01-09-2004 20:39									#1
	Diplomatic contact with the Data Angels Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We made contact with the Data Angels on our turn.

As planned, our spore launcher on the western continent popped the pod next to it. It fell through a dimensional gate, moving it about 5 tiles north. It proceeded to move through fungus, finding an Angel city on its last move.

The turn 2133 is not yet fully played, so there is still time to influence it, based on this.

Note: the unity rover 1 tile west of where the pod was and 1 tile east of the mouth of the southern river is not visible here because it blinked when I took the screenshot, and I'm too lazy to fiddle with taking another right now.

Attachment: acdg3-gaia-2133a.gif
This has been downloaded 42 time(s).

	01-09-2004 21:07									#2
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Offer them treaty but no tech/map exchange!

	01-09-2004 21:24									#3
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It's possible they won't see our unit next turn since it's in fungus, and won't realize we've met, if we keep quiet. Just throwing this out as a possible course of action.

	02-09-2004 03:27									#4
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It's a nice unit to meet them with. Nobody is afraid of a SL....

We are ready. Establish contact.

	02-09-2004 03:34									#5
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You can copy-paste some of Illuminatus's message from the Diplo thread. The consensus is to offer treaty as far as I can tell. Let's do that, since we said we would already. During next turn we can think what to trade, if anything....

	02-09-2004 03:38									#6
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I went back to the turn and moved one unit one space, and found an Angel probe team. I moved our rover 1 tile west, back to the mouth of the river, and found a commando Angel probe team 1 tile further west. It might look pretty threatening to make contact like this in two places at once. We could use that to our advantage, of course. On the other hand, the rover is on the outskirts of Angel territory, so it's not near a city.

	02-09-2004 04:24									#7
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Killing that baby fungal tower looks good. It's sitting on a pod...So I suppose we should try to explore the Angels territory as much as possible, until they demand we leave. On the other hand, a timely retreat and tower-killling would bring peace and $$.

CT, we can't really expect to do a vote on what to do next. We've expected contact for a long time and have made preparations. The probe team will probe our rover if it wants, but I highly doubt that. Nothing to do about it anyways. Contact and turn. or Contact + offer Treaty and turn. There's naught else to do right now, correct?

	02-09-2004 10:18									#8
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I'd like to send a formal message along with the save when we make contact. Get things off on a good foot and such. It's better at this point, since we don't know who else is near us, to pursue a peaceful/neutral stance. This means withdrawing from Angel territory if they request us to do so.

Looking at Illuminatus' pre-recorded messages, we should send something along the lines of...

quote: This an automated broadcast for the Gaian Union. The message is being emitted on all frequencies and all of your members should receive it. We have encountered you faction and we wish to establish official diplomatic relations with you. We are a peaceful nation, dedicated to preservation of the environment, progress and growth. We have no ill intentions towards you and we look forward to cooperation with you. We appreciate your tendencies for freedom and free flow of information. You tendencies for a free society is much like our own, and your preferences for democratic system is also notable. However we are worried about your hacking tendencies and we warn you not to try to disrupt flow of information in Gaian Union. If we pool our resources we could create a hybrid block that would ensure prosperity of both of our peoples and would successfully stand firm to any opposition from other factions. We are interested in research cooperation and establishing trade routes. To further secure this prospect between our two factions, we propose that a treaty of peace be enacted soon. A strange reaction of a newly-discovered Unity Pod has sent a mindworm under Gaian control through what has been described as a dimensional gate. The worms reappeared on the physical plane inside Angel territory near the base Rock-Paper-Scissors. We ask your permission to peacefully explore Angel territory with this mindworm unit, and will withdraw if you request. We will appoint ambassador to your nation, and in the meantime, we ask you to direct all communication to us towards our Lord of Diplomacy Octavian X, and to Chairman of the High Council Lord Chaos Theory

In italics are two paragraphs I'm not entirely sure we should send at the moment. I do think there's concensus to ask for a treaty. But, as for the spore launcher, I think it's best that they hear about it from us rather than discovering it themselves. To pursue peaceful relations as I suggest, informing them of the launcher's presence and our intentions would be best, but I want to hear more from everybody else about that.

	02-09-2004 11:38									#9
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Yes please go ahead and send through channels to the Angels, if it hasn't yet been done. Agree that it's better to talk than be discovered!

	02-09-2004 15:09									#10
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Please keep this thread up to date!

And, Chaos Theory please make this thread "always on top" - this should be our primary thread regarding Data Angels!

Any responses from Angels should also be posted here,so we all can see

And Octavian X should appoint an ambassador soon!
Any takers of this title?
Goto Lordship of Diplomacy and let us know!

Last edited by binTravkin on 02-09-2004 at 15:14

	02-09-2004 15:13									#11
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EDIT: LOOK UPWARDS! (last post)

	02-09-2004 22:09									#12
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If it wasn't clear:

quote: IRC chat over #CGN (private) [18:42] Hi Drogue [18:42] Nice to see you back. [18:43] Can I ask sth about the ACDG? [18:43] According to threads in private forums, it seems we fulfilled the conditions for diplomatic contact with Angels [18:44] I would ask you to verify that, or explain when will we fulfill them if we aren't fulfilling them. [18:45] Also, could you post your answer in any of threads, I am temporarily banned for bounced off email message - I sent message to support, but neither Mark or Dan seem to be online [19:00] . [19:04] Ahh, you're unbanned now. And yep, youve met them in game, hence you can start diplo [19:04] sorry for the delay [19:04] no prob [19:04] thanks [19:05] I just wanted a verification before naythings is started [19:06] yeh, I can understand. Good luck!

So we can start diplomacy
I do not see record that anything has been sent or received. If needed, I can send the message to all Angel members, if we agree upon it. Also, thread stickied as per request of binTravkin.

	02-09-2004 22:11									#13
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I think sending the message to all Angels could be agreed,but only after we receive next turn - maybe it holds the answer to our diplomatical message..

	02-09-2004 23:37									#14
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I had sent the diplomatic message from Octavian X (non-italicized part) during 2133. I suppose I wasn't clear about that. I also offered and accepted a treaty, as a treaty seemed to be overwhelmingly supported. The response:

quote: The Data Angels greet warmly their fellow humans in the Gaian Union on this new world. The values you endorse in your message are mostly, if not all, in coherence with our own, so we do think a close cooperation between our factions is possible. To reassure you, The Angels stance towards the free flow of information is only implemented if dearly necessary as in cases where faction leaders flatly refuse to share information generously with their fellow kin. As a start we gladly accept your proposal of a close Treaty with us and start commerce, no doubt mutual research cooperation can be reached as well in the not so far future. We politely request that you withdraw your units from our territory and refrain from opening any starship Unity pods within our borders. Due to our current relations, the presence of your units in our territory causes difficulties in using our communication trails. Opening further starship Unity pods endangers our bases and non-military units in the field by exposing them to native planet life attacks. We have already noticed missing pod within our borders. In return we offer to respect Gaian territorial borders in the same way. Sincerely, Infotrader GeoModder

I assumed that finding two units and a city with our units would fulfill any reasonable requirements to start diplomacy.

	02-09-2004 23:45									#15
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We could offer to clean up both that fungal tower and the pod beneath it as we pull back from Angel territory, as a friendly way to pop yet another pod.

	03-09-2004 01:06									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory We could offer to clean up both that fungal tower and the pod beneath it as we pull back from Angel territory, as a friendly way to pop yet another pod.

Hehe, that is an idea. We could say we interpreted their message as be more careful when popping pods in our teritory.

	03-09-2004 02:37									#17
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Bah, what are they going to do, kill our Spore Launcher? They sure jumped on the pod issue right away I find it very tempting to just say sure to the treaty and then pop the tower/pod anyways. We'd get what, 30 ecs from the tower? That means something. We could leave the pod I suppose, but really, what would they do? I don't think they'd do anything.

I find their remarks a bit aloof and hostile. They are smiling and saying friendly things, but in a fearful/condescending way. They certainly see us as a threat, as well they should, but their proposal for peace is superficial from the tone... as in:

quote: To reassure you, The Angels stance towards the free flow of information is only implemented if dearly necessary as in cases where faction leaders flatly refuse to share information generously with their fellow kin.

What the heck is that? A threat on the very first communique? Hmm. That is either foolishness, overconfidence, or fear that we'll demand something unfair. It's not really friendly, is it. And then the bit about their poor missing unity pod....no suggestion that we could have made a mistake, or not known it was their territory. They assume we are belligerent. Good

This is all the more reason to take a good strong lead in our relations, most likely by being generous to a fault and honestly kind and considerate. Let them sweat it a little while we maintain a benevelent cast to our communications. This way, once they come to trust us, they will find their opening grumpiness a bit childish, which puts us at a nice advantage. The other option is to ignore their request r/e unity pods, but agree to the treaty, which will spark a nice fury to be sure.

The thing we shouldn't do is to react to their whininess. We shouldn't say 'But we didn't know it was your turf', 'Sorry about the Unity Pod, have a Spore Launcher', or in any other way engage in the backpedaling their message seems to ask of us. We must maintain some momentum in communications, and that means not stooping to reply to their ambiguity (in the info sharing bit), nor to their suggestion that we are purposely robbing them of pods (though we are, of course).

I vote for being kindly neighbors, and ones who treat the Angels with the respect they deserve (a lot on the surface, and none underneath). We shall take the lead in diplomatic relations, profiting our position by being kindly and straightforward, in some contrast to their whining opening. We couldn't have asked for a better start to relations, really.

-Smack

	03-09-2004 02:42									#18
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One question: Can we ask them to request the removal of our units, which will fly them magically back to our turf? This way we could retreat without wasting valuable foil time on shuttling around. Further, it's two more units to attack north with, should we go that route.

It's too bad we can't see a way around their little island. It would be nice to continue exploring westward...

	03-09-2004 02:54									#19
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So what I'm suggesting is changing our wording, in the future, from:

quote: This an automated broadcast for the Gaian Union. The message is being emitted on all frequencies and all of your members should receive it. We have encountered you faction and we wish to establish official diplomatic relations with you. We are a peaceful nation, dedicated to preservation of the environment, progress and growth. We have no ill intentions towards you and we look forward to cooperation with you.

to more like: "This an automated broadcast for the Gaian Union. We have encountered your faction and we wish to establish official diplomatic relations with you. We of the Gaian Union are dedicated to preservation of the environment, progress and growth and expect this will be compatible with your own goals. We look forward to cooperation with you in our new homeworld."

IE, a little less defensive and more benevelent. It's ambiguous, but added to that last sentance could be: "To this end we suggest a Treaty of Friendship, which will allow our two peoples to benefit fully from commerce, trade, and the peaceful prosperity this brings to all nations"....

	03-09-2004 03:07									#20
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If they request we withdraw our units in-game, the AI makes the decision for us whether to obey or not. There's no guarantee it would work, though we could still try it. It might also be forbidden by the game rules even if we request it, to prevent us from benefiting from the unit teleportation.

	03-09-2004 05:23									#21
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Illuminatus, wanna use your magical contacts to check that for us? Otherwise we might have to have our units sit in a corner for a very long time, if that's what the Angels want.

	03-09-2004 15:33									#22
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Magical contacts? You mean contact with leader of a lunar outpost with huge stockpile of planetbusting weapons?
No need, this is what the rules say: Demanding withdrawal to a human player through the menus rather than by negotiation is prohibited.
Am I the only one who reads them?

Anyway, we can request that they allow us to withdraw them north, exploring their way to the Yang and popping pods. Also, I need your opinion - I know that sometimes killing a mindworm on a pod triggers opening the pod - would killing the tower produce the same? This way, if we kill the tower and pop the pod we aren't really cheating them - infact we got rid of native life there for them . Also, when replying back we should mention withdrawing all three units (just to make them think where did they miss one). Note for diplomacy - lies always passes by with truth.
Also, I am afraid that our contact with Angels might be a public thing: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...658#post3264658 - I think that line about Spartans and Morgans was added later, as per edit post remark. Thus we can assume that both Spartans and Morgans now know we have made contact with Angels. A dangerous slip of information by binTravkin, we should be more careful in future - they might have requested us to keep relations with them a secret.

Last edited by Illuminatus on 03-09-2004 at 16:08

	03-09-2004 17:44									#23
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I am very sorry for this mistake, I was so tired yesterday that even didn't think what Im doing..

In case any trouble emerges from my mistake, you can use it as an answer to their not-so-polite 1st message - I too think that the message was somewhat "we see you, but we're not afraid of you, just move away from that ill-defended base & we'll show you hell!"

	03-09-2004 19:36									#24
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Doesn't matter much, but be slightly more careful. Now it is obvious we made contact with them. Perhaps we should act now like it is a public thing.

	03-09-2004 22:43									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Illuminatus No need, this is what the rules say: Demanding withdrawal to a human player through the menus rather than by negotiation is prohibited. Am I the only one who reads them?

Well there are three ways to demand withdrawal. One, the right-click menu of the comlinks. Two, the menus in actual communication, and three, by typing in some message like "Hey, out!". I was under the impression that #1 was illegal, but #2 or #3 were fine. That's what we need to check.

quote: Originally posted by Illuminatus I know that sometimes killing a mindworm on a pod triggers opening the pod - would killing the tower produce the same?

This only applies to old unpatched versions of Smac, unfortunately. It is a great bug

quote: Originally posted by Illuminatus Also, when replying back we should mention withdrawing all three units (just to make them think where did they miss one). Note for diplomacy - lies always passes by with truth.

I enjoy lying as much as the next diplomat, but there is no need to bring this up. By mentioning #s, we are asking them to take notice of our #s. They may have the means to do that, so why bother? Lets leave the # of units out of it, which will scare the piss out of them much more than by being specific. If they figure out that we only have 2 units they will think it a petty lie. Lets build their trust a little more.

	05-09-2004 15:04									#26
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In work

The Gaian Union is happy to cooperate with their brothers and sisters on our new home. The Treaty of Friendship we have signed demonstrates that we can both preserve Planet's native life and keep information free for all. Tragedy of Earth must not repeat ever again. We are also open to possible closer cooperation in future. 1) Cooperation in fields of technology sounds interesting, and we would like to hear more. 2) Infact, we are interested in secrets of Industrial Automation, which our scientist have not managed to unlock yet. Our Lordship of Progress is interested if you might be willing to trade this secrets with your Gaian brothers in exchange for compensation.

High Council has acknowledged your request and ordered all our exploration forces to start withdrawal to the extraction point which has been organised. Rest assured, we do not intend to endanger your bases with native life. [note: this doesnt necesary mean we do not intend to pop pod but they might interpret it this way] Lady Deirdre would also like to encourage you to seek ways to avoid disruption of native life, unless it is absolutely neccesary.

We believe we will appoint ambassadar to you within next planetary cycle, until then communication shall resume via current channels. Lordship of Diplomacy is also interested if we should maintain the policy of sending messages to Executive Infotrader, or will Angels appoint ambassador to our Gaian Union as well.

Lord Administrator Illuminatus

Italics - optional lines. We should at least explore possibility of trade for techs with Angels - if they trade IA with us before we finish research we can redirect our efforts.

	06-09-2004 05:47									#27
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Looking pretty good Illuminatus. Do we have any tech they do not have? Also, we are quite desparate for biogen/socpsych, which will greatly improve our production and expansion efforts.

I think we might just want to ignore the pod-popping request of theirs...you know, play stupid . Also, has anyone givin thought to requesting a teleport back home? Those units could be used to guard terraformers in the ruins, where they would appear (closest base), or is there a possibility for them to explore a little further?

	06-09-2004 12:55									#28
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quote: Originally posted by smacksim Looking pretty good Illuminatus. Do we have any tech they do not have? Also, we are quite desparate for biogen/socpsych, which will greatly improve our production and expansion efforts. I think we might just want to ignore the pod-popping request of theirs...you know, play stupid . Also, has anyone givin thought to requesting a teleport back home? Those units could be used to guard terraformers in the ruins, where they would appear (closest base), or is there a possibility for them to explore a little further?

They are running WEALTH for soem time - they have IA - if we could persuade them to give ti to us we could redirect our research to sth else. If we had a faster unit on east we could get Biogenetics from Lal/Zak or SocPsy from one of them.
I was thinking about proposing them they trade us IA, and we redirect research to ie Biogenetics - we give them small sum of credits that turn and Bio turn or two after that when we have researched it - result we gain IA and a tech faster, they gain a tech and some credits and we demonstrate successful cooperation.

	06-09-2004 13:01									#29
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BTW I don't see how could we request a teleport home - there is no option like that in the menu for negotiations (or so I think) and rules state: Demanding withdrawal to a human player through the menus rather than by negotiation is prohibited. I believe this exploit is forbidden.

	06-09-2004 13:21									#30
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That sounds reasonable r/e Biogenetics. It is in our interest to speed the Angels along as well. We will slaughter them latuer ....mwahahahah. Establishing trust with them seems especially important as you said a bunch of them were hard done by during the last ACDG.

I thought one could request withdraw in MP? I know about the auto-withdraw being forbidden, just thought it was a talking-diplo option.