18-12-2004 08:35									#211
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Saw your post.



Let's see what that brings

I guess we could send Eth Calc pre-accepted this turn in any event, as it seems that Soc Psych is the spoiler here. Or do you want us to try and postpone it a turn to get them hooked into us more rigourously?

	18-12-2004 20:10									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I guess we could send Eth Calc pre-accepted this turn in any event, as it seems that Soc Psych is the spoiler here. Or do you want us to try and postpone it a turn to get them hooked into us more rigourously?

Sending EthCalc seems good to me if you want to.

	19-12-2004 03:06									#213
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IT Mart has replied:

quote: Posted by IT Mart in the Embassy There is little time to discuss release of information regarding our technology status, but I understand your concerns. So I will give you the following information: We currently research Social Psych. We posses all needed for IntInt technologies apart from Ethical Calc and Social Psych. Soc Psych is also needed for Doc Loyalty along with Mobility, which we posses already. I simulated our choices for selection of technology in case currently researched is acquired, using the Excell spreadsheet ...Technology choices v.1.07.xls It gave me result with 7 available choices out of 8 all choices. IntInt is going to be available. So I guess everything should go ok. Considering that we research Social Psych, we would not loose lab points. However, I do not recall any such 2 techs solutions/attempts in the past performed by me when playing smax, so I cannot know if the game engine would not act according to the excell spreadsheet simulation. In case something goes very wrong with these choices, though I hope not, there is also some possibility with tech exchanges with Gaians. We might just select what they research, then get it from them, then switch to IntInt - should be rather offered at that time if not offered now. But that would be our part to do it with them if needed. Regarding estimated time of research completion, that would require prediction quite far into the future of our growth and decisions. It's a bit difficult to say now, I would have to spent some more time on it. If your cost of research is around 800, ours is around below 500 now. We may increase science output quite significantly having Soc Psych and Eth Calc - how much, I would have to calculate more precisely. Will tell you when I do it

So it seems like they're pretty confident that Int Int will be offered them, and if not, then they'll select a tech the Gaians have and then get it from the Gaians to allow a switch to Int Int

	19-12-2004 03:31									#214
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So, like I told you, they knew, what they were doing by accepting the deal. And, as I told you, they accept that it is their responsibility to get any other techs, if necessary. Like I said, it's not our problem.

	19-12-2004 05:57									#215
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quote: IT Mart: It gave me result with 7 available choices out of 8 all choices.

Aha! This info allowed me to figure out what the hell was my problem. There seems to be some mistake with the tech choice simulator (read here) (or alternative: I ****ed up something ) which led to misrepresenting the tech choices of the Angels. In any case, now I know what's the problem it will never happen again and I should be able to accurately figure out the Angel tech choices.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 So, like I told you, they knew, what they were doing by accepting the deal. And, as I told you, they accept that it is their responsibility to get any other techs, if necessary. Like I said, it's not our problem.

Edit: I posted this in the Angel embassy:

quote: I have finally figured out what was my problem with the tech choice simulator and I now indeed get the same result as you. I'd like to apologize for all this unnecessary mess I created. I have been informed by our Commander-in-Chief EthCalc and SocPsych will be offered pre-accepted to you this turn as originally planned. It's reassuring to know the Angel Research Department too uses the tech simulator. It once again proves the Angels are a reliable and trustworthy trade partner.

	20-12-2004 21:51									#216
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PM from IT Mart:

quote: Hi, see the Spartan-Angel Embassy. We have a situation, details over there with some analysis of those nasty research offers. M.

Doesn't sound good... Haven't looked at the embassy yet, as I need to go in a few minutes.

	20-12-2004 21:59									#218
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they now need Doc Init

	20-12-2004 22:02									#219
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Well, actually, the Angels have a situation. IntInt didn't show up as a possible tech choice. Now they'll have to get a third technology, to be able to get on with the planned research. For us, this is a small delay, or a possibility to milk them with Doctrine Initiative, which they seem to need, to start researching IntInt. Remember, it was not part of the deal, so if they want it, they should pay.

	20-12-2004 22:04									#220
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One alternative would be to say that we are prepared to wait for them to self-research Doc Init and then change to Int Int - they could always partner with the gaians (to have them also research Doc Init and the first one to get ot sends it to the other who switches to Int Int)

In other words, hold their feet to the fire and just hold to our end of the deal

Alternatively, ask what they'd be willing to pay for us to send Doc Init to them

	20-12-2004 22:22									#221
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How about a Maniac reply to IT Mart along the lines of:

quote: Hmm - so I didn't err after all in my analysis. The Junta is considering what's possible - and permissible. 1> Get Drogue/Method's OK to reload the turn, and this time decline the tech offer until the tech choices situation is clarified and the deal restruck 2> Sparta waits until the Angels research Doc Init and then Int Int 3> Angels and gaians both switch to Doc Init, with the first one getting it sending it to the other who then changes to Int Int and when researched, passes it to Sparta 4> Angels acquire Doc Init from Sparta - for value yet to be determined allowing Angels to switch to Int Int

The considerations in 4) above might include adaptive economics plus some cash (and do we then embargo the Gaians getting Doc Init for a number of years? - after all, the cruiser hull's extra 2 moves is valuable). Or do we give the Angels Doc Init for adapt econ and also sell it to the gaians, knowing that they'll get it anyway thru trade or agreed upon probe?

	20-12-2004 22:32									#222
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In the 4) case, we sell it to both, of course. If we must part with this tech, we should get as much for it, as possible.

We can't really expect the Gaians to follow the 3) plan. They have no deal with us, that would make them do so.

	21-12-2004 01:38									#223
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This is terrible in my opinion... We had a deal with them, and despite our warnings that they might not be able to research IntInt right away they assured us that it would not be a problem and basically pushed the deal through. Now they tell us, after receiving our part of the trade, that they need additional clauses to complete their side of the trade. My gut instinct would be to say that this is not our problem, it is their problem, just give us our tech. At best, this severely damages my impression of the Angels as a reliable trading partner, and at worst I see it as a ploy to get Doc Init from us.

Pragmatically though, I would recommend to go for option 1), I don't think we should be forced to make this decision right away. I don't like 2) since it just seems like a rip-off, and 4) is very tricky since it assumes we can agree on a price. If we can't, what happens then? And like Modo suggests, 3) is also tricky ...

Looking back, we might have added a delay clause where they pay us credits every year they fail to supply us with IntInt, based on a log-growing function perhaps. That way they'd really have incentive to get it to us quickly, and we could simply have said in this case "Tough cookies, not our fault, hand over the credits".

Another reason I don't care for even suggesting 2) is that it will give the Angels some peace of mind. If we have this long term deal with them they know we probably won't go tearing through them with missile rovers (which is bad because we probably won't ).

	21-12-2004 01:56									#224
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I'm pretty much with Snoddasmannen on this, we shouldn't even have to be thinking up solution options, just say "you do what you think is necessary, but give us what you have agreed to give us". We need to renegotiate the trade and replay the turn, go with #1, if they keep acting up.

So, would this be a good time for me to jump in or should Maniac post in the forum as you've proposed?

	21-12-2004 02:17									#225
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To me, this is an opportunity to milk the Angels. Clearly, they expected no trouble, and clearly, they accepted the responsibility. Any solution that we accept without getting all angry and loud, will make them owe us one. Either we cash that debt now, or we keep that possiility for later. Whatever the result, it seems like we come out on top of it.

I agree, that no matter what happens, we should make it clear to the Angels, that they made a big mistake, and that they need to make up for their behaviour. I'm not very angry about it, because their statements don't imply any bad will, and I don't see a reason to get loud about it. I'm sure, it was a mistake. It gives us an advantage over them. Let's use it, of course, and let's make them pay dearly, but let's not make an enemy. Not before we are ready to invade.

	21-12-2004 02:21									#226
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That is true - after all, having the whole thing discarded and renegotiated from scratch would just give away any advantage we might have right now.

	21-12-2004 02:33									#227
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Well, only some advantage would be lost. We'd still have a deal that they agreed to, so we still could sue them. But yes, keeping our part of the deal in-game is definately stronger for us. It gives them no easy way to back out (like a "sorry for your trouble" payment, or things like that).


Personally, I'm against solutions 1), and 3).

If we do 4), we should make them pay dearly, and also sell the tech to Gaia. To make sure they don't resell Doc Init, put an embardgo on it for 20 turns.

If we do 2), they will have to compensate for the delay. We don't care how they do the research. If they can convince Gaia to help - fine. But it's none of our business. Let them worry.

We should consider a slow payment. Either a tech of equal value (military application!) later, or energy credits (a load of). If they want to pay us with cash, let them pay on a per turn basis. Whatever we do, make them understand, that it is our good will to help them out now, and hint to the possibility, that we might want a small service at some point.

Last edited by Modo44 on 21-12-2004 at 02:46

	21-12-2004 08:04									#228
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I have pm'd this to Drogue/Method:

quote: Text of Private Message from Googlie to Drogue and Method Sparta and the Angels have been in diplo negotiaitons re a tech leapfrog based on our understanding of the Rubin techchoice simulator (or whatever its called - it's the excel spreadsheet that predicts what choices will be available for the next tech) Anyway - after we (Sparta) placed 2 techs pre-accepted for the Angels, the choice that we both believed would appear didn't, and might only appear if we send another tech - maybe 2 - to the Angels. Would the Mods allow a replay by the Angels with, this time, them not accepting our techs until we can unscramble how the excel sheet screwed up? I believe that this would be analogous to the "parallel turn" allowance with the AI during dioplomatic exchanges - so long as in the replay the Angels did nothing different from the firast try except for non-accceptance of the offered Sparta techs. What is the Mod's opinion? (This message has also been sent to Drogue/Method)

I have also posted it in the Embassy

	21-12-2004 08:21									#229
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I'm sure that this will bring howls of "not possible" from the Angels, citing all sorts of reasons why they can't replay - popped pods, or whatever (anything not to have to defer getting Eth Calc)

So it then lays the groundwork for us saying:

"Well then, I guess you'll need to research Doc Init and then Int Int in order for you to uphold your side of the deal - when can we expect Int Int under these circumstances?

Might your leapfrogging with the Gaians accelerate this? - after all, they too are benefitting from getting Ethical Calculus well in advance of Sparta getting anything in return, so although Doc Init and Int Int might not be in their beeline, it's only fitting that they should shoulder some of the burden of getting that tech to Sparta."

The Angels will come back and say "Isn't it more efficient for Sparta to send Doc Init to the Angels?"

We can reply: Naw - we can wait for the CDF - we're not ready to take on yang just yet - it's sufficient to have both your agreements not to build the CDF when eventually you get Int Int - and transmit it to us. We can build up our crawler fleet ready for upgrading that way

Alternatively, we could say:

Well, if it is your intention to next research Planetary Economics after Int Int, we could send you Doc Init in exchange for your sending Planetary Economics when you have that. So the restructured deal would be:

Sparta >>> Angels: Social Psych; Ethical Calculus; Doc Initiative and Sparta won't build the Ascetic Virtues

Angels >>> Sparta: Intellectual Integrity; Planetary Economics, and neither the Angels nor the Gaians will build the CDF

	21-12-2004 12:39									#230
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Or, they come and say: "Fine, let's renegotiate". And our lever on them gets smaller, alowing them to try and back out of the deal. Didn't you read what we were talking about here?

EDIT: This is what mart7x5 posted in the embassy. So much for the too cunning plan.

quote: The request is reasonable. Also, I think that I have found the problem I had in my spreadsheet. It's my fault and it is about settings. After Hercules checked his file and posted on our forum what he had, and it was in the agreement with what we got, I rechecked mine and found error in settings, so spreadsheet seems to work ok. Anyway, the solution suggesting that accepting Ethical Calculus first will allow us to research Int Int was right. This is what I got from the spreadsheet after correction. We would have to switch the research in that case loosing some lab points. There is also in this case a new possibility. That would be to discuss if you are interested. It would speed up things a bit, cuase it appears that if we acquire Doc Initiative, we would not have to loose any lab points and be able to switch to Int Int. That would however require a new agreement between our factions and trading Doc Initiative at this point. Meanwhile, I will ask also other members of Data Angels to confirm the prediction I got. Let us see what Drogue or Method will tell.

	21-12-2004 19:25									#231
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I'm not so pessiimistic as you, Modo

I think with all this finagling we might actually come out the winner here, - c.f. Herc's post:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Hercules Mart Asked me to call in and confirm the series of events as described above. We were offered that choice of 4 but which excluded Intel Integ. Indeed as Maniac, I believe raised earlier, if we had received Ethical Calculus only, then in switching research, Intel Integ would have been offered. I also confirm the view that if Doc Ini is traded, as suggested by Mart, then Intel Integ will be offered in the choice of techs. We would offer you a future tech for it, as compensation. Regarding rate of research, when our first wave of NN production kicks in, in a 3/4 years, we will be able to adjust our settings away from the current high psych percentage to labs.

So we'll get a level 4 or 5 tech down the line - could be Planetary Economics or Cyberethics (assuming we are not in Vendetta with the Angels) in exchange for a current level 4 tech. And it'll prolly be on a tech path that we otherwise wouldn't be on (such as one of the Centauri techs, or a pure research tech - prhaps even Fusion)

Kassi can argue the case that a powerful tech such as Doc: Init is worth at least a level 5 equivalent, and if we also assume that they want to send it, too, to the Gaians (and we agree) then it's worth a level 6 such as Fusion, Orbitals or MMI - that is if we don't get there earlier on our own

And it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for the trade to get unscrambled thru a turn replay by the A's either. As we are steering clear of a confrontation with Yang, the CDF isn't currently vital

	21-12-2004 19:28									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Modo I'm sure, it was a mistake.

Just like you were sure a few days ago the Angels knew what they were doing?

quote: Originally posted by Modo So, like I told you, they knew, what they were doing by accepting the deal.

While I’m most likely overexaggerating, personally I cannot 100% exclude the possibility the Angels aren’t deliberately fooling around with us.

Consider the following hypothesis:

The two techs that the Angels and Gaians have wanted from us for a long time are DocFlex and EthCalc. Now they have finally obtained them both. Why should they now still maintain friendly relations with us? The Gaians - the Angels’ closest friends - don’t like us, and they know our homeland is nowhere near theirs. Now they have what they want from us, what’s the danger of breaking relations and not living by their agreement?

For this reason I was opposed to giving SocPsych & EthCalc right away to the Angels, but wait until a few turns before they would finish their research project. To prevent them getting wrong ideas.

Also I don’t understand how Mart7x5 could get the wrong tech choices in the simulator. If everyone else got them right, why not he? Especially if mart7x5 has been using the simulator before, it would be a very big coincidence if now suddenly the simulator starting giving the wrong tech choices for some unknown reason. Me thinks this could be a deliberate ploy to try and get one last tech (DocIni – remember last ACDG ) from us before totally breaking relations.

So just to be on the safe side in case the Angels would be deceiving us, I would be opposed to giving the Angels an important military tech such as Doctrine: Initiative. And only a short while ago the Angels offered us Adaptive Economics. Then there was consensus AdapEcon was pretty worthless at the moment and we weren’t interested in obtaining it. I don’t see why we should now give away such an important tech as DocIni (or even worse, an unspecified “future tech” as Hercules has now suggested) in exchange for a useless tech such as AdapEcon, knowing the Angels are unreliable trade partners.

So if we are to continue to trust the Angels, I would propose that the Angels have to be very open to us and disclose important information so we can know their current situation:

• Mart7x5 should send us the excel file where he concluded what tech choices the Angels could get.
  
• Mart7x5 should send us the simulation game where he supposedly got yet another set of tech choices (see one of his posts in the embassy).
  
• The Angels should send us a screenshot of their F2 lab summary, so we can confirm what tech they are researching, what their tech cost is, how many labs they already have accumulated, and how many labs they annually produce. I asked mart7x5 about this earlier, but he evaded giving an answer: “Regarding estimated time of research completion, that would require prediction quite far into the future of our growth and decisions.” It isn’t that hard to look at your F2 screen and check how many years remaining before you research your next tech…

	21-12-2004 19:33									#233
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Welll, we got our ruling:

quote: PM from Drogue with techtrade ruling I'm afraid I can't allow that. Parallel turns for diplomacy are only allowed with the AI, and only then if trade offers are not accepted. The Rubin techchoice simulator is of course allowed, but it not being perfect, or not working properly, is not a reason to replay a turn. They accepted those techs, and to replay would change that, even if nothing else, which is clearly altering something that has been decided, and whatever the reasons for deciding on that course of action (whether it was a rogue turn, played by someone unauthorised or on the assumption that the simulator was correct) it must stand.

So, Kassi, let's expand the trade into a mini blockbuster, with a futures such as Planetary economics or Cyberethics

(or, Maniac, can you confirm/negate that Int Int would be offered them if we sent Secrets to them (for Adaptive Economics perhaps) - or Optical Computers? (also for AdaptEcon - we'll have Opticals next turn from a Zaksteal)

	21-12-2004 19:40									#234
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If I can trust my originial analysis, which seems to be the case, they should be able to select IntInt if they get another tech. (Personally I'd prefer to give them an as useless tech as possible in exchange for AdapEcon, meaning Optical Computers.)

	21-12-2004 19:45									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Just like you were sure a few days ago the Angels knew what they were doing?

Yes, and I still am. They were sure about their plans, and they accepted, that they were responsible for doing that research. The plans backfired, because of a mistake on their part. This is what I said, and it is not in cotradiction to their actions so far.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac While I’m most likely overexaggerating, personally I cannot 100% exclude the possibility the Angels aren’t deliberately fooling around with us. Consider the following hypothesis: (No need to quote - it's in the post above.)

It's a possibility, I agree. But if that was the case, they would hardly agree to replay the turn, since both techs have been sent to them, don't you think? And they did, without arguing.

	21-12-2004 19:47									#236
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While wielding "the big stick" always feels good, it's only effective if we actually have a big stick to wield.

And in this case, we only have the Invincible that's anywhere near Angels territory.

I see our choices as:

We wait until the Angels deliver Int Int, however long that takes

We facilitate their getting it earlier thru sending/trading a requisite tech that will allow Int Int to appear as a choice. (Presumably they elected to switch to Doc Init when they accepted our 2 techs - would any other selection {such as secrets, Opticals or HEC} have guaranteed Int Int as a next choice?).

As I posted earlier, I don't miind waiting for the tech - after all, all 3 other teams have now promised not to build the CDF. yang doesn't need to, and we can steal int Int from Lal or Zak if they get it first

And we don't care if the Angels lose lab points thru a switch to get back on Int Int track. Or if they need to solicit Gaian help to make it work faster.

So If the excell shows it works, I'd trade Secrets or Oprticals for Adaptive Economics, let them then switch to int Int (if indeed it would come up then as a tech chocie) and we'll get it in due course. Or I'd just sit it out until we eventually get it from them

But I agree with maniac - we don't trade/sell/gift Doc Initiative to them

	21-12-2004 19:51									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 It's a possibility, I agree. But if that was the case, they would hardly agree to replay the turn, since both techs have been sent to them, don't you think? And they did, without arguing.

If they were deceiving us, they could safely claim to us they are willing to replay the turn. After all, if it wasn't a mistake and they deliberately accepted these techs knowing they wouldn't be able to select IntInt, Drogue would be forced to rule a replay is not allowed.

	21-12-2004 19:55									#238
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We need to get the Angels to change techs this year, to minimize their lab point losses

As their time is running out, and as Kassi isn't online, shouild I PM to Herc and IT Mart as well as post in the embassy that we suggest that they send us Adapt Econ pre-accepted and we'll, in turn send next year Optical Computers, and that they should change to that right now - that'll bring up Int Int next year as a choice.

	21-12-2004 19:56									#239
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And maybe say that in compensation for their lost lab points (altho it was their mistake) they're free to get what they can from the Gaians in exchange for Opticals going to them

	21-12-2004 20:12									#240
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Sent as a PM to IT Mart and Hercules, and posted in the Embassy

quote: To: Data Angels: Drogue has refused the replay The Junta is unwilling to trade Doc: Initiative to any faction at this point, especially in light of our recently promulgated Modo Doctrine. We are prepared to wait the requisite number of years - if need be - for your delivery of Intellectual Integrity There may be a faster way. The Angels change research right now to Optical Computers. We will send Opticals this year (2153 for us) in exchange for your sending us Adaptive Economics this year. This then guarantees that Int Int will appear as a choice for the Angels in your 2154 year We recognize that both techs are not particularly useful to either of our factions at this pont in time - however Opticals does open the possibility that the Angels might beat Morgan to Applied Relativity and the Superconductor And in recognition of your lost lab points, we would place no onward trading restrictions on Opticals - that might net another technology or some energy credits from your Gaian partners.