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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:36
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One would hope that it would be clear, given the concepts of responsibility and crime that one crime can never excuse another crime-nothing the US ever did can excuse this murder, just as nothing anyone else did can excuse prisoner abuse by US servicepeople. One would hope sucha simple outocme of those terms would be self-evident. This thread shows it is self evident that it is not.
As for outrage. I have no canned outrage for this, nor have I really had much canned outrage for the prisoner scandal- the scandal comes from a pattern in our current leadership and that permeates down the line, even if not ordered down the line.
As for this murder-the men who committed it are criminals, nothing else. BUt I can't really get more worked up over the killing of one man, even if American, than the murders of dozens. I doubt those Iraqis killed by these guys car bombs suffered much less, depending on how the bombs killed them. These guys have already killed hundreds-I can't get worked up over 1 more. Even if he were an American: Maybe I missed it coming into being, butif a thread was made on the assasination of the Chechen president I missed it. 20 people were killed. Why were their deaths less outrageous, or at least less worthy of long discussion?
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PLATO
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Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
it is an outrageous crime, committed by barbarians bare of the slightest sign of humanity. Hunt them down by all means, find them, try them and hang them on their own bowel. I will stand and applaud, even though I am normally against the death penalty.
But it's just that, a crime. Nothing less, but also nothing more. |
I would really like to believe this, but it is getting harder and harder. Looking at the facts that continue to emerge from that society it appears that oppression and violence are very ingrained.
I had hoped that the opportunity of setting up the first real democratic government in the ME might help, but the reaction of the radicals to the possibility of freedom is dimming this hope.
With the stated goals of the wahhabist to eithier convert us or kill us, it appears that the only viable alternative to long term violence is a period of intense warfare.
To all those that say that a peaceful solution must be found, I submit to you that both sides must want peace. I am convinced that the radical elements that are dominating ME society wouldn't play.
quote:
Sikander and Plato are normally reasonable guys. I expect them to stop thinking this once they are over the shock. |
Thanks for that Spiffor. The problem is that it is becoming "getting over" one shock after another. At some point something must be done to stop the cycle. Peace would be great, but I no longer believe that is possible with the terrorist. I don't think they want peace. This leaves only one alternative...they must be destroyed.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO
I would really like to believe this, but it is getting harder and harder. Looking at the facts that continue to emerge from that society it appears that oppression and violence are very ingrained. |
Nevertheless it is crime, just like 9/11 is. An extremely cruel and ruthless one, but still not more than a crime. It needs to be persecuted and those responsible need to be punished appropriately. Who calls for genocide in retaliation, is not the slightest bit better than those who committed this atrocity.
quote:
I had hoped that the opportunity of setting up the first real democratic government in the ME might help, but the reaction of the radicals to the possibility of freedom is dimming this hope. |
As much as I would appreciate a democracy in the mideast, I doubt it is going to happen. These people dont want a democracy, they aren't ready for it and if you try to impose it on them, you will fail.
quote:
With the stated goals of the wahhabist to eithier convert us or kill us, it appears that the only viable alternative to long term violence is a period of intense warfare. |
Which would mean "the only viable alternative to long term violence is long term violence".
quote:
To all those that say that a peaceful solution must be found, I submit to you that both sides must want peace. I am convinced that the radical elements that are dominating ME society wouldn't play. |
Who exactly is "both sides", especially if we call about the Arab side? I'm very sure the Arab people want peace no less than we do. It's terrorist scum like AQ who doesn't want it. You would do them (the people) and yourself a favor if you would stop adventures a la Iraq and do more in the fight against terror itself. The Iraq war has little contributed to it. In fact, it was rather counterproductive.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO
Thanks for that Spiffor. The problem is that it is becoming "getting over" one shock after another. |
Indeed, and I think that's part of their strategy. This murder was a communication stunt. It was aimed at two ways: to show an Arab youth wishing revenge that some groups do act, and to shock the west utterly.
AQ is one of these groups who understood how to be successful at communication: they'll continue trying to outrage you (and they'll continue to flatter the radical Arabs) with actions that are heavily broadcasted despite very small military consequences.
I mean, look at the war of images. With the torture item, and now the beheading item, it is clear the media doesn't always show the most significant news (I want to believe torture was on a small scale, and not systematic - I sure hope I won't be proven wrong  ). They show the most spectacular news.
Imagine the media broadcast a description of every cruel murder, every vicious pedophilia affair, every tragic prison break, every (common) filth that is performed by people who happen to be American, every day. You'll end up thinking there's a real problem with Americans, that they should be dealt with.
This is the treatment we give to the Arabs: whenever a person who happens to be Arabic does something barbarous, there's an immediate media attention. And AQ knows it. There's a reason they had this poor guy suffering so much as they killed him, and that's because they knew it would attract attention. That's because they knew the people on both sides would get their panties in a bunch. that's not a reason to believe all Arabs are like this.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
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It's hard to feel sorry for this Berg guy when you at what led to his death. At some point in his fatal adventure any half-way intelligent person is going to ask these questions:
You own a small company. Should you:
a) Look for new clients in your city;
b) Develop new clientale in other parts of your country;
c) Move to a war-torn country and try your luck there.
You're a Jewish-American businessman. A good place to drum up new overseas business is:
a) Europe;
b) East Asia;
c) A chaotic Islamic country.
You go to Iraq and fail to drum up new business. You naturally think:
a) The place is in chaos;
b) This place is a stinking hell hole;
b) Try, try again.
You're about the only person to be arrested by Iraqi police in the past year and your family has to sue the US government to get you out of jail. When you get released, you:
a) Grab the next plane out of there;
b) Take the next car out of there;
c) Stick around cause you're just about to land a contract.
People should think that Berg was:
a) An idealistic man of courage;
b) A misguided entreprenuer;
c) A prime candidate for the Darwin Awards
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12-05-2004 18:34
Seems he has it assbackwards though. 
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