17-03-2004 12:29									#361
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Except that there's a CNN article (linked to twice in this very thread!) that seems to indicate that Al Qaeda intended to bring down Aznar's government with the bombing.

Yes, and the source of the article is a goddam internet forum post.

	17-03-2004 12:34									#362
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten ... by a terrorist bombing. Al Qaeda blows up a few trains, changes the focus of the election and gets exactly what they wanted. ****ing brilliant, in a completely evil kinda way...

Fair enough, they got Spain to withdraw from Iraq. How is that a victory, if the involvement in Iraq did nothing good in the fight against terrorism?

	17-03-2004 12:40									#363
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OMG OMG OMG
I just saw, uh, a post from Al Qaeda on arab forums! Heres a translation!

quote: Sacred Brothers, It is time for karmic retribution to destroy the American infidels! I have informed our ally, Drake Tungsten of http://www.apolyton.net who currently resides in Japan, of our plan. Once he posts, our divine allies in heathen America will support him. They shall fear our power!!! Sincerly, Osama Bin Laden Al Qaeda PS: This is *VERY* true. Seriously.

You neocons are supporting TERRORISM!

	17-03-2004 12:41									#364
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Well Boris, that really goes back to the basic axiom of terrorism

They know they can't beat any Western force on the ground. So they hope that the Western forces get to scared to stay there.

It could be seen as that Spain got scared for the safety of its forces or its own citizens and decided to withdraw them so that it wouldn't make itself a target.

Really though we need to solve the Palestinian problem. If that was fixed this would all end. Even the damn Arabs couldn't complain.

But there are so many jackasses who keep causing trouble trying to delay the peace process.

	17-03-2004 12:46									#365
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker They know they can't beat any Western force on the ground. So they hope that the Western forces get to scared to stay there.

Don't forget the PSOE was against going to Iraq in the first place. They are merely being consistent with themselves.

quote: It could be seen as that Spain got scared for the safety of its forces or its own citizens and decided to withdraw them so that it wouldn't make itself a target.

Not really. They knew the risks and assumed them. I'm pretty sure they can still be a target and will be again.

quote: Really though we need to solve the Palestinian problem. If that was fixed this would all end. Even the damn Arabs couldn't complain.

Yup.

quote: But there are so many jackasses who keep causing trouble trying to delay the peace process.

Both in Israel and in Palestine, shall I add.

	17-03-2004 12:53									#366
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European leaders meet this Friday to discuss what to do about terrorism. I am willing to bet that they will agree that nation building in both Afghanistan and Iraq are critically important in the war on terror. I suspect they will offer that NATO take over the military mission in Iraq after June 30. Just a prediction.

	17-03-2004 12:55									#367
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Don't forget the PSOE was against going to Iraq in the first place. They are merely being consistent with themselves.

I agree. But still from the outside there could be a perception. Al Queda knows there isn't much support in Spain for its forces to be there. So they went after the "weakest" link first. Maybe they are hoping others will see what happened and they will withdraw also.

quote: Both in Israel and in Palestine, shall I add.

True.

	17-03-2004 12:57									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Ned European leaders meet this Friday to discuss what to do about terrorism. I am willing to bet that they will agree that nation building in both Afghanistan and Iraq are critically important in the war on terror. I suspect they will offer that NATO take over the military mission in Iraq after June 30. Just a prediction.

Old Eurocom dumbasses Chirac and Shroeder actually made some brilliant statements today.

quote: PARIS, France (CNN) -- The leaders of France and Germany have pledged to step up the fight against terrorism and coordinate with other nations to protect citizens and institutions.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europ...n.eu/index.html

	17-03-2004 15:07									#369
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Words do not speak actions.

I thought the Spanish learned that with the last Socialist Prime Minister, Felipe Gonzalez. Big talker, big bullshiter.

	17-03-2004 15:25									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I thought the Spanish learned that with the last Socialist Prime Minister, Felipe Gonzalez. Big talker, big bullshiter.

Are we talking about the guy who backed anti-ETA death squads?

	17-03-2004 16:05									#371
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: The idea that al-Qaeda claims victory in Spain is completely abusurd. Repeating that doesn't make it anymore true. Al Qaeda won a great victory in Spain, whether you wan't to admit it or not.

quote: Repeating that doesn't make it anymore true.

	17-03-2004 16:44									#372
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So, after reading through 7 pages of this thread, I HAD to ask...

Where's the link to the terrorists claiming victory?

Spanish troops, right now, are in Iraq. And they will stay there until at least June. They could stay there for far longer if the UN wants to get involved in sorting the political dimension (and of course, the Bushies will permit such "meddling" in their conquest).

Those who love democracy cannot criticise the Spanish people's decision.

Those who think Spain will do nothing do not know the Spanish.

Iraq is but one one front on a global battlefield.

	17-03-2004 17:52									#373
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I see there are some fundamental errors in the diagnosis of the Spanish situation, as well as the recent and unfortunate events...

part of the people did not vote to the PSOE......
...because PSOE will agree with Al Qaeda ( that's offensive )
... because PSOE will protect to us better (impossible)
... because PSOE will remove the troops (this possition is affirmed before attack)

although the high participation was consequence of the terrorist
attack

the peoples rejected Popular Party because of the informative management of the attack: 2 examples of the international manipulation:
- pressure from the government to the correspondents of foreign press to blame to ETA
- pressure of the diplomacy in the UN to blame to ETA

you can imagine the internal manipulation

"in 3 days 8 years burst"

excuse my poor english



PS: I am sure the advisers of Bush will have analyzed it, and will modify part of their electoral strategy about 11-S

	17-03-2004 19:03									#374
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quote: Really though we need to solve the Palestinian problem. If that was fixed this would all end. Even the damn Arabs couldn't complain.

Ending the Palestinian-Israeli conflict would be great and would certainly calm down the region, but it won't end terrorism, not by a long shot. Groups like Al Qaeda don't really give a **** about the Pals; they just use the issue cynically as a way to attract recruits and support for their more broad goals.

	17-03-2004 19:42									#375
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Kidicious: Please vote for Bush. I can only chuckle to see you and some of the conservatives agreeing election time-it will make them feel so icky...

I will do an TMM and repeat for the nth time:

80-90% of the people in Spain did not back the war in Iraq-. IF the PP was going to win, it was going to be due to it's internal policies, NOT its external policies. The Madrid bombing showed its external policies to be, if not a failure, unable to keep Spain safe. Fez said there was nothing any government could have done to stop that bombing-if that is true, what the hell did the PP do for 2 plus years as part on this war on terror? And how would a continuation of the highly unpopular participation of Spain in Iraq without a UN mandate make Spain and spaniards any safer against AQ?

People ask why the government would go whole hog to blame ETA-well, if we were to bring out the threads form that day of the attack-I could point to where I said I found the gov. blaming ETA strange becuase this had the AQ MO. During that discussion, I brought this up, and in one exchange OliverFA, who was blaming, like the government, ETA stated that if it came out it had been AQ there was a possibility the people would vote against the government. All that the day of the attack.

I do not buy the explination that Spanish anger at the PP was due solely to the foolish government handling of events-this outcome as a possibility could be seen. But I find the arguement this is a victory for the terrorist absurd-and one used simply as a proxy for the Iraq debate.

On the notion this will lead to more attacks-why the F*** does anyone here think Terrorists do attack? by this logic, after 9/11 AQ should have figured out attacks would all backfire-somehow they have failed to get the clue, no? Terrorist can always look back to Reagan running from Lebanon after a few massive bombings to see the power of attacks.

	17-03-2004 20:21									#376
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Time to dive back in

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy So, after reading through 7 pages of this thread, I HAD to ask... Where's the link to the terrorists claiming victory?

Did anyone say they did? What a number of people have said is that there may be the perception of victory especially if AQ were in fact aiming to influence the election.

An interesting counterpoint to that idea is that so far as I can tell the arab websites have not commented on the bombing. They've reported it, but not focussed on it.

quote: Those who love democracy cannot criticise the Spanish people's decision.

Why not? I'm glad that the spanish people were not afraid to go out and vote, but I dont support their choice.

quote: Those who think Spain will do nothing do not know the Spanish.

This is an interesting comment to me. I remember a Brit exchange officer saying the same thing about Baroness Thatcher during the Falklands when the many military pundits said Britain could only blockade the islands.

What is it you expect the spanish to do?

quote: Iraq is but one one front on a global battlefield.

No argument from me.

	17-03-2004 20:39									#377
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Kidicious: Please vote for Bush. I can only chuckle to see you and some of the conservatives agreeing election time-it will make them feel so icky...

You're going to be chuckling if there is a terrorist attack in the US right before the election, or are you not reading my posts carefully.

quote: Originally posted by GePap 80-90% of the people in Spain did not back the war in Iraq-. IF the PP was going to win, it was going to be due to it's internal policies, NOT its external policies. The Madrid bombing showed its external policies to be, if not a failure, unable to keep Spain safe. Fez said there was nothing any government could have done to stop that bombing-if that is true, what the hell did the PP do for 2 plus years as part on this war on terror? And how would a continuation of the highly unpopular participation of Spain in Iraq without a UN mandate make Spain and spaniards any safer against AQ?

Of course they will be safer with the new non-confrontational govt. They will also have allowed foreign influence into their govt.

	17-03-2004 20:47									#378
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You're going to be chuckling if there is a terrorist attack in the US right before the election, or are you not reading my posts carefully.

As carefully as they always deserve to be.

quote: Of course they will be safer with the new non-confrontational govt. They will also have allowed foreign influence into their govt.

1. since you don;t know the future, your statement is nonsense.

2. Last time I checked, your point is that YOU would allow foreing influence into your government? Pot, kettle, black?

	17-03-2004 20:56									#379
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quote: Originally posted by GePap As carefully as they always deserve to be.

What does deserving have to do with it? You're the one who ends up looking stupid.

quote: Originally posted by GePap 1. since you don;t know the future, your statement is nonsense.

Didn't we agree that they would be safer?

quote: Originally posted by GePap 2. Last time I checked, your point is that YOU would allow foreing influence into your government? Pot, kettle, black?

Where did I say that? I said that I would vote for the politician that the terrorists didn't want.

	17-03-2004 20:57									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Didn't we agree that they would be safer?

No

quote: Where did I say that? I said that I would vote for the politician that the terrorists didn't want.

Hence you would be voting based on foreign influence. Really, do you NOT see that!!?

	17-03-2004 21:00									#381
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Where did I say that? I said that I would vote for the politician that the terrorists didn't want.

You are saying that terrorist are changing your vote from one that you want to make sans terrorist, to one that they don't want (which is not your first choice). So you have been influenced in your governmental choice by terrorists.

	17-03-2004 21:05									#382
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No

quote: Originally posted by GePap And how would a continuation of the highly unpopular participation of Spain in Iraq without a UN mandate make Spain and spaniards any safer against AQ?

quote: Originally posted by GePap Hence you would be voting based on foreign influence. Really, do you NOT see that!!?

Do you NOT see the difference between voting for candidate that the terrorists want because you are scared, and voting for the candidate that they don't want because you don't want them to try that crap again.

	17-03-2004 21:06									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Do you NOT see the difference between voting for candidate that the terrorists want because you are scared, and voting for the candidate that they don't want because you don't want them to try that crap again.

Ever thought of having more than terrorism define your ballot choice.

	17-03-2004 21:09									#384
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quote: quote: quote: Originally posted by GePap And how would a continuation of the highly unpopular participation of Spain in Iraq without a UN mandate make Spain and spaniards any safer against AQ?

You view that as having agreed they would be safer with the new gov.? OMG!! I am sorry, that blows my mind.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Do you NOT see the difference between voting for candidate that the terrorists want because you are scared, and voting for the candidate that they don't want because you don't want them to try that crap again.

No. You would be voting again out of fear and anger- Heck! This guy will go after them and they won't try it again! As opposed to this guy will get out of their way, and they won;t try it again!

Yes, kid, massive difference..in the Nedaverse perhaps.

	17-03-2004 21:09									#385
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I would really love it if we could make the issue of how to deal with AQ and other terrorists become a non-politicised, non-partisan issue. If the policies were agreed and commited to across parties then there would be no problem.

	17-03-2004 21:10									#386
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Fat chance, BC. Everything is political.

It sucks, I agree, but that's how it is.

-Arrian

	17-03-2004 21:12									#387
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I would really love it if we could make the issue of how to deal with AQ and other terrorists become a non-politicised, non-partisan issue. If the policies were agreed and commited to then there would be no problem.

Man is a political animal. Terrorism is a form of political violence. How could this discussion NOT be political?

	17-03-2004 21:13									#388
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Ever thought of having more than terrorism define your ballot choice.

That's just not going to happen when there is a terrorist attack right before the election.

	17-03-2004 21:14									#389
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Fat chance, BC. Everything is political. It sucks, I agree, but that's how it is. -Arrian

Treatment of terrorism in the UK has been largely succesful in this regard. The Northern Ireland issue has not been politicised to any great degree (in Whitehall politics), and the Labour and Tories are not in major disagreement over terrorism handling.

Maybe its just the quirkiness of the British.

	17-03-2004 21:16									#390
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Treatment of terrorism in the UK has been largely succesful in this regard. The Northern Ireland issue has not been politicised to any great degree (in Whitehall politics), and the Labour and Tories are not in major disagreement over terrorism handling. Maybe its just the quirkiness of the British.

Political agreement is not proof of lack of politicising.