27-06-2004 20:09									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie trouble is, if we move a CP north and do pop a monolith, then we have to wait another turn before founding a base. Maybe delay popping the pod (lest we get a rogue fungus bloom or summat)

Hmm, yeah, a monolith would indeed be a very likely outcome. A third possibility besides moving the CP and waiting a turn is first moving the rover on the pod before moving any CPs. But whatever we choose of our options is fine by me.

quote: and just move the CP's respectively north-east and south-west this turn, into the small valleys, and next turn found both bases - then pop the pod?

Moving a CP southeast would mean we'd build a base on a rolling&rainy instead of rolling&moist tile though. Is that ok?

	27-06-2004 20:32									#32
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Drogue:
Heh well I did say I only checked the first 9 squares.

	28-06-2004 06:35									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Moving a CP southeast would mean we'd build a base on a rolling&rainy instead of rolling&moist tile though. Is that ok?

Hmm - well we could move one CP straight south (looks like a rolling/moist) and the other on either diagonal NW or NE (again, both look to be rolling/moist)

That way we'd save both these rolling/rainy tiles to the southwest of our start position for nut development

The bases next turn would then be on each other's diagonals, 2 tiles away, which isn't too bad

(and pop the pod in 2103, after both bases are established, with a Command Center in the build column in case we pop a facs completion - if we don't, then we can always revert to a scout unit in each)

G.

	28-06-2004 06:51									#34
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I suggest planting Sparta Command right where it is, moving the rover up 1 to get the pod, and then probably to the west 1 tile to see if there is any good terrain there. As for the other colony pod, I would move it due south and plant it. That way, both bases will start out with rolling rainy tiles, we'll get the most tiles explored (from both the rover and the southern CP) and we'll have the 2nd CP planted quick.

As the pod is likely to be something good (as long as we pop it after we plant Sparta Command) then I suggest popping it as soon as possible so that we can start capitalizing on its benefits right away.

	28-06-2004 08:12									#35
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Interesting scenario testing developments.

I edited the 30-podpop one to start SC building a Command Center, saved it, then popped one of the 2 pods with the colony pod 30 times again.

Here are the results:

energy credits: 14 times (varying from 25 ec's to 75 ec's)
monolith: 6 times
completion of CC: 5 times
energy special: 2 times
mineral special: 1 time
AA: 1 time
Unity Rover: 1 time

So it appears that the algorithm the engine uses can be influenced by what is put in the build box (ie, if we have a scout fully built in the box, maybe the engine looks at its completion, "shakes it's head" and moves on to the next in the list - ec's or whatever

So I suggest that we delay popping the pod until a base is established, then have that base commence a Command Center before we pop the pod.

If we don't get a "facilities completed" result we can always change to a scout before we end the turn

(And, Zeiter, given that there's not likely going to be any energy in our early turn, I don't think it makes much of a difference whether we establish 1 base in 2101 and the second in 2103 - you can't do it in 2102 as you must have at least 1 tile of separation between bases - or 2 bases established in 2102)

	28-06-2004 08:14									#36
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Does a CC require maintenance? If so that could... cause us problems initially.

	28-06-2004 08:25									#37
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yes - at 1 ec per year

(But I still think that a facs completed goody would be awesome if we were so lucky (+4 morale troops immediately!!), even at that cost of 1 ec per year - we'll just have to pop another ec pod somewhere to finance it, or make sure we generate the energy to support it)

	28-06-2004 08:27									#38
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Then again, morale upgrades for us would be worth 1ec per year, especially if the center was built for free.

	28-06-2004 08:30									#39
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Yes, of course, I meant get the CP built in 2103 after moving it due south 2 tiles (or moving it south 1 tile and then moving it either W, SW, S, SE, or E in 2102, depending on what the terrain to the south looks like). But yes, if we plant it due south 2 tiles from Sparta Command, it will still be guaranteed a rolling rainy tile in its production radius.

	28-06-2004 08:49									#40
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Also, if we popped a pod that completed a CC, but we later decided that the maintenance cost was too much, we could always scrap it for like 30 EC's.

	28-06-2004 20:20									#41
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Good point, Z

(Can we make it an inviolable rule for the Turnplayer that units are never to be put on automatic?

It cost PEACE in a coiuple of instances last game when Maki did that

G.

	28-06-2004 20:45									#42
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That rule should go without saying, yet since someone actually went ahead and did it...

I second G's proposal.

	28-06-2004 20:55									#43
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Some were little things - like crawlers en-route to a designation but not picking up anything on their stops between turns

The biggie, though, was a foil probe that IIRC, was en-route to probe the Angels when CyCon struck - if not on auto, it would have been able to return to a base to save it from subversion, but as when the turn opened it already was a further 4 tiles away (on automatic), it became irrelevant to the battle

	28-06-2004 21:32									#44
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So Googlie's test result does show that if you pop a pod after planting a base you'll never get a bad pop (worms etc) right? Also you don't want to plant a base on rainy tiles because you want to use it for food later right? What's wrong with planting a base right now and pop the pod using the second CP? Sorry for being such a noob.

	28-06-2004 21:35									#45
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They would have to move the colony pod one more square into the unknown.

	28-06-2004 23:38									#46
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If I'm correct there are currently two suggestions:

Zeiter:
1) Found Sparta Command first turn
2) pop the pod with the unity rover thereafter the same turn
3) move the second CP elsewhere to build a base in MY 2104.

Googlie:
1) Move one CP south, and the second somewhere NW or NE.
2) Found both bases the second turn and then pop the pod (with command center in production queue.

So what will we use? Or should I throw a dice before playing?

quote: (But I still think that a facs completed goody would be awesome if we were so lucky (+4 morale troops immediately!!),

Unfortunately +2 Morale SE "only" means +1 morale in overall and an extra +12,5% when defending (that's what the (+) means). So with a command center we'd get veteran troops.

quote: If we don't get a "facilities completed" result we can always change to a scout before we end the turn

If our first worker works a rolling&rainy tile, our base would be able to grow to size 2 before completing a colony pod. So therefore I was wondering: what would you think about foregoing scout patrol production for now and immediately building a CP in one or both of our bases?

On the other hand, there's a fungus tile next to our landing site. Also a potential problem could be that the turn after we found the base and start CP production, we pop a pod with a monolith or mineral resource. When working that, the CP would be finished before the base grows.

	29-06-2004 00:03									#47
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I'm actually beginning to lean more towards Goolgie's suggestion of planting both bases on the second turn. I guess moving the first CP to the NW and the 2nd to the south would be the way to go. Meanwhile we could move the rover to the west and then to the north, then on the 2nd turn pop the pod on its first move.

	29-06-2004 21:50									#48
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starting techs: centauri ecology, Doctrine: flexibility, progenitor pysch, biogenetics, industrial base, social pysch, applied physics

	29-06-2004 22:13									#49
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Ah good. That seems to be in accordance with the research planner for Sparta. Spartans who are interested, download it here.

If you want the original file of Minute Mirage, get it here:
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...es_v1[1].07.zip

If you want to know the logic behind it, read this thread.

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter I'm actually beginning to lean more towards Goolgie's suggestion of planting both bases on the second turn.

That's decided then (I guess?)

	30-06-2004 01:49									#50
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well, isn't this interesting !!

I built myself a little start simulator (couldn't quite get the elevation and rolling/rainy exactly the same, but it's good enough for illustrative purposes - attached)

Option 1: Plop Sparta Command immediately, and change production to a Command Center. Move the second CP south to found base # 2 in 2103. Pop the pod first turn with the rover.

Here are the ten results of my test:

nut special - 3 times

then, once each:

nut with a river !!
River source
Cartographic map (11 x 11 tiles)
Battle Ogre II
Unity Rover
Completion of the Command Center
Monolith

Basic research rate (with sliders maxing at 30/10/60) was tech every 8 turns, reducing to 5 after the 2nd base was founded (so in effect the tech came in 2108)

With the monolith, the tech became 5 turns (ie in 2106), reducing to 3 after the second base in 2103 (but still 2106)

Strangely the rate didn't change with the river, even when I put the SC worker on it for the extra energy

Option # 2: Use the first turn to move the CP's 1-tile apart, then found 2 bases in 2102. Change the production in the one closest to the seedpod to a Command Center, then pop the pod with the rover

here are the ten:

nut special 3 times
monolith twice

and then, once each:

Unity rover
clone of my unity rover,
Command Center completion
50 ec's
Cartograph display of 11 x 11 tiles

Basic research rate (sliders to 30/10/60) was a tech every 5 turns - first tech in 2107

With the monolith, the rate dropped to 4 techs (to 2106, as the pod gets popped in 2102

**************************************************


Conclusions:


Not very scientific, of course, but in either case, it seems that we'll get our first tech no earlier than 2106.

I'm leaning towrads planting the flag in 2101 with Sparta Command, changing production to a Command Center, then popping the pod. A monolith or a completion is great, ec's are good, and nuts just so-so.

But we are no worse off than we'd be if we moved the 1 tile separation that first turn then planted both bases, and might be a little better better off (Sparta Command starts growing its pop 1 turn earlier - moreso if we do pop a nut special)

G.

Attachment: simstart, 2101.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

Last edited by Googlie on 30-06-2004 at 01:56

	30-06-2004 01:49									#51
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To summarize:

If I were playing the turn, I'd:

Found Sparta Command where it is right now, and change the production to a Command Center

Set the sliders to 30/10/60, for a "tech in 8 turns"

Move the 2nd colony pod due south

Pop the pod with the rover. If a facility complete, great. If a monolith, move the worker to it (becomes tech in 5, with sliders at 20/10/80), or if a nut, or river + nut, move the worker as well, and in any of these 3 situations, change the production to a colony pod (extra pop in 8, with a 3 nut tile, but pod in 21, with no minerals from that worker - but that can be accelerated closer to completion of the pop to put the worker back on the 2 nut/1 mineral tile. Either way, we'd have our next colony pod in around ten to twelve turns

If anything else gets popped, change back to a scout or rover, and leave the worker tending the 2 nut/1 mineral tile

Next turn, continue moving the 2nd colony pod south or southwest, and found 2nd base in 2103

Any comments? Agree or disagree?

G.

Last edited by Googlie on 30-06-2004 at 06:22

	30-06-2004 01:50									#52
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(and don't go by the 4 techs that my little scenario offers - there's the "designer's flaw" in that I set the original techs as discoveries rather than as faction techs (ie I put them as "tech breakthru", which was easier at the time)

So my scenario shows only 4: cent ecol; infonets; ind base and soc psych as being available.

Kody has confirmed (earlier above) that we will have a choice of 7:

centauri ecology, Doctrine: flexibility, progenitor pysch, biogenetics, industrial base, social pysch, and applied physics

Didn't we disacuss in the off-'poly forum that we'd go for flex first, as that was our big advantage? (mobility >>> flex)

Then towards Planetary Networks so that we'll get early defensive, offensive and foil probes? (so we'd need infonets >>>> plan nets for that)

G.

Last edited by Googlie on 30-06-2004 at 06:39

	30-06-2004 01:50									#53
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Some further testing;

premise #1: what if we popped the pod with the rover, before doing anything else?

ten results:

monolith - 4 times
nut special - 4 times
AA
spore launcher (which the rover killed for 10 ec's)

pretty good result I'd say

premise #2: pop it with a colony pod right of the bat

ten results:

nut - 5 times
river source - twice
hydronoponics, giving 6 forest tiles !!

and in all 3 cases, the base can be founded on it next turn, 'cos it will have the 1 tile of separation by then

but - 2 baddies

spore launcher (again, the rover can still kill it for the 10 ec's), and, finally,
fungal bloom (worst of all, cos it spread right under the pod so we'd lose a turn moving it back

Conclusion?

We can forego the possibility of getting a Command center instabuilt if we pop the pod immediately with the Rover, and stand about an 80% probability of getting a monolith or a nut special

Last edited by Googlie on 30-06-2004 at 06:56

	30-06-2004 02:00									#54
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Wow Googlie is really enraged.

[Edit] Looks like I was DanSed if it is the correct use of the word.

Last edited by Snowflake on 29-07-2004 at 01:20

	30-06-2004 02:53									#55
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double posts infilled with meaningful insights

(is anyone else fed up with how often CNN thank their reporters for "your insights" - Good Grief - reporters report, they don't give insights)

(and HongHu, you'll need to edit your post now with something witty (or insightful???) as future generations of readers will now read your post and say "Huh?")

G.

Last edited by Googlie on 30-06-2004 at 07:03

	30-06-2004 06:16									#56
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code:
Centauri Ecology	Explore		1
Doctrine: Flexibility	Explore		2
Progenitor Pysch	Explore		1
Biogenetics		Discover	1
Industrial Base		Build		1
Social Pysch		Build		1
Applied Physics		Conquer		1

Last edited by Skanky Burns on 30-06-2004 at 07:26

	30-06-2004 06:40									#57
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(I used one of my emptied quadruplicate posts (above) to comment on our research path)

summary: doc flex, then infonets, then plan nets

G.

	30-06-2004 07:20									#58
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Agggh! I've been DanSed!!!

	30-06-2004 07:31									#59
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*snicker*

Honghu's comment with come back to haunt you when this ACDG finishes.

"Googlie's enraged, oh I wonder what happened. It must have been pretty bad, maybe one of the mods banned one of his tactics or something. No I think it might have been something to do with diplomancy. No that can't be right, notice the date on the posts it's only turn 1 and the turn hadn't arrived at the time. So they would be breaking the no-contact law if that was the case. Do you reckon that could possibly be the reason why he was enraged, I mean he might have talked to a person on of the other teams and one of the mods came down on him for sharing secret information. Hrmm I don't know it seems unlike Googlie, maybe it was something else. Check if there's any old peace members from the ACDGII posting in this or the public forum shortly before that post. I don't know do you think it could be archived already....."

	30-06-2004 07:34									#60
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

ROFLOL