06-07-2004 18:09									#91
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We get Centauri Ecology in 2104, and assuming we found SC2 then and there, we can put a former into production and rush it to 1 turn completion prolly the turn thereafter.

Having a former working that much earlier is, to my way of thinking, more valuable than getting a new base 1 turn earlier (which base would cramp Sparta Command more than this alternative anyway)

Downside is, we don't know if there are any pods to pop around. If that juicy pod at 58:16 is a monolith, or ec's, etc, then it would offset any benefits of having a former five turns earlier

Last edited by Googlie on 06-07-2004 at 18:24

	06-07-2004 18:40									#92
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The problem being:

If we found SC2 where we've discussed (2 moves downriver), put a CC in production then pop the pod - and get no facs completion - we'll then put a rover into production.

If we then change to a former when we get Cent Ecol, we'll forfeit 1 mineral (but will have that first row completed)

So maybe we'll be able to afford rushing the former (23 ec's by then, with our industry penalty) so we'd still have our former by 2105, the same as in the other alternative, except that we'd be further ahead in SC2 in pop growth, and in the meantime might have popped a significant goody

So what does it all mean?

Found Santiago Citadel at 58:18, put a CC in production, pop the pod at 59:18, reset production to a rover if we don't get a facs completion

Don't rush the SC1 rover (unless we get 25 ec's or better with the podpop)

In 2104, after we get Cent Ecol, change SC2's production from a rover to a former and rush it that turn to 1 turn-to-complete (or as soon as affordable afterwards), then build a defensive scout there

Continue exploring the Garland Crater (we need a proprietary name for that) northwest with Zeiter's rover (which is now 1 tile north of Santiago Citadel anyway)

Any alternative viewpoints? (sorry for being so vacillating)

G.

	06-07-2004 19:25									#93
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I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. Do you suggest to build our second base on the flat & moist (58.18), or the coastal (57.21)? Anyway, I agree (57.21) would be a perfect base site, however we can always move the first produced colony pod in SC2 to that site and build a base. So personally I'd prefer to stick to (58.18) for Santagio Citadel.

Some comments/questions:

quote: We get Centauri Ecology in 2104

How did you calculate that? We currently have 7 of the required 14 labs. With popping the pod we should get an extra one. SC1 provides 3, meaning we get to 11. So to get CentEcol next year SC2 should produce 4 energy (1 credit and 3 labs) this turn already. AFAI can see, that's only possible when we get a monolith from the pod. In all other cases I assume MY 2105 will be most likely.

quote: So maybe we'll be able to afford rushing the former (23 ec's by then, with our industry penalty)

With our likely credit production of 2 (after SC2 would be founded), we can only get that amount of cash the next few years if we pop a credit pod.

	06-07-2004 20:09									#94
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Hmm - we need to accumulate 14 labpoints and we start with 7

SC gives 3 energy = 10
podpop gives 1 = 11
SC2 on a river gives 3 = 14

I guess the question is, do we get the tech that turn or carryforward (tech needed - 0)

Aha - but I see. SC produces 4 energy but gives 3 labpoints after allocations. SC2 produces 3 energy being based on a river with a worker working a river tile but will give 2 labpoints (rounded) after energy allocations

So earliest is 2105 - unless we pop a monolith or an energy special

My mistake

And, yes, my recommendation is to build the SC2 at 58:18

	06-07-2004 20:48									#95
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quote: And, yes, my recommendation is to build the SC2 at 58:18

Okay, I moved the CP and rover. Midturn report:

• Colony pod moved to (58.18). Santiago Citadel founded.
  
• R-112 Corazon Recon Vehicle drove to coordinates (58.16) and discovered another monolith. This time I did choose a morale upgrade as the rover would only have 1/3 MP left anyway, with thus little chance to get anywhere else this year.
  
• Santiago Citadel production set to a scout rover.
  
• Centauri Ecology will be researched next year.

	06-07-2004 22:09									#96
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I'd go ahead and rush the rover.

If PBEMs are all about turn advantage, then the more - and earlier - we pop pods the better, so roversRus

Next turn I'd move the ZeiterRover upriver thru 57:15, northwest of SC2, and send the SC1's new rover thru 62:22 to see what's in the 5 tiles south. If a pod, then do we do the "switch production to a CC" and pop it? If unsuccessful, then do we interpose a former build at SC1 before the next colony pod?

And if we pop energy credits, then do we change production at SC2 to a former, lose the mineral(s), but rush to completion?

G.

Last edited by Googlie on 06-07-2004 at 22:19

	07-07-2004 03:51									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Next turn I'd move the ZeiterRover upriver thru 57:15, northwest of SC2, and send the SC1's new rover thru 62:22 to see what's in the 5 tiles south.

Roger that.

quote: If a pod, then do we do the "switch production to a CC" and pop it?

Certainly. Eventually we must get lucky and get a materials pod.

quote: If unsuccessful, then do we interpose a former build at SC1 before the next colony pod? And if we pop energy credits, then do we change production at SC2 to a former, lose the mineral(s), but rush to completion?

I'm considering how much we could use formers at this point of the game. If we had a worse starting position, formers would definitely be the way to go. However we've been extremely lucky with pod popping and now have a monolith in the base radius of both our bases producing 2-2-2, the best we can get right now without bonus squares. Also I guess our two next bases would be founded with a rolling & rainy (river) square in their neighbourhood, so much improvement we can't do there either.

That only leaves roads to build for now. And I assume the turn advantage of first building formers, and them building roads to the base sites of the CPs next in production line, would be smaller than immediately building CPs and moving through a few unroaded tiles before being able to found the bases.

So personally for now my suggestion would be to finish the rovers, then build a colony pod in both SC's, and as third item build a former in each base to start road-connecting our colony of four bases by now, and building roads to future base sites (with of course terraformations in between when necessary).

Anyway, once we've explored a bit more and located a few potential base sites, I could perhaps use the turn simulator to test out what approach seems best.

	07-07-2004 04:07									#99
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I agree. On reading thru some of the old posts from the off-site forum, we talked about going for Doc Flex and Plan Nets, for foil probes, early on.

To do that we need a coastal base, and the options seem to be southwest of Sparta Command (where we got a tantalising glimpse of a lake or seafrontage), East of Sparta Command (looking at the map topographically - with mapgrid on - it would appear to have some sea-level between us and hills/mountains to the east), and North of Santiago Citadel (we're just a few tiles below the northern polar cap - and it's usually water there)

Also, our 2 bases are going to have CP's rush-built as soon as they get to pop 2 size, so working the monolith in each is as good as it gets with the 2-2-2 for each base. As well, we do seem to be blessed with rivers that facilitate colony pod movement around our corner of the map, so formers would be a bit of a luxury right now (unless, maybe , to prep base sites with sensors)

	07-07-2004 17:22									#100
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I would agree on waiting to build some formers. We don't really need them right now, and with a scout rover and former being supported by each base, when we produce a new CP, we'd have to pay 1 min of support until we get our next base established.

Also, when should we station units in our bases permanently for drone control? Are we plannning on just turning the citizens to doctors the turn before the growth to size 2, and then rushing the CP's that next turn, and then getting new CP's the turn after that?

	08-07-2004 02:31									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Also, when should we station units in our bases permanently for drone control? Are we plannning on just turning the citizens to doctors the turn before the growth to size 2, and then rushing the CP's that next turn, and then getting new CP's the turn after that?

We could perhaps plan the exploration path of one of our rovers in such a way that it will return into Sparta Command the turn before it grows to size 2. That way we could let the base grow to size 2 without using a doctor.

Also if we then as you say immediately hurry the CP, the rover could immediately leave Sparta Command and move towards Santiago Citadel. It would arrive there two turns later, just in time before SC2 grows to size 2.

	09-07-2004 18:12									#102
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Hmm - I haven't seen Maniac on the board for over 24 hours now.

I downloaded the turn when jtisyoda first posted it on July 7th. Should I go ahead and play it, following our agreed-upon orders?

(Which are:

> Change research to Doc Flex(after getting Cent Ecol this turn)
> move the original rover up the river to the northwest;
> move new Sparta Command rover south to see what's below Sparta Command, and
> change production there to a Colony Pod?)

G.

	09-07-2004 19:10									#103
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Well, as the weekend is on us, and the moves non-contentious, I went ahead in the interests of moving along

Attachment: 2104 presend.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

Last edited by Googlie on 10-07-2004 at 02:53

	09-07-2004 19:23									#104
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Wow, sorry. I was simply unaware our turn had already been posted in the turn tracking thread yesterday.

In any case, great played turn.

	09-07-2004 20:46									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Well, as the weekend is on us, and the moves non-contentious, I went ahead in the interests of moving along Battle Report MY 2104 [list[*]Centauri Ecology discovered. Turned boffins loose on Doctrine Flexibility (6 turns) [*]R-112 Corazon Recon Vehicle drove downriver to coordinates (54:12) and discovered ocean frontage [*]Sparta Command scout rover completed and moved south of the base to explore territory - stalled on a rocky tile (62:24). [*]Production changed at Sparta Command to a Colony Pod(11 turns, new pop in 8)[/list]

sounds good. We had it all planned out. I missed the discussion on Flexiblility though. But that sounds good.

	09-07-2004 23:04									#106
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We're off to a good start I think! I'm surprised that we are leaving our bases unmanned and are planning to do so for long, but I guess you guys know what you are doing Mindworms tend to eat my bases if left unattended.

Also, I've noticed that we have our energy allocations set to 10% psych, could somebody humor me and explain why?

	10-07-2004 00:42									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen but I guess you guys know what you are doing

I hope so too...
Nah seriously many veterans seem to agree that the minerals one saves by not building garrisons for all bases greatly outweigh the possible but rather unlikely downside of losing a base to a worm. So most likely we should be fine. Though there is of course a small chance we could run out of luck in this particular game. Basically it's a gamble: instead of building scouts and having a a low economic growth, we currently choose for a tactic that should normally give us a much higher economic growth, but also an increased risk of failure (however IMHO the increased benefits are much higher than the increased risks).

quote: Also, I've noticed that we have our energy allocations set to 10% psych, could somebody humor me and explain why?

It's basically a balancing exercise. We are trying to maximize labs output without losing any credits or labs to inefficiency of energy allocations. When setting energy allocations to 50-0-50 or 40-0-60, both bases would still produce 2 labs and 2 credits, while we want them to produce 1 credit and 3 labs each. To achieve that goal, we need to set economy/credit production as low as 30%. However as you probably know, the more the credit and labs allocations diverge from 50%, the higher a percentage of credits & labs is lost to inefficiency. Currently that's -8% labs and -16% economy, but because we're producing so few credits & labs, this has no effect. But if you would for example set labs production to 100%, you'd see we'd have 40% efficiency, meaning we lose 4 of the 8 produced labs.

So to avoid having to diverge the labs allocations too much from 50%, we've set the psych production to 10% (which doesn't have any psych production as a consequence btw). But as a consequence we can set labs production to 60% instead of 70% while still maximizing labs production without inefficiency.

Anyway, I've checked what would be the results of using 30-0-70 energy allocation instead of 30-10-60, and it appears it wouldn't make a difference at all. However in many other games there would be a difference between those two settings, so I guess I just set the energy allocations to 30-10-60 out of habit without checking many other settings.

I hope this explain things. Though apparently I do have the tendency to explains things too difficult from time to time. So just say so if I'm talking nonsense.

	10-07-2004 01:14									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac [...] we currently choose for a tactic that should normally give us a much higher economic growth, but also an increased risk of failure (however IMHO the increased benefits are much higher than the increased risks).

I'll take your word for it And judging by the speed we are expanding in this game I will certainly try this myself.

quote: It's basically a balancing exercise. We are trying to maximize labs output without losing any credits or labs to inefficiency of energy allocations.

Great explanations, thanks!

I usually don't spend energy on psych in my games unless using a free market, and certainly not when I have no base larger than 1

It doesn't make a difference in this case, but you generally get less research with a 30-10-60 than you would with a 30-0-70 setup since 70*(1-16%) is slightly larger than 60*(1-8%), and since I wasn't concerned with psych it kind of surprised me that we would invest energy in that. Of course, in this case, both options are equal.

However, in general, a 30-10-60 setup effectively uses 90.4% of all energy wheres a 30-0-70 only uses 84.0%, so I can see why you would instinctively prefer it

(PS. I had no idea what these numbers were until I just calculated them )

	10-07-2004 01:53									#109
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my 2 euro cents.

*I think we should build more Recon Rovers before building a CP. that way we could get larger are a explored, more pods popped and there would be greater possibility that one of the rovers is near a base should those evil mind worms attack. in my own games I usually build 4 recon rovers from Sparta Command before building anything else.
*Doctrine: Flexibility is just fine with me.
*IMHO next areas to be explored are that Buster's Crater and that other rover should continue towars south.
*IMHO next city sites should be: Base 3 on the shore of that body of water towards south from Sparta Command. Base 4 on that river delta. and Base 5 in somewhere Buster's Crater.
*those 3 rivers should be named.
*when we start with that secret project?


and thanks Maniac, I just learned something about SMAC.

	10-07-2004 03:18									#110
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Well we have another rover just 3 turns from completion at Santiago's Citadel, so it should be able to deal with any threat coming from the northwest 3 tiles at Sparta Command (one movement point expended moving upriver 2 tiles, then can attack anything at the Sparta Command monolith tile or the next 2 southwest of it)

Questions for next turn. Do both rovers pop the pods that they are adjacent to?

Or does the R-112 Corazon Recon Vehicle move to the river mouth and see if there is a landbridge going north of that? (and if not, does it then turn southwest to skirt the oceanfront of Buster's Crater?)

Does our second rover turn northwest then east to see what that single black tile is hiding, and thus map out what that piece of shoreline looks like?

My recommendations would be to delay the podpopping and move the 2 rovers as outlined above.

G.

	10-07-2004 04:34									#111
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How long did you want to delay pod popping. I'm not sure how close we are to other factions. Although the good thing is no one should have rovers as we do.

And I would feel more comfortable if we could have 1 rover looking after both bases. But we can afford to go a few more turns with no garrison I'd say. But I don't like to push my luck .

	10-07-2004 05:28									#112
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Ideally, delay podpopping (of these 2 pods) until they are within a base radius.

I have no problem with popping the more outlying pods, but the ability to perhaps get a facility completed for free, to me, outweighs either a tech (which we prolly couldn't use right now, such as Ind Base, as we wouldn't build synthmetal sentinels yet - and would serve to drag down our research rate as well) or, even worse, a mindworm that would just deliver 10 ec's upon our killing it

But a permanently-stationed rover in each base does make sense (moreso than a scout, as both would eventually take up 1 mineral to support, and the rover would be more versatile)

Oh - and if I understand Drogue correctly, we go through Yang to get to other factions, so we're prolly some turns away from meeting anyone yet

(but wouldn't it be nice to be trund;ling along in our rover and come across an empty base of another faction, pushing their luck like we are??)

	10-07-2004 20:05									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Ideally, delay podpopping (of these 2 pods) until they are within a base radius.

This brings us to the question: "Where will we found our next two bases?"

If we would for example move the Sparta Command CP to (63.23), the 'Red River' source, to found a base there, the unity pod would fall within the new base radius. However if instead using the first Santiago Citadel CP to found a base on (57.21), the river tile bordering the (probable) ocean thus allowing us to build a gun foil and explore the seas, we would use the Sparta Command CP to found a base there, and use the first Santiago Citadel CP instead to push west into the Buster Crater, it could take a long long time before we have a CP to found a base near that southern unity pod.

	11-07-2004 01:46									#114
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I'd say move the R-112 CRV NW one tile to explore that land bridge, and then:

If land looks promising up there, explore up there.
If not, move SW and explore buster crater.

With the southern rover, I think we should move it NW and then W to explore that probable future base site.

As for where to put the next bases, I say the next CP from Sparta Command should go 1 tile S and 1 tile SE, and plant on that river. It would have plenty of rolling/rainy tiles to work, and we'd get it planted very quickly. The next CP from Santiago Citidel could go:

2 tiles SW, then 1 tile SE, and plant on the river with ocean access. (This is the option I am favoring).

Or

1 tile W, 1 tile NW, then plant right there where it can work either the crater tiles or a rainy/river/rolling tile to the north.

Planting our bases thus will get them built quickly. It would also set up the next stage of base expansion nicely:

2nd CP produced from Sparta Command would go 2 tiles N and plant on the river there.

2nd CP produced from Santiago Citidel could plant in whichever place described above that the previous CP wasn't planted in.

1st CP from most southwestern base could be planted 2 tiles to the W or it could follow that river NE.

1st CP from the most Southeasterly base (the one with ocean access) could either plant in the south part of the crater or plant somewhere to the SW that has yet to be explored.

	11-07-2004 17:47									#115
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Maniac:

2105 is up

G.

	11-07-2004 19:24									#116
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Thanks for the reminder.

A problem though is that there isn't an absolute agreement about the rover actions. For the future when things will get more complicated, this will probably happen even more, so people responsible for officializing the different orders would be useful.

I've moved R-112 CRV one tile NW. A flat & moist tile is detected to our north. Proceed to that direction as suggested?

Both Zeiter and you agreed to move the Chiron Knights one tile NW. Zeiter though wants to move it west, you east. Personally I have a slight preference for moving it east, as that would mean we end up on a rover = faster exploration. Is that ok?

Oh yeah, I've thought of something. We could again hurry scout rover production in Santiago Citadel for 7 credits, to get the rover one turn earlier than usual. Is that ok?

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...rta-2105mid.zip


Edit after some consideration: Zeiter and Googlie both liked moving R-112 CRV north and Googlie and I moving the Chiron Knights east, so I guess this would have a majority. Also previous time people liked the hurrying, so I assume it would pass now too. Therefore I'll play the turn further in an hour or so unless there are negative comments.

Last edited by Maniac on 11-07-2004 at 19:34

	11-07-2004 20:21									#117
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Sounds good.

I guess we could start to set up separate threads for different tasks (rover exploration, base management, etc.) and get people in charge of each department in order to streamline things a bit and remove any confusion over what the consensus is on any given turn.

	11-07-2004 21:10									#118
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Last edited by Maniac on 11-07-2004 at 22:01

	12-07-2004 05:00									#119
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hmm, I haven't downloaded stuff from Poly before. I get the option to open or save to disk. When I click save to disk nothing happens. I would like to view the save to look at base sites. Although I'm more interested in looking where to explore.

	12-07-2004 05:10									#120
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Disregard. I just noticed there's an updated map in the map thread

The land looks interesting. I'm still not sure where to put the next bases yet. We have some large unexplored areas that I would like to see. I would like to send a rover west into the crater. And scout out that area. Sine it will be finished next turn, that sounds like a good idea. Pluse I don't like having unexplored territory in the city radius. That always bothers me

The southern rover could go ne up the river, though that is risky with the xenofungus. Seeing as our base is undefended. But the rover should have enough movement to attack any worms.

the northern rover we can send east as well. maybe NE. We can determine the extent of the rainy tiles. Those unity pods should be okay for now. we aren't in a hurry to get those. I'm guessing there is no one to the west of us.

I'm thinking there may be more coastline to the west of us. And we are on the western edge of the continent. this is good because of the rainy tiles. And the crater will help out our minerals a bit.