17-03-2004 10:42									#331
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quote: No, I'm saying Saudi is the loser for not getting their act together. It's a tactical victory for Al-Queda, because they acheive one of their stated goals, but it's bad for them strategically, because it allows us to work more directly against Al-Queda and Saudi.

And this was a strategic loss because it substantially increases Spain's in particular and Europe's in general resolve to destroy al-Qaeda.

	17-03-2004 10:45									#332
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quote: We also waited a while after 9/11 to withdraw our troops from Saudi, so it's hard for Al Qaeda to claim victory in that case. We obviously pulled out our troops of our own accord, not in response to Al Qaeda attacks.

This was a change of government that occured because foreign policy was brought to the forefront of the election. If the populace was for the war in Iraq, then a terror attack would increase their resolve to fight. Whining about about the terrorists winning is inane.

	17-03-2004 10:45									#333
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why do you believe that al-Qaeda has broken Spain's political will to bring them to justice?

You have to read between the lines. The PP was ahead in the polls. Then there was the bombing, and then the Socialist party won. That means that some voters changed their minds. Now it is likely that Zapatero will not do anything to risk having another terrorist attack happening to Spain. That means making the appearance of having Spain's tail between it's legs. As I said earlier, al-Qaeda is not exactly shaking in it's boots about Zapatero's little speech aimed at stopping them.

	17-03-2004 10:48									#334
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quote: We obviously pulled out our troops of our own accord, not in response to Al Qaeda attacks.

The Saudis wanted us to leave because Al Qaeda was hitting the Saudis because of our presence. We moved much of what we had to Bahrain and later into Iraq.

	17-03-2004 10:49									#335
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quote: This was a change of government that occured because foreign policy was brought to the forefront of the election.

... by a terrorist bombing. Al Qaeda blows up a few trains, changes the focus of the election and gets exactly what they wanted. ****ing brilliant, in a completely evil kinda way...

	17-03-2004 10:52									#336
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker The Saudis wanted us to leave because Al Qaeda was hitting the Saudis because of our presence. We moved much of what we had to Bahrain and later into Iraq.

Exactly, so it was the Saudi's who appeased the terrorists, not us.

	17-03-2004 10:54									#337
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo And this was a strategic loss because it substantially increases Spain's in particular and Europe's in general resolve to destroy al-Qaeda.

Because they say so?

	17-03-2004 10:55									#338
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Once again, for the umpteenth time in nearly two years:

- Saudi is a target, and has been since 9-11, but it cannot be moved against because they are "allies" and have their foot on the throat of the world oil supply.

- Iraq is the key loosening the grip on the Saudi oil supply, but it wasn't going to happen until Saddam either cooperated or was removed. He wasn't about to cooperate, so he was removed.

- Once Iraq was secure enough to produce oil, we could start backing away from our "alliance" with the Saudis. We have, in fact, been doing just that.

- Eventually, the Saudi regime will be rendered economically impotant, or it will be removed. Possibly both.

- The Saudis can change this outcome by forcefully dealing with their terrorist entanglements; there has been some progress made in this area, though it so far has not been sufficient to change the overall plan.

	17-03-2004 10:56									#339
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quote: You have to read between the lines. The PP was ahead in the polls. Then there was the bombing, and then the Socialist party won. That means that some voters changed their minds. Now it is likely that Zapatero will not do anything to risk having another terrorist attack happening to Spain. That means making the appearance of having Spain's tail between it's legs. As I said earlier, al-Qaeda is not exactly shaking in it's boots about Zapatero's little speak aimed at stopping them.

Al-Qaeda has far broader goals than Iraq. That ain't an option for the new Spanish gov't.

And people by and large didn't change minds, rather people who decided to sit-out on the election decided to turnout in massive numbers.

	17-03-2004 10:57									#340
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quote: Because they say so?

I don't see any other reason to say otherwise. And look at what 9/11 did to people in this country, the first reaction is revenge.

	17-03-2004 10:58									#341
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Americans and Europeans aren't the same...

	17-03-2004 11:01									#342
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Al-Qaeda has far broader goals than Iraq. That ain't an option for the new Spanish gov't.

If I were the new Spanish govt I would keep the Spanish troops in Iraq just to show al-Qaeda that they can not be successfull using terrorism to affect elections, even though I would agree with the Spanish not keeping the troops in Iraq had the bombing not happened right before the election. The election is the higher issue than the involvement in Iraq.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo And people by and large didn't change minds, rather people who decided to sit-out on the election decided to turnout in massive numbers.

That is changing minds.

	17-03-2004 11:03									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I don't see any other reason to say otherwise. And look at what 9/11 did to people in this country, the first reaction is revenge.

The rest of the world has the option to free ride. The US really doesn't.

	17-03-2004 11:06									#344
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quote: The rest of the world has the option to free ride. The US really doesn't.

Very true. Ramo seems to think that the Euros are going to go after Al Qaeda hard-core after this, but I think it's far more likely that they'll retreat and free ride while America does all the work.

	17-03-2004 11:10									#345
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quote: Americans and Europeans aren't the same...

Maybe, but I don't see a good reason to say that there's a difference in this respect.

quote: If I were the new Spanish govt I would keep the Spanish troops in Iraq just to show al-Qaeda that they can not be successfull using terrorism to affect elections, even though I would agree with the Spanish not keeping the troops in Iraq had the bombing not happened right before the election. The election is the higher issue than the involvement in Iraq.

I don't think that this sort of posturing would have much of an effect. I personally support the occupation, just think that it's being badly mismanaged, and so think that Spanish troops ought to be used as leverage to get us to act more responsibly.

quote: Very true. Ramo seems to think that the Euros are going to go after Al Qaeda hard-core after this, but I think it's far more likely that they'll retreat and free ride while America does all the work.

The Euros have been extremely involved in fighting al-Qaeda already. And that's only because of 9/11. I think the response will be much bigger after attacks on European soil.

	17-03-2004 11:13									#346
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quote: The rest of the world has the option to free ride. The US really doesn't.

I strongly disagree. The Euros are geographically much closer to states involved in Islamic terrorism and have much higher immigration from Islamic states. I think they have just as much of a reason, if not more so, to fight it than us.

	17-03-2004 11:14									#347
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I sincerely hope so.

In the meantime, the apparent victory has done nothing to damage Al-Queda's morale or recruiting.

	17-03-2004 11:17									#348
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk In the meantime, the apparent victory has done nothing to damage Al-Queda's morale or recruiting.

And a PP victory would've had terrorists turning themselves in en masse?

Come on, guys... Get real.

	17-03-2004 11:20									#349
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Of course not. Maintaining of the status quo is what is expected -- Al-Queda itself thought it would take up to three such attacks to drive the message home, and it took only one.

	17-03-2004 11:32									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I strongly disagree. The Euros are geographically much closer to states involved in Islamic terrorism and have much higher immigration from Islamic states. I think they have just as much of a reason, if not more so, to fight it than us.

What seems to you a reason for them to fight, seems to me a reason not to fight. Come on Ramo, free riding comes natural for the smaller nations.

	17-03-2004 11:32									#351
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They can't afford to, it's their backyard.

	17-03-2004 11:37									#352
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo They can't afford to, it's their backyard.

Spain's contribution to the war on terror would be small in comparison anyway. The rational thing for them to do is free ride; let the US make themselves a target. It's the safest thing for them to do.

	17-03-2004 11:37									#353
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I could make a really tasteless troll about how the American people have given into Al Qaeda with the various invasions, the insults against allies, and the curtailing of their own freedoms....
But I won't

	17-03-2004 11:41									#354
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quote: Spain's contribution to the war on terror would be small in comparison anyway. The rational thing for them to do is free ride; let the US make themselves a target. It's the safest thing for them to do.

We don't have the capability or will to comprehensively police places like Spain for terror. They can't free-ride. And policing for terror means policing outside of one's borders to at least some extent.

	17-03-2004 11:47									#355
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo We don't have the capability or will to comprehensively police places like Spain for terror. They can't free-ride. And policing for terror means policing outside of one's borders to at least some extent.

I'm not saying that they won't police their own borders. I'm saying they won't risk making the appearance that they are going after al-Qaeda outside of their own borders.

	17-03-2004 11:49									#356
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As I said, you'd have to police outside of your borders to some extent if you're going to effectively curtail terror.

	17-03-2004 11:52									#357
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo As I said, you'd have to police outside of your borders to some extent if you're going to effectively curtail terror.

I agree. Spain was one of those nations who was willing to do that, and now they aren't.

	17-03-2004 12:02									#358
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It's not Iraq or nothing.

	17-03-2004 12:08									#359
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Kid: Again, have you considered that the Spanish people could have felt betrayed and scared?
Theyre government told them that the war would make them safe. They defied the will of the people (I mean, 51% is one thing but 90% is a tad excessive).
Then they get attacked in their worst terrorist attack in history. Right before an election, and their government tries to pin it on the ETA despite growing evidence.

I think Americans are being stupid and hateful yet again. The Spanish people have finally gotten a government that will bring back troops which they have wanted since the beginning and because that deviates from the US, suddenly the Spanish people have appeazed the terrorists (or if you ask some Americans, are terrorist supporters themselves).
It's outrageous. I always thought of the American people as really really stupid, yes, but I didn't quite see them as hateful as I'm seeing them act now.

	17-03-2004 12:14									#360
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Here is an American's take:

1) Spain can do whatever they want with their own troops and they can withdraw them at any time

2) Spainards votes Aznar out of office not because of the terrorists, but because Aznar tried to blame ETA. I really don't know why he did that, if it was just a knee jerk reaction, or it really was a calculated attempt, even knowing that it probably wasn't ETA who did it.

3) If Al Queda attacks the US before the elections, it will have the opposite affect, as Americans will vote for Bush just to spite them