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:) Smiley
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USCA, Berkeley
Feb 2001
time: 21:24
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quote:
Because Ossetia it's Caucasus and every person over 21 there have a gun, becuase of nearby Chechnya and South Ossetia. Some of their arms are legal, some I believe not, but it could be pretty legal to own hunting rifles. Some of those rifles are no less lethal than army rifles. For example, Saiga carabin is based on Kalashnikov assualt rifle, lesser magazine, no burst mode and other differences, but it's still just a modified AK, and it's still damn lethal. So people in Ossetia are pretty well armed. |
Good policy.  Next, they ought to start issuing nonlethal weapons such as mace, tasers, etc. to those without guns.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Spetsnaz
Serb, has there been any response or reprisal actions announced yet? |
Putin was in Beslan yestarday and ordered to close all borders of North Ossetia and to start search of d!cks who helped terrorists in preparation of this act. Also he said that main goal of this act was "to explode the Caucasus" and everyone who will fall into this provocation will be considered as terrorist's sympotyzer.
I've to explain what he meant. The peoples of Cucasus maintain a very long traditions of blood revenge or vindetta. In such cases they act in accordance with "an eye for an eye" principle. In accordance with thier traditions, relatives of the dead children should take arms and did with murders or their families the same thing what they did with thier families- kill.
As for me, it's absolutely clear that terrorists didn't plan to achieve any political goal by act. They've planned to kill their victims from the beggining. In 2002, in Moscow's theater the situation was absolutely different. First of all they demanded access to TV air, and made a clear (but still impossible) demands. They've forced relatives of the hostages to make an anti-war demostration. They were negotiating, I don't remeber exact number, but I believe about 100 hostages were released after negotiations. They allowed food, water and medicine, which means they planned to stay with the hostages for a long time. And more probably they planned to escape the theather and Moscow via buses using hostages as alive shields (like it happened before), since all of them, except their leader were in masks to hide their faces, which means that they really did not want to die there.
Non of that happened this time. This time they didn't make clear demands, no TV, no serious attempts of negotiations, only one person they demanded for talks, had entered the building. Former hostages said that they didn't hide their faces and told them that everyone including themselves will die there.
As for me, they planned to kill the children, becuase relatives of the children will came to Chechnya to kill Chechens, Chechens in their turn will came to Ossetia to kill Ossetins and so on. Their plan was to start the circle of violence.
Yestarday Putin adressed to the nation. Sept 6 and 7 declared as days of mourning.
In brief he said- we admit we sucked. Were were unable to protect our children. Were were unready for new chaleges we've faced. Corruption spreaded among our law-enforcement institutions.
It's not an attack against president or government, it's attack against our country. We have a direct intervention of international terrorism agaist Russia.
It's a limit brake and something needs to be done.
1) As soon as possible we'll prepare new complex of measures to unify the country.
2) New system of coordination of forces and institutions which supervise situation in the Caucasus should be created.
3) New efficient anti-crisis system of control, including absolutely new aproaches to activity of law-enforcement institutions should be created.
All measures should be done in accordance with consitution of Russian Federation.
Also parliament representatives from Cucasus republics had been called to Moscow. I guess will see some legislation changes soon.
As for me, among other measures I would restore death penalty in Russia for any form of terrorism. A f*cker who shot at back of running mother who is carrying her child in hands, deserves the most painfull death.
Last edited by Serb on 07-09-2004 at 19:20
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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I bet killed terrorists had no relatives or their relatives live in foreign countries, somewhere in hidden terrorists camps under protection of brothers in arms of their falled comrades. I doubt any Chechen terrorist of this gang could left his relatives in Chechnya, since he perfectly knew traditions of this region. I'm pretty sure relatives of terrorists recieved $$$ and protection.
Also, knowledge about vindetta traditions also, to some degree explains why there were so many foreigners in this band. ****s who planned this act, probably had problems recruiting volunteeres from Caucasus for such crime.
So it would be pretty hard to find families of those terrorists, I think and people of killed children could start to express their rage upon all Chechens. That's what Putin afraids and that's what terrorists wanted, I guess.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
Just a questoin and I may be called a terrorist sympathizer but oh well. How much of a response would be too much for some of you all. I mean when the US invaded Afghanistan there was a goverment there to direct our attacks against, but in Chechnya the goverment is supported by Moscow, so the question becomes where does the revenge go? Is this a case where any chechen will do or are there actual targets in mind here. And if there are targets in mind, why haven't they been hit before now? |
Revenge should go to terrorists, not to foreign country (unless we'll find out that this attack have been planned by government of foreign country, which is very unlikely) or part of Russia or any Russian citizens, except when it will be proven that this citizen is terrorist. We should find the f*ckers who planned this attack and eliminate them. We should find all such ****ers, all vahhabites and eliminate them. Terrorism should be stopped and invasion of foreign country, unless this country supports vahhabites and terrorism wouldn't help to stop terrorism. We should stop this Jihad worldwide either this Jihad would stop us.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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quote:
And if there are targets in mind, why haven't they been hit before now? |
Why you ask?
Because they have a very powerfull friends. And thier friends are you guys. By "you" I mean the West. You have double standards, everyone who threatens you - terrorists, everyone who threatens Russia - honorable, oppressed freedom fighters. When we ask you to extrodite some of those f*ckers back to Russia for the court, you say- they have a political assylium here. That's how it was in London just after 2002 Moscow theater takeover, with Chechen emissar- Zakaev. He was among the leaders of f*cks who invaded Dagestan in 1999. He personally cut throats (it's not methapor we have a video tape with him cutting throats of captured Dagestan policemen). It's not only a terrorism, it's a criminal offence- murder of policemen.
What did you guys done?
Brits gave him political assylium, becuse from their point of view he participated in civil war.
From British law point of view, any f*cker could invade Russian territory such as Dagestan, cut cop's throats there and still be innocent since such attack against Russia called a civil war in UK.
Last edited by Serb on 05-09-2004 at 12:15
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Yes, Serb, Russia is a virgin knight on a white horse, Chechenians are the dragon and the West is an ugly witch that laughs maliciously all the time and summons demons |
Speaking in your terms,- NO. In no way Russia is virgin. And since Russia in Russian language assume she-type noun, I hardly see how she could be a knight.
Russia is amazon, old and wounded amazon who saw many battles. She lives in old but very big house and in one of the corners of this house settled snakes. Those snakes bite she, kill her children time after time and want this house for themselves, becuse snakes need this house too, for their own reasons, they want to turn this house into huge snake's nest, to invite other snakes from outside and live there how they want, to make it snake's paradise. The snakes from outside also crreping in that house to help snakes inside to defeat that old amazon. The snake are religious extremists and terrorists, some domestic, some foreign, but they are still snakes.
The West is indeed a bunch of witches with their own agendas, who indeed summon demons and even sometimes protect those snakes and feed them. They really do not need them both- the snakes and the amazon, they will be happy if they'll kill each other, but they do not understand that if snakes would kill amazon and start to reproduce in huge nest, then they will be next, and some snakes already attacked some of them.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
I don't remember much more than lip service being said as Russia bombed Grozny. Made the evening news a few times. That was about it here in the US.
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Oh come on, I read western news sites, and most of them portray situation like- small, but proud people being opressed by evil imperialist Russians. I don't remeber your reaction to invasion of this proud and honarable people to Dagestan.
quote:
Do you see no reason for Chechens to hate Russia? |
Sure I see. Chechens and Russians are enemies and always were enemies. It started centuries ago. We are too different, our cultures are different, our morales are different, our religions are different, we are simply plain different.
Most of you believes that Russians are the worsest ****ers ever walked this planef and can't imagine that someone could be worse. I've never made statements like this before, because it's pretty stupid to offence entire people, but Chechens have a very long history of violence. They were damn cruel and violent since the beggining. I can't remember any other culture where pillage and banditism considers as proper if not the only deed for an adult man. It comes from location I guess, they lived high in the mountains and pillaged nearby volleys since the beggining of time. And after such raids there were no survivors usually, they killed everyone. It was their way of life for many centuries, which resulted in their traditions and their neighbours sayings like "if your horse was stolen- find Chechen". Many of you believe that Chechen are nice people in white robes, who never hurt anyone and it's Russian who always were a bloody butchers and criminals. Russians in no way are inoccent shining knights on white horses as Heresson says, but Chechens aren't angels too and always loved to cut the throats of their prisoners, and were slave dealers for centuries. Today Chechen mafia has the same reputation in Russia as Russian mafia abroad (and since you call Russians everyone from former SU, you may not know that some of the guys whom you call Russians are in fact people from Caucasus, including Chechen).
So in no way they are inoccent, opressed angels. They have a brutal and violent history.
Russians came there at the first place, becuse their communication lines to Georgia, which entered Russian Empire by its own will, seeking protection from the Ottomans, was constantly under attacks of Chechen raiders- Abreks. They simply pillaged and razed any settlements in volleys, how they did for centuries and sold slaves to Turkey. There were no other reasons to fight them, they had nothing of value for Russsian Empire, NOTHING, and empires usually do not conquer out of entertaining, becuse war it's a costly thing.
Chechens are good fighters, very good, because fighting was always a major part of thier way of life, but Russians knows how to fight too and so we fought for centuries, and to be honest now both sides hate each other and have thousands of reasons for that and not a single reason to like each other.
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I mean I can see why different groups of muslims would hate the US. |
For Osama and his gang of mother****ers Russia is same devil as USA and he never disguised that.
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Doesn't stop me from knowing that they need to be dealt with but I'm curious if you see if you see the source of their hatred. |
the source of their heatred- becuse their Russians against whom they fought for centuries and who did many bad things to them. The source of Russian hatred- becuase they are Chechens whom their fought for centuries and who did many bad things to them.
quote:
And I know this is a tramatic time and I'm not trying to get anyone upset. I'm just asking for a little calm before Russia goes off blowing the **** out of everyone. It's something that American leaders should have taken more time to do. |
I don't think Russia will turn Chechnya into glass. It would be pretty stupid, just a punishing raid. And punishing raids do not solve the problem, they create new problems. What we need is to increase our security inside the country, perhaps by price of some freedoms, anyhow. I don't care how, but this shouldn't happen again. Also we had to find all those f*ckers and kill them, all terrorists, all their camps, no matter where, if will find some camps in Quatar or anywhere else we should press their government to bomb their camps to the ground or Russian forces under UN banner would do it. I guess we should go to UN with new kind of global anti-terrorist threaty. All countries should destroy terrorist camps on their territory, otherwise terrorism will never die. Those vahhabites would migrate from one country to another and still attack over and over again.
quote:
Of course I'll just be called a terrorist supporter. |
And I of course just be called an imperial Russian nazi, who says that Chechen people are evil and Russians are good.
Whatever, I just said what I think about history of Russian-Chechen relationships. I've a friend who was there during first Chechen war and I read letters of Russian refugies who fleed from Chechnya before first Chechen war, because they didn't like how Chechens decorade thier fences by Russian entrails, rap and then immidiently kill Russian woman and so on. I can assure that those guys could tell you much more about why our people don't like each other, but 90% of their speech would be pure swear and curse.
Last edited by Serb on 05-09-2004 at 15:47
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Pyrodrew
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quote:
Russian Town Mourns As Putin Vows Fight
17 minutes ago
By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer
BESLAN, Russia - Wails of mourning echoed through the streets of this southern Russian town on Sunday, and the region's top police officer reportedly resigned in the wake of the school hostage-taking that left more than 350 people dead — nearly half of them children.
A shaken President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) went on national television Saturday to make a rare and candid admission of Russian weakness in the face of an "all-out war" by terrorists. He said Russians must mobilize against terrorism and promised wide-ranging reforms to toughen security forces and purge corruption.
"We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten," he said in a speech aimed at addressing the grief, shock and anger felt by many after a string of terrorist attacks that have killed some 450 people in the past two weeks, apparently in connection with the war in Chechnya (news - web sites).
Dozens of men dug graves in a football field-sized tract next to the Beslan cemetery on Sunday morning, while surveyors across the road marked out new plots with wooden stakes and string. Coffin lids stood outside the entrances to apartment buildings, along with wooden planks bearing the names of victims who were to be buried in funerals beginning later Sunday. Wailing could be heard from courtyards where families were preparing ritual meals.
Some 260 people were reported missing after the three-day hostage crisis, which ended in a bloody wave of explosions and gunfire Friday when militants set off bombs rigged in the school gymnasium and commandos stormed the building. Russian media speculated that some of the missing could be among the wounded who were brought to various hospitals in the southern Russian region.
Outside the shattered gymnasium on Sunday, Svetlana Debloyeva, 42, clutched a picture of her 11-year-old son Zaur, one of those unaccounted for.
"I lost my boy," she cried as she approached the building, where she had been squeezed in among the more than 1,100 hostages.
Regional Emergency Situations Minister Boris Dzgoyev said Sunday that 326 people, including 159 children, were killed — three of them children who died overnight. More than 540 people were wounded — mostly children. Medical officials said 423 people remained hospitalized Sunday, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported.
Dzgoyev also said 35 attackers — heavily-armed and explosive-laden men and women who were reportedly demanding independence for Chechnya — were killed in 10 hours of battles that shook the area around the school with gunfire and explosions. Including the militants, 361 people died in the tragedy.
"What happened was a terrorist act that was inhuman and unprecedented in its cruelty," Putin said in his televised speech. "It is a challenge not to the president, the parliament and the government but a challenge to all of Russia, to all of our people. It is an attack on our nation."
Putin took a defiant tone, acknowledging Russia's weaknesses, but blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union, foreign foes seeking to tear apart Russia and on corrupt officials. He said Russians could no longer live "carefree" and must all confront terrorism.
Measures would be taken, Putin promised, to overhaul the law enforcement organs, which he acknowledged had been infected by corruption, and tighten borders.
"We are obliged to create a much more effective security system and to demand action from our law enforcement organs that would be adequate to the level and scale of the new threats," he said.
North Ossetian Interior Minister Kazbek Dzantiyev submitted his resignation on Sunday morning, ITAR-Tass and the Interfax news agency reported.
"After what happened in Beslan, I don't have the right to occupy this post as an officer and as a man," ITAR-Tass quoted him as saying.
ITAR-Tass quoted an unidentified intelligence official as saying that the school assault was financed by Abu Omar As-Seyf, an Arab who allegedly represents al-Qaida in Chechnya, and directed by Chechen rebel leader Shamil Basayev.
The militants seized the school Wednesday on what was to have been the first day of class after summer vacation. Children, along with parents who had been dropping them off, were herded into the gym, which the militants quickly wired with explosives.
One survivor, Sima Albegova, told the Kommersant newspaper she asked the militants why the captives were taken. "Because you vote for your Putin," she quoted one as saying.
Another freed hostage said a militant told her, "If Putin doesn't withdraw forces from Chechnya and doesn't free our arrested brothers, we'll blow everything up," according to the Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper.
Russian officials said the bloodshed began when explosions were apparently set off by the militants — possibly by accident — as emergency workers entered the school courtyard to collect the bodies of hostages killed in the initial raid Wednesday.
Hostages fled during the blasts, and the militants opened fire on them, prompting security forces to return fire and commandos to move in, officials said.
The explosions tore through the roof of the gymnasium, sending wreckage down on hostages, killing many. Many survivors emerged naked covered in ashes and soot, their feet bloody from jumping barefoot out of broken windows to escape. |
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...id=518&ncid=716
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by muxec
Even if you want freedom for Chechens think about Chechen females now they are free citizen but under muslim dictature they will be slaves. Have pitty on them.
Many ethnic Turkmens in Turkmenistan and many of them females say that Russia would better not give independency to Turkmenistan. |
What always amuse me about western approach is that they saying that removal of Saddam was a good thing, becuase Iraqis have more freedom now. Oppression of Iraqis pale in coparison oppression of Chechens by vahhabites 1996-1999. It's absolutely the same kind of oppression what Afghani had under the Taliban regime. Those two regimes are twins brothers. After 1996 truce, Chechens were free to do whatever they wanted. They had all atributes of independent state- there were no foreign (in this case Russian) soldiers and cops on their territory, they had their own flag, hymn, their own army, thier own KGB, their own embassies worldwide, they were absolutely out of Kremlin's control, Russian constitution doesn't worked there. As Dr. Strangelove already mentioned, they introduced their own medieval Sharia laws with such pretty things as death penalty for homosexuality, death penalty for marital infidelity (gulty women beaten to death with stones), they cut off hands of thieves and many other beautyfull things. Some people here said about secularized Chechenya? Hmmm... surelly there are not aware that only one religion was allowed both in Taliban and independet Chechen state and that Christians and Orthodox muslims who did support vahhabism quite often were publicly executed - burned alive or simply shot on squares of both in Afghanistan and Chechnya. In 1996-1999 vahhabites installed a reign of terror in Chechnya, with such fine atributes as slavery, and tortues. Saddam in comparison with those guys a old, good Santa. So when someone says that removal of Saddam was a good thing, becuase it brough more freedom for Iraqis, while at the same time says that Russians returned to chechnya in 1999 after invasion of Dagestan to oppress Chechens, I laugh. It's a perfect example of double standards. Some Chechens welcomed Russian troops, way better and imidiently joined them in fight agaist vahhabites, way faster, than Iraqis meet and joined American troops in Iraq.
They former president Kadyrov, who was killed at May 9, this year, and who was a spiritual leader of all Chechens during first war, with his troops joined Russian forces when they entered his villge after a single shot. Chechens live in villages, and one such village it's a big community, like a big family, a clan. His clan joined Russians, despite they were death enemies just three years ago, becuse his people didn't accepted vahhabism and remain muslims, just like their spiritual leader.
Chechens were de-facto independent for three years, but this independence was way worse than 'Russian oppression". And when somebody says that results of referendum where Chechens decided to stay in Russian Federation, elected their president and approved their constitution were flawed, I doubt that, becuase I think that Chechens really had no choice, but vote for that, becuase they experienced what is alternative- the medieval reign of vahhabites is waaaaaaaay worse.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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quote:
Putin took a defiant tone, acknowledging Russia's weaknesses, but blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union, foreign foes seeking to tear apart Russia and on corrupt officials. |
How nice, so he mentioned Soviet Union once in his speech, now it calls- "but blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union, "
Do you want to know what exactly he said?
He said: "Но, несмотря на все трудности, нам удалось сохранить ядро этого гиганта - Советского Союза. И мы назвали новую страну Российской Федерацией."
It means- "despite difficulties we were able to save main body of this giant (the Soviet Union) and we called new country the Russian Federation.
That's all. And how the hell it could be "blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union"?
Western journalists, nice work 
Full text of his speech for guys who can read our monkey language.
http://www.rambler.ru/db/news/msg.h...083&mid=5003054
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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Minister of internal affairs of North Ossetia, general-leutenant Kazbek Dzantiev made written statement about retirement. He said - as an officer, I can't occupy my post after this tragedy.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by muxec
Serb, and Putin insulted western world with his speech
Did he mean that Scandinavians are evil?
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"в одночасье оказалась не защищенной ни с Запада, ни с Востока."
Scandinavians? WTF? Where is a single word about Scandinavians?
He said plain fact- after collapse of the USSR old system of frontier security was destroyed, becuase frontiers changed, both western frontiers and eastern frontiers.
It's plain fact. And how the hell it's related to Scandinavians?
quote:
And USA is also a threat to Russia, right? |
Where is a single word about USA again?
He said - some countries help them, since they believe that Russia as great nuclear power is still threaten them and terrorism in this case is just a tool to weaken Russia.
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It's a domestic conflict, right? And 10 arab mercenaries are in fact chechens, not Syrians, not Saudis and indeed not Palestinians. |
Where do you get the information about FSB lying about ten Arabs among terrorists? Who told you they are Chechens, not Arabs?
Anyhow, how can you explain BLACK terrorist?. Chechens have a black hair, not a black skin.
quote:
Anyway the translation of his speech was not excellent but good enough |
При желании- каждый слышит то, что он хотел бы услышать и пересказывает так как хочет.
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muxec
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Mingapulco
Jul 2002
time: 07:24
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He said plain fact- after collapse of the USSR old system of frontier security was destroyed, becuase frontiers changed, both western frontiers and eastern frontiers. |
Western frontier of Russia is Finland, i guess
quote:
Where do you get the information about FSB lying about ten Arabs among terrorists? Who told you they are Chechens, not Arabs?
Anyhow, how can you explain BLACK terrorist?. Chechens have a black hair, not a black skin. |
Ты долбак, это был риторический вопрос, какого чёрта Путин говорит о внутренних разборках с арабскими террористами?
quote:
Пошел на хуй. Хвали свою новую родину. |
Yes I do. And i do not need to set my waypoints to **** for that.
2All but Serb:
You know, when I lived in Kharkow (curently Ukraine) I considered myself as Russian, and my friends who are ethnic Ukrainians considered theirselves as Russians. And if you ask people there, Ukrainian people in Eastern Ukraine, what's Russian language they'll say it's Dostoevsky's language. But if you ask the same question in Western Ukraine you'll hear that Russian is Stalin's language.
Religion<>Ideology<>Nationality<>Culture
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by muxec
Western frontier of Russia is Finland, i guess
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You guess, my ass. Look at map, Finalnd is not the only country who shares frontier with Russia from the west.
And after collapse of the USSR, western frontiers have been changed due to creation of new countries, thus old security system have been destroyed.
That's what he said. And it's a plain fact.
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Ты долбак, это был риторический вопрос, какого чёрта Путин говорит о внутренних разборках с арабскими террористами? |
"Мы живем в условиях обострившихся внутренних конфликтов и межэтнических противоречий, которые раньше жестко подавлялись господствующей идеологией"
Это была очередная констатация факта, долбак. Причем здесь арабские террористы?
quote:
Yes I do. And i do not need to set my waypoints to **** for that. |
Good for you, then leave my Motherland alone.
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05-09-2004 10:56
@Serb
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