23-09-2004 21:52									#61
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Loinburger:

It's more then just those two issues though, and in comparing the two you can't ignore the points in which they agree the most.

I'm not saying that there are no differences, just that their two platforms have remarkable similarities.

If the differences between the parties are so few, then what difference does it make if you vote for the communists, then if you vote for the Democrats?

	23-09-2004 21:58									#62
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quote: I haven't checked the Commie platform, but the Democrats are against gay marriage

Surely, if they are so committed to opposing gay marriage, then they will put that on their platform. But I don't see that anywhere.

	23-09-2004 21:59									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If the differences between the parties are so few, then what difference does it make if you vote for the communists, then if you vote for the Democrats?

I might ask the same question regarding the Republicans who really ought to be voting for the American Heritage Party or the Constitution Party.

	23-09-2004 22:04									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Surely, if they are so committed to opposing gay marriage, then they will put that on their platform. But I don't see that anywhere.

If they are so committed to freedom of marriage, why isn't it in their platform?

	23-09-2004 22:30									#65
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Well, of cource the democratic party and the communists are all the same! Just as war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength!

	23-09-2004 22:32									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If stupid were a disease, Ann Coulter would have died decades ago.

Funny how she has a more sucess, more fans, more fame, and a better life than you do.

	23-09-2004 22:55									#67
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I guess stupid is actually a cure. Consarnit.

	23-09-2004 23:09									#68
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Ben - allow me to quote you:

quote: Can you show me one difference between the platform of the communists and the platform of the Democrats?

and

quote: There are many similarities between the Democratic platform and the Communists. Show me where they disagree and how they disagree.

And I did. If you meant "I have a pre-conceived notion as to what the Democrats want vis-a-vis abortion and gay marriage, and it almost exactly corresponds to my pre-conceived notion as to what the Communists want" then you should have said so from the beginning. Just because you are absolutely obsessed with these two topics does not make them even a significant portion of a platform, let alone its near entirety. Additionally, you have not yet supported any of your assertions that the points I quoted from the CPUSA site match those from the Democrat's platform. All you've done is try to backpeddle and qualify your statements with crap like yeah, well what they say their platform is isn't what I think they stand for or it may say this, but I think it really means this. You then blatantly contradict your original point with this statement:

quote: I'm not saying that there are no differences, just that their two platforms have remarkable similarities.

Really, is this the best you can do?

	23-09-2004 23:14									#69
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quote: I might ask the same question regarding the Republicans who really ought to be voting for the American Heritage Party or the Constitution Party.

True, I concede the point.

The people who are communist should be voting for the Democratic party, because they represent the best chance for their ideals to see the light of day.

	23-09-2004 23:15									#70
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quote: If they are so committed to freedom of marriage, why isn't it in their platform?

I don't know. I thought they listed it among their platform, but I was surprised to see that they declined to do so.

	23-09-2004 23:19									#71
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quote: And I did. If you meant "I have a pre-conceived notion as to what the Democrats want vis-a-vis abortion and gay marriage, and it almost exactly corresponds to my pre-conceived notion as to what the Communists want"

1. Abortion is a point of agreement between the Communist party and the Democrats.

This they do list on their party platform, so it can be shown to be a more reliable proof then some of these other issues.

Kerry has come out to say that he believes abortion to be essential to protecting the rights of women, which is the same thing the communists say.

Secondly, regarding marriage, I can show you Republicans who do agree with gay marriage, yet I do not see Democrats who are willing to ban gay marriages.

So is it not reasonable for me to conclude, that lacking evidence to the contrary, they support gay marriage, just like the communists?

	23-09-2004 23:22									#72
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quote: Additionally, you have not yet supported any of your assertions that the points I quoted from the CPUSA site match those from the Democrat's platform.

I have supported them.

Kerry has shown, in his platform that he desires to protect american workers.

How is his protection of workers going to work with NAFTA? It is unclear from his platform that he will choose to defend NAFTA should NAFTA be shown to cost americans jobs.

	23-09-2004 23:24									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi 1. Abortion is a point of agreement between the Communist party and the Democrats. This they do list on their party platform, so it can be shown to be a more reliable proof then some of these other issues. Kerry has come out to say that he believes abortion to be essential to protecting the rights of women, which is the same thing the communists say. Secondly, regarding marriage, I can show you Republicans who do agree with gay marriage, yet I do not see Democrats who are willing to ban gay marriages. So is it not reasonable for me to conclude, that lacking evidence to the contrary, they support gay marriage, just like the communists?

While I'm sure I could find fault with your position here, I'd simply like to ask when and where I claimed the Democrats and Communists disagreed in terms of abortion and/or gay marriage? I pointed out many areas of disagreement which you seemed to originally think didn't exist, and now you want to focus on just these two issues which I never mentioned until you made a big deal out of it - and even then I never claimed they disagreed. Can't you just concede defeat graciously?

	23-09-2004 23:28									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I have supported them. Kerry has shown, in his platform that he desires to protect american workers. How is his protection of workers going to work with NAFTA? It is unclear from his platform that he will choose to defend NAFTA should NAFTA be shown to cost americans jobs.

You haven't supported anything. You referrenced one thing in his platform and concluded that he must be against NAFTA because of that. It's pure speculation on your part and nothing else. And I'm still waiting for you to support all the other things you said the platforms agreed upon. To avoid confusion, I'm NOT talking about abortion and/or gay marriage.

	23-09-2004 23:34									#75
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quote: I pointed out many areas of disagreement

No you didn't.

All you did is list the Communist platform and claim these were areas of disagreement without referencing the communist platform, nor referencing the Democratic platform for comparison.

You did none of that.

quote: now you want to focus on just these two issues which I never mentioned until you made a big deal out of it - and even then I never claimed they disagreed.

Thank you. If you agree that the communist party and the Democratic party agree on the issues of gay marriage and abortion, then I will not mention them again in this thread.

As for the rest of the disagreements, I wanted to start with the most difficult, NAFTA rather than the easier ones out of desire to advance the discussion.

quote: Can't you just concede defeat graciously?

Not until you address my points can I be considered to be defeated. Dismissing them is not the same as addressing them.

	23-09-2004 23:38									#76
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quote: You referrenced one thing in his platform and concluded that he must be against NAFTA because of that.

I am trying to grapple with a conflict that I see in the platform.

Kerry says that he will uphold international agreements, presumeably also referring to NAFTA.

Yet Kerry also says that he wants to keep worker's jobs in America. How is he going to reconcile conflicts between the two?

Secondly, given Kerry's earlier positions on trade, (which are not prominent in the platform), I have to question his commitment to defending NAFTA in the face of foreign competition in Canada.

Finally, you have the point of foreign oil. Is Kerry more committed to the principles of Autarky than he is of mutual agreements?

	23-09-2004 23:58									#77
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I think the essence of communism has always lay in its definition of classes and class struggle. The essence of liberalism historically was the enhancement of individual liberty and rights vis-a-vis the state.

Considering this, today's left are communists and today's right are liberals.

	24-09-2004 00:01									#78
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Ben, most Democrats would oppose NAFTA because they favor the worker over any other interests. The fact that Clinton favored NAFTA showed that Clinton was not really a communist, but was, rather, a traditional liberal.

	24-09-2004 00:44									#79
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Ned:

I agree with you on Clinton.

After all, it was trade liberals that favoured free trade, and the conservatives that favoured tariffs.

So it is odd to see the positions reversed.

	24-09-2004 00:47									#80
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Ann Coulter is an example of what happens when great bitterness is harnessed to great stupidity, but thankfully lacking great will or charisma.

	24-09-2004 00:58									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No you didn't. All you did is list the Communist platform and claim these were areas of disagreement without referencing the communist platform, nor referencing the Democratic platform for comparison. You did none of that.

What are you talking about? Take a look at the CPUSA's platform - I quoted them exactly. I then checked the Democratic platform and looked to see if any of those were to be found. Guess what? None of them were. But you seem to magically think that they are. To which I basically said "go ahead and quote them then".

quote: Thank you. If you agree that the communist party and the Democratic party agree on the issues of gay marriage and abortion, then I will not mention them again in this thread.

Frankly, it doesn't matter if they do or not. That was never the point. The point you originally made was that you didn't believe there was much difference between the two platforms. Now you seem to be changing your whole tune to they agree on abortion and gay marriage (which are apparently the only two issues that matter). I never said they didn't, and frankly if it will stop you from bringing it up again, I'll concede that they agree (although I'm pretty sure they actually don't).

quote: As for the rest of the disagreements, I wanted to start with the most difficult, NAFTA rather than the easier ones out of desire to advance the discussion.

It doesn't matter what you want to start with - you're changing your original point again. There are differences in the platforms, and only your personal interpretation of things makes them the same.

quote: Not until you address my points can I be considered to be defeated. Dismissing them is not the same as addressing them.

The only way you're not defeated is to change the debate. I dismissed your points because they had nothing to do with your original assertion!

	24-09-2004 01:00									#82
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How come most of the american right wing adherents that are more or less frequently quoted or dicussed here at apolyton so often are persons with intolerant views and a total lack of rational thinking? Ann Coulter is surely a prime example of this.

Now, I have some perspective from my own country, where many of the advocaters that I don't agree with still are people that i can, at least on some level, accept. So it's not so that I despise people just for their opinions. Is it something in the water over there?

	24-09-2004 01:09									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I am trying to grapple with a conflict that I see in the platform. Kerry says that he will uphold international agreements, presumeably also referring to NAFTA. Yet Kerry also says that he wants to keep worker's jobs in America. How is he going to reconcile conflicts between the two? Secondly, given Kerry's earlier positions on trade, (which are not prominent in the platform), I have to question his commitment to defending NAFTA in the face of foreign competition in Canada. Finally, you have the point of foreign oil. Is Kerry more committed to the principles of Autarky than he is of mutual agreements?

So what? Grapple away - the platform doesn't say they want to get rid of NAFTA whereas the CPUSA explicity does. I also don't recall Kerry saing he wants to get rid of NAFTA during this campaign. All you're doing is making some huge assumptions. First, that someone is going to conclusively show that NAFTA is creating large scale job loss in the US. Second, that this is the only thing that is causing any job loss (which we already know isn't the case, specifically because this whole debate is really about outsourcing to third world countries). Third, that given the other two, repealing NAFTA is the only possible solution. Any more straws you want to grasp?

	24-09-2004 04:36									#84
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Is "stupid" the only word in your vocabulary Gepap? I'm not angry that you constantly call everyone who disagrees with you stupid, you simply help us. Keep up the good work.

	24-09-2004 05:28									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I agree with her. She's a brilliant woman. someone stop me. there must be some cure for trolling. but seriously, she does have good points. I'm not too familiar with Cronkite- he was before my time. But it's hard to believe he said that thing. Though Ronald Reagon saying that was out of line. My respect for him has dropped.

Yes he did, and I saw the program when he said it.

	24-09-2004 05:51									#86
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Well, Walter Cronkite is my Uncle and I have stated that Ben Kenobi has a nice avatar..(Ann Coulter)BUT

Dun let that hold me back by saying Uncle Walter has been one of the few reliable sources in news delivery in past 50 years

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	24-09-2004 05:57									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll Well, Walter Cronkite is my Uncle and I have stated that Ben Kenobi has a nice avatar..(Ann Coulter)BUT Dun let that hold me back by saying Uncle Walter has been one of the few reliable sources in news delivery in past 50 years

Is this a troll?

	24-09-2004 06:09									#88
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his user name seems to indicate it is a troll.

	24-09-2004 06:48									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Is this a troll?

I am a "Grandpa Troll" and I am also a "Cronkite..like my Uncle Walter"

Saw his name and decided to post

Gramps

	24-09-2004 06:49									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident his user name seems to indicate it is a troll.

my user profile would indicate I am a Cronkite