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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:24
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But you must admit that when captured Chechnya was a barbarian state, now it has clean water supplies and electricity.
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I'm no specialist on the subject, but I'm not sure if they were a "barbarian" state before I chechenian war. Also, if they lacked electricity, perhaps Russia cut it off. Anyway, it was a state in statu nascendi, and after great distructions caused by war against Russians. No-one know how would it look without it, and several years later without it.
Also, it's not only Chechenia that has or had big problems in the 90s. Russia had. Armenia had. Georgia had. And what?
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Israel offered education and healthcare to palestinians but they refused.
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Would You accept it on their place?
Anyway, just because some state or region is not rich, doesn't mean it can not be independant.
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Before USSR attacked Afganistan it was an anarchy state.
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It still is
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Socialism is not good but it's certainly better than anarchy.
And USA armed the gangs including so that they fought "The Red Plague" and later these gangs killed Afgani civilians with american weapons.
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I'm not saying that USA did a good job in Afghanistan. The difference is that Soviets did not negate nominal Afghan independance
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Irish terrorists are not muslim (hopefully) but the story is the same: gangs took over the control over the state.
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And this will happen in Iraq, if the forces back off. There's nothing wrong in granting independance to Afghanistan, Chechenia, Palestine, Iraq, Ireland. But it should be done in another way than saying " have your independance "
and running away before the bomb explodes.
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You know, Indians in India live in even worse conditions than Indian muslims but they do not terrorize the whole country and neighbor countries.
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But they do. They opress Muslims and Christians, forbid
converting to Christianity, rename the cities to make them sound Indian even if they were not Indian at the start
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Remember, the ideology of the Nazi Germany was NOT ENTIRELY wrong and evil but it was worth TOTAL ANNIHILATION. Not the men, ideology.
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But, according to Kidicious' way of thinking, Germany shouldn't be independant.
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And it's also about other religions and dangerous ideologies, but Islam is CURENTLY the must dangerous of them. |
I have mixed feelings about Islam. Very mixed ones. I'm not going to discussed it right now.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
How do You know that the result of granting independance of Chechenia would be an islamic state?
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It seems to be fairly well established that members of the group which attacked this school was at least 25% arabic. I can assure you the arabs weren't fighting for a secular independent Chechnya.
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Their independance was temporarily limited. Russia's not going to give Chechens independance after any time. |
People say that Chechnya was not completely indepenedent, yet they were able to institute Sharia law, including a number of laws that most assuredly were against Russia's constitution, like the death penalty. It sounds to me like they had a lion's share of autonomy. Could you imagine any region of your country getting away with eliminating your nation's constitution?
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Gatekeeper
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United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:24
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Originally posted by Kidicious
No. You have not done your part. The media is crap. If Bush got a sprained ankle it would get more coverage. |
What world are you living in, boy? Everywhere I turn — from the local and national newspapers to local news and national news broadcasts — I've seen the Russian hostage incident covered to one degree or another. It sure as hell isn't being shoved away into some corner. If that isn't enough for you, I've gone to any simple frickin' search engine, typed in "Russia" and "hostages" and, voila!, a lot of returns pop up ... a *good* number of them from mainstream news sources.
What more do you want? Your own personal news service? Then cough up the money, buddy, and subscribe to such a service.
The media is crap, huh? Tell me, boy, what's the media to you? That ranting and raving on cable television and talk radio? Your typical tabloid rag? Because if it is, that's not the news media. That's called infotainment, and there's a helluva difference between the two.
Gatekeeper
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:24
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Originally posted by Gatekeeper
What world are you living in, boy? Everywhere I turn — from the local and national newspapers to local news and national news broadcasts — I've seen the Russian hostage incident covered to one degree or another. It sure as hell isn't being shoved away into some corner. If that isn't enough for you, I've gone to any simple frickin' search engine, typed in "Russia" and "hostages" and, voila!, a lot of returns pop up ... a *good* number of them from mainstream news sources.
What more do you want? Your own personal news service? Then cough up the money, buddy, and subscribe to such a service.
The media is crap, huh? Tell me, boy, what's the media to you? That ranting and raving on cable television and talk radio? Your typical tabloid rag? Because if it is, that's not the news media. That's called infotainment, and there's a helluva difference between the two.
Gatekeeper |
Ok, calling me Kid is cool, but please don't call me Boy.
Is the coverage anywhere near what it was on 9-11. No. No shows are interupted or anything. This is a major world incident. MAJOR!
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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Another 7 persons died in hospitals thus death toll reached 330, 155 among them children. Those were the black days for Russia.
Whenever any d!ckhead would try to make another statement like - "they figh only for freedom and I support them in their struggle", remeber about 1,8 years old kid who is dying now in Moscow's hospital, because he and his parents were held hostages during three days without food, water and almost no fresh air and when terrorists started to slughter them by exploding bombs, people start to escape thier tortures and this kid was shot in the back, like many other kinds and adults. Now this kid is dying, and 330 people already dead and almost half of them were children too.
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Dr Strangelove
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OK, one account says that the terrorists entered the school and had the adults pry up floor boards under which were stashed more weapons, so evidently they did indeed manage to gain entry into the school well in advance and planted weapons.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
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Before I'll start to express my rage over some terrorists lovers who have spreaded their stinking lies in this thread, I've to remind you the flow of events, since I've noticed that you guys don't have a clear picture of what happened.
First of all, Sept 1 is a special day in Russia. It's a holiday we call "the day of knowledge", the first school day. All Russian schools have celebrations dedicated to this holiday. Parents accompany thier kids to the schools, principals make speeches, teachers get flowers from kids, etc.
When such celebration started in Beslan's school number 1, dozens of armed persons appered from truck, started fire that immidiently killed several people and forced children and thier parents into school building. Police oppened fire to attackers, killed one, but two policeman were wounded and couldn't prevent tack over of the building. Terrorists put children into windows to prevent storm and started to install explosives everywhere. That's how it started. FSB shut down cell connection in entire area, to prevent terrorists from communications with their outside command and outside observers. Then they tried to establish a contact with terrorists. Terrorists released one women with a note which said that 50 children will be executed for any dead terrorist, 20 children for any wounded, and whole building will be exploded in case of storm. No clear demands, except- release prisoners who participated in attack to Ingushetiya, no particular list of prisoners. They also demanded some officials and a famous child doctor for negotiations. They do not allow anyone in the building to bring food, water and medicine for hostages. Time after time they shot from assualt rifles and grenade launchers in direction of counter-terrorist forces.
Day two-
An agreement was made to let doctor whom they demanded for negotiations to enter the building, but when he aproaches the building, they start to shot again.
Still no water, food and medicine for hostages. At evening former head of neighbor Ingushetiya enters the building and after some time walk out with 26 hostages. 12 among them are kinds under 3 (actually 11 were under 2), the rest are woman.
Day three-
During first two days, terrorist executed 20 hostages for disobedience. FSB later shown room where they executed hostages. They throw them to wall, shot them and throw thier bodies out of window. FSB shown that wall and window with traces of bullets and blood.
Diring day 3, an agreement was made to let authorities collect those dead bodies. Four people aproached the building in car and started to recover the dead bodies, but terrorists started to shot them and killed two of them. At the same time inside building detonated to bombs. As vitneses said later, one bomb droped and detonated inside sport hall and one women suicide bomber exploded herself. Explosions lead to collapse of the roof and probably create some holes in the walls. Hostages start to run. Terrorists start to shoot at backs of children and adults that running away from thier torturers. Specnaz opens fire on terrorists to cover escaping children. Most of the hostages are almost naked, becuse not only those ****ers didn't allow them to drink, eat, to fullfil their physilogical demands (no WC), they held them in sport hall with density 3 persons per square meter and didn't allow them to open windows. Another day and they would die becuse of lack of fresh air.
Some terrorists wearing civilian closes try to escape the building among the hostages. Gun fight continues. Specnaz enters the building. One women suicide bomber wearing doctor's clothes tries to approach a hospital and explode hereself there, but it's too many soldiers there and she moves to HQ of anti-terrorists forces where she was captured. Specnaz, police and local militia fight escaped terrorists outside the building. Terrorists try to move into location of railraod station, but found themselves blocked.
Now I have to explain why there were so many militias.
Because Ossetia it's Caucasus and every person over 21 there have a gun, becuase of nearby Chechnya and South Ossetia. Some of their arms are legal, some I believe not, but it could be pretty legal to own hunting rifles. Some of those rifles are no less lethal than army rifles. For example, Saiga carabin is based on Kalashnikov assualt rifle, lesser magazine, no burst mode and other differences, but it's still just a modified AK, and it's still damn lethal. So people in Ossetia are pretty well armed. Now image what would father do, if he has a rifle and his wife and children are being held hostages? He would load his rifle and try to save his loved ones. Now imagine a more than a thousand hostages and their relatives outside, armed and absolutely uncontrolled. When your child is been held hostage, you don't give a **** about anything. How police could stop a crowd of armed relatives who tried to save their children? Open fire on them? With such police you don't need terrorists. So relatives joined police and specnaz, thus letting escape for terrorists easier, since terrorist wearing civilian clothes and relative trying to help with the siege, looks pretty much alike. No one thought about using locals as militia. It's just happened. Had storm was planned, I'm pretty sure soldiers would disarm locals and perhaps evacuate them somewhere, to prevent them from interferece. But it wasn't planned. It was too risky to storm the building this time, becuse terrorits were way better prepared and there were kids. Authorities thought they will solve the situation without storm, perhaps by letting terrorists go wherever they wish and follow them. At least thus number of hostages would be much less and then storm could be possible. But it didn't happen. Terrorists just started to slaughter their victims.
So, after several hours of fighting all terrorists were eliminated. FSB shown bodies of 26 terrorists. 10 among them Arabs, one black man, probably from North Africa. Three terrorists were captured alive.
Over 700 hostages have been rescued. Over 400 hastages still in hospitals almost half of them children.
330 died, 155 among them children.
10 Spetcnaz officers KIA some were covering children by their boddies from terrorist's fire, thus saving their lives, in price of their own. 18 Specnaz wounded.
Black days for Russia.
We seek revenge.
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05-09-2004 00:48
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