21-08-2004 03:45									#241
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HGmm - I'd rather get Ind Auto from Morgan for Gene Splicing (it's on our Doc Int/MCC beeline)

plus - I get a harrumph message from yang when tryong to get Morgan's commlink (right wing loonies, and all that)

but ..................

That IoD that we evaded will likely drop its mindworm cargo off in the fungus at 63:39, so we can hunt it/them down with our elite Chiron Knights, giving us some additional ec's (Remember that CK now has 3 movement points!!)

And those elite rovers are an expensive way to garrison bases - why don't we churn out 2 or 3 basic scouts at Santiago Citadel (2 turns if we change the probe team there) for garrison duty, then focus on some defensive probes

(I presume that when OA produces its probe team in 3 turns that we move it downriver to GH - it'll make it in 1 turn - in time to board the trannie - completed in 4 turns - and sending it Great Collective's way. No need to rush either of these units, IMO)

Do we want to detour Warwag thru Sector Cratersouth and rehome it there? That way Craterwest won't suffer a minerals penalty when the colony pod is built

	21-08-2004 04:56									#242
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Once we get the loan from Lal, we'll likely be able to afford gene splicing on our own.

quote: And those elite rovers are an expensive way to garrison bases - why don't we churn out 2 or 3 basic scouts at Santiago Citadel (2 turns if we change the probe team there) for garrison duty, then focus on some defensive probes

Perhaps. Although those rovers aren't really doing anything right now, so garrison duty is fine for now. But we should also try to make Int.Integrity a long-term goal. Those cheap 1-1-1 police are awesome. And we could control 4 drones in that fashion, which, coupled with a rec commons, would get our cities to size 7 without any drones. No need to build holotheatres or use doctors at all before hab complexes.

Also, you think we need to get defensive probes up already? Nobody else had doc:flex, so they have no way of getting their probes here, and on top of that, they don't even know where we are yet. So I'd say the risk of getting infiltrated is minimal right now. There are other more pressing matters for us right now, I think.

I guess neither the Morganites or Data Angels want to talk to us, as they haven't purchased our commlink from Yang yet. I would infer then that talks with them wouldn't be particularly fruitful anyways if they have no urge to talk or do business with us.

	21-08-2004 08:27									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Also, you think we need to get defensive probes up already? Nobody else had doc:flex, so they have no way of getting their probes here, and on top of that, they don't even know where we are yet. So I'd say the risk of getting infiltrated is minimal right now. There are other more pressing matters for us right now, I think.

Don't forget that they can pop a Unity Foil (as Zak has) and - the Angels especially - could load a probeteam, on one and send it exploring

quote: I guess neither the Morganites or Data Angels want to talk to us, as they haven't purchased our commlink from Yang yet. I would infer then that talks with them wouldn't be particularly fruitful anyways if they have no urge to talk or do business with us.

Of course it could be that they didn't get our not-so-subtle hints that we'd found Yang (or, as with us, Yang might just be refusing to sell it to them now)

	21-08-2004 15:58									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie HGmm - I'd rather get Ind Auto from Morgan for Gene Splicing (it's on our Doc Int/MCC beeline)

Sounds great!

quote: That IoD that we evaded will likely drop its mindworm cargo off in the fungus at 63:39, so we can hunt it/them down with our elite Chiron Knights, giving us some additional ec's (Remember that CK now has 3 movement points!!)

Ah I'm afraid that IoD didn't have a cargo AFAIK.

quote: Do we want to detour Warwag thru Sector Cratersouth and rehome it there? That way Craterwest won't suffer a minerals penalty when the colony pod is built

Sounds good to me.



Re the Morganites or the Angels not having contacted us, something GeoModder said a while back IRL (can't remember anymore what it was though ) made me think that the Angels weren't even aware human commlinks could be bought from the Hive. Do you think it could be possible only we are aware of this possibility?

	21-08-2004 19:34									#245
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Question: What will be the task of the probe team now under production in Santiago Citadel?

	22-08-2004 01:06									#246
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I've been running a simulation, and based on that I've got a few suggestions:

Olympus Academy will grow to size 2 in five turns. And problem is we don't have any unit available to garrison the base when that happens: all are already taken up for exploration or garrison duty elsewhere. That's why I'd propose to follow Googlie's suggestion to build a scout patrol now in Santiago Citadel. It would take two turns to produce and two turns to get there, so we'd reach OA a bit before they're needed there.

This would mean we couldn't build a probe team right away in SC2. But am I correct the purpose of that probe team would be to infiltrate Zakharov or a human faction to our west? In that case we couldn't use the probe team for a few years anyway if we started building it right away. It'll take several years for our transport to go infiltrate Yang and come back before we could go explore our west for another faction. And I estimate we'll only get an eastern coastal base (to build a transport and go infiltrate Zak?) around MY 2141.

So we could wait a few years before building a second probe team. Therefore I'd like to propose the following build queue for Santiago Citadel:
1) scout patrol (to garrison OA)
2) former (to build a road east of SC2 and then go help mining the mineral rocks north of OA)
3) the probe team


Something else concerning Olympus Academy: Do we still want to build a colony pod there? This would mean we couldn't keep the base at size 2, and thus would be unable to work both the monolith and the rocky minerals. How about we only build a colony pod in Sparta Command, and establish for now only one eastern coastal base, near that northeastern minerals bonus tile (allowing us to quickly build transport(s) and infiltrate/invade Zakharov)? OA could instead build eg a former after the current probe team is finished, to speed up construction of that IMHO rather important minerals mine.

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	22-08-2004 02:56									#247
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quote: Olympus Academy will grow to size 2 in five turns. And problem is we don't have any unit available to garrison the base when that happens: all are already taken up for exploration or garrison duty elsewhere. That's why I'd propose to follow Googlie's suggestion to build a scout patrol now in Santiago Citadel. It would take two turns to produce and two turns to get there, so we'd reach OA a bit before they're needed there.

We could always nervestaple OA.

How about we use the next eastern colony pod to found that southern coastal base option by the sea nutrient tile? Then, that base will grow quickly, and we can build a CP there, which we will plant to the north near the coastal min tile.

	22-08-2004 04:38									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter How about we use the next eastern colony pod to found that southern coastal base option by the sea nutrient tile? Then, that base will grow quickly, and we can build a CP there, which we will plant to the north near the coastal min tile.

That base near the nutrient tile could be established in the same year as a base near the minerals tile. Without hurrying it would probably take some 12 years to build another CP (10 minerals to start with, 8 minerals added in the 8 turns while the base is size 1 and working the 3-0-0 tile, and then the last 12 minerals when the base is at size 2 and producing 3 minerals/turn, assuming a forest could be worked then). Then three more years transportation before we could found the new base. And then we still would have to start building a transport.

There's also another matter to consider. Our bureaucracy limit is six. Every base beyond that adds on average two bureaucracy-drones. Meaning we would have to build two extra scout patrols to compensate per base we build. This makes founding new bases a less lucrative investment than it was until now. That's why I'd personally prefer to limit colonization to very strategic (eg one base near the east/west coast) or productive sites, until we have a road network, connecting all our bases and allowing us to move police forces fast in our empire. Then we could react more easily to new drones arising because of new base foundations.

	22-08-2004 05:47									#249
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Ah, yes, b-drones. Good point. So, the northern base it'll be, then.

This gives us even more of an incentive to get GS. That way we can start building upwards if we encounter problems like b-drones from building outwards. I would also suggest researching social psych sometime in the future.

	22-08-2004 06:05									#250
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Some thoughts re the above (not necessarily in any order):

First duty of the probe team should be to infiltrate Yang. Then if Invincible meets the Gaians, Angels or Morgan to the south, we should pronto send the probe back out doing its thing (assuming it survives the Yang infiltration, that is)

If yon IoD isn't carrying any mindworms, then it won't make for the nearest land (nothing to drop off) so might attack the Invincible instead. We should steel ourselves to probably lose it (I lost it 9 out of 10 in scenario tests)

I support the idea of Citadel changing to a scout, as well as the 3rd Tomcat, for roadbuilding purposes

Our best nutrient bases are the 2 crater bases - why don't we make them the colonypod generators for the time being, and use our other bases as specialty for the interim (Citadel producing units, Harbour producing naval vessels, Command doing another Colony Pod - as it will be 2 pop next turn - and Academy can be a powerhouse after that mineral special has a mine on it - maybe to get a Special Project underway (we only seem to have 3 mineral specials on our continent, plus 2 offshore)

I agree that we need to watch the drone situation - a size 2 base is useless if one of the pops is a doctor - adds nothing to the mix at all. Once we get Int Int we can add Police to our scouts for double the riot control, but that's some time away as yet. And we're at six bases now, so maybe Citadel should crank out about a half dozen cheap scouts - they'd be shells, really, with decent morale, upgradeable after we get decent armour to put on them (and maybe AAA as well down the line)

(And if we ever got the Cloning Vats we could run a 3P society - Police, Planned, Power, with awesome morale and oodles of free supported units per base - but that's waaaaay down the line)

	22-08-2004 16:30									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie If yon IoD isn't carrying any mindworms, then it won't make for the nearest land (nothing to drop off) so might attack the Invincible instead. We should steel ourselves to probably lose it (I lost it 9 out of 10 in scenario tests)

Oh darn. I have some hope though it wasn't attacked. When the Chiron Knights popped a worm out of a pod long ago, near Río Rojo, I already got to see the battle where the worm attacked after I pressed "End turn". Probably because we're the last human in the turnplay order. This time I didn't see anything though. So I'm hoping the IoD moved elsewhere.

	24-08-2004 06:15									#252
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my thoughts...

1) Probe Team sth to get Yang datalinks
2) Build cheap Probe Foil to infiltrate other factions
3) Continue expansion along Hive coast asap
4) Use Crater bases for CP's to expand nth and along east coast
5) OK w/Former production to build roads/resources
6) Weather Paradigm would be GREAT !!!
7) Scout Patrols to limit drone problem and free-up Rovers for Pod Popping/explore

	25-08-2004 04:53									#253
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Quickly playing the turn before going to bed:

• When I opened the turn, the diplomacy window with the Angels appeared, empty.
  
• Sector Cratersouth completes former. New production set to colony pod.
  
• SC2 production changed to scout patrol. SC1 production set to colony pod.
  
• Shinsengumi moved to SC1 for garrison duty.
  
• Former Tomcat-2 commenced building a road between SC1 and OA.
  
• Warwag rehomed to Sector Cratersouth. Didn't manage to move back out SC4 this turn, but will without a problem reach its destination SC3 next year.
  
• Tomcat-3 moving in position to plant a forest on that SC4 nutrient bonus.
  
• Alien Artifact moving further towards our bases.
  
• Rolling Thunder reached the northern tip of our continent and started heading back. To the pod on (64.12)?
  
• Chiron Knights finally moved out of Hivean territory. It uncovered the remaining unexplored terrain, and it ended its turn next to a unity pod.
  
• SCC Invincible further moved south as according to Captain Dissident's orders. It ended its turn next to a unity pod on an ocean tile. We can pop it next year, though of course there is some 40% chance we'll get an IoD and will have to run away. SCC Invincible also discovered a rocky tile south of its last location.
  
• R-112 CRV moved two tiles south. We've reached the southern end of a peninsula, so there's no alternative but turn around and head back into Hivean territory. Any ideas how to further proceed with this unit? Try to get it withdrawn to our nearest base? Move it straight through Hive territory in the hope Yang doesn't get pissed off too much?

I have not contacted Lal. Could someone please test in a parallel save whether it's possible to get a loan from him? If not, better leave him alone in the official turn to prevent pissing him off too much. I'll probably only be able to get next online in 20 to 24 hours, so if anyone wants to finish and post this turn after learning the necessary info about Lal, please go ahead!

I don't have time right now to make screenshots, so if someone else would want to make some, I'd be grateful.

Attachment: acdg3-sparta-2130presend.zip
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	25-08-2004 05:15									#254
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maybe the Angels are just letting them know they have our comm links, but really have no offers at the moment.

I tried contacting Lal. First he demanded doctrine: flexibility. I did request nonlinear in return, but no dice. I refused his demand. He *****ed about it, but didn't go to war or anything.

I requested a loan with generous payments, but he said he did not have any money to loan.

I could post screen shots, but my spartan cities are yellow. How do I get rid of that? One annoying thing about SMAC X is the factions get in the wrong position when I'm playing regular games. And I can't remember what position they are supposed to be in.

	25-08-2004 05:33									#255
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Thanks for the quick reply!

Seeing as Lal didn't want to trade with us, I sent the save on to Gaia.

I'll hopefully be able to reply more tomorrow, but now I urgently have to See you later!

	25-08-2004 06:11									#256
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So, wait, can we start talking to the Data Angels now? Woohoo! They must have bought our commlink from Yang. Should we partly re-imberse them? Maybe give them 15 ECs, assuming they bought the commlink for 25? I think that would set a good first impression. Did we ever decide who would be our foreign ambassador? Kassiopeia, I believe, right? Should we PM a member of the Data Angels? If contact has been legitimately made, then I say yes.

I would try to get Yang to demand a withdrawl. That would save us a lot of time, and it would get our rover back home where it could be used for drone duty.

	25-08-2004 07:43									#257
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And we must decide what we're going to do with the Angels. Ally or possible target?

	25-08-2004 17:20									#258
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I think it really depends on how close they are. So until we can locate their position, I would suggest being somewhat cooperative with them. A treaty would be great, I think. A pact, though, I would not feel comfortable with.

	25-08-2004 18:22									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac When I opened the turn, the diplomacy window with the Angels appeared, empty.

I too am confused. Why were you expecting anything in the window? What window do you mean - the diplo box? Had we contacted them last turn? (You can check if they have our commlink by seeing what is against their name in out commlink table `(eg, informal truce means that they have our link but haven't yet treatied or pacted )

quote: Rolling Thunder reached the northern tip of our continent and started heading back. To the pod on (64.12)?

I'd go along with that

Sounds like it was a decent turn

EDIT: Ah, I now see. The angels were "sending" us something

I suspect they were doing what I do - seeing what techs they had that we didn't, and deleted the techs but forgot to end the commlink session.

Do the lookup as described above - if the `angels appear just as a name, like `morgan and the `gaians, then they have not got our commlink.

	25-08-2004 20:19									#260
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I keep having the diplo window from the Angels show up for no discernable reason in WWAW too - I try to tell them there's nothing I can trade for all that lavish tech, yet they seem to be pushing it at me

	26-08-2004 03:19									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I could post screen shots, but my spartan cities are yellow. How do I get rid of that?

As this question pops up once in a while, I've just written a little article about it for the Survivalist's Guide.

How to fix wrong faction colours?

An often asked question by officer students at Olympus Academy is: "How do I get every faction's colours right in my strategy simulator?" As this issue has caused many students a headache, the Junta has decided to include a solution to this problem in our official Survivalist's Guide, to ensure everyone survives our Academy safely and without permanent trauma.

The answer is as follows.
Go to the "Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri" directory in your PNN (personal network node) and find the file "Alpha Centauri.Ini". Open it. Scroll down to the bottom. You should see a list of seven faction names. These determine the graphics of the factions in the simulation you're running. Problem is when you open a scenario or multiperson simulation, this list doesn't update. Instead IIRC it keeps the faction graphics of the last normal single person sim you ran.

To circumvent this problem, there are two methods:

Before opening eg a multiperson simulation, first start up a new single person sim with the same factions in the same order as in the multiperson sim. Immediately quit the SP sim. Now the correct graphics are saved in the ini-file and you can savely open the MP sim.

The second method is manually changing the list in the Alpha Centauri.Ini file. For the official tactical real-world simulations, you have to copy this list over the incorrect one in your ini file:

Faction 1=GAIANS
Faction 2=HIVE
Faction 3=UNIV
Faction 4=ANGELS
Faction 5=MORGAN
Faction 6=SPARTANS
Faction 7=PEACE

Now everything should be fine and you won't any longer mistakenly shoot Gaians while thinking they're Hiveans.

We at the Academy Board hope this little tutorial has been of use to you. For any further questions please contact our Secretariat of Officer Training.

	26-08-2004 04:42									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I tried contacting Lal. First he demanded doctrine: flexibility. I did request nonlinear in return, but no dice.

Lal and Zak have Nonlinear Mathematics! Pity we don't have any probe team + transport taskforces there yet to eg steal all of Zak's juicy techs.

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter I would try to get Yang to demand a withdrawl. That would save us a lot of time, and it would get our rover back home where it could be used for drone duty.

Sounds good. IIRC that's possible in diplomatic negotiations right? Ask a withdrawal, and then the AI says "only if you withdraw too." (Or they declare vendetta )

	26-08-2004 05:15									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I too am confused. Why were you expecting anything in the window? What window do you mean - the diplo box? Had we contacted them last turn? (You can check if they have our commlink by seeing what is against their name in out commlink table `(eg, informal truce means that they have our link but haven't yet treatied or pacted ) I'd go along with that Sounds like it was a decent turn EDIT: Ah, I now see. The angels were "sending" us something I suspect they were doing what I do - seeing what techs they had that we didn't, and deleted the techs but forgot to end the commlink session. Do the lookup as described above - if the `angels appear just as a name, like `morgan and the `gaians, then they have not got our commlink.

it doesn't show anything about an informal truce (for any of the human factions for that matter)

it also seems we the angels do not have contact with the university and peacekeepers (that is to be expected)

	26-08-2004 19:44									#264
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i was just checking out the pre-send and i thought u might want to know that i was chatting to zak. and he wanted yang's comm, which i sold to him for 20, then he demanded flex and i said in return for non-linear and he said "good enough for me" -- i tried it a second time, where i didn't sell him the comm first and he accepted also!!!

i think this is what we are researching now?? and it'll mean we get to carry over the research points, and research a higher tech at no greater lab points required if we were so inclined ... something to keep in mind anyway.

(when i clicked change research goal : these techs appeared == progenitor psych, social psych, industrial base, and biogenetics... all kinda crappy techs : (

Another interesting point:

We have no tech which we can give to hive as gifts. ie. we got no techs which they don't already have.

Zak. has all of our techs, (after i had traded flex.)...ie. flex is the only tech he doesn't have.

and Lal doesn't have Flex. and thats it.

Hope this helps-

	26-08-2004 19:58									#265
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One other thing which i think we should keep in mind is our future tech path.

Morgans, Gaians, and Angels, + Hive

all these factions will all lean towards the usual build tech path. Ie. eco. eng. env. eng. particularly the humans. I think that it might be a good idea to lean towards the knowledge (white) path. Primarily this should be achieved by concentrating our tech stealing efforts on Lal + UoP, since they will be the ones who will be researching things such as Optical Computers, polymorph. software WAY before the humans will. I even think that the humans will refrain from trading for these techs with UoP + Lal because it will slow them down from the build techs.

(so what can we achieve from this u might ask?)

well, it is my opinion that if we keep this in mind.. *of course we do not need to do this to a massive sacrificing extent*, then we will have a V. Good chance of getting the hunter Seeker Algorithm. and we can probe rape everybody!!!

Other than this, i think that we should try and save the alien artifact for a SP we REALLY need rather than Weather Paradigm. Such as The Planetary Datalinks, which is potentially only a few techs away, and can on the way get us intellectual integrity (police units). I think in a game like this one... planetary datalinks, hunter seeker algorithm, and to a lesser extent the planetary energy grid are the 3 most imporant SP for our context.

	26-08-2004 20:06									#266
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oh, i forgot to mention, if we stear towards cyberethics, then this will directly lead to hunter seeker, if we can steal some techs of UoP, LAL, ie. Advanced mil. algs, optical comps. Poly, Adaptive doctrine. From my experience these are priority picks for UoP and LAL! we can get these all prior to 2150, usually this is around the time UoP and Lal are really concentrating on these techs...

	28-08-2004 19:11									#267
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And then that would set us up for a quick sprint to fusion power, which would more than compensate our industry penalty because of the cheaper units, and our army would undoubtedly be the most feared on the planet.

So, what's happening in turn 2131?

	28-08-2004 19:38									#268
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This is:

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	28-08-2004 19:50									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Primus Pilus 1) Probe Team sth to get Yang datalinks

That's the plan.

quote: 2) Build cheap Probe Foil to infiltrate other factions

Do you consider probe foils cheap at the moment? Have you read the discussion regarding probe foil versus trannie filled with probes?

quote: 3) Continue expansion along Hive coast asap

IIRC the next CP from SC3 is meant for building a base on the Rio Grande. So perhaps we could use the next CP from SC4 to send to the Hive border?

quote: Originally posted by ChairmanSlick

Thanks for the info ChairmanSlick!!

So what does everyone think regarding Nonlinear Mathematics?
And what to research next after NonlMath? Problem here is of course, besides the not-so-useful Progenitor Psych, there's nothing we can research that we couldn't steal from the probably nearby Zak.

	28-08-2004 21:25									#270
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quote: So what does everyone think regarding Nonlinear Mathematics?

I say we slow our research to a snail's pace and concentrate on econ production for a while. Then we can possibly rush a transport in the east coast base, and get probe teams over there very soon. Even with allocations at 60-10-30, we'll get NLmath before we get a chance to probe it. Of course, Zak has a lot of other techs too, so our probe teams will be very busy these upcoming decades, I predict.

quote: IIRC the next CP from SC3 is meant for building a base on the Rio Grande. So perhaps we could use the next CP from SC4 to send to the Hive border?

What about using the next CP from SC3 to found on the craterbase north location? Then the next CP can go up to the Rio Grande Delta position. And I agree, we could definitely use the next CP from SC4 to found the base down by the fungal pass.

quote: Again got the Angel diplo window...

That's very odd. Perhaps they're trying to use a little psych ops to try to make us curious about what is going on so that we'll end up buying the commlink.

quote: Chiron Knights pop pod. They discover nutrient resources and... another Battle Ogre MK1 !!! How to move these units further?

The only logical thing to do with these units right now is to use them for drone control duty. We could maybe use the rover to explore other continents via a transport later on. BTW, just to clarify, Ogres get +1 police power, do they not? That means, theoretically, we could police 4 units in a single city.

I agree, move SCC Invincible east. Perhaps we can use Tomcat-1 to plant another crater farm, especially if we plan to found a Craternorth base soon. As for Chiron Knights and Fiona, I would suggest getting them back to the homeland as quickly as possible.