06-10-2004 06:54									#91
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SO they're keeping Bush's tax cuts for people under $200,000.

How many people are OVER $200,000?

	06-10-2004 06:55									#92
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"Some Iraqis are part of the Coalition. They fight for the Coalition, with the Coalition. They are trained by the Coalition to help achieve the Coalition's ends."

They are not part of the official coalition. Now try to understand this. It is not seen as part of the original coalition, and they are fighting in the coalition organisation, true, but they are not coalition . They can't be part of coalition. This is how it is calculated and has always been, this conflict and others as well. You are being inconsistent.

	06-10-2004 06:55									#93
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quote: Cheney said "when you count Iraqi security forces, the US has sustained only 50% of the casualties." You can't decide not to include Iraqi forces just to disprove Cheney's math.

Cheney originally criticized Edwards' math WRT diplomatic support. You can't decide to include indigenous forces just to disprove Edwards' math.

	06-10-2004 06:55									#94
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They are breaking all sorts of rules. Asked a question on Halibourton, and Cheney says he'll first criticize Edwards on his voting record. And the moderator just happily allows him to use half of his time on that.

	06-10-2004 06:55									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Taking stuff out of context.

Only talking part of the truth.

	06-10-2004 06:57									#96
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What "truth" am I leaving out? The forces of the Allawi gov't are irrelevent in a discussion of diplomatic support for the war.

	06-10-2004 06:57									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: Cheney said "when you count Iraqi security forces, the US has sustained only 50% of the casualties." You can't decide not to include Iraqi forces just to disprove Cheney's math. Cheney originally criticized Edwards' math WRT diplomatic support. You can't decide to include indigenous forces just to disprove Edwards' math.

His aim wasn't to disprove the math, but to show another, more illuminating statistic. If you look at posts like DRose's, you guys are attacking the math itself.

	06-10-2004 06:57									#98
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Eh? Cheney said that Edwards was basically lying. And he wasn't.

	06-10-2004 06:58									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo What "truth" am I leaving out? The forces of the Allawi gov't are irrelevent in a discussion of diplomatic support for the war.

This is the half truth that is true. The rest of the truth is that you must look at the "Iraqification" of the conflict in the overall picture. To simply analyze part of the equation is a half truth.

	06-10-2004 06:59									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Eh? Cheney said that Edwards was basically lying. And he wasn't.

half truth is a lie.

	06-10-2004 07:00									#101
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No, it's a criticism of the Bush admin's attempt at acquiring allies. Allawi's forces are irrelevent to the discussion. It's not a half-truth, it is the truth.

	06-10-2004 07:01									#102
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Edwards is really mumbling his answer about gay marriage.

	06-10-2004 07:02									#103
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Let me say it again: Iraqis are not counted as coalition effort. They are Iraqi effort. Not coalition effort. The only effort that goes from coalition to that is the training effort, and supplying effort. Other than that, they are not in coalition.

OTHERWISE you have all nationalities in coalition. There are people from most countries, even from Finland in IRaq right now. But their countries are not counted as part of coalition because they are not. The status in Iraq is not clear right now, and there is no state effort to be part of coaltiion, because the state is jsu being formed. They are on the side of coalition, but NOT part of the coalition.

NO ONE has used this kind of calculating method before. And there is a reason for it.

	06-10-2004 07:02									#104
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That's it? That's it.

	06-10-2004 07:03									#105
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If the Iraqi soldiers are not part of the coalition, then you can only count the deaths prior to the liberation of Iraq.

Can someone remind me how many Americans died during that period of time?

	06-10-2004 07:04									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo No, it's a criticism of the Bush admin's attempt at acquiring allies. Allawi's forces are irrelevent to the discussion. It's not a half-truth, it is the truth.

I disagree. Iraqi forces are relevant. When discussing a force structure arrangement, how can you possibly leave the indiginous troops out of the discussion?

Bush aquired a lot of allies. Because their militaries are not as mobile as France's were in GW1 is only partially relevant. The GW1 coalition also had forces from boarder countries. The distortion of the facts is multiple on Edward's part.

	06-10-2004 07:06									#107
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Ohh.. these are facts like old europe and new europe. They just never have existed.

Ben Kenobi, this is not a fact or non-fact, this is method of calculating, THIS IS HOW IT IS CALCULATED IN THE WORLD, now if someone wants to bring out new methods of calculating, then there must be an agreement of that, but there is no agreement to that. Iraqi security etc are not part of coalition. They are fighting with coalition.

	06-10-2004 07:06									#108
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Can someone remind me of the casualties taken on by the Iraqi forces (coalition) in Iraq?

	06-10-2004 07:07									#109
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Yeah, but that's because of all the friggin lawsuits, Senator.

	06-10-2004 07:08									#110
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Yeah, but that's because of all the friggin lawsuits, Senator.

	06-10-2004 07:08									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Can someone remind me of the casualties taken on by the Iraqi forces (coalition) in Iraq?

do losses include deserters?

	06-10-2004 07:08									#112
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Guys? The debate has moved on, you know?

	06-10-2004 07:10									#113
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Is "haliburton" Edward's response to everything?

	06-10-2004 07:10									#114
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This is a month old, so it's only counting January to mid-September, and not casualties from last year.

quote: Since January 1 more than 700 Iraqi security force members have been killed, and hundreds of Iraqis seeking to volunteer for the police and military have been killed as well.

From the US Embassy to Iraq site.

	06-10-2004 07:10									#115
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It does seem that way.

	06-10-2004 07:11									#116
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Guys? The debate has moved on, you know?

Thank you.

	06-10-2004 07:11									#117
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quote: Originally posted by germanos do losses include deserters?

Of course not

	06-10-2004 07:11									#118
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This is just like French resistance in WWII. They weren't Allies per se. They were helping the allied forces. Now you can claim 'but iraqis are formally trained'. So? They are HELPING, not BEING. They are their own entity. ****, I do a lot of modelling in my Uni, doing one now. If you say Iraqi forces are not their own entity, I say YOU FAIL THE CLASS and rip my hair off and kill myself .

	06-10-2004 07:12									#119
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quote: I disagree. Iraqi forces are relevant. When discussing a force structure arrangement, how can you possibly leave the indiginous troops out of the discussion?

Because the discussion was the diplomatic support for the enterprise.

quote: Bush aquired a lot of allies.

Many of which contribute basically nothing.

quote: Because their militaries are not as mobile as France's were in GW1 is only partially relevant. The GW1 coalition also had forces from boarder countries. The distortion of the facts is multiple on Edward's part.

The level of our participation in proportion to the world community this time is far larger than in the Gulf War. By any measure. And that's the point Edwards was making.

	06-10-2004 07:12									#120
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erm, the French resistence were allies.