21-04-2004 10:06									#211
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My only problem with the vanilla screens is that i cant see the effect on production speed when im changing specialists in City Manager, without closing the City Manager first, so anything that fixes that would be good. When you change the Empire Manager you can see the advance count going up or down, so why cant you see the production for a city updated as you change specialists?

Anyway if there HAS to be a whole new design, id like to see a "NEXT POP IN [ ] TURNS".

	21-04-2004 13:00									#212
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quote: Anyway if there HAS to be a whole new design, id like to see a "NEXT POP IN [ ] TURNS".

It may be possible to do this (also) on the main screen by adding a little box under the city's pop. You'd have to have "Show city names" in your profile enabled to see it.

One point I'd like to raise is about the max army size. I think we could raise it providing we allow enough buttons for each of the possible units in the army. What do people think?

	21-04-2004 13:08									#213
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Locutus, the design is looking good, but I don't like that you have to scroll through the build list:

For me the build list shall have all entries visible. That is one of the biggest annoyances for me.

And as Maq mentioned:

quote: My only problem with the vanilla screens is that i cant see the effect on production speed when im changing specialists in City Manager, without closing the City Manager first, so anything that fixes that would be good. When you change the Empire Manager you can see the advance count going up or down, so why cant you see the production for a city updated as you change specialists?

	21-04-2004 13:09									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx The problem I have with this setup (which is based on The second layout by Locutus) is that the information on the left is so chopped-up and all over the place that it is impossible to use and this information is why I use the city screen!

I agree that it's not in the best possible arrangement, but I think if it's switched around some it will be no worse than the existing system. It might be a little harder to take in at a glance, but I think it's only a matter of getting used to it.

quote: Originally posted by OnePresent As I put this together another option came to mind that may be a better use of the tabs. Instead of having tabs for status and build, have tabs for build and map view. When is the map view least needed??? Maybe when using the build interface??

I don't think so... I think users are just as likely to want to see their city when choosing what to build (Does it need defence because it's near the enemy, does it need to build settlers because there's an area empty of cities nearby, etc.)

Here's a more ambitiious proposal: How about having two sections of the screen (basically where you have the map view and where you have the tabbed section in your last proposal) each of which can be chosen to be either build view, status view or see-through-to-map view.

	21-04-2004 13:53									#215
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quote: It may be possible to do this (also) on the main screen by adding a little box under the city's pop. You'd have to have "Show city names" in your profile enabled to see it.

This is interesting. Can we have other things like currently building item and time to completion next to it, under the city name on the map too?

	21-04-2004 15:19									#216
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How about Time to next pop and a button to stagnate the pop growth.

	21-04-2004 15:52									#217
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quote: Originally posted by OnePresent As I put this together another option came to mind that may be a better use of the tabs. Instead of having tabs for status and build, have tabs for build and map view. When is the map view least needed??? Maybe when using the build interface??

True!

Though J Bytheway is not wrong neither...

I prefer the city screen you posted page 18, it seems to hold all the needed informations. I guess the problem is that it can't be displayed in 800x600...

	21-04-2004 15:57									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I prefer the city screen you posted page 18, it seems to hold all the needed informations. I guess the problem is that it can't be displayed in 800x600...

Page 18 ?????????????????????

	21-04-2004 16:41									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch Locutus, the design is looking good, but I don't like that you have to scroll through the build list:

For me the biggest problem is I don't like to have to click tabs to see info. And on 800x600 it's gonna be one or the other, we can't have both, at least not when we also have a map view.

But either solution is really unsatisfactory for bigger resolutions: it's silly that a window only takes up 25% of the screen but you still can't see everything you want.

I was thinking we might simply have to develop 2 versions of the city screen: one for small resolutions (800x600) and one for big ones (I think it should be possible to fit everything comfortably on 1024x768 without having to rely either on tabs or scrolling).

But a solution similar to John's proposal might work better: have different panels that can be opened or closed as desired: on 800x600 having all windows open would then block most of the map view, but on bigger resolutions you would still have a decent amount of space left for the main map. This method is already used for the various Advisors in the game, it shouldn't be too hard to copy it for other parts of the UI.

	21-04-2004 16:58									#220
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Actually were you mentioned the advisor:

I haven't seen any suggestion for this. Not that, me thinks, anyone of us hardly ever uses it (although I leave the trade one enabled to the see the most profitable one at once).

But the designs till now, would get rid of him, or?

	21-04-2004 17:15									#221
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sack him

no council like civ 2. The military advisor was always complaining about lack of troops even when I conquered 99% of the world.

	21-04-2004 17:27									#222
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Here's a more ambitiious proposal: How about having two sections of the screen (basically where you have the map view and where you have the tabbed section in your last proposal) each of which can be chosen to be either build view, status view or see-through-to-map view.

Interesting. I like this idea better than the two sketches I put up. As with all of these designs these items are really crammed into a small space. It may be almost impossible to get every needed detail in place and have it logical, usable, and decent enough to look at. (Yes the left area of this screen needs much work.)

Here's yet another concept. First some dramatic background music.

Let's use all the space on the 800 x 600 screen for all functions EXCEPT the map. On the title bar of the window we put on the left side, the eyeball which centers the map underneath. Just to the right of this (programmers, are you sitting down?) a "windowshade" button. With this button the whole window is collapsed into the title bar to reveal the centered map underneath. Another click on the windowshade button brings the dialog box back in view. Not perfect, but maybe the cleanest solution yet, an all-numbers-in-one city screen, alternating with the best map view yet--full screen. And if you are using high resolution you can have the city screen and background map visiable at the same time.

	21-04-2004 18:46									#223
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How about this? (See attachments)

You can click on the buttons in the top and bottom of the screen (as well as 'List' in the Current Queue button section for the Buildable Items list) to display/hide various sections of the UI.

This works on all resolutions: on 800x600 most of the map would be invisible if everything is open and you'll have to select which sections you want to see, while on bigger resolutions you could have everything open and still have a decent amount of space to view the world map.

Note that everything but the city name/mayor/eyepointer (which I forgot to add but should be easy enough to fit in) section can be hidden, since I can't imagine anyone would want to hide that section. Of course, it should be easy enough to add a hide button for that section as well, if deemed necessary.



Example 1

Attachment: cityscreen5.jpg
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	21-04-2004 18:48									#224
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Example 2

Attachment: cityscreen6.jpg
This has been downloaded 43 time(s).

	21-04-2004 18:59									#225
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Looks a bit messy, my first impression. But I will give it more thoughts.

	21-04-2004 19:01									#226
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Good idea Locutus, especially if it would remember the buttons you had clicked the last time. My main desire about the city management screen stays the same - no need to press any extra buttons to build anything - if possible, I want to open the city view, and immediately see my build queue.

	21-04-2004 19:08									#227
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Its definately getting there. One thing im worried about with this is squeezing everything in wouldnt leave space for any new things that might be needed, like trade overview in a city, maybe. You can add another few buttons down the bottom there, i suppose, but it would obviously overlap something, with all menus open.

	21-04-2004 19:14									#228
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I just realized it might be useful to keep the GL info on the last clicked/currently constructed always open as well, so the most essential info on your city would still be visible even if you've hidden all panels.

Here's what a minimal display would look like (eyepointer to centre on city now also added).

Attachment: cityscreen7.jpg
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	21-04-2004 19:19									#229
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My concern with this locutus is we have as many buttons to press here as with the current game, no advantage gained on that front. Also the map viewing area is an awkward shape.

I still like my windowshade idea best, but of course I'd like my ideas best. Clean, simple, everything at your fingertips, and just one button for city view.

I'm about ready to give up here. Too much info, too small a space. Maybe 2 city screens versions is best. High res (1280+) and low res (800 and 1024).

	21-04-2004 19:28									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Good idea Locutus, especially if it would remember the buttons you had clicked the last time.

Indeed, there should probably be several functions to manage the panels: it would be nice if users could define a few standard views that could be toggled between with a single mouse click and/or key combo, and it would be good to have an option to either use a default view or restore the last used settings when opening the city screen. I'm guessing different people would have different preferences here, so it would be good to cater both.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora One thing im worried about with this is squeezing everything in wouldnt leave space for any new things that might be needed, like trade overview in a city, maybe. You can add another few buttons down the bottom there, i suppose, but it would obviously overlap something, with all menus open.

I'm very much aware of that and I think it will work fine like this. I already designed my latest version with this in mind: most existing panels have some room to expand with more info and there's still some room for new panels, though not too much. The last is inevitable: there's only so much you stuff can squeeze in on a 800x600 screen -- if you continue to add more stuff, eventually you'll have to resort to tabbing anyway, in which case the current setup still works nicely. Optimizing the design to reduce overlap as much as possible is a brigde we can only cross once we get there...

	21-04-2004 19:38									#231
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I think at the end, we will just have to playtest it and decide then further. Screen shots are nice, but you always have to feel it before you can decide..

	21-04-2004 19:56									#232
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quote: Originally posted by OnePresent My concern with this locutus is we have as many buttons to press here as with the current game, no advantage gained on that front. Also the map viewing area is an awkward shape.

The management functions I mentioned in my last post will prevent problems there. Usually one would only interested in 1 or 2 different views (though different people will have different preferences about what exactly should be in those views), so if one could quickly switch between those there's really no problem.

The shape of the main map view area is only awkward on 800x600, which is really too small to display so much information AND a world map anyway. If you're stuck on that resolution, you'll just have to make some choices on what you want to see and what you want to miss. On larger resolutions there isn't much of an issue, see below for how my latest design works out on 1600x1200 with everything opened.

It actually leaves so much space in the middle it might actually be wise to move some things (e.g. Resources and Units panels to the bottom left, City Name panel to the upper right).

	21-04-2004 20:12									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch I think at the end, we will just have to playtest it and decide then further. Screen shots are nice, but you always have to feel it before you can decide..

It will probably take a conderable amount of time to code even one version of the UI, let alone several (especially if they're very different in setup; e.g. panels vs tabs vs windowshade). We really want to nail down the basic concept as much as possible (if at all) before we start implementing. Details like the exact location and look of various elements can be changed after testing quite easily, but a complete redesign would take a lot of time that could be much better spent.

	21-04-2004 20:44									#234
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Then wouldnt it just be better to develop the big ideas (strategic resources, new trade system etc) into the game first, before making a new (slightly inflexible) UI?

	21-04-2004 20:49									#235
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I think that I generally like this latest idea, but (as you say) it might be nice if things changed a bit on higer resolutions so that the screen wasn't quite so spread about.

	21-04-2004 20:55									#236
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Yeah, the latest idea seems quite fine. What do you people think are the less needed pieces of info, that could be hidden from 800x600 unless toggled by a tab?

	21-04-2004 20:59									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Yeah, the latest idea seems quite fine. What do you people think are the less needed pieces of info, that could be hidden from 800x600 unless toggled by a tab?

I think of those sections I would generally hide pollution, happiness and inventory.

	21-04-2004 21:13									#238
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Good suggestion - a detailed breakup of their happiness reasons isn't that important at all times...

	21-04-2004 21:19									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus The management functions I mentioned in my last post will prevent problems there. Usually one would only interested in 1 or 2 different views (though different people will have different preferences about what exactly should be in those views), so if one could quickly switch between those there's really no problem.

OK, a management function would take care of some of those concerns.

I really think you are doing good concept work here, and I know this stuff takes time. It invites new ideas which is good. But it unfortunately also invites critisism.

I dream of a clean, usuable, logical, nice looking interface. With the city screen functions scattered to the 4 corners of the screen I think that falls short on all accounts. If you have a large resolution screen why not group all these functions into 1 corner. Then everything is at your fingertips. No moving the mouse (and eye) from one corner to the next. How about one complete panel comes up from say the bottom left corner, and it centers the city on the map in the background as it opens.

	21-04-2004 21:24									#240
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quote: If only just one idea....