[@miccofl] cable
[conmcb25] Pay on demand TV?
[conmcb25] OH
[conmcb25] Ya but then again you pay to watch a LOT of crap on cable
[@miccofl] cinemax
[@miccofl] if it wasn't for the internet connection I wouldn't have it
[conmcb25] I hear ya, Im going to post this turn 400AD deal at our forums
[@miccofl] cool
[conmcb25] micco thnks for talking, and good luck, I look forward to working with you in the C3C IDG
[conmcb25] And good to meet you SL3!
[conmcb25] Im gonna idle here if anything comes up
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Edit by WhiteBandit: Fixed all the screwed up brackets
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
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My PM to zeri, bongo, and Striker (apologies for not having a copy of the PM zeri sent me anymore...):
quote:
zeri, bongo, and Striker,
Concerning several issues, please see my latest post:
http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...p?p=64467#64467
Concerning the 390 A.D. issue in particular, that's the one I think needs the most comment at the moment.
I obviously can't say much without violating the trust of CGN in telling me about the specifics of their military situation, but I can say with a relative degree of confidence that CGN made the critical decision to use the unit warp strategy and forgo the use of other methods to deal with the GWT advance on turn 390 A.D. While from your perspective you may not be able to see some of the things that CGN purposely chose NOT to do because they were entirely unecessary if they intended to unit warp, I have learned enough courtesy of SL3 on their team to agree with his argument that anything later than 390 A.D. puts CGN on a track where they were counting on the unit warp and forgoing other military options.
As for the WW issue, I honestly don't know where we are on that. I know where Apolyon is with GCA on negotiating this particular CASE of WW and signing a peace treaty, but I don't know where we are in general on agreeing to a binding agreemen between ALL teams for WW cases in the future.
If you would explain to me the position of GWT on this issue, I'd be happy to take it to my team and get this discussion going. I'd like o see an agreement between all teams about what is and what is not permissible, taking into account that all teams at some point in the long history of this game to come will probably be hurt or helped by WW.
Thanks guys. I'm hoping we can get this game moving again.
- Arnelos
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
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Sent to Lucky in response to his "offer":
quote:
Lucky,
First off, the timing of the replay seems to be a moot issue now that GWT has dropped their protest. We're currently polling the result in our forum, but results so far are very much in favor, seeing as GWT's current policy matches our original one.
We would still like to see a long-term resolution to the WW issue, seeing as Apolyton is far from the only team likely be at the short end of the stick over the course of the game. We are open to discussing that with all teams and indeed would like to encourage a settlement of the issue, something we believe that we were making some progress on with you, in particular, before the other issue fell apart.
As for your offer of peace in return for the two cities we have been gifted by CGN under the current Mongoose ruling, we must decline. While we certainly desire peace and desire for the galley in the lake to be gone, we are unwilling to obtain these things at that price.
We are interested in resolving this issue, however. We've all gone to a lot of trouble to get as far as we had, so here's hoping that something can be worked out.
- Arnelos
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
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From bongo of GWT:
quote:
I sent it in a PM on poly, here it is.(with some corrections/addons)
My personal opinion is that perpetual WW is a shortcoming in the game-mechanics. There are several good reasons to NOT make peace, and force WW on your enemy when he effectively cannot touch you. It won't be difficult finding RL analogies to that strategy/exploit either.
Problem is of course that WW don't decrease until a peace treaty is in place. So we need a rule that will mimick the effect of an WW that do decrease when there are little hostilities. 1 attack per 5 turns were mentioned here, I think that is too low. How about 2 attacks per 5 turns, averaged out over a longer period (i like the 'sliding window' averaging btw )
A new rule might look like this:
When there has been under 0.4 hostile acts per turn for over 15 turns, peace can be enforced. Peace shall not be enforced when one of the involved parties has the capability to go over that number.
Any of the parties can break an enforced peace treaty at will, but have to accept a renewed treaty immediately if the conditions still are met.
During enforced peace, none of the parties are allowed to conduct espionage or trade that would otherwise be blocked by a condition of war.
Only parties that suffer from WW can ask for enforced peace.
To avoid spying, the peace enforcer shall consult all affected parties.
Of course, the details may have to be changed a bit.
I belive this rule will cover the current situation, it would enforce peace between GCA and poly/cfc, but not between GWT and CGN, even if one of us actually wanted a peace. If GCA had gone through with(and succeeded ) with the 'island refugee' plan, instead of jumping units, the new rule would (probably) not kick in.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
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Short chat with miccofl of CGN concerning the rules issue and getting the game moving again:
quote:
Arnelos> miccofl - you there?
Arnelos> SL3?
miccofl> I'm here
Arnelos> hey
Arnelos> How is your team taking the idea of playing on from 440 A.D. (or whatever the latest save was)?
* Trip has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
Arnelos> you guys get to keep the result of the unit warp, but we play on from where play stopped and ban future unit warps (thank god)
Arnelos> our population is voting very strongly in favor
Arnelos> I think a lot of people are just tired of the downtime
Arnelos> how are things at CGN?
miccofl> problem is, the wrong people aren't tired of it or we wouldn't still be discussing it
Arnelos> ah
Arnelos> what do YOU think?
miccofl> we don not like the fact that an agreement was reched and then reneggedon
* miccofl realizes his typing was really ****ed there
Arnelos> heh
Arnelos> if GWT just starts playing again, you guys would play too, right?
Arnelos> this downtime is killing the game
miccofl> under protest
Arnelos> well, I think we have the votes in the U.N. to ban all future unit warping
Arnelos> that's a start
Arnelos> we also need to come to an agreement on WW
Arnelos> what do you guys think on the WW issue?
miccofl> as I said, under protest - we still believe that GCA should have remained on their side and be a dead issue
Arnelos> well, so do we.
Arnelos> problem is, GWT has relented and gone for our originally stated policy.
miccofl> depends on your point of view, we see it as they renegged on an agreement
Arnelos> problem is... if we dwell on that, the game is never going to get played
Arnelos> btw... how bad off are you guys if we play on?
miccofl> the game admin should be the one to restore order then
Arnelos> no offense... but Mongoose is feckless as an admin
Arnelos> he's a nice guy
Arnelos> probably too nice for the job
miccofl> no worse off than we were before this whole mess started
Arnelos> right
miccofl> but only from a tactical standpoint
miccofl> by letting GWT and GCA win this we have basicly let Germany annex Austria again
miccofl> from a philosophical standpoint
* miccofl is reminded of the last words of Socrates
miccofl> "I drank WHAT???!!!"
Arnelos> here's the problem... Apolyton and CGN are the teams that did the unit warp. We got to kill 5 GWT Ansar Warriors and warp CGN's entire army away before they could counter-attack. In what world does GWT allowing that to stand count as GWT's victory?
Arnelos> I mean... if GWT says "fine, you can have it", what CAN we do?
Arnelos> and agreeing to ban unit warping IN THE FUTURE is what we were after from the outset
miccofl> it's not so much what it is, but the way in which it was arrived at
miccofl> We never said that we would not play on, just that doing so was unacceptable to us.
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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Chat with mongoose:
quote:
Trip: I'm assuming you got the recent message from MZ
mongoose: mongoose says:
Ok... just got back... what's the situation... I got Master Zen's email... have you spoken with lucky?
Trip: we talked with Lucky before we got our save
Trip: I told him we would send peace accepted for them to accept on their next turn
Trip: however, Lucky said that they would not accept because we had those cities
Trip: I will forward you the PM at CDG if you want
Trip: Apolyton was under the impression that the only stipulation for peace was no combat for 5 turns
Trip: so we plan on sending the save on with peace accepted sent to them
Trip: and if we don't recieve one back where they have accepted we will not play it
mongoose: Okay... I'll send him an email... I'll bcc it to you guys and we'll go from there. I'll get it sent today, apologies for my frequent absence.. but work is getting ridiculous.
mongoose: 5 turns was the number... and if he tries to weasel his way out of this, that is bullshit...
Trip: okay
mongoose: but you know he is going to try
Trip: as long as we know you will stand by us
Trip: and we are correctly interpreting your ruling
Trip: yes, he will try
Trip: but this time we will not play a turn which we don't have peace
mongoose: you see, this whole deal he has been wanting to turn in his favor.. he wanted to accept peace.... then attack you at will and get peace after 5.... very exploitive
Trip: hehe
Trip: he is free to do so
Trip: it will give us a happiness bonus
mongoose:
mongoose: Lucky is listed as Away.. I'll see if I can get his attention
Trip: okay
mongoose: bah... people and their automessages
Trip: hehe
mongoose: I would put one up that said "kiss my ass, can't you read, It says Away, you stupid bastard!" but it would be my luck someone from my church or something would try to get my attention
Trip: haha
Trip: yes, that would be quite poor form
mongoose: quite
mongoose: forward me the pm at CDG, if you have a chance
Trip: okay
Trip: mongoose201, right?
mongoose: yes, sir
Trip: okay, sending now |
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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Message sent from mongoose to Lucky.
quote:
Greetings Lucky,
In accordance with my previous ruling of peace after 5 turns without conflict, I am directing GCA to accept the peace from Apolyton that will be offered on this turn. Once this is done, you will, or course, be free to act as you wish militarily. The ruling was made and it will be adhered to one way or the other.
I was very dissappointed that the concessions discussed over last week did not come to pass... it seemed everyone was very close to agreement before things fell apart... but, fall apart it did, so that leaves us here. This is the turn where it will happen.. Apolyton has offered peace, according to the members that I talked to. You have stipulated that you would not offer, only accept, and this is your chance to do so.
So, as Game Administrator, and I am still that even though I am generally ignored whenever a team doesn't like the ruling, I will not allow this turn to pass without peace, per the aforementioned 5 turn period. Enough time has passed.
regards,
mongoose201 |
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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Chat between Mongoose and Lucky:
quote:
Lucky says:
well, but didn´t your ruling say that when the war is broadened to a larger scale again, i.e. not just a skirmish here and there, that the whole ruling would become invalid?
Lucky says:
and the possible capture of enemy cities is well within a real war thus making the WW ruling ineffective
mongoose says:
that's all it's been.. a skirmish here or there... yes, they have cities... and it you go to war to take them, I will have them accept peace after 5
Lucky says:
hmm, this is what I feared, this interpretation of your ruling makes wars a farce
mongoose says:
this whole game has made wars a farce... I'm just trying to be as fair as I possibly can... there have been long streches.. much longer than 5 turns, where there have been no skirmishes, and the war continued. Part of that is my fault, to be sure, for not enforcing the rulings as aggressively as I should, and part of it is due to poor planning at the beginning of this game. But this is what we are left with.
Lucky says:
however, accepting peace when you are about to attack 2 major objectives????
Lucky says:
I don´t see any logic in that at all
Lucky says:
we gave Poly once again the chance for a fair compromise, they didn´t want it, so IMO they will have to deal with a few more turns of WW
Lucky says:
but whatever, I´m tired of all the BS I have to keep with as team captain, especially all that is coming from Poly
Lucky says:
so we will accept anything to make them happy and shut up
mongoose says:
well, first of all, they have already dealt with more turns of WW previously according to the ruling than they should have... like I said, that's my fault. But this isn't to "make them happy".... it's to try and enforce a ruling.... and I too am tired of all the BS |
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CiverDan
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It's about time. Finally Mongoose does not give them any more options.
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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Chat with Donovan Zoi of CFC:
quote:
[20:58] *DX_Zoi* Trip, you there?
[20:59] *Trip* heya
[21:02] *DX_Zoi* I am having trouble accessing your server
[21:03] *DX_Zoi* that's why we havent talked in awhile. My new computer may have a firewall, which I don't know much about
[21:04] *Trip* hmmm
[21:04] *Trip* that's a shame
[21:04] *Trip* I'm always in here (the CFC room) when I'm online anywhere
[21:04] *Trip* and as always, you can contact us via PM if necessary
[21:05] *DX_Zoi* sounds good. I will try to resolve this ASAP
[21:06] *Trip* great, hope you're successful
[21:06] *DX_Zoi* thanks, so how goes the peace talks with GCA
[21:07] *Trip* well, we finally got Lucky to agree to peace
[21:07] *Trip* mainly through Mongoose
[21:07] *Trip* Lucky eventually just gave up because he was tired of hearing our "whinings"
[21:07] *DX_Zoi* does that mean that the Galley still floats in our lake?
[21:07] *Trip* as you probably saw in your turn, we also disbanded the CGN cities we recieved, so that Lucky doesn't have any more fodder
[21:07] *Trip* yes, the Galley is still there
[21:07] *DX_Zoi* I really didnt want to make peace until it was gone
[21:08] *Trip* how much war weariness is CFC suffering?
[21:08] *DX_Zoi* I saw that as well
[21:08] *DX_Zoi* Hard to tell.....3 unhappys in Size 6 cities
[21:09] *DX_Zoi* with 4 luxes
[21:09] *DX_Zoi* what does that looks like to you?
[21:09] *Trip* ours is much greater, unfortunately 
[21:09] *Trip* which is why peace has been on the agenda for some time
[21:09] *Trip* we have to run lux slider at size 6
[21:11] *DX_Zoi* yikes
[21:11] *Trip* all luxuries included
[21:11] *Trip* you can get peace from GCA now also
[21:11] *Trip* enough time has passed
[21:12] *Trip* maybe if you could build another Galley from Yun and sink the GCA boat the issue would be resolved
[21:12] *Trip* it will only take 1 more Galley, it's only at 1 HP after all
[21:12] *DX_Zoi* yes, but I am afraid that Lucky won't accept peace if we reignite the war
[21:13] *DX_Zoi* But it wouldnt hurt. maybe I should go pay him a visit
[21:13] *DX_Zoi* lol
[21:13] *Trip* hehe
[21:13] *Trip* at the UN forum, Lucky said that they would accept peace from CFC
[21:13] *Trip* since there has been 5 turns of no combat
[21:13] *DX_Zoi* BTW, we recently had our elections
[21:13] *Trip* which is what Mongoose ruled is the requirement for peace
[21:13] *Trip* ahhh, cool
[21:14] *DX_Zoi* I have elevated my status at Fantikou
[21:15] *DX_Zoi* I am the new President
[21:16] *Trip*
[21:16] *Trip* congratulations
[21:16] *Trip* glad to hear it
[21:20] *DX_Zoi* BTW, any chance of Invention coming our way soon?
[21:20] *DX_Zoi* we sent another 40g
[21:20] *DX_Zoi* +700+
[21:21] *Trip* great, thanks
[21:21] *Trip* hoping you wouldn't forget that, we'd have lost some units or buildings if you hadn't
[21:21] *Trip* Invention: not sure yet
[21:21] *Trip* we can deliver it to you if you wish, however, GWT doesn't yet have it
[21:22] *Trip* and if you have it then it will further reduce the costs, as we've explained before
[21:22] *Trip* something like 10% of the cost
[21:22] *Trip* that's quite a bit of gold
[21:22] *Trip* we will, of course, immediately send Invention to you upon GWT acquiring it
[21:22] *Trip* without any other contact
[21:22] *DX_Zoi* understandable
[21:22] *Trip* the longer we can keep GWT technologically inferior the better
[21:22] *Trip* but, as I said
[21:22] *DX_Zoi* I agree
[21:22] *Trip* Invention is yours, as agreed to, and if you wish for us to deliver it, we shall
[21:23] *DX_Zoi* I will bring it the people again, but think I can hold them off for this very good reason
[21:23] *DX_Zoi* Did Apolyton acquire Gunpowder yet?
[21:24] *Trip* nope
[21:25] *DX_Zoi* does CGN have it yet?
[21:25] *Trip* not that I'm aware of
[21:26] *DX_Zoi* hmmmm......what are you researching right now, and how much gold are you spending to do so
[21:26] *Trip* Education
[21:26] *Trip* we are doing deficit research with the assistance of the gold you have been sending, and it is helping to speed things up quite a bit
[21:26] *DX_Zoi* Trying to see how close to parity we can get....
[21:26] *Trip* I believe we should have it done in 5 turns
[21:27] *DX_Zoi* I thought it would help, and look forward to giving more in the near future
[21:28] *DX_Zoi* but it would most likely mean immediate disclosure of tech were we to come close to your gpt outlay(though that is not likely)
[21:30] *Trip* once you get some more Markets, Libraries and bigger pop cities then you guys can probably start helping to research different parts of the tree as well
[21:30] *DX_Zoi* we havent even considered building Libraries because of our arrangement
[21:31] *Trip* right
[21:31] *Trip* but once you get Markets down and some new cities up
[21:31] *DX_Zoi* yes, I have a plan
[21:32] *DX_Zoi* that will reach completeion just after the next election cycle(re-election tactic)
[21:32] *Trip* ahhhh
[21:32] *Trip* clever
[21:32] *DX_Zoi* somewhat kidding, but we do have things in the works
[21:33] *Trip* good to hear
[21:33] *Trip* tech superiority will be our greatest advantage over GCA and GWT
[21:33] *Trip* btw, do you think you might be able to get another Galley out of Yun any time soon?
[21:34] *DX_Zoi* wasnt planning on it, but I could.... I know you guys were "this close"
[21:34] *Trip* yes
[21:34] *Trip* it was quite a shame :\
[21:34] *DX_Zoi* I understand your position though
[21:35] *Trip* you were in Despotism for much of the war
[21:36] *Trip* so war Weariness is hitting you a lot later and in less amounts
[21:36] *Trip* we're just trying to get peace so we can get our cities back and our luxury slider down
[21:36] *DX_Zoi* like I said, I understand
[21:37] *DX_Zoi* and I must apologize for not standing with yourselves and CGN in regards to playing back from 30 AD
[21:37] *DX_Zoi* 390**
[21:38] *DX_Zoi* We just saw too many bad things that could come of it
[21:38] *Trip* yes, well
[21:38] *Trip* hopefully things will work out
[21:39] *DX_Zoi* Plus we wanted to seem somewhat neutral at the UN, even though we are with CGN/APO
[21:41] *DX_Zoi* you didn't enter war with GWT, did you?
[21:41] *Trip* nope
[21:41] *Trip* we are still at peace
[21:41] *Trip* unfortunately, in some ways
[21:41] *Trip*
[21:42] *DX_Zoi* thats good, at least
[21:42] *DX_Zoi* true
[21:42] *Trip* hehe
[21:42] *DX_Zoi* how is CGN holding up? Is GWT making a play for their mainland(hence the jump)?
[21:43] *Trip* no, no
[21:43] *Trip* CGN was outflanked by GWT
[21:43] *Trip* badly
[21:43] *Trip* the only way to save their army was with a jump back to the capital
[21:43] *Trip* CGN is barely holding the line, hoping to get Gunpowder and some Muskets before GWT can break through
[21:44] *DX_Zoi* Is there any way we can get them gold temporarily to help their efforts, or are they okay as afr as research goes
[21:44] *Trip* they're good with research, AFAIK
[21:44] *Trip* they're going to stop once they've finished Gunpowder
[21:44] *Trip* I think they're quite close
[21:45] *DX_Zoi* thought so, last we talked they were like 4-5 turns away rom GP. can't remember when that was though
[21:45] *DX_Zoi* going to stop....research?
[21:46] *DX_Zoi* and then build up upgrade and rush cash?
[21:46] *Trip* temporarily
[21:46] *Trip* mainly upgrades
[21:46] *Trip* Muskets are quite important right now
[21:46] *DX_Zoi* I see
[21:46] *Trip* they have to stop the blue hordes
[21:46] *DX_Zoi* oh yeah
[21:47] *DX_Zoi* So after Education, are you taking the Navigation path?
[21:48] *DX_Zoi* and if so, do you plan on joing the hostilities once you can cross the ocean?
[21:48] *Trip* not sure yet
[21:48] *Trip* we are tenatively planning on doing Astronomy next
[21:48] *Trip* as for joining the fun over there, it depends on what happens, but there are no concrete plans to do so as of now
[21:49] *DX_Zoi* I think if the balance starts to tip to strongly in one's favor, we will have to get involved
[21:49] *Trip* agreed
[21:50] *DX_Zoi* We are actually in the beginning stages of readying a force to do just that
[21:50] *Trip* excellent
[21:50] *DX_Zoi* although that is still some time away
[21:50] *Trip* yes
[21:50] *Trip* hopefully things do not go sour before then
[21:51] *DX_Zoi* I know
[21:53] *DX_Zoi* well, I think that catches us up somewhat; I guess in the meantime, I wil look for you here first
[21:54] *DX_Zoi* if something comes up, or will PM you
[21:54] *Trip* great
[21:54] *Trip* you can also PM Togas, our FAM
[21:54] *Trip* that would probably be a better way to contact us
[21:54] *Trip* FAM = Foreign Affairs Minister
[21:54] *DX_Zoi* good deal, FYI I retained my ambassador post as well.
[21:55] *DX_Zoi* I knew that ; )
[21:55] *Trip* hehe
[21:55] *Trip* just making sure
[21:55] *DX_Zoi* np
[21:55] *DX_Zoi* anyway, gotta run. I will keep in touch
[21:56] *Trip* great
[21:56] *Trip* nice chatting
[21:56] *Trip* talk to you later
[21:57] *DX_Zoi* same here....until then : )
[21:57] *Trip* 'Til lata |
Summary:
DZ has been promoted to President of CFC, in addition to being our ambassador.
We discussed peace with GCA briefly, I informed him that we will be getting peace from them next turn, and that CFC could do so as well (based upon the 5-turn rule). I also requested that CFC get a Galley together to take down the GCA Galley still in the lake, so that we can avoid the WW from having to attack it ourselves (since they are suffering less WW than us, it seems).
He asked about us sending them Invention, and I told him that we should not do so yet (in order to keep the cost higher for GWT), but if they really wanted it, we would deliver it to them. DZ said that he could probably convince people to forgo it until GWT gets it.
I requested that CFC begin Libraries relatively soon, once they get some more cities and Markets up. This will allow them to do their own research later on when our economy gets stronger.
He asked about CGN and Gunpowder, I told him that CGN was going to finish it soon. I told him that CGN plans on stopping research to build up gold in order to stop the GWT hordes. They are in the process of starting an expeditionary force in case things go sour on the other continent (GWT overruns CGN or vice versa).
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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Chat with miccofl, mainly about saltpeter.
quote:
[17:57] *miccofl* we have roaded slatpeter 2 of Washington
[17:57] *miccofl* there is a god
[17:57] *miccofl*
[17:58] *Trip* hello
[17:58] *Trip* that's excellent!
[17:58] *Trip* what about us?
[17:58] *miccofl* good thing it's saltpeter and not slatpeter too
[17:59] *Trip* hehe
[18:00] *miccofl* Big Furry City, roaded hill
[18:00] *Trip* awesome
[18:00] *Trip* which tile?
[18:01] *miccofl* 4-4
[18:01] *miccofl* could be in Hispanica's radius as well
[18:03] *Trip* ahhh, great
[18:04] *Trip* what other sources can be seen?
[18:04] *miccofl* give me 5 and I'll have the map
[18:04] *Trip* okay
[18:05] *Trip* I'll leave you be
[18:07] *Trip* any Webringians in sight and/or up to trouble? (once you get the chance to answer)
[18:13] *Trip* do you know by when you might send the save?
[18:14] *miccofl* http://www.miccofl.net/Civ3/ISDG/ResourceMap162.jpg
[18:14] *miccofl* not a clue at this point
[18:15] *miccofl* they have 6 galleys in the Gulf of the dead frogs now
[18:15] *miccofl* landed 3 pikes in the jungle
[18:16] *Trip* which jungle?
[18:16] *miccofl* 1-1-1-1 of where Boston used to be
[18:17] *Trip* odd place to put some Pikes...
[18:17] *miccofl* agreed
[18:18] *miccofl* think they bailed because NSS Vehement was in the vicinity?
[18:18] *miccofl* only thing close, 3 galleys
[18:19] *miccofl* looks like 3 coming down in the east, we have 3 - should be interesting
[18:20] *miccofl* GCA sword is now 6-6-9 of Agincourt
[18:21] *miccofl* their galleys will deliver their cargo, but they will never see home
[18:21] *Trip* possible
[18:21] *Trip* which Galleys?
[18:21] *miccofl* we ended up with 175 gold
[18:21] *Trip* how many can you muster to take them down?
[18:21] *Trip* better than 0
[18:27] *Trip* Settler for Waterloo 8-9?
[18:28] *miccofl* undecided and unpolled, martial law will have to determine that
[18:29] *miccofl* my staff is MIA
[18:30] *Trip* hmmmm
[18:30] *Trip* it really would be a good idea...
[18:30] *Trip* otherwise they can squeeze through past Waterloo
[18:30] *Trip* GCA can't spy for them
[18:30] *Trip* all they'll see is a vet Musket in each city
[18:30] *Trip* they won't know how many
[18:32] *miccofl* I'm not the one needing convincing
[18:32] *Trip* I'm just giving you fodder
[18:32] *Trip* if you DON'T build a city there, then they can get past Waterloo
[18:32] *Trip* or, if you try to defend Waterloo 8-9 without a city there, they'll be able to see what you have instead of just seeing a 4/4 Musket and not know what else might be behind
[18:33] *Trip* you can build one in 3 turns if Saxton switches this turn
[18:34] *miccofl* 4 turns if I use the existing one
[18:34] *Trip* existing one?
[18:34] *miccofl* (1 of Floral Park)
[18:34] *Trip* ahhh
[18:34] *Trip* or you could do that
[18:34] *Trip* what do you have in Agincourt right now?
[18:35] *miccofl* Waterloo and Arlington are the last frontier barracks cities
[18:35] *miccofl* 6 Knights, a Warrior (R) and 2 cats
[18:43] *Trip* now that you've got Gunpowder and Saltpeter, you may want to cut your iron soon once you get 15 or 20 Muskets upgraded
[18:44] *Trip* once you get the "impenatrable" outer shell set up, you'll need to defend the innards
[18:44] *Trip* if they crack their skull on a dozen Muskets, they'll look for other ways to get past the line...
[18:44] *Trip* having a big Knight stack in reserve would be a huge help
[18:45] *miccofl* may I quote you on that?
[18:45] *Trip* sure
[18:45] *miccofl* Thanks
[18:45] *Trip* a lot of us are definitely concerned about a naval landing
[18:45] *Trip* they seem to be massing Galleys as well
[18:45] *Trip* faster you can get all those Galleys you have to the Gulf the better
[18:46] *Trip* also, a city at Waterloo 8-9 will allow your eastern Galleys to get there also
[18:46] *Trip* with a few in there you can transfer units between Agincourt and the Waterloo 8-9 city as well
[18:46] *Trip* in case they cut the road between the two cities (which is likely) |
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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You people want logs? So be it. Be prepared for at least 2 or 3 per day.
quote:
[21:18] *Trip* I would suggest moving a Pike from Perris into Agincourt ASAP
[21:18] *Trip* it will help mask your Knights there... GWT won't know whether or not you have a load of Pikes there
[21:20] *miccofl* Wake Pvt. Dick (Perris) 6-6-6
[21:20] *Trip*
[21:20] *miccofl* thanks
[21:20] *Trip* no problem
[21:23] *miccofl* how long do you need us to hold up the turn?
[21:23] *Trip* one question
[21:23] *miccofl* ask away
[21:24] *Trip* we are discussing about whether or not you building a "fake" saltpeter city between Perris and Arlington
[21:24] *Trip* as a distraction
[21:24] *Trip* however, it's been brought up how much GWT can actually see of your land
[21:24] *Trip* do you know?
[21:24] *miccofl* not sure
[21:24] * mongoose201 has joined #isdg-Embassy1
[21:25] *miccofl* snoop
[21:25] *Trip* I remember hearing that they got a scout through
[21:25] *Trip* do you know all of where he went?
[21:25] *mongoose201* haha
[21:25] *miccofl* ot sure on the Perris Arlington area
[21:25] *miccofl* came down by Waterloo
[21:26] *Trip* right...
[21:26] *Trip* what about near Washington?
[21:26] *miccofl* surveyed near our capitol and went west
[21:26] *Trip* south or north of the capital?
[21:26] *miccofl* when he came back barbs killed him near where hannibal is now
[21:26] *miccofl* has never seen Micco, Tampere, Sevenoaks, Columbus, etc
[21:27] *Trip* I seee
[21:27] *miccofl* not sure what the Frogs gave them though
[21:27] * WhiteBandit has joined #isdg-Embassy1
[21:33] * mongoose201 has left #isdg-Embassy1
[21:34] *miccofl* guess we bored him
[21:35] *Trip* haha
[21:41] *miccofl* so why am I holding? we need another settler?
[21:44] *Trip* no, nevermind
[21:46] * miccofl kind of likes the idea of building a city out of cardboard in the middle of the desert and painting it red
[21:46] * miccofl thinks it reminds him of blazing saddles
[21:46] * miccofl hopes GWT hasn't seen it
[21:47] *Trip* hehe
[21:47] *Trip* if you can find a place to build a Settler
[21:47] *Trip* but there are more important places to build cities...
[21:47] *Trip* Waterloo 8-9 in particular :P
[21:47] *miccofl* Saxton
[21:48] *Trip* how long before you send the save?
[21:48] *miccofl* 2 min
[21:48] *Trip* hehe
[21:48] *Trip* great
[21:50] *miccofl* it's all you
[21:50] *Trip* got it
[21:53] * BigFree has joined #isdg-Embassy1
[21:56] *Trip* GWT has Invention
[21:57] *miccofl* thanks, ne neglected to check
[21:57] *miccofl* we
[21:57] *miccofl* only two of us
[21:57] *Trip*
[21:58] *miccofl* would have been 3 but Furloaf not feeling well
[21:58] *Trip* too bad
[22:05] *Trip* miccofl, question
[22:05] *Trip* if we are to send you a loan of gold for upgrades, what is the turn that would be ideal for you to recieve it (when you upgrade)
[22:06] *miccofl* we rushed a barracks at Agincourt, next turn the bulk of the units could/would pass through Arlington with only 1 move point left
[22:06] *miccofl* 2 turns
[22:07] *miccofl* nope, just looked at the shot; next turn
[22:07] *miccofl* that's what I get for second guessing myself
[22:08] *Trip* miccofl: if you rushed the Barracks at Agincourt, why not just upgrade there?
[22:09] *miccofl* no reason not to
[22:10] *miccofl* the trick will be remembering not to upgrade Pvt. Dick until the red cardboard city is built
[22:11] *Trip* hehe |
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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Another chat with DX_Zoi.
quote:
[17:14] *DX_Zoi* hello Trip
[17:15] *Trip* hiya
[17:15] *DX_Zoi* didi you happen to check for Invention this time out?
[17:17] *Trip* ahhh, woops
[17:17] *Trip* saw that GWT had it, forgot to send it this turn though
[17:17] *DX_Zoi* hehe
[17:17] *Trip* will do so next time
[17:17] *DX_Zoi* please do : )
[17:18] *DX_Zoi* You can imagine my concern when I received an unsolicited PM from zeri asking if we wanted Invention
[17:19] *Trip* haha
[17:19] *Trip* indeed
[17:19] *Trip* completely forgot that I could send it
[17:20] *DX_Zoi* np
[17:21] *DX_Zoi* what do we need to do to secure Education when you discover it? we are not quite in the position to increase our gpt just yet
[17:21] *DX_Zoi* but soon
[17:21] *Trip* I'll make note in the forum so we don't forget to send again
[17:22] *Trip* currently things are perfectly in line for you guys to get sent Education, though we also wish to do the denial scheme with GWT for that tech
[17:22] *Trip* just as long as we continue the gold-for-tech deal, then we will send Education once GWT gets it
[17:23] *Trip* unless you have plans on building Universities soon
[17:23] *DX_Zoi* not yet :P
[17:24] *Trip* didn't think so
[17:24] *DX_Zoi* I just want to make sure that we stay viable in our trades with you
[17:24] *Trip* right
[17:24] *Trip* everything is fine
[17:24] *Trip* Inv will come your way next turn
[17:24] *DX_Zoi* One thing, though, is that GWT will obviously be going for GP next so the wait for Education could be a long one for us
[17:25] *Trip* it could be, yes
[17:25] *DX_Zoi* will you be holding Education from CGN as well?
[17:25] *Trip* we may catch you up to speed once we do Astronomy, so you can build Caravels and such
[17:25] *Trip* I'll have to run it by the Senate
[17:25] *Trip* yes
[17:25] *Trip* we have a deal with CGN to withhold all techs
[17:26] *Trip* no swapping of Gunpowder, Education, or any other techs until GWT has it
[17:26] *Trip* unless absolutely necessary
[17:26] *Trip* brb
[17:26] *DX_Zoi* ok
[17:30] *DX_Zoi* I should run a similar proposal past my people so that we can be on the same page
[17:31] *DX_Zoi* People had been asking about Invention, and then we had the short delay of game
[17:32] *DX_Zoi* Now I can have them vote to accept this proposal officially
[17:33] *DX_Zoi* Please poll your people about tech parity at Astronomy, and we will do the same
[17:33] *DX_Zoi* and let me know if you will need increased gpt from us to hold our end of the deal come Astronomy
[17:34] *Trip* sounds good, I shall
[17:37] *DX_Zoi* great
[17:37] *DX_Zoi* anything else new?
[17:37] *Trip* hmmm
[17:37] *Trip* don't think so
[17:37] *DX_Zoi* we are considering peace with GCA, but will take another turn to discuss it
[17:38] *Trip* okay
[17:38] *Trip* they landed a Spear up near our colony
[17:38] *DX_Zoi* I have a feeling that Galley will just have to hang around for awhile
[17:38] *Trip* I see you have an elite Sword nearby... maybe you can use it as leverage
[17:38] *DX_Zoi* No worries though, right?
[17:39] *Trip* not really
[17:39] *Trip* we have a couple Galleys trailing it... if they attack they declare war and we sink it :P
[17:39] *DX_Zoi* Definitely...I think we have proven that our sword has only the best intentions when he heads north. ; )
[17:40] *Trip* hehe
[17:40] *DX_Zoi* sounds good to me....sounds like we will opt for peace then
[17:41] *DX_Zoi* I'll will alert our Swordsman of his new orders
[17:42] *Trip* okay
[17:42] *Trip* let us know if anything happens :P
[17:42] *DX_Zoi* did you know that CGN finally got Gunpowder?
[17:42] *DX_Zoi* will do
[17:42] *Trip* yes, I'd heard
[17:42] *Trip* good news
[17:42] *DX_Zoi* very
[17:42] *Trip* hopefully it'll make some difference
[17:43] *DX_Zoi* they will need some intensive upgrade cash
[17:43] *DX_Zoi* but it will definitley make some difference
[17:43] *Trip* indeed
[17:44] *DX_Zoi* anyway thanks, and hope I didnt come off as accusatory in the beginning of our talk. ; )
[17:45] *Trip* nope, my mistake
[17:46] *DX_Zoi* : ) until next time
[17:46] *Trip* 'Til lata |
I forgot to send Invention to CFC this past turn, so we need to do that on our next one.
CFC probably is going to get peace with GCA now.
Some discussion on our tech deal. I told him about how we should keep Education until GWT gets it, and he is going to go back to his team to see if that's okay. He also wanted to reaffirm our current gold-for-tech deal, and they should be able to increase the amount they send us per turn up from 40 soon.
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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Chat with miccofl.
quote:
[15:46] *Trip* miccofl, you there?
[15:51] *Trip* I just posted a thread in the embassy forum about military strategy, and I encourage you and all other members of CGN to take a look at it
[15:51] *Trip* http://www.civgaming.net/forums/sho...=&threadid=4479
[15:52] *miccofl* reading
[16:02] *miccofl* should stimulate some interesting responses
[16:03] *Trip* hopefully positive
[16:03] *miccofl* much of it has been already discussed
[16:04] *Trip* hard for one such as myself to know
[16:04] *Trip* but I thought I'd weigh in nonetheless
[16:04] *miccofl* nothing like positive reinforcement
[16:04] *Trip* anything you particularly agree/disagree with?
[16:05] *miccofl* I can't say that I disagree with any of it, I expect to see some resistance to a few of the ideas presented
[16:05] *miccofl* mainly the cutting of iron
[16:06] *miccofl* a 3 shield and a 4 shield tile - both in use
[16:06] *Trip* they could be mined immediately afterwards
[16:06] *Trip* if you have Workers in position
[16:07] *Trip* if you pillage and have 3 Workers mine that same turn, then ZERO shields are lost
[16:07] *Trip* you get the same shield output
[16:07] *Trip* I can't really do any hands-on testing, but I can safely assure you that cutting the iron to build Horses and then upgrading them will yield a lot more Knights in the end than building them from scratch
[16:09] *Trip* especially if you can breach the 160 GPT limit... allowing 2 Knight upgrades per turn
[16:09] *Trip* I guess that's how you have to measure it
[16:09] *Trip* whether or not your economy now can produce that
[16:09] *miccofl* 135
[16:10] *Trip* what about # of Knights on average per turn?
[16:10] *Trip* can you find out how many Knights you've built in the last, say, 10 turns?
[16:11] *Trip* 135 GPT allows you 1.7 Knights per turn for upgrade
[16:11] *Trip* so over a 10-turn stretch you could upgrade 17 Knights
[16:12] *miccofl* about 7-9 more than we built
[16:12] *Trip* there you go
[16:12] *Trip* cutting the iron will give you THAT many more Knights
[16:12] *Trip* also, you'll be able to produce other things in addition to the Horses for upgrade
[16:12] *Trip* since you can probably easily produce more than an average of 2 Horses per turn
[16:13] *Trip* you could build Muskets in other cities, or other improvements
[16:13] *Trip* so cutting the iron would give you much more out of your economy as a whole
[16:15] *miccofl* the trick will be cutting it
[16:16] *Trip* yes
[16:16] *Trip* you'll have to mass your Workers
[16:16] *Trip* should probably get started now
[16:16] *miccofl* will be 3 or 4 turns before it can be cut
[16:16] *Trip* yes, that's okay
[16:16] *Trip* you'll still need some gold to do Muskets
[16:16] *Trip* like I said in my post, 8-10 per city is good for now
[16:16] *Trip* past that you should use the gold for Knights
[16:17] *miccofl* will have 5 muskets completing in 3 turns
[16:17] *Trip* awesome
[16:17] *Trip* we are working on the loan terms now
[16:17] *Trip* we are probably looking at 600 gold
[16:22] *Trip* yes
[16:22] *Trip* you should get Workers to your irons ASAP
[16:22] *Trip* along with a unit to pillage them
[16:22] *Trip* 3 Workers for iron on a hill
[16:22] *Trip* 4 for a mountain
[16:22] *Trip* in order to rebuild the mines in a single turn and prevent any loss of shields
[16:23] *Trip* the gold you generate in the next 3-4 turns will be easily enough to upgrade quite a few more Muskets
[16:23] *miccofl* like I said, 3-4 turns
[16:23] *Trip* right
[16:23] *Trip* I didn't know if you were referring to units to cut the iron, or Workers, or both
[16:23] *miccofl* both
[16:23] *Trip* cool
[16:23] *miccofl* not as worried about the hill as the mountain
[16:24] *miccofl* Hull is not exactly a good producer
[16:24] *Trip* wouldn't imagine so
[16:24] *Trip* if you can do at least 15 SPT out of Arhus, then that's fine
[16:24] *Trip* 2-turn Horsemen
[16:25] *miccofl* currently at 18 iirc
[16:25] *Trip* ahhh
[16:25] *Trip* then you don't really have to worry about it
[16:25] *Trip* pillaging the iron will reduce the SPT from 4 to 2
[16:25] *Trip* it'll go down to 16 SPT instead of 18
[16:25] *Trip* and once you're at at least 15, it doesn't really matter
[16:26] *miccofl* in any case there is no point in cutting it before the 5 Muskets are done
[16:27] *Trip* yeah
[16:27] *Trip* once you do pillage the iron you should try to get your cities at 15, 10 or 8 SPT
[16:27] *Trip* for optimum Horseman output
[16:27] *Trip* for the cities you want to produce Horses from, that is
[16:28] *Trip* anything above or in between those numbers is wasted |
Just discussing the thread I posted in the CGN embassy forum.
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:34
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After seeing this discussion about worker times, I can see again that CGN is an SP noob team that will need as much help as possible, so I sent Miccofl this e-mail
quote:
Subject: Mining (and Roading) times for Indusrious Workers and slaves on a Mountain, Non-Democracy, pre-Replacable Parts
Micco,
To answer the question that you were asking Trip, in chat, about the worker times to rebuild a pillaged Iron Mountain Mine.
Starting with 1 worker to the max of 9 workers, the time for completion of a mine on a mountain is 9-5-3-3-2-2-2-2-1. 9 Industrious workers are needed to do it in 1 turn. All "slaves", no matter what civ they come from, will work 1/2 as fast as one of your Native workers, so 2 slaves is equil to 1 on your regular workers. This is the Non-Industrious/your slave timeings for the same thing, 18-9-6-5-4-3-3-3-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-1. 1 slave and 2 native industrious workers would take 4 turns to Mine the mountain (1 native = 2 slaves, thereby, this combo would be equil to 5 slaves working at once).
PBEM is a bit strange when it comes to worker things and the last turn of an item has the item built (and contributing the the particular cities build) and the worker frozen. Example, 3 of your workers start mining a mountain, it will take 3 turns to complete. The mine is finished on the begining of the 3rd turn (so technically 2 turns without the Mine) and it makes it's full contribution at that time. The workers are frozen and can go to the next task on the next turn.
Roading a mountain is 5-3-2-2-1 and 9-5-3-3-2-2-2-2-1 for slaves. 1 slave and 4 natives will get it roaded in 1 turn.
If you can swing it, send 4 native and 1 slave workers to your Iron mountain and have them ready for the Pillage. They take 2 turns to mine, but then the mine IS available at the begining of the next turn, and it would be as if you had never pillaged that tile. Then, you can have the workers ready for reroading it in 1 turn when you are ready to reroad.
E_T
Minister of the Interior of Apolytonia
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I'm only sending them this Information and nothing more, i.e. my entire worker chart. If they had really wanted this info, to better micromanage their workers, they would have already have figured this out. I'm not going to do all of their work for them....
MoI E_T
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
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Our chat with Mongoose in #isdgfamtalks:
quote:
mongoose201> I think our friend miccofl has had a meltdown
Arnelos> oh?
Arnelos> what now? :sigh:
Togas> ???
Togas> what's the latest?
Aidun> because of the issues with GWT?
mongoose201> He just told the rest of the team in their forum that if they wanted to play the turn, then do so, but he wasn't going to be a part of it
mongoose201> he posted that after some others, including sl3 and dauphin, posted they would rather just play on
Arnelos> geesh
Aidun> wow
mongoose201> then he said he would inform them tomorrow if he was still going to be a part of this game, or someting to that line
Togas> he needs a vacation
* Arnelos is reminded of the days when someone on Apolyton linked us to miccofl.youaremyfriend.com
mongoose201> this doesn't appear to be of a sensitive nature, so I will paste it
mongoose201> If you all want to continue, go ahead and play the turn. I will be sitting this turn out while I decide if I wish to continue - quite frankly I am sick of the bullshit in this game. If I wanted to deal with this level of bullshit, I would stay at work where I get paid for it. Don't get me wrong, you guys have been great and for a good while, it was fun. Of late though it has become more stress and aggravation than it is worth. I'll let y'all kn
Arnelos> mongoose - you got cut off there
Arnelos> "I'll let y'all kn-----"
mongoose201> I'll let y'all know my decision tomorrow.
Arnelos> mongoose - has someone passed on to you the potential problems that E_T thought of?
mongoose201> no, they have not
Togas> send him those from our forum
Arnelos> Mongoose - basically, it comes down to this
Aidun> What Miccofl experiences, isn't that just the same as in the PTW DG, or am I mistaken?
Arnelos> A good portion of the team thinks that trading cities back and force to create a virtual RoP is an acceptable use of game mechanics. However, as E_T first raised (though we had discussed in the MZO C3C DG, as you know), trading them back and forth for mutual improvement/wonder use (healing in the same barracks) should be outlawed.
mongoose201> I can understand that position on the mechanics
mongoose201> as well as the healing... that would not be acceptable, IMO
Arnelos> the problem, as it seems many on the team think, is not trading the cities... that is acceptable... the problem arises if they're using the same barracks or harbor to heal units of both teams in the same city
Arnelos> especially if it's in the same turn
Arnelos> but would be objectionable either way
mongoose201> yes
Arnelos> since the price of RUSHING these improvements should really be expended by EACH team... not one for both
Arnelos> that's the concern
mongoose201> yes... I can't remember if there is a barracks in the city in question or not... and of course, I couldn't let you know if there were one... but yes, I see the point
Arnelos> right
Arnelos> Personally, I think that GWT is far more reasonable than GCA... it may not hurt to approach their leadership with this issue and kill it even before GCA/GWT start using it for that purpose
Arnelos> hell, as long as they pay for TWO barracks and TWO harbors such that each team is using their own rather double-using the same ones, that might even be an acceptable compromise.
mongoose201> yes, but even that is getting into a grey area as far as being exploitive
Arnelos> true
Arnelos> as I said, it *might* be an acceptable compromise... I offer no promises there
Arnelos> the issue needs to be raised... we'll just have to see what GWT offers
Arnelos> point is, I think that GWT can be reasonable
mongoose201> hehe... well, micco is just really sensitive... everyone gets that way when they have been through all the crap lately... I know there have been many times I would like to unplug my computer and never plug it back in...
mongoose201> but then my playboy.com membership would to to waste.. and I can't have that
mongoose201> go to*
Arnelos> lol
Arnelos> that and you're still on an ACDG team, though the exploit use in that game is about 10 times worse than in this one if what Kody tells me is true
mongoose201> okay... I like what you have laid out... it has less chance of being nightmarish compared to what I was planning.. CGN will have to get along as well as possible, and their position is not a horrible one
mongoose201> hehe, perhaps.. but that's against the AI
Arnelos> we may want to create some restrictions on the virtual RoP, though
Arnelos> for instance... we could make it illegal for the 2 teams to move through the same chokepoint ON THE SAME TURN
mongoose201> yes.. like a 5 turn minimum
Arnelos> the number of turns is something we may have to compromise on, but it probably shouldn't be the current zero turn
Arnelos> *zero turns
mongoose201> 5 could be extreme... but say they had to hold a city for 3 turns... that would make them better consider their position, instead of just trading it back and forth at will
Arnelos> Mongoose - of course, part of the issue here is that whatever rule is put down here may impact Apolyton and CFC if we end up with a war on our continent and we want to assisst each other on either side of our chokepoints... transfering those chokepoint cities is a likely route we would take, though we would want to prevent it from being exploitive... we don't like exploits.
Arnelos> a multi-turn delay may be the most fair, however
mongoose201> yes.. I understand... and I feel that 3 to 5 turns would be fair as far as a minimum time to hold the city before trading it back
Arnelos> I'm going to side with fair over advantageous... I know most of my team would as well.
Arnelos> ok
Arnelos> We'll see what GWT has to say about that then if you propose it to them
Arnelos> hmm...
Arnelos> Aidun - you still here?
Arnelos> shoot
Aidun> yes
Arnelos> ah, there you are
Arnelos>
Arnelos> Mongoose - is CGN thinking about moving the game NOW or in the near future and how soon do we have to resolve this?
mongoose201> hang on.. let me check their turn chat room
Arnelos> well, even if CGN moves on, we're still going to need to resolve this issue for long-term
Arnelos> especially the trading of cities for mutual improvement/wonder use
Arnelos> it might not hurt if Aidun (our ambassador), who has a dialogue with GWT, can approach them on that issue.
Arnelos> What I'm wondering about is which way is the better way to go about this... a ruling from you or an agreement between GWT, Apolyton, CFC, perhaps CGN (I doubt GCA unless they tag along with GWT).
mongoose201> yeah.. that could be alright... trying to determine if CGN is playing or not.. doesn't look like they are
* MasterZen is now known as MZ[Thesis]
Arnelos> ok
* conmcb25_away has joined #isdgfamtalks
Arnelos> I'm just wondering which way is better... I *know* you prefer for us to work out things ourselves than you having to put your foot down, but I honestly don't know which is more effective. I'd normally side with us working out our differences on our own, but I have low faith in the efficacy of that.
mongoose201> yeah.. but in my experience, any ruling that I make is generally ignored and then argued about... that's why I'm trying to put some time into this one to think of what they will come up with in response
Arnelos> That said, as with the replaying turns idea, it would be a very constructive trust-building exercise if we actually managed to work an issue out without needing the admin to step in and put his foot down.
mongoose201> yeah, that would be good... I won't ask for a replay, there have been far to many of these delays... were some neccessary? yes.. but we can't have them every other week
Arnelos> Well, I hope miccofl calms down or at least takes a vacation to relieve some stress. As for GWT, Aidun can contact them and try to work something out with them. We might as well try.
mongoose201> yes, by all means, give it a shot
* Furloaf has joined #isdgfamtalks
Furloaf> Hi everybody
Arnelos> it might help, however, if you raised at least the *issue* in the U.N. forum and told the teams that you'd *like* to us work this one out on our own if we can, but that you will make your own ruling sould we fail to do so... that at least may help to prevent various parties from ignoring the issue.
mongoose201> yes.. hiya again Furloaf
Arnelos> hey Furloaf
Arnelos> Mongoose - workable?
mongoose201> yes..I'll post about it.. and let you teams work the communication channels to see if something happens there
mongoose201> I'll post a couple suggestions to get the ball rolling
Arnelos> ok
Arnelos> Aidun - are you getting this?
Aidun> yes, I have to contact them then ot first await the discussion in the UN?
mongoose201> posting now it should be up in 10 minutes or so
Arnelos> Aidun - go ahead and open contact about the issues
Arnelos> the U.N. thing will start soon enough
mongoose201> http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...p?p=66507#66507
* Togas is now known as TogasMERC
Arnelos> ok, thanks
mongoose201> :bows:
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Chat went into other subjects of little import to this team after that.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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small chat with bongo in our chat room:
quote:
Session Start: Thu Mar 11 14:33:50 2004
Session Ident: #isdgfamtalks
[14:33] * Now talking in #isdgfamtalks
[14:33] * Topic is '4Greetings! 2 Please type"1/notice (nick) Hello"2 for us when you enter this channel so that we know you are here. We will respond as soon as we can. Thanks. '
[14:33] * Set by BigFree on Mon Jan 05 21:13:07
[14:33] * ChanServ sets mode: +o MasterZen
[15:51] * bongo has joined #isdgfamtalks
[15:51] [bongo] hullo?
[15:51] [MasterZen] hello
[15:52] [MasterZen] welcome
[15:52] [bongo] Don't have time for a long chat
[15:52] [MasterZen] sure, go ahead
[15:52] [bongo] are there normally any around here? I may have better time tomorrow
[15:54] [MasterZen] yes, some of us are always here
[15:54] [MasterZen] if you want to come back tomorrow there will surely be one of us here ready
[15:54] [bongo] Good
[15:54] [bongo] Maybe I bring a friend
[15:54] [MasterZen] great
[15:55] [bongo] Hows your forum now btw, lot's of noise or just a sullen silence..
[15:56] [MasterZen] my forum? or Apolyton?
[15:56] [bongo] apolytons isdg forum, forgot that you have a forum of your own
[15:57] [MasterZen] ahh
[15:57] [MasterZen] lots of noise as usual
[15:57] [MasterZen] plus, we have an election... Trip vs. a banana. I think the banana is winning... hahahaah
[15:57] [bongo] even when the game has paused again...
[15:57] [bongo] haha
[15:58] [bongo] speaking of trip, I just had a chat with lucky about trips use of combat settlers. Clever stuff
[15:58] [MasterZen] yes, that's the one thing keeping us going. Maybe next time a banana will be your official ambassador... that banana is very very popular
[15:59] [bongo] shame that banana.gif isn't working...
[16:00] [MasterZen] well, GWT has used combat settlers pretty well. "Hi Guys" is a classic example
[16:01] [bongo] yeah, but it won't hurt to study others use of it
[16:02] [bongo] would you happen to know when miccofl is active on the forums?
[16:02] [MasterZen] on the forums? you mean CGN?
[16:03] [bongo] well, or the UN
[16:03] [MasterZen] ahh
[16:03] [MasterZen] I don't know, probably in a few hours
[16:03] [bongo] oh well, I'll be sleeping then
[16:03] [MasterZen] maybe he is online right now, it is 5pm in Florida
[16:04] [bongo] I'll look at it in the morning, I better find my bed now....
[16:05] [MasterZen] ok
[16:05] [bongo] Hope I get the time tomorrow, nice talking to you
[16:05] [MasterZen] sure
[16:05] [bongo] bye
[16:05] [MasterZen] hope to see you tomorrow
[16:05] * bongo has quit IRC (Quit: )
[16:35] * Disconnected
Session Close: Thu Mar 11 16:35:20 2004
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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Chat today with GWT Part 1
quote:
Session Start: Fri Mar 12 00:00:04 2004
Session Ident: #ISDGFAMTALKS
[11:04] »»» Join: bongo ( ~tom-rune.@193.80-203-30.nextgentel.com )
[11:05] bongo: Hello
[11:07] " bongo slaps E_T_bed_then_work around a bit with a large trout "
[11:08] bongo: d
[11:08] " bongo slaps BigFree|Away around a bit with a large trout "
[11:10] bongo: Wollen sie den Totalen Krieg?!?
[11:12] bongo: Ich habe eine Grosse Knackwürst!!
[11:39] bongo: Og skuta het Skomvær av Porsgrunn by
[11:42] bongo: Time for a deal then
[11:43] bongo: How much would you ask for gunpowder?
[11:43] bongo: 10 gold?
[11:43] bongo: Hmmm, a bit steep don't you think?
[11:44] bongo: How about 7 gold then, and a cookie.
[11:44] bongo: Deal
[11:50] bongo: about your workers tehn, are those for sale??
[11:50] bongo: Dunno, we kind of like our workers....
[11:50] bongo: Cookie?
[11:51] bongo: YES!!!
[11:59] »»» Join: WhiteBandit ( ~whiteband@c-67-164-14-112.client.comcast.net ) (2 comchans: @#isdgfam @#apolytonISDG)
[11:59] »»» ChanServ sets mode : +o WhiteBandit
[12:01] bongo: someone here at last?
[12:04] bongo: hello?
[12:04] " bongo slaps WhiteBandit around a bit with a large trout "
[12:04] WhiteBandit: hello!
[12:04] WhiteBandit: what's up my friend?
[12:05] bongo: Just a diplomatic visit
[12:05] bongo: been here for an hour already
[12:05] WhiteBandit: oh wow
[12:05] WhiteBandit: yeah, it's been slow as of late
[12:05] bongo: I've made a lot of nice deals already, they are kind of one-sided though..
[12:06] WhiteBandit: haha
[12:06] WhiteBandit: "if you don't like this deal, feel free to say something and disagree! nothing? okay! i'll pass it on to my people"
[12:06] bongo: You just agreed to sell us all your workers for a cookie
[12:07] WhiteBandit: what kind of cookie?
[12:07] bongo: dunno, but as soon as I see one in-gam it is yours
[12:08] WhiteBandit: i'll go for that deal
[12:08] bongo: I was going to bring a friend as well but he has some connection problems...
[12:10] WhiteBandit: anythign you'd like to discuss in particular?
[12:11] bongo: 2-3 things
[12:12] " BigFree|Away is back after 14h18m: auto-away after 30m idle "
[12:12] »»» You are no longer marked as being away after (14h 18m) as (auto-away after 30m idle) on (GRNet)
[12:12] »»» You are no longer marked as being away on (GRNet)
[12:12] »»» #Civ3Dem Cannot change nickname while banned or moderated on channel
[12:13] bongo: that ww issue is an old favourite of course
[12:13] bongo: we have some details about teleporting
[12:13] bongo: and finally the current issue
[12:13] »»» BigFree|Away is now known as BigFree
[12:14] »»» BigFree is now known as BigFree|Away
[12:14] »»» BigFree|Away is now known as BigFree
[12:14] WhiteBandit: excellent
[12:14] WhiteBandit: lay it all out
[12:14] WhiteBandit: i actually have some errands i need to run in a moment
[12:15] WhiteBandit: but i can take a message back to the team and perhaps even setup an official chat time so we can all meet?
[12:15] bongo: well, my schedule is a bit unpredictable the following days..
[12:16] bongo: I think you have some idea bout our opinion already
[12:17] " bongo slaps BigFree around a bit with a large trout "
[12:32] BigFree: sorry
[12:32] BigFree: I was doing some work for the Mercenary team
[12:32] bongo: whos that?
[12:33] BigFree: It's a team for a C3C Intersite game held at MZO
[12:34] bongo: Oh, nothing to do with the c3c intersite game at idg then
[12:36] BigFree: no
[12:37] BigFree: I think I'm on too many teams
[12:37] BigFree: too much work to be done
[12:37] »»» Join: Preussi ( Java_user@pD9FF41DA.dip.t-dialin.net )
[12:37] Preussi: I´m here
[12:37] bongo: true, I'm in 5 demo-teams no
[12:37] Preussi: Good evening at all
[12:37] bongo: Not bad
[12:38] BigFree: hello
[12:39] Preussi: It took only 90 minutes for me to get here
[12:39] bongo: Now we can make deals, just remember to vote if someone diagree
[12:40] Preussi: I´m known as Iron Jackson at Apo
[12:40] BigFree: ah
[12:40] bongo: Where do you guys live btw?
[12:41] BigFree: We are running a variable opinion poll about the gifting of cities and if any and what restrictions should be placed on it
[12:41] BigFree: I live in California
[12:41] bongo: Many americans on your team then?
[12:41] BigFree: It's 12:41 PM here. A very nice day as well, 76 degress and 100% sunshine.
[12:41] Preussi: California dreamin´ I´m from Dortmund, Germany
[12:42] BigFree: Yes, most of the team is from US
[12:42] BigFree: we have some from Europe and Australia, Canada, Mexico, New Zeland
[12:42] bongo: Explains why diplimacy is difficult, most of us live in GMT+1
[12:43] BigFree: Yes
[12:43] BigFree: Plus the language barrier
[12:43] BigFree: that doesn't help much
[12:43] Preussi: Won´t say that´s a barrier. English is usually spoken by most of the people in the web
[12:43] bongo: Ikkenoe problem, vi snakker mange språk her
[12:44] BigFree: One of the restrictions being touted tight now is that a team would have to hold onto a gifted city for a certain amount of tunrs before it can be re-gifted back to the gifted Civ.
[12:44] Preussi: Had to buy plain Civ3 in English, because the german version was released 6 months later
[12:45] bongo: Is that why CGN are holding the save? I we just abandonded 'alpha' we cold move over without any concerns at all
[12:47] BigFree: I think thats why they are holding it
[12:47] bongo: The prospect of a blinking panama canal probably worries them more...
[12:48] bongo: I have some problem deciding myself actually, if this just is clever strategy or an exploit..
[12:49] BigFree: It's touchy for me as well
[12:50] bongo: I have this feeling that many object it because it is relatively new..
[12:50] BigFree: If the designers had made it so that an RoP allowed you to go through another Civ's cities, then this would be moot; but they did not do it that wya for some reason or another.
[12:50] BigFree: Just as SMAC allows it
[12:51] BigFree: There are things you can do in C3C that you cant in PTW
[12:51] BigFree: So, we are stuck with what PTW rules are
[12:52] BigFree: Some may feel that gifting the citiy every turn would consitute the breaking of the rules made by the desginers
[12:52] bongo: Or what the game engine allows us to do. The game is so complex that there is no way the disegners had full control over what was and was not intended.
[12:53] Preussi: I think they worry about the fact that there is a double use of the resources maybe. Although that´s silly.
[12:53] BigFree: Maybe or maybe not, we cannot guess really. I'd be inclined to play it and accept as the rules, what the game does do or does not do or allow as compared to other games.
[12:53] bongo: Not that we would spend the rest of the game playing ping-pong with cities, even 'alpha' is somthing that was not even neccesary
[12:54] bongo: If a 'thy must hold on to your gifted cities' rule had been in place we would have disbanded it..
[12:54] BigFree: I dont think the sharing of resources or buildings is a problem for my team all that much. A team would have to hold a city for more than one tunr to reap the benefits of it.
[12:55] bongo: Sharing of wonder is a totally different matter....that could be ugly
[12:55] BigFree: Would you guys agree to a rule that says you have to hold a city for a predetermined amount of tunrs before it is gifted back?
[12:55] Preussi: of course
[12:55] bongo: Depends on the length I guess
[12:56] BigFree: 3-5 turns seems to be the favorite now.
[12:56] bongo: that doesn't sound bad at all
[12:56] Preussi: that`s acceptable
[12:56] BigFree: Cool
[12:56] BigFree: Now, about the Wonders
[12:57] bongo: are you holding seperate polls on wonders?
[12:57] BigFree: Things like sharing Leo's is wrong
[12:57] BigFree: Not a seperate poll for that as of yet, though it is mentioned
[12:57] bongo: I think it should have two degrees.
[12:58] bongo: Wonders that help someone trigger their GA should be outlawed....
[12:58] BigFree: Even if you held a city for 5 turns, you could have two Civs very efectively using that wonder
[12:58] BigFree: I agree with that last one
[12:58] bongo: Other wonders should either be permanent gifts or have a very long holding time
[12:59] BigFree: I agree there a well
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[12:59] BigFree: BTW, just so you know, I hold no official position on the team
[12:59] »»» BigFree sets mode : +o Aidun_bedtime
[12:59] BigFree: There's Aidun, he's the official Ambassador to GWT
[12:59] Aidun_bedtime: Hello Bongo and Preussi
[13:00] bongo: Well, we're ministers but all things have to be approved in polls anyway
[13:00] »»» Aidun_bedtime is now known as Aidun
[13:00] BigFree: Let me recap for him in our other channel
[13:00] BigFree: we will brb
[13:00] bongo: cool, I'll go downstairs for a cold beer :P
[13:01] Preussi: Hmm, looks like Aidun some kind of neighbour. Are you from the Netherlands (entering via tiscali.nl) ?
[13:01] Aidun: yep
[13:02] Aidun: Wo wohnst du in Deutschland?
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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Chat with GWT Part 2
quote:
[13:02] BigFree: I just read Bongo's self chat up above...very funny 
[13:02] BigFree: [11:08] " bongo slaps BigFree|Away around a bit with a large trout "
[13:02] BigFree: [11:10] bongo: Wollen sie den Totalen Krieg?!?
[13:02] BigFree: [11:12] bongo: Ich habe eine Grosse Knackwürst!!
[13:02] BigFree: [11:39] bongo: Og skuta het Skomvær av Porsgrunn by
[13:02] BigFree: [11:42] bongo: Time for a deal then
[13:02] BigFree: [11:43] bongo: How much would you ask for gunpowder?
[13:02] BigFree: [11:43] bongo: 10 gold?
[13:02] BigFree: [11:43] bongo: Hmmm, a bit steep don't you think?
[13:02] BigFree: [11:44] bongo: How about 7 gold then, and a cookie.
[13:02] BigFree: [11:44] bongo: Deal
[13:02] BigFree: [11:50] bongo: about your workers tehn, are those for sale??
[13:02] BigFree: [11:50] bongo: Dunno, we kind of like our workers....
[13:02] BigFree: [11:50] bongo: Cookie?
[13:02] BigFree: [11:51] bongo: YES!!!
[13:03] Preussi: Dortmund, also gar nicht so weit weg von der holländischen Grenze. Und selbst ?
[13:04] Aidun: Ich wohne in der nähe von Den Haag, ganz auf die andere Seite
[13:05] Preussi: Habe gestern mein erstes Spiel auf Emperor mit den Niederländern gewonnen. Gute UU
[13:06] Aidun: Die Niederländern sind stark wen man verteitigen muß.
[13:06] Preussi: Das war auch mein Problem.
[13:07] Aidun: Warum solltest du dan verteitigen?
[13:08] Preussi: Ich hatte zwischendurch so im Mittelalter arge Probleme mit den Karthagern (meine Nachbarn zur Linken), als ich im Krieg auf der anderen Seite mit den Arabern war
[13:09] Preussi: Da haben die Swiss Mercenaries doch sehr geholfen, meine Städte zu halten. Immerhin kam da schon Kavallerie von den Karthagern.
[13:10] Preussi: @ Bongo: Are you brewing the beer yourself ?
[13:11] BigFree: HAHA
[13:11] bongo: not at all but I have some wet landry at my hands
[13:11] Aidun: Zwei Kriege auf dasselbe moment ist immer schwierich und dann mußt man viel verteitigen ja. Ich spiele nur auf Monarch, das finde ich einfachlicher weil ich dan nich uber alles denken muß.
[13:12] BigFree: Ok, I'm going to dismiss myself here since I cant read what's going on. See you all later. If you need me just say "BF"
[13:12] Preussi: War auch erst mein 2.Spiel auf Emperor. Du hast wirklich recht, auf Emperor fängt so langsam das Level an, wo man keine Fehler machen darf
[13:13] bongo: hehe, I think we will go on in english when we return to isdg
[13:13] Aidun: I could translate it for you BF
[13:13] Aidun: ;p
[13:13] " BigFree slaps Aidun around with a pink Macintosh "
[13:13] Preussi: We can talk also in English.
[13:13] Preussi: lol
[13:13] BigFree: that woiuld be preferable
[13:14] BigFree: thanks
[13:14] Aidun: Toteler Krieg!!!
[13:14] Preussi: We were talkin about our hometowns first and then came over to my first game on Emperor I just won yesterday with the Dutch.
[13:15] Preussi: But back to our topic.
[13:15] Aidun: right
[13:15] bongo: Aidun, are you up to date now?
[13:16] Aidun: Not on matters of your team since your last PM
[13:16] BigFree: Aidun, check the ISDG channel
[13:16] Aidun: lemme see if I received something more
[13:17] bongo: we have been chatting for some minutes when you arrived, I haven't sent you more
[13:17] Aidun: Oh right, thanks BF, Bongo, I'm reading it
[13:23] Aidun: Well, it seems that you have cut most of the grass BF, thanks.
[13:23] Aidun:
[13:23] BigFree: HAHA
[13:24] BigFree: IAt least I didn't cut the cheese
[13:25] Aidun: ok let's make this diplomatic talk a cheesy one
[13:25] bongo: To summarize, gifted cities should be held 3-5 turns, wonders that triggers GA cannot be gifted, other wonder can only be gifted permanently or with a very long holding time
[13:26] Aidun: I agree on that too, but I have no power to approve it.
[13:27] Aidun: There are two things that I think that have to be specified more
[13:27] bongo: Go on
[13:27] BigFree: I would think certain wonders would not need a restriction while some do
[13:27] Aidun: the range of turns, 3-5, which amount will we set as a minimm?
[13:28] Aidun: *minimum
[13:28] bongo: true, cities with empire-wide effects is the ones we're looking at here
[13:29] Aidun: and would you want to restict these or not?
[13:29] bongo: I would be okay with anything in the 3-5 range..
[13:29] BigFree: I think 5 is what has the most support on our team.
[13:29] bongo: empire-wide is the ones that need restriction
[13:30] bongo: the oracle, lighthouse, the great wall, leos, the pyramids
[13:30] Preussi: sistine, bach
[13:30] Aidun: Bongo, I will poll the team what they prefer more, 3, 4, or 5
[13:30] bongo: colossus is just affecting that one city...
[13:31] bongo: Try to get a poll deciding bith what i sacceptable and what is preferrable
[13:31] bongo: ?? after two beers???
[13:32] BigFree: I was think 20 turns for the Wonder restriction; but we have not polled this at all and is just my own opinion.
[13:32] bongo: 20 is a nice round number...
[13:33] Aidun: I think 20 is ok
[13:33] bongo: Oh, is there any way to keep the game going while we decide this? The gifting of alpha had so little impact that it is hard to measure
[13:34] Aidun: that is something that is unfortunately up to CGN and not us
[13:34] BigFree: I think if we can say that we are in agreement that city gifting has these certain restrictions, then we can get CGN to continue. Though, we'd have to ask them.
[13:35] bongo: If it makes people happy we can issue a one-sided statement saying that we will hold any cities for a minimum of 5 turns until an official decicion is made
[13:35] BigFree: I think that may help
[13:35] Aidun: yeah, that would help indeed I think
[13:36] bongo: I think we can talk GCA into this as well, or simply not accept the cities they try to give us
[13:36] * Paddy is on IRC (#civ3Dem)
[13:36] BigFree: HAHA
[13:36] Aidun: There is then another issue that was mentioned in the discussion and weighs pretty heavy for many of our members
[13:36] Aidun: Haha
[13:36] bongo: refresh my memory
[13:37] Aidun: Improvement sharing
[13:37] bongo: please explain
[13:37] Preussi: hmmm ?
[13:38] Aidun: Well, there are certain strategies that, especially if we would allow the city trade for movement purposes, in which you could trade a city to quickly heal troops for intance.
[13:39] Aidun: quickly hiding in a gifted city
[13:39] Aidun: How does your team look to that issue?
[13:39] bongo: Ok, now I get it. You can achieve the same with combat settlers
[13:40] »»» Join: Trip ( Trip-@18vpn024.vpn.colostate.edu ) (1 comchan: @#apolytonISDG)
[13:40] Aidun: yes, but then you have paid for it with two citizens, while the other option is free
[13:41] Aidun: I'm talking about an existing city that is gifted to heal units
[13:41] bongo: Well, you have to have a city first...
[13:42] Preussi: Fortunately this hasn´t happened until now.
[13:42] bongo: There's not much to be gained from it I think...
[13:43] bongo: If you gave your ally a city, and they occupied it...sorry but I still have some problems seeing where the possible exploit is
[13:43] Aidun: Preussi, yes, fortunately is hasn't, but when you have a large wounded fleet passing around the coast and it is suddenly attacked by CGN ships and GCA has a city on the coast, reachable for your ships. You see the dilemma?
[13:44] Preussi: I think we should prohibit it already now before anyone uses this.
[13:44] Aidun: well, people here see the exploit in the fact that you get a free city with a free baracks/harbor.
[13:45] bongo: I don't know. Like all gifting it has a cost..
[13:45] Aidun: but that cost is much lower than that of building/rushing a barracks or harbor
[13:45] Preussi: @ Aidun. You´re right. But if we prohibit it now, then there won´t anyone be lead into temptation.
[13:46] bongo: Let's just suggest that GWT makes an alliance with CFC and sail a fleet to their help...wouldn't it make perfect sense if thay gave us a city as a forward base?
[13:47] BigFree: Yes, thats reasonalbe
[13:47] bongo: I see how it can be a problem, but I also see that it will be very difficult to distinguish it from 'regular' gifting
[13:47] Aidun: that is reasonable in the Real world, but here you don't pay for it
[13:48] Aidun: It is the dilemma that I have personally: in the real world much is possible what is not possible in C3
[13:48] bongo: why not, wouldn't you let us borrow one of your harbors for a while if we paid in steel to your enemies
[13:50] Aidun: You are pointing on including cities with harbors and barracks in trade deals.
[13:50] bongo: I have to think about this some....there's pros and cons and they are all wearing shades of grey...
[13:50] Aidun: Bongo, true
[13:52] Aidun: Shall we say that we both take it back to our teams with the arguments that have been exchanged by us and meet again to further discuss this for an agreement?
[13:52] bongo: The biggest problem is that is will be difficult to make a clear rule on what is 'normal' gifting and what is exploitative sharing of buildings.
[13:53] bongo: Yeah, we leave the shared buildings for now
[13:53] Aidun: Like you said, there are some pro's and contra's
[13:53] bongo: You asked me about some clarifications on teleportation earlier?
[13:54] Aidun: Ehm, can you help me remember when?
[13:54] »»» Join: MasterZen ( ~raguil@dup-200-65-167-58.prodigy.net.mx ) (2 comchans: #isdgfam #apolytonISDG)
[13:54] »»» ChanServ sets mode : +o MasterZen
[13:55] bongo: In a pm, you wanted to get some details on the exception on teleporting
[13:55] MasterZen: hello
[13:55] Aidun: one moment, I have to re read what I wrote in it. I've been pretty busy since then
[13:55] Aidun: Hi MZ
[13:56] MasterZen: heya Aidun, hellow fellow Webringians
[13:56] bongo: Guten Abend
[13:56] Trip: btw
[13:56] Trip: we want MZ back
[13:57] Trip: you can't use him to help kill CGN any more :P
[13:57] MasterZen: hahaha
[13:57] BigFree: It's just amazing to see MZ around at all, let alone against CGN. :P
[13:58] MasterZen: they're just jealous because other teams name their units with my name instead of theirs :P
[13:58] Trip: fah, I have cities named after me
[13:59] MasterZen: shaddap and keep mining the hills of Irongard :P
[13:59] bongo: I have 30 Ansars with my entire shopping list on them
[13:59] Aidun: Oh yes, Bongo, I have the point that was made in our forum here:
[14:00] Trip: we have a Knight named Bambi
[14:00] Trip: I'm sure it must be MZ's fault somehow
[14:00] bongo: My favourite Ansar is Ahmed Klapstuhl
[14:01] bongo: aidun, bring it on
[14:01] E_T_bed_then_work: Who???
[14:01] »»» Quit: Trip : Read error: Connection reset by peer
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[14:02] Aidun: I'm writing down the issue in scentences
[14:02] Trip`: seriously now, where did you come up with Sacknasenhausen? :P
[14:02] »»» E_T_bed_then_work is now known as E_T[shower_then_work]
[14:02] bongo: Why do you think we almost always spend the full 24 hours?
[14:03] Aidun: some of our members can talk in some mathematical way that I can't post here
[14:03] Aidun: too difficult
[14:03] Trip`: weeeird
[14:03] bongo: aidun ? try me...
[14:03] Trip`: I've gotta go
[14:03] Trip`: 'Til lata
[14:03] »»» Quit: Trip` : Quit:
[14:04] bongo: Preussi, how did we come up with sacknasenhausen?
[14:05] Preussi: I´m looking in the history, I got no plan yet. It was before I joined the game. Give me a few minutes to search the records
[14:07] Aidun: Bongo I have it in clear words here now:
[14:07] bongo:
[14:07] Aidun: The situation is like this: two civs are at war with each other and the troops of the attacking civ (A) are before the city of the attacked civ (B). Civ B attempts to destroiy the troops in a preventive attack, some succeed, but most troops fail. Civ A is wanting to not attack them further if Civ B giftes the city to them. So Civ B offers Civ A a peace treaty in which they offer to gift them the city at once. But the problem is now th
[14:09] Aidun: my English grammar is very bad in this
[14:10] bongo: I'm following you so far
[14:11] Aidun: what do we do about it? allow the warping when it occurs as side effect?
[14:12] bongo: Oh, I didn't get all of it..it is cut in the sentence 'But the problem is now th/'
[14:14] Aidun: But the problem is now that there were still ytroops in B's city. When it is forbidden to warp those troops back to the capital, the deal would be impossible...
[14:15] bongo: Ah, either they would have to walk, or they would have to ask the UN for permission. If they are fighting a two-front war, then another enemy could block it
[14:17] bongo: I can think of only one situation that would warrant an administrator approval against someones vote..
[14:19] bongo: if a third civ 'C' was involved, and the turn order was such that the city would be empty on Cs turn, then B should be allowed to jump the troops. So A could walk into the city they just got
[14:19] »»» Quit: MasterZen : Quit: must eat
[14:20] bongo: did that make sense?
[14:23] Aidun: With that I agree too. But when if there are but two civs, and A demands B to immediately gift it, otherwise the war goes on. What is then more important: the option to make peace with the warping as side effect or the prohibition of warping?
[14:24] bongo: If warping is prohibited A will know that their demand cannot be met because of game rules
[14:24] Preussi: Found the history for "Sacknasenhausen". At the time the city was found there was no name for it so the guy who played our turns at that time named it just "New one" (or "Neue" in German). Afterwards he asked the members of our team for names. He called the team members "Sacknasen" because no one answered for a few days and then one member came up with "Sacknasenhausen". It´s no spectacular explanation, but the history how we came up wit
[14:25] Preussi: Hmm, not history. I meant story
[14:25] Aidun: That is true, Bongo, but that does not solve the dilemma: then you just outlaw it but you dont give an answer and thus the question remains.
[14:26] Aidun: I am only wondering how you think about it
[14:28] " BigFree is away: auto-away after 30m idle "
[14:28] »»» You have been marked as being away on GRNet: (auto-away after 30m idle)
[14:28] »»» BigFree is now known as BigFree|Away
[14:28] bongo: well, jumping is not allowed so units have to leave the city prior to gifting. Some units will then have some serious problems getting home but I prefer that to teleporting any day
[14:30] bongo: No teams can make demands that is impossible due to game-mechanics or rules....well, they can but they will look stupid
[14:31] Aidun: ok, thanks, I will take the answer to the person who mentioned it
[14:31] bongo: I see that I should have added another exception about gifting cities in the front-line.
[14:32] Aidun: I'm listening
[14:32] bongo: Now, the turn order allow us to give front-cities to GCA without CGN ever seeing them empty. GCA cannot give them back thoug, as they will be empty on CGNs turns, unless a jump i allowed
[14:34] bongo: I don't see the need for us to use this in the current game though...
[14:35] Aidun: I guess that is a dilemma like the others: what is more important?
[14:36] bongo: even if we allowed jumping from front-cities, you still had to march those buggers back to the front enough to make any Kriegsminister shudder
[14:37] Aidun: Logistics is the biggest problem in every war
[14:38] Aidun: From Alexander the Great until the Iraq war
[14:38] Aidun: * until=to
[14:38] bongo: true, it only gets worse when you add some allies
[14:39] Aidun: Were there any issues you wanted to discuus with us other than the ones discussed?
[14:39] bongo: MY wife is calling...bet time
[14:39] Aidun: Ah well, that will end the chat then.
[14:40] bongo: hmm, WW is an old favourite but we can cover that some other time
[14:40] Aidun: Let's meet next week then
[14:40] Aidun: or in the weekend
[14:41] bongo: we'll see. We take todays discussion home for review in our forums...
[14:42] Aidun: We'll stay in contact via PM then.
[14:42] bongo: anyone care to send me a log BTW, I haven't found the log option in my irc-client
[14:42] Aidun: I will
[14:42] bongo: Great
[14:42] Aidun: what is the adress?
[14:42] bongo: ISDG@gmx.de
[14:42] bongo: our team address
[14:43] Aidun: ok I will send it to there
[14:43] Preussi: @ Bongo: Options
[14:43] Preussi: Not Options. Tools. There is a menu called Log files. It´s the one that´s named ISDGfamtalks.
[14:44] * Paddy has left IRC
[14:44] Preussi: Found it ?
[14:44] bongo: Can't find it...maybe we have different versions...well
[14:44] bongo: Goodnight to all then It has ben a pleasure
[14:45] Aidun: I can't find in my version either and I have 6.03
[14:45] bongo: maybe we have to register...
[14:45] bongo: bye then
[14:45] Aidun: Gute Nacht
[14:45] Preussi: Gute Nacht @ all
[14:45] Aidun: it was a pleasure for me too
[14:45] »»» Quit: Preussi : Quit: I was using mIRC for StarChat.
[14:45] »»» Quit: bongo : Quit:
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
Thank god for autocensor.
The sailor was coming out in me tonight.
BF can relate to that |
Yes I can. 
I think I talked CGN into trying to stay in this game with some help of Zachariels calculator.
Part 1
quote:
Session Start: Fri Mar 12 00:00:05 2004
Session Ident: #isdg-Embassy1
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[13:25] BigFree: Just so you know, we are currently working with GWT to get a compromise on the gifting city situtation
[13:25] BigFree: something like having to hold a city for 3-5 tunrs before it can be re-gifted.
[13:26] BigFree: and another restriction on sharing wonders
[13:27] BigFree: possibly making it so that certain wonders would have to be held for a minimum amount of turns
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[14:04] miccofl: hmm, looks like there's no one here but the peeps, time for some Lucky bashing 
[14:05] miccofl: The only word that is auto-censored at CGN is F***, I am tempted to add Lucky to the list
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[19:48] Furloaf: Hello
[19:54] Trip: hello
[19:55] Furloaf: Played some of the PTW turn
[19:55] Trip: cool
[19:55] Trip: will it be done tonight?
[19:55] Furloaf: after much heated diiscussion decided to re-join in 24 hours after a poll
[19:55] Furloaf: No
[19:56] Furloaf: the poll for whether to remain in the game is close as well
[19:56] Furloaf: the polls are different
[19:56] Furloaf: the 24 hour poll concerns actions of the turn, specifically about our frontline defense
[19:57] Furloaf: Just wanted to let you know
[19:58] Trip: okay
[19:58] Trip: may I ask as to what in particular you are polling about your defense?
[19:59] Furloaf: Whether to dump every unit possible into Agincourt or to save the knights
[20:00] Furloaf: If the knights should help defend
[20:00] Furloaf: I'm getting twisted around sorry
[20:00] Trip: can you see where the GWT main Ansar stack is yet?
[20:00] Furloaf: Yes
[20:02] Furloaf: 9-9 of Agincourt
[20:04] Furloaf: afk
[20:04] Trip: wow
[20:04] Trip: how many Ansar?
[20:04] Furloaf: 29
[20:04] Trip: d'oh
[20:04] Furloaf: several pikemen in there as well
[20:04] Furloaf: a horsemen and a scout too
[20:04] Trip: hmmm
[20:05] Furloaf: most of the team doesn't care anymore
[20:06] Furloaf: I care more now than I did the last fiasco
[20:06] Trip: well, at least someone does
[20:09] »»» Part: Trip ( trip@civ-37012B8E.client.comcast.net )
[20:10] »»» Join: Trip ( trip@civ-37012B8E.client.comcast.net )
[20:10] »»» BigFree|Away is now known as BigFree
[21:05] »»» Join: conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime ( conmcb25@civ-25D00EA5.smithvilledsl.net )
[21:30] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Furloaf
[21:30] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: ?
[21:44] Furloaf: Yes
[21:47] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Hi
[21:47] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: I just wanted you to know we posted a chat we had with the Germans
[21:48] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: On the city gifting issue
[21:48] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: So we can get some kind of restrictions in place
[21:48] Furloaf: I'm reading it now
[21:49] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Great
[21:49] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Are you still minister of labor?
[21:58] Furloaf: interesting read
[21:58] Furloaf: Yes I am
[21:58] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: OK
[21:58] Furloaf: just miccofl resigned
[21:58] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Sorry to hear about miccofl
[21:58] Furloaf: Which made SL3 acting Premeire
[21:58] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Yes I heard
[21:59] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Thats too bad
[21:59] Furloaf: I'm somewhat 2nd in command now but nothing is official
[21:59] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: congrats and good luck
[21:59] Furloaf: Yes he was a good a leader but I fully understand his reseasons for stepping down
[22:00] Furloaf: Hey I didn't ask for this ;-)
[22:00] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Ha Ha
[22:00] Furloaf: reseasons? it has been a long day
[22:00] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Why did he step down
[22:00] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: I think I know
[22:00] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: but not really
[22:00] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Just fed up?
[22:00] Furloaf: yes
[22:01] Furloaf: and GCA/Lucky's comments at the UN
[22:01] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: he was pretty fed up and stressed out this week.
[22:01] Furloaf: Yeah he has been working a lot lately
[22:01] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Lucky is a ****ing *******
[22:01] Furloaf: and that is saying it nicely
[22:02] Furloaf: it is nice that GWT are willing to talk and reason
[22:03] Furloaf: with just reading the official team diplomatic responses it is easy to become jaded and think there is no use in negotiating
[22:03] Furloaf: or any merit in attempting
[22:05] Furloaf: I have trouble using the best wording sometimes... which is why I'm not in the foreign affairs branch
[22:06] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Wee got some good guys in Diplo
[22:06] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: And bongo has a history at Apoly
[22:06] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: So there is a connection
[22:06] Furloaf: That is good
[22:07] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: He plays with some of our guys in the in house DG's.
[22:07] Furloaf: we have 1 or 2 german speaking members but niether have posted in a while or participated
[22:07] Furloaf: Had some French but Grenouile didn't like to talk...
[22:08] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: The germans dont usually either
[22:09] Furloaf: We had pretty regular contact before the war
[22:09] Furloaf: Then things went sour
[22:09] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: I think they are talking now because they are a tad bit worried about there reputation
[22:12] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: You guys are staying in the game correct?
[22:12] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Did you have another poll?
[22:13] Furloaf: We don't know yet
[22:13] Furloaf: We made a new poll tonight concerning the current turn actions
[22:13] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Good
[22:13] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Even if it goes bad
[22:14] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: I think you guys should stick it out
[22:14] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Go turtle and make GWT pay
[22:14] Furloaf: I do too
[22:14] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: And if it gets really bad we got a cozy corner for you over by us
[22:14] Furloaf: Personally I think threatening to quit the game is very immature
[22:14] Furloaf: Makes us look like crying babies when the game gets tough
[22:15] Furloaf: Haha Lucky would love that
[22:15] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Well I did not want to say that
[22:15] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Ha Ha **** him
[22:15] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: But Im hoping you hold em at the chokepoints
[22:16] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: If you do that it will be REALLY good!
[22:16] Furloaf: That was the issue of the new poll
[22:16] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: really?
[22:16] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: What?
[22:16] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: To hold at the choke point?
[22:20] Furloaf: During the chat tonight we were not sure what to do at agincourt
[22:20] Furloaf: There were only 3 members in there so we decided to ask the rest of the team
[22:21] Furloaf: The issue centered around the Knights on whether to use them fortified in the city or to withdraw them
[22:23] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Where are the Knights?
[22:23] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: On the GWT side or Arhus side?
[22:23] Furloaf: There are around 10 near Agincourt
[22:23] Furloaf: one or two on the GWT side, handful in the city
[22:23] Furloaf: few behind
[22:24] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Hmmmm
[22:24] Furloaf: one of the major concerns was that if the knights are all defeated we have nothing to counter-attack with or stop troops that they land with galleys
[22:25] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: True
[22:25] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: But if they get by the choke point you are going to have a tough time.
[22:25] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Are your slow movers from Arhus getting close?
[22:27] Furloaf: Yes that was the counter-arguement
[22:27] Furloaf: 2 turns from Agincourt
[22:27] Furloaf: and their movement is up when they enter the city
[22:28] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: How afr away is GWT from hitting it with Ansar?
[22:28] Furloaf: We have not moved them this turn yet
[22:28] BigFree: I would save your Knights for now and use them for defense. Once you get a city at 3-3-2 of Agincourt it will need defenders; maybe the Knights can go there once they are relieved by the Pikescoming from your Capital now.
[22:28] Furloaf: They could hit this turn
[22:28] Trip: GWT can get units past that chokepoint before CGN can build a city
[22:28] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Hmmm
[22:28] Furloaf: Yeah that was our plan Bigfree but there are 30 Ansar in the area
[22:28] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Im with BF then
[22:29] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: By the way welcome guys
[22:29] BigFree: There's no way to get that city up?
[22:29] Furloaf: Settler is still about 2 turns away Ithink
[22:29] BigFree: Hmm
[22:29] BigFree: well, if GWT adavnces with it's slowmovers then you have time
[22:29] BigFree: If GWt goes straight for Waterloo, then not
[22:30] Furloaf: I believe they will
[22:30] Trip: if they planned to advance with their slowmovers they wouldn't have their Ansar ahead like this :P
[22:30] Furloaf: They have a handful of pikemen in the ansar stack
[22:30] BigFree: Well, they do have Pikes with their stack now don't they?
[22:30] BigFree: So it seems they are playing it relatively safe
[22:30] Trip: landed from boats :P
[22:30] Trip: only a few
[22:31] Trip: if CGN had their Knights ready to attack they could tear through
[22:31] BigFree: Only the next turn will tell
[22:31] BigFree: for now, I would say to Fortify your Knights in Agincourt
[22:32] BigFree: Don't show your hand to GWT
[22:32] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: and hope they hold out until the slow movers get there
[22:32] BigFree: Make it look like you are waiting for a counter attack against them
[22:32] Trip: yes
[22:32] Trip: keeping them in Agincourt is probably best for now
[22:32] Trip: if they DO try to seal off the chokepoint to the south by racing forward with their Ansar, you can attack them with the Knights you have
[22:32] Furloaf: Good points
[22:32] BigFree: That will make them more likely to wait for slowmovers
[22:32] Trip: since they won't have Pike support
[22:32] Trip: the only thing they CAN do this turn is attack Agincourt
[22:32] Furloaf: Our fears are losing all the knights
[22:33] Trip: hopefully they won't attack at all because of the Muskets
[22:33] Furloaf: true
[22:33] Trip: hopefully...
[22:33] Trip: they don't know how many are there
[22:33] BigFree: Or hopefully the RNG God will give them some "Luck"(tm)
[22:34] Furloaf: The consequences of if they do attack and take Agincourt would be horrendous to us
[22:35] Furloaf: They know that all of our Pikes that were in Boston could not be back at the front yet
[22:35] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: bongo is a sharp guy
[22:35] Trip: you have, what, 2 Muskets in Agincourt now, right?
[22:35] BigFree: Yes, but you do have MI's advancing with them
[22:35] Furloaf: yes
[22:35] Trip: well, they could chicken out if they see more than 1
[22:35] BigFree: And they did not know you had every unit in Boston
[22:35] Trip: if they try to test the waters, seeing if there's only one
[22:35] Furloaf: the main point is that they are not there this turn
[22:36] Furloaf: our Pikes and MI
[22:38] BigFree: I think the numbers of attacking and defending actually support defending in this case as well. 3 defense with 150% bonus due to city size(50), Fortified(50), on a hill(50). That makes a knight a defense of 7.5 against an attack of 4.
[22:39] Furloaf: It is a plains tile
[22:39] BigFree: oh
[22:39] BigFree: damn
[22:39] Furloaf: But yeah still that is defense of 6
[22:39] BigFree: Ok, defense of 6 then
[22:39] BigFree: Lets look at it the other way
[22:40] BigFree: ansar in forrest has defense of 2.4
[22:40] BigFree: 2.5
[22:41] BigFree: So, knights have a 62.5 chance of defeating an Ansar when Knight atacks.
[22:41] BigFree: Where as the Kights have a 66.66% chance of wining on the defense instead
[22:41] BigFree: Plus through in the cats
[22:42] BigFree: And the ability to defend more than once
[22:42] BigFree: How many Knights can you have there at the end of this turn?
[22:43] Furloaf: I'll check
[22:43] BigFree: Actually how many of any unit can you have there this turn
[22:43] BigFree: I will run the numbers for your chances of an all out attack by GWT
[22:44] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: Furloaf
[22:44] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: You are in good hands with Trip and BF
[22:44] BigFree: The 66.66% is actually a little more because we forgot to add the 15% bonus for the plains tile.
[22:44] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: I need some sleep
[22:44] BigFree: goodnight con
[22:44] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: I got a long day toimorrow
[22:44] conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime: g'night
[22:45] Furloaf: Goodnight
[22:46] Furloaf: 2 Fortified Musketmen
[22:46] Furloaf: 1 Fortfied Warrior (Yay!)
[22:47] Furloaf: 13 Fortified knights
[22:47] Furloaf: and 3 Cats can make it
[22:47] BigFree: Ok, and there's 29 Ansar that can attack?
[22:48] Furloaf: Yes
[22:48] BigFree: ok
[22:48] BigFree: gimme a couple of minutes to run this
[22:48] »»» conmcb25_AlmostBeddieByTime is now known as conmcb25_sleeping
[22:48] Furloaf: 10 Pikemen
[22:48] Furloaf: with the Ansars too
[22:48] BigFree: ok
[22:48] Furloaf: A settler, a horsemen, and a scout as well
[22:48] BigFree: ok
[22:49] Furloaf: Wait scratch the settler
[22:49] BigFree: So attacking the Ansar stack is really out of the question since they have Pikes with them
[22:49] Furloaf: I saw scout and but read settler
[22:49] Furloaf: Yes
[22:49] BigFree: thats a 4 against a 3.75
[22:49] BigFree: not good odds
[22:50] Furloaf: nope
[22:50] BigFree: Plus it does nothing to get rid of the Ansars
[22:50] BigFree: Defending is the only real option now
[22:50] Furloaf: At the end of next turn the MI and Pikes from Boston can be in there
[22:50] BigFree: Nice
[22:51] Furloaf: I was of the stance to keep it but to remove the Knights from defending
[22:51] Furloaf: Hope they don't see our bluff and wait for the Catapults
[22:51] Furloaf: May change now
[22:52] Furloaf: Sorry another question was to just disband Agincourt
[22:52] Furloaf: option
[22:52] Furloaf: not question
[22:54] BigFree: Ok, if they attack you with all 29 they have a 20% chance at capturing Agincourt.
[22:55] BigFree: wait
[22:55] BigFree: Its worse
[22:55] BigFree: they only have a 7% chance
[22:55] BigFree: since they have rtreat ability
[22:56] BigFree: their units won't attack unitl dead
[22:56] BigFree: Definately hold onto aGINCOURT
[22:56] BigFree: oops
[22:56] BigFree: damn caps button
[22:57] BigFree: They may try one or two Ansars just to see what you have.
[22:57] BigFree: But I seriously think they will wait for protection
[22:58] Furloaf: It is seriously 7%?
[23:00] Furloaf: They can't retreat if attack a fortified knight?
[23:01] Furloaf: Nevermind I read your sentence wrong
[23:02] BigFree: brb
[23:06] Trip: where did all those GWT Pikes come from?
[23:08] Furloaf: Only 6 could have landed from galleys
[23:08] Trip: hmmm
[23:09] Furloaf: Believe they may have landed them ahead on a road or in the jungle between Boston and Agincourt when we were not looking
[23:09] Trip: be back soon
[23:09] Trip: right
[23:09] Trip: they landed some earlier
[23:09] »»» Trip is now known as Trip[bbs]
[23:23] Furloaf: If there is really a 93% chance of holding the city I think the answer to tthat poll is obvious
[23:24] Furloaf: The city will likely last to the next turn and then there will be all the MI and Pikes to reinforce it
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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Part 2
quote:
[23:29] BigFree: sorry, had a phone call
[23:29] BigFree: Bt, yes, the chances to hold the city for you is 93%
[23:30] BigFree: It was 80% but I forgot that Ansar will retreat when down to 1 HP
[23:30] BigFree: So their effectiveness is reduced a bit
[23:31] BigFree: Btu they do survive, so overall retreat is a good trait to have
[23:33] Trip[bbs]: don't move all the MI and Pikes to Agincourt though
[23:33] »»» Trip[bbs] is now known as Trip
[23:33] Trip: you still have the other chokepoint to worry about
[23:33] Trip: and once you get the Pikes and MIs into Agincourt you should withdraw the Knights
[23:36] BigFree: It depends on where the Pikes and Mi's are if they should divert some to Waterloo or not
[23:37] Furloaf: We routed some of the Pikemen to the south road
[23:37] BigFree: Cool
[23:37] BigFree: how many exactl
[23:37] Furloaf: the fastest route was by going north
[23:37] BigFree: ah
[23:38] BigFree: we just need to make sure the road directly between Agincourt and Waterloo is clear
[23:38] BigFree: Thats where the knights come in handy
[23:38] BigFree: and the MI's for that matter
[23:38] Trip: GWT will probably build the city between the chokepoints
[23:38] Trip: stealing the roads and cutting off access between them
[23:39] Furloaf: 6
[23:39] Furloaf: were diverted
[23:39] Furloaf: another could move that way this turn however
[23:39] Trip: until you get the other chokepoint city built
[23:39] Furloaf: We already moved the 6 inside
[23:39] Furloaf: inside Waterloo this turn
[23:40] Trip: ahh
[23:40] Furloaf: They don't have a settler in the stack, I misread the unit list when I saw scout
[23:40] Trip: ohhh
[23:40] Trip: well that's good
[23:41] Furloaf: They could be upgraded next turn
[23:41] Trip: don't have that to worry about at least
[23:41] Trip: but if they don't attack immediately they will eventually cut the roads between the two chokepoints on the east side
[23:41] Furloaf: Which also brings the talk of the loan
[23:41] Trip: and there's not really anything that you can do about that
[23:41] Furloaf: Yeah
[23:41] BigFree: Ok, so Waterloo will have 6 pikes that can be upgrade next turn?
[23:42] Furloaf: Yes
[23:42] BigFree: thats 720 gold
[23:42] BigFree: Wait, its less than that
[23:43] BigFree: Pikes are 30 shields
[23:43] BigFree: Muskets are 40 shields?
[23:43] Furloaf: 360gold
[23:43] BigFree: right, only 60 per
[23:43] Furloaf: 60*6
[23:43] BigFree: C3C I think the cost is higher
[23:43] Furloaf: Yeah
[23:44] BigFree: So, how much will you need to get them all upgraded?
[23:44] BigFree: How much will yuou have banked by then?
[23:44] Furloaf: at the moment we could have 332 gold next turn
[23:44] BigFree: so, you really only need a small loan
[23:44] BigFree: for this next turn
[23:44] BigFree: to do all 6 instea of 5
[23:45] Furloaf: 25 are heading towards Agincourt
[23:45] BigFree: Then the following turn you need a **** load
[23:45] Furloaf: that is 1500?
[23:45] Furloaf: my brain is mush tonight
[23:45] BigFree: yep
[23:46] Furloaf: they won't be able to upgrade until the turn after next
[23:46] Furloaf: They may not be that many left as well
[23:46] Furloaf: if GWT attacks them
[23:47] Furloaf: We can get back to you when we finish this turn tomorrow night on how much gold we have
[23:47] BigFree: right
[23:48] Furloaf: that is if our team doesn't quit or something else
[23:48] BigFree: If you can get 25 Pikes to Agincourt and they attack them, they will survive most definately
[23:48] Furloaf: poll is 40% stay, 60% quit now with 10 votes
[23:48] BigFree: There's no way in hell they can defeaqt 25 Pikes
[23:48] Furloaf: Yes but a few may die
[23:48] Furloaf: They will be un-fortified
[23:48] BigFree: Yes, but more Ansar will die than Pikes
[23:49] Furloaf: Still more will die than Pikes
[23:49] BigFree:
[23:49] BigFree: Ok, you job is to talk those that voted to quit to switch theri vote
[23:49] Furloaf: I was just mentioning that some of the 25 might be killed
[23:49] BigFree: right
[23:50] Furloaf: With the points made in this chat that might sway some votes, I hope at least
[23:51] Furloaf: With being able to hold the chokepoints some members might be more willing to stay with it, with the hope of handing it back to GWT
[23:51] BigFree: One other question: Out of those that wish to quit, will they allow those that wish to continue to do so? Or will the team just disband everything?
[23:51] Furloaf: I don't know
[23:51] BigFree: ok
[23:51] Furloaf: I would hope so, as I really don't want to quit
[23:51] BigFree: It's not hopeless in my eyes; faR FROM IT
[23:51] Furloaf: yes
[23:51] Furloaf: Caps lock again ;-)
[23:52] BigFree: You just need that city 3-3-2 from agincourt
[23:52] BigFree: My KB has it's keys too close together
[23:52] Furloaf: can build next turn
[23:52] BigFree: I bought a keyboard designed for PTW
[23:52] BigFree: great!
[23:52] Furloaf: But if the Pikes in Waterloo they won't be able to occupy it yet
[23:52] BigFree: Then the 6 Muskets can defend it
[23:53] BigFree: the nest turn after
[23:53] Furloaf: *But if the Pikes in Waterloo upgrade
[23:53] BigFree: right
[23:53] Furloaf: How is the keyboard designed for PTW?
[23:53] BigFree: depends on what GWt does
[23:53] BigFree: let me show you the KB
[23:55] BigFree: http://www.ideazon.com/newWebSite/p...lizations3.html
[23:57] Furloaf: Wow
[23:58] Furloaf: Would save some time
[23:58] BigFree: For an addict, yes.
[23:58] Furloaf: Round keys though would be different
[23:58] BigFree: It has neat features. If you change the KB from a normal one to the Civ 3 one, it will launch PTW or C3C for you
[23:59] Furloaf: Probably really annoying at first?
[23:59] BigFree: Yes, its a little different
[23:59] BigFree: I only bought it because i like novelty items
[00:00] BigFree: I can see a MP player using it to help his game though
[00:00] BigFree: When timi is important
[00:00] BigFree: *time
[00:00] Furloaf: the macro keys look interesting
[00:02] BigFree: I like it
[00:03] Trip: do you own any of the other types of overlays?
[00:04] BigFree: You guys have a 0.25% chance at a GL when defending against the 29 Ansar, if they all attack.
[00:04] BigFree: Just the Microsft Windows/IE KB that comes with the base unit
[00:04] Furloaf: Well that is the deciding factor right there
[00:04] BigFree: LOL
[00:05] Trip:
[00:05] Trip: yes
[00:05] Trip: that's all you should post
[00:05] BigFree: 1 in 400 isn't too bad
[00:05] Furloaf: the Warrior is a 3/3 leftover from a long time ago
[00:05] Trip: hehe
[00:05] Trip: barb hunter
[00:05] Trip: micco told me
[00:05] BigFree: He's the one who would give it liely!
[00:05] Furloaf: One of the first built
[00:05] BigFree: nice
[00:05] Furloaf: No he got put on riot duty I believe and then was forgotten
[00:05] Trip: we still have an upgraded 3/3 MI that was the 3rd Warrior we built
[00:06] BigFree: We just about sacraficed all ours
[00:06] Trip: where did micco go, by the way?
[00:06] Furloaf: Gen. micco is walking back with the Pikes
[00:06] BigFree:
[00:06] Trip: I mean the real one, not the unit
[00:06] Trip: our first Warrior got killed like 15 turns in from barbs
[00:06] Furloaf: he won several battles when he was an Elite and no GLs from him :'-(
[00:06] Furloaf: oh
[00:07] Furloaf: haha
[00:07] Trip: our second was BF, who died trying to kill a 1 HP GCA Horse :P
[00:07] Trip: you got a GL though :P
[00:07] Furloaf: I think he just logged off, taking a break from the PTW demo game
[00:07] Trip: ahh
[00:07] Furloaf: not sure if he'll still participate or not
[00:07] BigFree: I sure hope so
[00:07] BigFree: It's sad to quit completely
[00:09] Furloaf: Yeah
[00:10] Furloaf: Can you type or post the calculation that gives the 7& ansar chance of winning?
[00:11] Furloaf: 7%... I would look it up but I'm lazy...sorry
[00:14] BigFree: Ok
[00:18] Furloaf: Naming your cities after fruit now?
[00:19] Trip: hehe
[00:19] Trip: we are among the junglites
[00:19] Trip: you should have seen our start position
[00:19] Trip: desert to the north, jungle to the south
[00:19] Trip: could see them both the first turn :P
[00:20] Furloaf: The would be discerning(?)
[00:21] Furloaf: oops
[00:21] Trip: hehe
[00:21] Trip: indeed
[00:21] Trip: unlike you guys
[00:24] Furloaf: This Pike's peak hill climb is crazy
[00:29] BigFree: http://home.comcast.net/~bigfree1/CGN_at_Agincourt.jpg
[00:31] Furloaf: Cool thanks
[00:32] Furloaf: Am I correct that that defender win % is actually lower because of the two muskets with defense of 4?
[00:33] Furloaf: Higher not lower
[00:35] Trip: yes
[00:35] Trip: correct
[00:35] Trip: sleep time is now, farewell
[00:35] »»» Quit: Trip : Quit:
[00:36] Furloaf: Thanks I'll post this info and log now for the others
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17-02-2004 04:13
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