04-11-2004 02:54									#421
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I'm fleeing Australia for Italy to avoid John Howard...

Fair point... if you are considering Berlusconi better than Howard of course.

quote: - to where do I flee to avoid Witless!?

The North Pole seems rather safe... at least for the moment.

	04-11-2004 03:21									#422
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Fair point... if you are considering Berlusconi better than Howard of course.

As I said in a post a couple of days ago - when you were too p*ssed to read! - the difference in Italy is that it doesn't really matter who's in government. Life goes on as it has for hundreds and hundreds of years. With some rare exceptions, day-to-day government has little impact on Italians' lives. They expect their politicians to be cynical self-aggrandisers and ignore them accordingly. Just as, for the most part, they ignore the Pope. They love him, they kiss his ring, and go out and buy contraceptives by the truckload. They have their priorities right.

quote: The North Pole seems rather safe... at least for the moment.

Only until someone finds oil there! Mmmm. I wonder how the US military would cope with a polar bear insurgency.

	04-11-2004 03:58									#423
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Bullsh*t! The whole EU thing is a typically European cocktail of ideas and intentions doomed to failure because self-interest will forever be paramount.

Petty national self interests are indeed the scourge of Europe, I am convinced that creating a strong European trans-national state is a matter of survival and I am amazed that so few people are realizing it. On the contrary, an European state is seen as a threat to national self determination, to national independence and so on...

The real question is to know what you want or not. You can't be a member of a group without alienating a part of your freedom and this is the same thing for a nation. The question is thus to know if some states (like the United Kingdoms for example ) are ready or not to make some sacrifices (and I am not talking about the mere monetary or financial ones) to really become a part of the European Union. If they are not they should say it clearly and quit an organization they will beg to return to in the following years.

Of course I am a bit exaggerating but Europe is at a turning point. But our politicians are so dumb that they will manage to convince most of the European countries to reject a set of laws I believe we really need. In France, for example, the opponents of the said constitution will wave the threat of the Turkish membership and link it to the vote over the European Constitution.

Why do we need a Constitution? Because the EU is still ruled through laws and principles dating back from the time the member states were only five or so. If we consider the Rule of Unanimity, it is obvious that this principle is no more appropriate with 25 members and that it would be suicidal to keep it.

In the meantime, the stronger power on the other side of the Atlantic (which does not care a dime about Europe) get the giggles each time it looks at those s*ds on this side of the Atlantic unable to ally themselves in order to build a better future for themselves.

My words are bitter, I am sorry, but I am really angry today. We, the Europeans, could be a power that counts in the world and we are endlessly repeating the errors of the past because of a fading glory amounting today to a petty arrogance. The United States of America are strong because its member states are united around a common vision. We are not yet united and we even do not agree about the fact we should at least share a common ground.

Once again I am sorry about the sadness and pessimism of these words but I felt the urge to say it... I won't do it again.

	04-11-2004 04:02									#424
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quote: Originally posted by finbar As I said in a post a couple of days ago - when you were too p*ssed to read! - the difference in Italy is that it doesn't really matter who's in government. Life goes on as it has for hundreds and hundreds of years. With some rare exceptions, day-to-day government has little impact on Italians' lives. They expect their politicians to be cynical self-aggrandisers and ignore them accordingly. Just as, for the most part, they ignore the Pope. They love him, they kiss his ring, and go out and buy contraceptives by the truckload. They have their priorities right.

quote: Only until someone finds oil there! Mmmm. I wonder how the US military would cope with a polar bear insurgency.

New fur coats?

	04-11-2004 05:06									#425
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin New fur coats?

The mind boggles at the thought of a polar bear insurgency. Polar bears lumbering up to igloos and detonating their explosives belts.

	04-11-2004 05:15									#426
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Once again I am sorry about the sadness and pessimism of these words but I felt the urge to say it... I won't do it again.

I completely understand what you're saying. The world can't afford to have one super power, regardless of who it might be. The problem is, the more you try to legalise the union with constitutions, rights, et al, the more you threaten the sacred ground of its members - their independence. You also bring into play the matter of equality - is everyone equal regardless of population, wealth, influence, et al? I don't know what the answer is, but I honestly can't see the current system working for the reasons addressed above. You can't - and never will - legislate human nature.

	04-11-2004 09:03									#427
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin In the meantime, the stronger power on the other side of the Atlantic (which does not care a dime about Europe) get the giggles each time it looks at those s*ds on this side of the Atlantic unable to ally themselves in order to build a better future for themselves.

I think you're wrong about the US of A not caring about Europe (current squabbles aside).
In the last century they intervened twice with enormous effort and at a great cost in American lives - Not to mention spending the last half of the century fortifying the portions they could against an outside threat.

Unlike the EU they had the 'great' advantage of coming together in actual conflict against an exterior threat (ie: Havak's mob) without the pressures of centuries of internal feuding to divide them.
Even then they had to fight a gruelling civil war less than a century later, coming back together stronger in the aftermath.

If the cold war had ever given rise to a shooting war then you might see a very much more united Europe than you do today.
Without such an impetus though, a United Europe has such a long history to overcome that it almost certainly won't do (to your satisfaction anyway) so during your lifetime.
That's not necessarily a bad thing either - After all the concept of a united EU has only been a political reality for, what, less than a decade?

My feeling is that the EU has too many unrealistic expectations - not in the sense that they will ever be a true united entity but in the sense of the timeframe it'll take for this to occur.

Far better to be thankful for the lack of an 'outside impetus' and a much longer unification process IMHO.

	04-11-2004 14:45									#428
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quote: I'm all for installing Howard as President. The words President and assassination have an historical link.

There is one consequence of events in the US not yet fully appreciated here – it has made it even easier for Tony and his pseudo-Labour party to win a third term next year. Bush will not work with Howard (he won’t even speak to him) and whilst in France that might work for him here I suspect it will work against.

quote: I wonder how the US military would cope with a polar bear insurgency.

The Intelligence services would write a report citing the potential for Weapons of Mass Seal Destruction before the military went in eliminating the Polar bear Politburo. Twelve months later they would admit there were no WMSD but that the war was right anyway – and by the way US Seal Fat Industries profits are up 400%.

Blair has turned the security services here into political PR tools – I have no reason to doubt his US colleagues have done the same.

quote: Petty national self interests are indeed the scourge of Europe

I will remind you of that the next time French fishermen blockade ports, French farmers burn sheep and French governments impose illegal bans on Beef imports.

quote: On the contrary, an European state is seen as a threat to national self determination, to national independence and so on...

Which is exactly what a European state is. This ‘Union’ concept was brought in by stealth and even as a Labour supporter I want no part of it.

I can see why countries like Ireland, Portugal, Poland et al are pro-European – the former has been transformed in the last fifteen years by EU money. Trouble is that was partly my money – and would have been better spent in the UK.

quote: If they are not they should say it clearly and quit an organization they will beg to return to in the following years.

Quit? Certainly. Beg to return? Brits? Beg to the Germans and French – not until it snows in Hell.

We are fine anyway – being the 51st state makes us the lapdog to the big dog.

quote: You can't - and never will - legislate human nature.

You can’t tell Brits what to do either. Unless you are a Brit. Or a Yank.

quote: Unlike the EU they had the 'great' advantage of coming together in actual conflict against an exterior threat

Interesting take on a war of treason. You can read history books on that war from both sides – and the ones by UK historians have the advantage of not trying to Cannonise certain individuals totally regardless of the facts.

Look at history with a critical eye – and don’t just accept what the big dog of today now says.

Having said that some French histories of Waterloo are worth reading too – did you know Napoleon lost because his piles played up on the day?

And without any deep knowledge of US politics I think you are dreaming if you think the US states are ‘together’ on anything much at all domestically. Only the largest of external matters - or internal threats - produce a ‘United States’. That’s what a Federal system is like.

quote: Even then they had to fight a gruelling civil war less than a century later, coming back together stronger in the aftermath.

See my point above – the war fought ‘to end slavery’ according to revisionist history. Did it end in 1865? The Civil war was all about power and vested interests – as most wars are.

The sacrifices the US made for the UK in both world wars is not belittled by me in any way – without them we would either have been defeated or forced to ally with the devil - and Marshall aid saved this country from quite literally starving in the late 40s – but it was a bitter pill for the UK to find itself bankrupt and struggling post WWII whilst US money rebuilt Japan and Germany entirely and laid the foundations for them to be economic powers larger than us. Who won that war – and who lost?

But ultimately get this – Scotland should beat the Wallabies this coming Saturday do you think? It’s a rugger thread after all.

	04-11-2004 16:51									#429
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quote: Originally posted by Havak But ultimately get this – Scotland should beat the Wallabies this coming Saturday do you think? It’s a rugger thread after all.

Ah yes, but we need something to fill in the time between matches. Poor David Lyons. A couple of weeks after he's voted last season's Wallaby Player Of The Year - by the players - he can't make the team against Scotland. He started last season brilliantly and gradually tapered off, unfortunately. Because the votes were awarded post-match, he built up a lead that no one could peg back. He had a pretty average S12 season. John Roe played spectacularly off the bench in a couple of the Tri Nations matches, so we'll see how he goes starting. Also nice, finally, to see Matt Rogers and Elton Flatley getting back into action off the bench.

	04-11-2004 17:50									#430
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So what we are saying here is...Scotland by 15?

	04-11-2004 18:34									#431
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I will remind you of that the next time French fishermen blockade ports, French farmers burn sheep and French governments impose illegal bans on Beef imports.

This is what I said: petty national self interests...

quote: Which is exactly what a European state is. This ‘Union’ concept was brought in by stealth and even as a Labour supporter I want no part of it.

As far as I am concerned we should create a federal state, a political organization that is able to guarantee the rights of its member states. Hopeless...

quote: I can see why countries like Ireland, Portugal, Poland et al are pro-European – the former has been transformed in the last fifteen years by EU money. Trouble is that was partly my money – and would have been better spent in the UK.

So what? As soon as we are talking about the EU, the subject is reduced to money, money, money and money. As if the financial issue were the only drive of the European experience. Though it is an important matter this is not the main objective, you should see the money spent on the development of some countries as an investment that will benefit all of Europe in the future.

quote: Quit? Certainly. Beg to return? Brits? Beg to the Germans and French – not until it snows in Hell.

As far as I remember there is a preceding coming back from the earlier days of the first European Communities.

quote: We are fine anyway – being the 51st state makes us the lapdog to the big dog.

Half in the EU, half in the USA, not really in both, there is indeed a choice the United Kingdoms will have to make one day.

quote: You can’t tell Brits what to do either. Unless you are a Brit. Or a Yank.

This is not only true for the Brits.

quote: Look at history with a critical eye – and don’t just accept what the big dog of today now says.

The external threats already exist, will we wait until it is too late?

	04-11-2004 19:52									#432
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I see ole W has won re-election. Can't say I'm particularly overjoyed, but I think he was the (slightly) lesser of two evils.

	05-11-2004 02:38									#433
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quote: Originally posted by Havak So what we are saying here is...Scotland by 15?

There he goes again, exploiting the same faultless rugby nouse he employs when analysing Leicester matches.

	05-11-2004 02:41									#434
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I see ole W has won re-election.

Did he? I hadn't noticed.

What's truly scary is that the same sort of evangelical christian fundamentalism is on the rise here. They won a federal Senate seat in the recent election.

	05-11-2004 02:50									#435
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Who? The Fundimentalist Evangelical Christian Party?

	05-11-2004 03:30									#436
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Their official title is Family First, espousing "family values", but they're essentially funded by Australia's biggest evangelical christian church. One of their Senate candidates, in South Australia, rather gave the game away by publicly declaring (quite seriously) that lesbians should be burned at the stake. They're not that far away from the more extreme evangelical fundamentalists over there.

	05-11-2004 05:52									#437
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Interesting take on a war of treason. You can read history books on that war from both sides – and the ones by UK historians have the advantage of not trying to Cannonise certain individuals totally regardless of the facts. Look at history with a critical eye – and don’t just accept what the big dog of today now says.

That misunderstanding thing again I'm afraid.
My post wasn't intended to judge either side in any way whatsoever. I'm sorry if it seemed to do so. I used the phrase 'exterior threat' solely in the geographical sense and the colonies banded together at the time solely because they were fighting a common enemy.

As it happens I do tend to believe they were in the right simply because their demands regarding the whole taxation/representation thing (everything else aside) weren't that unreasonable, but that's by the wayside and has no place in any attempted analysis.

[I would also like to point out that in my EU2 AAR as glorious Mother England (and later Mother British Empire) I did no such unsociable thing as crushing the colonies - I let them have their little revolt risk and lived with the reduced taxation revenues until they gave it up and rejoined the Empire as loyal subjects. Rule Britannia! ]

quote: And without any deep knowledge of US politics I think you are dreaming if you think the US states are ‘together’ on anything much at all domestically. Only the largest of external matters - or internal threats - produce a ‘United States’. That’s what a Federal system is like.

True enough regarding the individual states but my point is that they already have a true union with a centralised federal government.
It was the necessity for this union in their revolution that allowed such a federal government to form - were they still separate states today then I have no doubt that there wouldn't be nearly the same pressure to force them together.
Once you have such a federal government with real power it isn't quite so easy to get rid of - should the urge arise.

quote: See my point above – the war fought ‘to end slavery’ according to revisionist history. Did it end in 1865? The Civil war was all about power and vested interests – as most wars are.

The war ended. The reasons behind it didn't go away anywhere near quite as quickly. They never do. I don't think the US civil war was any different in that respect.
Regarding the secessionist movement though - Military conquest (and a recently demonstrated will and ability to see it through) can often be a pretty good dampener.

quote: The sacrifices the US made for the UK in both world wars is not belittled by me in any way – without them we would either have been defeated or forced to ally with the devil - and Marshall aid saved this country from quite literally starving in the late 40s – but it was a bitter pill for the UK to find itself bankrupt and struggling post WWII whilst US money rebuilt Japan and Germany entirely and laid the foundations for them to be economic powers larger than us. Who won that war – and who lost?

Who was it who said that the only thing worse than winning a war is losing one?
Ultimately though Germany/Japan were in far worse shape than the UK at the end of the war, and what with the new cold war starting and Germany/Japan set to become the new front line it was somewhat understandable ...

quote: But ultimately get this – Scotland should beat the Wallabies this coming Saturday do you think? It’s a rugger thread after all.

I'd like to hear a projected weather forecast before making predictions.

	05-11-2004 06:29									#438
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon I'd like to hear a projected weather forecast before making predictions.

They're playing in Scotland. Any sleet falling at less than 700kph and anything warmer than - 76 C will be a bonus. Oh, and it's Scotland's, um, B team. Their, um, A players have been prevented from playing by their English clubs - Stoke On Trent Amateurs, and the like. So, if everything goes as I expect, the Wallabies should lose 0-3.

	05-11-2004 08:22									#439
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Only the largest of external matters - or internal threats - produce a ‘United States’. That’s what a Federal system is like.

Allow me to jump in here for a moment...

Yes, the states have a dencent amount of differences, and are governed differently to an extent, but I think your statement is far too black and white. Federal law usually ends up trumping state law when the two conflict.

But having abstained from reading the rest of your conversation or post I may have taken your quote totally out of context.

	05-11-2004 08:28									#440
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Their official title is Family First, espousing "family values", but they're essentially funded by Australia's biggest evangelical christian church. One of their Senate candidates, in South Australia, rather gave the game away by publicly declaring (quite seriously) that lesbians should be burned at the stake. They're not that far away from the more extreme evangelical fundamentalists over there.

Well I wouldn't put Bushie in that boat just yet. Also, having had a lot of personal experience with Christian fundies I can tell you that that system of beliefs is far from being "on the rise" over here.

	06-11-2004 00:30									#441
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quote: They're playing in Scotland. Any sleet falling at less than 700kph and anything warmer than - 76 C will be a bonus. Oh, and it's Scotland's, um, B team. Their, um, A players have been prevented from playing by their English clubs - Stoke On Trent Amateurs, and the like. So, if everything goes as I expect, the Wallabies should lose 0-3.

Seriously, Scotland still has a national team?

	06-11-2004 01:53									#442
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Well I wouldn't put Bushie in that boat just yet. Also, having had a lot of personal experience with Christian fundies I can tell you that that system of beliefs is far from being "on the rise" over here.

As far as I have understood, the big US cities seem to be rather immune to this curious mental illness. Many journalists and specialists also pointed at the fact that there would be a neat difference between the city based electorate (rather pro-Kerry) and the rural electorate that would be closer to the values defended by Bush and co.

	06-11-2004 04:03									#443
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Seriously, Scotland still has a national team?

There's a rumor circulating to that effect. Although it should probably be called North Australia - most of the coaching staff and a good handful of the players are refugees from this Arse-End Of The World.

	07-11-2004 03:19									#444
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Wallabies 31 -d- Scotland 14

With a 3am kick-off, I had to tape the match and haven't seen it yet. Won't get a chance till tonight. Damn deadlines! Reports seem to indicate a fine Wallaby first half followed, unfortunately predictably, by a slack second half. Ironic, given that only yesterday Eddie was arguing that the Wallabies have a history of only playing 40 minutes of good rugby against weaker oppo. I look forward to watching the tape and being infuriated.

Boks -v- Wales sounds like it was an interesting match.

	07-11-2004 09:18									#445
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Stade Toulousain 32 - Stade Français CASG 16

Very good game with a great first half from the Toulousains, the second half was less brilliant though the Stade Toulousain managed to score two more tries that gives them the prized bonus point.

Without any doubt the best game I have seen since the beginning of the season.

	07-11-2004 13:03									#446
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I'm very pleased for you! My VCR didn't work! I'll have to wait for a replay of the Scotland match! It's all your fault!

	07-11-2004 13:20									#447
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I got to see a few tries of Toulouse. Tamerlin, who's that center who scored a nice try getting all arounf and through the Parisian defense?

	07-11-2004 21:08									#448
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The Wallabies were awful in the second half Finbar so I suggest you only watch the first 40.

Excepting that one of the Scotland tries was scored by a lad I toured with when he was a Colt. Very pleased for the lad.

Back in work Tuesday at which point I will respond to everyone else but had to pop by to say

Tigers 28 - Glaws 13

And Spreadbury had to play 48 mins in the second half to let Glaws score the try that gave them fake respectablity.

And lock Jaw had numerous stitches to his forehead after getting a shoeing - the usual good tempered clash between Tigers and the Tractor boys.

	07-11-2004 22:08									#449
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I got to see a few tries of Toulouse. Tamerlin, who's that center who scored a nice try getting all arounf and through the Parisian defense?

As far as I remember it must be Florian Fritz...

	08-11-2004 05:01									#450
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quote: Originally posted by finbar It's all your fault!

It's so nice to see that phrase in use when, just for once, I'm not the recipient.