21-12-2004 20:43									#241
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I love the idea of sending Opticals instead. Is Adaptive Economics completely useless? If so why not ask them to send us some credits instead? And why be generous in recognition of lost lab points? I'd place the blame on them.

I'll also put on my tin-foil hat and stand next to Maniac and request those evidence files from the Angels. If for no other reason than the fact that if they were actually able to pull of this triple-steal, it would be such a cool thing

	21-12-2004 21:30									#242
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Yes, Googlie is too nice to them. Their fault - they pay - very simple.


A thing for future reference. It's not our problem, if another team makes a mess (on purpose, or not - who cares). So if they are running out of time, but need some decisions from us, that gives us power over them, and not the other way around. Most of all, that shouldn't make us hurry any more than usual. Sure, we might have lost that one turn in this particular deal, but why allow ourselves to be drawn into a forced negotiation pace? There's no real gain, but we might miss some facts, and nobody will replay turns because of this. I really didn't like how quick we responded here.

	21-12-2004 21:38									#243
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I agree with Snoddasmannen and Modo. We should receive compensation from the Angels. Not the other way around.

Perhaps it's not too late to cancel the PM and edit the embassy message, before the Angels see it?

Edit: Or heck, even if they have the seen the messages, just say we've changed our mind after some further discussion. We aren't the ones who are being unreliable here.

	21-12-2004 21:57									#244
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Like I said before - I think we should put an embargo on whatever additional technology we give/sell to the Angels. And, of course, sell it to the Gaians as well. This is only fitting, and this would be our compensation for the mess they created.

	21-12-2004 22:09									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Yes, Googlie is too nice to them. Their fault - they pay - very simple.

Well, we're not entirely blameless here;

The turn - with Soc Psych and Eth Calc pre-accepted - was sent after Maniac seemed to confirm that the Angels were right in their assumption that Int Int would be a choice. Turn was sent on at 17:15 (PST) on 18 Dec, after Maniac's post at 16:57. When I saw that post I reckoned it was good to go:

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Aha! This info allowed me to figure out what the hell was my problem. There seems to be some mistake with the tech choice simulator (or alternative: I ****ed up something ) which led to misrepresenting the tech choices of the Angels. In any case, now I know what's the problem it will never happen again and I should be able to accurately figure out the Angel tech choices.

So I disagree that I'm being "too nice" - certainly Maniac was swayed by IT Mart's assertion that the Angels would be offered Int Int, and I was swayed by Maniac's above post that seemed to say that the Angels were right

We can try to screw them now all we want, but their fallback position is that they themselves research Doc Init (itself a worthwhile research effort even with the MCC gone) and then Int Int, again essential for Cyberethics/PSA /Fusion - as well as for Planetary Economics and the Ascetic Virtues.

So what we are now trying to do is to accelerate our getting of the CDF. Put too many prohibitions/conditions on the Opticals-AdaptEcon trade and I could forsee them saying to us "fine then, we'll send you Int Int in 2170"

And that'd be okay for us too.

	21-12-2004 22:22									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Like I said before - I think we should put an embargo on whatever additional technology we give/sell to the Angels. And, of course, sell it to the Gaians as well. This is only fitting, and this would be our compensation for the mess they created.

We're not in a mess - they are.

The deal as currently structured is that Sparta sends the Angels Social Psych and Ethical Calculus. We have done that

The Angels owe Sparta Intellectual Integrity. When they deliver, the deal will be complete.

What's now happening is an attempt to speed the delivery to Sparta of the tech we're owed. If we don't want it any faster than the time it takes the Angels to research Doc Init and Int Int, then we should say so.

The Angels have asked for us to send them Doc Init in exchange for a future tech.

We have responded by offering Optical Computers (which we don't yet have - we'll steal it from Zak) in exchange for Adaptive Economics. We can sell this to Lal, perhaps Yang, and who knows, maybe even to the Gaians (but obviously not to Morgan) We start talking about additional cash payments to Sparta (why?- what's the rationale for that?) or onward trade embargoes, and then they'll start insisting on an embargo of onward trading of AdaptEcon, making the whole situation even messier and longer to resolve.

What's the objective here?

To get Int Int as soon as possible so that we can build the CDF and then sit back and move into phase II with the knowledge that our homeland is secure, we rule the waves, and are in a position to bully anyone we want.

There's no "aggrieved party" in this Angels deal. They never did commit to a date by when we'd receive Int Int.

So I'm arguing in favor of let's facilitate this transaction so that we can all get back on our respective tracks towards executing our longer term strategies

	21-12-2004 22:49									#247
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No, they have not explicitly said they would try to get IntInt fast, and give it to us. But, they were implying that. Therefore, we can assume that a delay on their part would be stretching the deal too much. IMO, that's similar to us not explicitly saying we wouldn't undermine their deal with Gaia (EthCalc it was, right?). This is why I feel it is them who are in trouble - we knew they wouldn't give us IntInt right now, but such a long delay was not part of the deal.

Either we stick to the part that says: we shouldn't undermine the Angels' EthCalc trade with Gaia, and we have the right to get some payback for the delay on IntInt. Or we stick to the part that says we can screw the Angels over, and they can delay IntInt. Otherwise we'd be creating double standards that hurt our position.

	21-12-2004 23:14									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie: So I disagree that I'm being "too nice" - certainly Maniac was swayed by IT Mart's assertion that the Angels would be offered Int Int, and I was swayed by Maniac's above post that seemed to say that the Angels were right

So what? That doesn’t change the principle that it should be the Angels who have to check and are responsible if their end of the deal can be fulfilled, not us. They checked wrong, so they are at fault.

quote: We can try to screw them now all we want

How are we screwing them? I’d say we are merely asking for a fair compensation for the damage we’ve suffered: a possible delay in obtaining IntInt, and having to trade a tech we didn’t plan to trade.

quote: We can try to screw them now all we want, but their fallback position is that they themselves research Doc Init (itself a worthwhile research effort even with the MCC gone) and then Int Int, again essential for Cyberethics/PSA /Fusion - as well as for Planetary Economics and the Ascetic Virtues. So what we are now trying to do is to accelerate our getting of the CDF. Put too many prohibitions/conditions on the Opticals-AdaptEcon trade and I could forsee them saying to us "fine then, we'll send you Int Int in 2170"

If they say that they’re simply gonna first research DocIni and only then IntInt, they will be breaking our agreement. After all, we had agreed they would switch to IntInt this turn. Accident or not, fact is they have broken the agreement, and thus a compensation is fair.

quote: What's the objective here? To get Int Int as soon as possible

Indeed. So we should do the minimum minimorum to assure they can switch to IntInt: give them OptComp. Saying they can trade that tech freely to the Gaians, is already doing more than necessary.

quote: There's no "aggrieved party" in this Angels deal. They never did commit to a date by when we'd receive Int Int.

They did say they would switch to IntInt this year.

	21-12-2004 23:17									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie There's no "aggrieved party" in this Angels deal. They never did commit to a date by when we'd receive Int Int.

No unfortunately we didn't force them to commit to a date. But I think we are an aggrieved party anyway, and I will explain why.

We entered a deal with the Angels in which we had an understanding that the Angels would prompty switch research to Int Int and send it on to us when done. They failed to comply with their side of the agreement. Would you agree with my evaluation?

I do not feel that we are responsible for keeping track of their research trees, Maniac was being helpful, not acting as an official for the Angel government. If they say they can do something we either trust them or not. In this case we unfortunately trusted them.

I agree with your position on just getting on with business, and the deal we have suggested is not bad, but I don't like being wronged like this without letting them have at least some attitude.

One option would be to ask them to hold their tech transfer of EthCalc to Gaia until the matter is resolved (ie: the third tech transfer is agreed upon).

quote: Originally posted by Googlie We start talking about additional cash payments to Sparta (why?- what's the rationale for that?)

My suggestion was that rather than Adaptive Economics we receive credits instead. We have previously said that it was a useless tech at the time, is it of any use to us now? I honestly don't know since it isn't in SMAC and I've never played SMAX

	21-12-2004 23:52									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac So what? That doesn’t change the principle that it should be the Angels who have to check and are responsible if their end of the deal can be fulfilled, not us. They checked wrong, so they are at fault. They did say they would switch to IntInt this year.

OK - so lets say that they agree to switch to Opticals - and postulate that they lose 100 labpoints. We say that's their problem 'cos they screwed up. We agree that we send them Opticals, with all sort of prohibitions, and that they send us Adapt Econ plus 100 cash for the inconvenience we claim to have have suffered as a result of getting Int Int later than was never promised.

They send it preaccepted. We open the turn, and accept, then land Mercury and find that for whatever reason we can't get the probe into MonStat to steal the tech. And Yang won't talk to us to sell-trade opticals.

Now we've screwed up. They have to change next turn back to Doc Int (or Secrets or whatever), losing, say 60 labpoints for the further change) We owe them a tech to cover for the lost research opportunity that all this has caused, plus 60 labpoint recompense?

We'd prolly say "oops, it'll have to be next turn when we send you Opticals "

Or to consumate the deal would we feel forced to techsteal from Yang, risking vendetta, with a 50:50 chance of getting Opticals (the other 50 being Polysoft)?

I doubt it.

I'm just saying that I don't think it's a black and white "They're trying to screw us" situation. I give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they erred in interpreting the SS (after all, I'm finding it hard and I've worked with excel for 15 years)

But unlike the ethcal calc to the gaians situation I'm not so rigid in my position. I'll bow out of further discussion on this one - after all - y'all know my position - and let the rump of the Junta decide what action to take

	22-12-2004 00:28									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'm just saying that I don't think it's a black and white "They're trying to screw us" situation. I give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they erred in interpreting the SS (after all, I'm finding it hard and I've worked with excel for 15 years)

Hey, neither do I. But I still think it's fair to count them guilty of the possible delay of IntInt. Your proposal, as I understand it, was based on even positions of both parties in the curren situation. It assumed we would just add a simple tech trade ontop of the deal. But the Angels are at a disadvantage now, because of the mistake they made. I find we should use it.

Possible solutions, as I see them (rephrased, and clarified, from my previous posts):

1) If we give them a tech (whatever that is), we should require a tech in exchange, plus some compensation, because of semi-forcing us to do the trade. If they need to lose lab points to make sure they can research IntInt, we can count those as our compensation. If they don't lose lab points, we should get cash. Whatever happens with those lab points, they should not be allowed to trade that tech around - that's the second part of our compensation.

2) If they want to keep researching DocInt, without trading, we should be entitled to compensation for the delay on IntInt. This can be a future tech, or cash. Preferably cash, and preferably a lot.

	22-12-2004 04:22									#252
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quote: But I still think it's fair to count them guilty of the possible delay of IntInt

In theory that sounds reasonable - from a Spartan's perspective

quote: But the Angels are at a disadvantage now, because of the mistake they made

But they have Social Psych and Ethical Calculus. We don't have Intellectual Integrity yet.

We're the ones at a disadvantage.

quote: If we give them a tech (whatever that is), we should require a tech in exchange, plus some compensation

Why the "plus some compensation"? We're the ones who want Int Int earlier than the Angels can deliver on their own.

quote: If they want to keep researching DocInt, without trading, we should be entitled to compensation for the delay

What delay? To devil's advocate for a moment, they were going to change to Int Int if they could, then set their sliders at 90% economy and 10% psych with zero labs and deliver Int Int to us in 2201. We get it now in 2171. What delay?

OK - I've said my piece. I'll accept the decision of the Junta (after all, that's what a democracy game is all about)

	22-12-2004 06:53									#253
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Replay request denied.

	22-12-2004 07:00									#254
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Kassiopeia:

Are you now going to pick up the diplomacy responsibility again?

Where the Sparta-Angels are at right now is my latest offer tabled to them of unfettered Optical Computers in exchange for Adaptive Economics. That = presumably - would necessitate the Angels switching in mid-stream and losing some accumulated lab points.

The ball is in their court right now

	22-12-2004 12:13									#255
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They have replied in the Embassy:

1) - from Hercules:

quote: This is an excellent way out of our situation and we would have recommended it to our fellow Datajacks. Unfortunately Optical Computers is not a tech choice we can research at this time. We can't switch to it. As Mart indicated earlier we were offered: Doc:Ini Ecol Eng SotHB Non Linear We could only switch to one of the other three techs. So unless you have one of the other 3 techs you would be willing to trade to us in order that we could switch to Intel Integ, we can't progress. But both of us would need to be sure that we could switch to Intel Integ at that point. Otherwise it will be the longer route. yours Infotrader Hercules PS. We are investigating with the Gaians if they have acquired, recently any of these techs.

2) Followed by one from IT Mart

quote: Lt. Col. Googlie, There is also another way, which the Spartan Federation might consider in agreement with Modo Doctrine Spartan Federation will trade Doc: Initiative under the following embargo required from Data Angels: - Do not trade this technology for indicated number of turns, - Do not use this technology for indicated number of turns. As not using it I understand not designing any units with it, what would not include cases when we might receive some ships in the future, when for example some AI gets them. - Do not attempt to find "ways around" like allowing others to probe us for this technology. Would Spartan Federation be interested in such arrangement? IT Mart

Maniac - I believe that you tested whether Secrets would work and found it would? Are you able to confirm that they can't change to Opticals right now? And if we sent them opticals, woulfd they then be able to change to Int Int?

If not Opticals, then Secrets would be my preference, as the most inoccuous - and least useful - of the 4 techs they say they would be given the choice of (excpet that it leads to Neural Grafting and Bioenhancement centers as well as the NA)

Anyway - as I said earlier, I prolly need to recuse myself from any decision as I seem to be at odds with the rest of the Junta in this matter.

	22-12-2004 12:42									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie They have replied in the Embassy: 1) - from Hercules: As Mart indicated earlier we were offered: Doc:Ini Ecol Eng SotHB Non Linear

Pretty cute, we have all of these techs
But I agree with you Googlie, let's suggest Secrets. I don't think we should give them Doc Init even under the conditions they suggest, and perhaps we could cite paranoia in the Junta as the reason for this.

I've looked up Adapt Econ a bit, and it seems like a junk tech of no use to us. Why not suggest a sum of credits instead? As for additional compensation for them breaking their side of the agreement (as I previously explained my belief that they have), that could be part of the credit sum. Does 70 ec sound reasonable?

quote: Anyway - as I said earlier, I prolly need to recuse myself from any decision as I seem to be at odds with the rest of the Junta in this matter.

*looks up recuse*
Ah, no I don't think you should "disqualify or seek to disqualify from participation in a decision on grounds such as prejudice or personal involvement" yourself from the decision process at all. Like you said, this is a democracy game. I for one really value your input, even though I happened not to agree with your conclusion last time.

	22-12-2004 13:16									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Pretty cute, we have all of these techs But I agree with you Googlie, let's suggest Secrets. I don't think we should give them Doc Init even under the conditions they suggest, and perhaps we could cite paranoia in the Junta as the reason for this.

Hey, we are being paranoid here. And for good reason, I think.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I've looked up Adapt Econ a bit, and it seems like a junk tech of no use to us. Why not suggest a sum of credits instead? As for additional compensation for them breaking their side of the agreement (as I previously explained my belief that they have), that could be part of the credit sum. Does 70 ec sound reasonable?

If they can pay, you mean. And if they want to.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen *looks up recuse* Ah, no I don't think you should "disqualify or seek to disqualify from participation in a decision on grounds such as prejudice or personal involvement" yourself from the decision process at all. Like you said, this is a democracy game. I for one really value your input, even though I happened not to agree with your conclusion last time.

I feel the same here. We decide together, and all voices are important, especially those that don't agree with the majority. We need different points of view.

	22-12-2004 15:26									#258
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Quickly checking the forum between two lessons, and a quick comment: OptComp WILL enable them to select IntInt after switching research.

More explanation in a few hours.

	22-12-2004 18:08									#259
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Posted this in the embassy. It includes the answer to the OptComp matter.

quote: Lt-Col Maniac here. This isn't an officially sanctioned message, but as I assume you need to pass on your turn in the near future, I thought I'd give you an update on some discussions within the Junta. First, I've just noticed something in Googlie's latest message I hadn't noticed before. "The Angels change research right now to Optical Computers. We will send Opticals this year (2153 for us) in exchange for your sending us Adaptive Economics this year. This then guarantees that Int Int will appear as a choice for the Angels in your 2154 year" If you'd change research right now you'd be indeed unable to select Optical Computers. This problem doesn't exist however if you switch research next year. The only purpose of giving you Optical Computers is to give all techs an extra +1 in the mod3 roulette, meaning IntInt will switch from 0 to 1. So next year, after having accepted OptComp which we would need to put pre-accepted in the diplobox, you should be able to switch research and directly select Intellectual Integrity. As compensation for OptComp we would ask you to put Adaptive Economics pre-accepted in the diplobox this turn. OptComp is pretty useless, but AdapEcon as well, so I guess this is a pretty even deal. Note though there are voices within the Junta who would prefer to see some credits instead of AdapEcon in exchange for OptComp. May we therefore ask how many credits you could pay for us providing you a tech? Perhaps an extension of your turntime limit might be preferable so we can discuss this issue some more? As a last request from some Junta members, could we ask not to execute a tech transfer of EthCalc to Gaia until this matter is resolved, and you have confirmed that you have switched to IntInt, and thus can fulfill your side of the deal?

quote: Originally posted by Googlie OK - so lets say that they agree to switch to Opticals - and postulate that they lose 100 labpoints. We say that's their problem 'cos they screwed up. We agree that we send them Opticals, with all sort of prohibitions, and that they send us Adapt Econ plus 100 cash for the inconvenience we claim to have have suffered as a result of getting Int Int later than was never promised. They send it preaccepted. We open the turn, and accept, then land Mercury and find that for whatever reason we can't get the probe into MonStat to steal the tech. And Yang won't talk to us to sell-trade opticals. Now we've screwed up. They have to change next turn back to Doc Int (or Secrets or whatever), losing, say 60 labpoints for the further change) We owe them a tech to cover for the lost research opportunity that all this has caused, plus 60 labpoint recompense? We'd prolly say "oops, it'll have to be next turn when we send you Opticals " Or to consumate the deal would we feel forced to techsteal from Yang, risking vendetta, with a 50:50 chance of getting Opticals (the other 50 being Polysoft)?

If we were unable to steal OptComp, we could always give them Secrets after all. I guess the Angels shouldn't have that much trouble with it, as it's a more valuable tech.

	22-12-2004 19:18									#260
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Soo... the compensation won't get mentioned? Or do we assume, that the lost lab points are the only compensation here?

EDIT: Answer from the Angels:

quote: Yes, it is indeed the solution. Regarding energy credits, how much in your view Optical Computers would be worth at this point of the game? We have really little time, if the extension will not be granted, I haven't asked for it yet, though it is late now. I hope we might come to an agreement soon. Maybe the extension is not needed. I can put Adaptive Economics pre-accepted now, and in case you decide to accept it, you will do it. In the other case, you will not accept it and we will transfer energy to you next turn, 2154, when we both agree on the size of the transfer. We are discussing energy transfer right now, though I do not know if enough faction members will come on time - around 30 minutes now. Regarding the last request - yes we will not transfer Ethical Calculus till this matter is resolved. IT Mart

	22-12-2004 20:17									#261
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It certainly looks like the whole snafu was an honest mistake and not some deep-seated conspiracy.

I've no problem accepting AdaptEcon. Altho I can't see us building many Thermocline Transducers, at some point it will be a blocking tech that'd need to be bought or stolen for us to progress, so might as well have it now (it's not as though we're micromanaging our techcosts and labpoints the way Morgan is).

Who knows - it might be a useful bargaining chip for a trade with Lal or Yang

	22-12-2004 21:35									#262
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We could base our requist on the present negotiations with Morgan, regarding the sale of Ecol Eng for credits. We need cash for upgrades, that's what makes low-priority technology less valuable. If we get that 400 credits from Morgan, I think we can use Adapt Econ after all.

	22-12-2004 22:06									#263
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Looks like they'd rather pay by tech than by credits:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by IT Mart Spartan-Angel Embassy, MY 2153 To Spartan Federation, We had a discussion regarding transfer of energy credits for Optical Computers. However, we would prefer to exchange it for Adaptive Economics as it was initially proposed. We are presently in urgent need of energy in order to increase our research output. Our present energy income is not large and reserves not meeting all requirements. The Adaptive Economics has been offered for transfer to Spartan Federation on the pre-accepted basis in case you agree to follow this way. IT Mart

As y'all know, I have no problem in accepting AdaptEcon in exchange for Opticals to close this deal

G.

	22-12-2004 23:25									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Looks like they'd rather pay by tech than by credits: As y'all know, I have no problem in accepting AdaptEcon in exchange for Opticals to close this deal G.

Ok fine, works for me

	23-12-2004 03:01									#265
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Fine by me... so do we have a consensus so I can post a reply and actually do something?

	23-12-2004 03:23									#266
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Con-what?

It's fine with me.

	23-12-2004 08:43									#267
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Okay, since we're fishing the credits out of Morgan's hide, I've accepted the Angel proposal.

	23-12-2004 18:49									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Soo... the compensation won't get mentioned? Or do we assume, that the lost lab points are the only compensation here?

Sorry. IIRC I hadn't read an officially supported proposal for a possible compensation (though I admit due to being tired I had only quickly browsed through the posts before writing a message based on them) , and since the Angels turnplaying time was running out and no other Spartan seemed online IIRC, there wasn't time to further discuss what we could officially ask. I did include a request to be paid by credits (as Snoddasmannen suggested), but that option wasn't pursued I see due to Angel lack of credits.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Who knows - it might be a useful bargaining chip for a trade with Lal or Yang

Who knows we could trade PolySoft or Superconductor with Yang => A bigger chance we get a new tech when we cash in the artifact.

I'm wondering though, is contacting Lal safe? As a years-long SMAC expert, how many times do you think we can contact Lal before he gets pissed off at us Fundies and breaks pact?

quote: Originally posted by Googlie It certainly looks like the whole snafu was an honest mistake and not some deep-seated conspiracy.

Yeah I tend to think so too.
After some further toying around with the tech choice simulator to see what results I get, I think mart7x5 just forgot to set the setting correct for the specific Angel situation, and only added their 16 techs to see what choices they would get. (see attached pic)

I still think though we did the right thing by not giving them DocIni. As a general rule I think it's never good to have a faction owe you more than one tech, certainly if that faction is a relatively slow researcher, as I assume the Angels currently are.

	23-12-2004 19:23									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I'm wondering though, is contacting Lal safe? As a years-long SMAC expert, how many times do you think we can contact Lal before he gets pissed off at us Fundies and breaks pact?

He has nothing to offer us right now - I'm proposing to wait until he gets SFF before another contact.

(And after getting Opticals from Zak, that longstrider will relocate back to Argos, from whence I suggest he has one last Zak infiltration (to get the Uni maps) then after another relocation to Argos lopes down to lalaland to infiltrate Lal - we'll lose current infiltration data when lal eventually does break pactwith us

quote: I still think though we did the right thing by not giving them DocIni. As a general rule I think it's never good to have a faction owe you more than one tech, certainly if that faction is a relatively slow researcher, as I assume the Angels currently are.

Right - they've said that they need their credits to go on a Network Node building binge (after all, for them it's drone control as well, having the VW)

And the longer we're the only faction with Doc Init, the longer we'll have that 2 mp advantage with our cruisers - podpopping opportunities where we have that 8-tile range. In fact, I'd build that (1)-2t-6 cruiser (the Enterprise) at AU but switch places eventually with the Invincible and have the Enterprise ruthlessly pop any seapods down by Angels and Gaian waters