17-03-2004 09:32									#301
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quote: Care to refute my explanation as to how it was not?

What explanation? You gave some BS spiel about how Iraq has nothing to do with Al Qaeda, which obviously isn't true since Al Qaeda targetted Spain because of its involvement in Iraq.

You did nothing to show how Al Qaeda's accomplishment of its (seemingly) stated goals in bombing Spain was not a victory. Simply calling things "absurd" or "inane" does not prove your point.

	17-03-2004 09:45									#302
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Which actions? He's not in power yet.

True enough, but I don't think al-Qaeda is too worried about the new Spanish govt getting in their way.

	17-03-2004 09:47									#303
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quote: What explanation? You gave some BS spiel about how Iraq has nothing to do with Al Qaeda, which obviously isn't true since Al Qaeda targetted Spain because of its involvement in Iraq.

That's semantic nonsense. The point remains that going after Iraq had absolutley nothing to do with fighting al-Qaeda. That al-Qaeda is now bombing countries occupying Iraq is incidental.

As for what al-Qaeda wanted from the bombing, it could be argued that it was meant to ensure a right-wing gov't in Spain. After all, look at the results from 9/11. Look at another ally in Iraq, Australia, which was affected by the Bali bombing.

quote: You did nothing to show how Al Qaeda's accomplishment of its (seemingly) stated goals in bombing Spain was not a victory. Simply calling things "absurd" or "inane" does not prove your point.

Spanish resources spent occupying Iraq would be directed at al-Qaeda. Probably even more than that. Pretty simple, really.

	17-03-2004 09:50									#304
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Here's a weird bit of news: France has been threatened with a terrorist attack, but by a group named after the deceased leader of the Chechen attack on a Moscow opera house. It doesn't make sense does it? Are we in for a year long halloween?

	17-03-2004 09:50									#305
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quote: True enough, but I don't think al-Qaeda is too worried about the new Spanish govt getting in their way.

I don't know why you say that. Zapatero has said he'd start to go ("tomorrow," forgot when he made the speech) around European countries getting them to committ more resources to fight al-Qaeda.

	17-03-2004 09:54									#306
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quote: That al-Qaeda is now bombing countries occupying Iraq is incidental.

Iraq and Al Qaeda may not have been linked before, but they are now. You better wake up to that fact.

quote: As for what al-Qaeda wanted from the bombing, it could be argued that it was meant to ensure a right-wing gov't in Spain.

Except that there's a CNN article (linked to twice in this very thread!) that seems to indicate that Al Qaeda intended to bring down Aznar's government with the bombing.

quote: Spanish resources spent occupying Iraq would be directed at al-Qaeda. Probably even more than that. Pretty simple, really.

This does nothing to deal with the point at hand. That point, simply put is...

1. Al Qaeda bombs Spain in an attempt to bring down Aznar's government and end Spanish support of the US in Iraq.

2. After the bombing, Aznar's government falls and the new Socialist government announces that it will end support for the US in Iraq.

How is this anything other than a clear-cut victory for Al Qaeda? Do you have a real explanation, or are you just going to keep avoiding the issue?

	17-03-2004 09:55									#307
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I don't know why you say that. Zapatero has said he'd start to go ("tomorrow," forgot when he made the speech) around European countries getting them to committ more resources to fight al-Qaeda.

The resources are not really my point. The message coming from Zapatero is "don't target us anymore and we won't go after you." They can use more resources to defend their homeland and still send that message.

	17-03-2004 10:05									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten 2. After the bombing, Aznar's government falls and the new Socialist government announces that it will end support for the US in Iraq.

Aznar was out no matter what. The new PP leader was expected to reduce Spain's role in Iraq anyway. However, it was not AQ that brought down the PP government, but the PP government's lying and ineptness that brought down the PP government.

Stop trying to hand AQ a victory. People like you are helping the terrorists win.

	17-03-2004 10:07									#309
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quote: Aznar was out no matter what.

That's not what the pre-election polls indicate.

	17-03-2004 10:08									#310
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quote: Iraq and Al Qaeda may not have been linked before, but they are now. You better wake up to that fact.

at ya too.

That has nothing to do with the point I was making.

quote: Except that there's a CNN article (linked to twice in this very thread!) that seems to indicate that Al Qaeda intended to bring down Aznar's government with the bombing.

Fair enough.

quote: This does nothing to deal with the point at hand.

It has everything to do with the point at hand. Al-Qaeda will face far more pressure on the part of Spain, and to a lesser extent other areas of Europe.

That al-Qaeda may have gotten what it wanted in terms of Spain's actions in Iraq doesn't make it a victory. We've withdrawn from Saudi Arabia since 9/11 (which was al-Qaeda's strongest objection to our policies), that doesn't make it a victory for al-Qaeda.

quote: The resources are not really my point. The message coming from Zapatero is "don't target us anymore and we won't go after you." They can use more resources to defend their homeland and still send that message.

That's not the message. The populace was by far on PSOE's side in terms of foreign policy (and the whole lying thing on the part of Aznar). The bombing just brought foreign policy to the forefront of the election, and economic issues to the backburner. Al-Qaeda gets screwed because of this, that ain't a victory.

	17-03-2004 10:08									#311
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Aznar was out no matter what. That's not what the pre-election polls indicate.

So? It's not what most of the exit polls indicated either.

	17-03-2004 10:08									#312
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Aznar was out no matter what. That's not what the pre-election polls indicate.

Aznar wasn't running for re-election. His successor was, and he was more moderate than Aznar.

Anyway, polls are norotiously inaccurate. Or do you think the Repugs stole Georgia from Max Clelend?

	17-03-2004 10:09									#313
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Aznar was out no matter what. The new PP leader was expected to reduce Spain's role in Iraq anyway. However, it was not AQ that brought down the PP government, but the PP government's lying and ineptness that brought down the PP government. Stop trying to hand AQ a victory. People like you are helping the terrorists win.

Are you saying that Aznar would have been out anyway before the bombing, or after the Spanish people found out that he lied? Aznar was the favorite before the bombing wasn't he?

	17-03-2004 10:11									#314
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quote: It has everything to do with the point at hand. Al-Qaeda will face far more pressure on the part of Spain, and to a lesser extent other areas of Europe.

How, exactly? It seems to me that Spain is just going to shore up its homeland security and hunker down, hoping Al Qaeda won't bother with them now that they aren't supporting America. Such a response does nothing to place more pressure on Al Qaeda and certainly doesn't have the potential to harm Al Qaeda that a democratic Iraq does.

	17-03-2004 10:13									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo That's not the message. The populace was by far on PSOE's side in terms of foreign policy (and the whole lying thing on the part of Aznar). The bombing just brought foreign policy to the forefront of the election, and economic issues to the backburner. Al-Qaeda gets screwed because of this, that ain't a victory.

You have just implicitly stated that al-qaeda caused the election results.

	17-03-2004 10:14									#316
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quote: Or do you think the Repugs stole Georgia from Max Clelend?

Is that the only rebuttal you lefties can come up with?

Sure, polls are wrong once in a blue moon, but the odds are that the Spanish polls were correct and the PP was on course to win the Spanish elections before the Al Qaeda bombing.

	17-03-2004 10:16									#317
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If Spain relocates its soldiers to Afghanistan, then terrorists cannot claim victory and everyone else's face is saved.

	17-03-2004 10:17									#318
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The terrorists can claim victory no matter what happens from this point on. It's too late to save face.

	17-03-2004 10:17									#319
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quote: them now that they aren't supporting America. Such a response does nothing to place more pressure on Al Qaeda and certainly doesn't have the potential to harm Al Qaeda that a democratic Iraq does.

Any reason why you say that Spain's just going to hunker down? From Zapatero's statement, it looks like he'll committ for more resources in terms of taking on al-Qaeda.

Al-Qaeda has goals far wider than attacking countries that support the US in Iraq. Turkey nor Indonesia were occupying Iraq.

As for a Democratic Iraq, this sort of thing will pressure Shrub into opening up the governance of Iraq more and/or not handling Iraq so ineptly, making a Democratic Iraq more probable.

	17-03-2004 10:18									#320
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What was the margin of error for the polls?

	17-03-2004 10:18									#321
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Sure, polls are wrong once in a blue moon, but the odds are that the Spanish polls were correct and the PP was on course to win the Spanish elections before the Al Qaeda bombing.

But you have to see that it was PP themselves who botched the handling of the all matter. A government should never lie to its people. Even if it now looked like a victory for terrorists, the blame should only be placed on the PP's politicians.

	17-03-2004 10:19									#322
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quote: You have just implicitly stated that al-qaeda caused the election results.

I'll give you the example I gave Drake: we've withdrawn from Saudi Arabia since 9/11, so does that mean it was a victory for al-Qaeda?

	17-03-2004 10:19									#323
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: God damn...no one reads CNN.com anymore Dude, I posted that article in another thread like two days ago...

Yep, and I reposted it, and Oliver either posted it or one very similar.

The problem is, it's inconvenient and getting in the way of their black=white newspeak, so they're doing their darndest to ignore it and hope it goes away.

	17-03-2004 10:21									#324
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quote: The problem is, it's inconvenient and getting in the way of their black=white newspeak, so they're doing their darndest to ignore it and hope it goes away.

Obviously.

	17-03-2004 10:26									#325
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I'll give you the example I gave Drake: we've withdrawn from Saudi Arabia since 9/11, so does that mean it was a victory for al-Qaeda?

Yes, but don't be quick to assign the loser.

	17-03-2004 10:28									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I'll give you the example I gave Drake: we've withdrawn from Saudi Arabia since 9/11, so does that mean it was a victory for al-Qaeda?

I certainly do not agree with the way the Bush has fought the war on terror, but at least he has not made the appearance of giving in to terrorism, which to me is the worst mistake you can make. It really doesn't matter that we aren't in SA, because al-Qaeda has not broken the political will of this country to bring them to justice.

	17-03-2004 10:32									#327
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quote: I certainly do not agree with the way the Bush has fought the war on terror, but at least he has not made the appearance of giving in to terrorism, which to me is the worst mistake you can make. It really doesn't matter that we aren't in SA, because al-Qaeda has not broken the political will of this country to bring them to justice.

Why do you believe that al-Qaeda has broken Spain's political will to bring them to justice?

quote: Yes, but don't be quick to assign the loser.

So you're saying that al-Qaeda "winning" can be a good thing too? Then why are you *****ing about this "terror has won" bs?

	17-03-2004 10:36									#328
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I made a long case some moths ago, stating the many reasons that, combined, made the attack on Iraq wishable for the admin. War on Terror was one of these elements, in that making Iraq a nice oil-producing poodle would allow to pressure Saudi Arabia (so, a very indirect relationship with terrorism, but an existing one nonetheless). Bottom line was however that Bush didn't tolerate the cracks in the "new world order", and decided to whack a harmless and loathable regime to impress all those who'd want to play smartass with him. In short, real reasons = power politics.

Saddam was not just "some" dictator. He was a man with a long history who had to go. Congress passed a resolution to that effect in 1998. Clinton did nothing about it. Bush did.

	17-03-2004 10:40									#329
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No, I'm saying Saudi is the loser for not getting their act together. It's a tactical victory for Al-Queda, because they acheive one of their stated goals, but it's bad for them strategically, because it allows us to work more directly against Al-Queda and Saudi.

	17-03-2004 10:41									#330
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We also waited a while after 9/11 to withdraw our troops from Saudi, so it's hard for Al Qaeda to claim victory in that case. We obviously pulled out our troops of our own accord, not in response to Al Qaeda attacks.